Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This whole system should be removed from AGS ,bar a backround and criminal check they should have no further part to play in this as it clearly obvious they cant handle it,are uttterly anti gun and paranoid about civillians owning anything more dangerous than a super soaker.Not to mind that they area political arm of the State,which NO police force should be either.
A competant civillian admin with knowledgeable people an efficent computor filing system ,clear and unambigious rules as to what you need to own a firearm of any particular type and you fulfilling the conditions should be under law an automatic SHALL ISSUE,isnt too much to ask for is it??

Best post iv read in a long long time.AGS should have no imput apart from the background check and security check in my opinion.They have proven themselves anti-gun, incompetent and untrustworthy letting personel opinions get in the way and regularly abuse their discretionary powers.
I am also not anti AGS before that is flung at me as the vast majority are hard working and dealing with a lack of funding and resources ,however management level AGS is rife with corruption from making decisions simply so their career wont get jeprodised or using their discretionary powers to further their own anti-gun opinions.Ags have shown themselves unfit for dealing with firearms licencing and not only should we be calling on our TDs about these guidlines and review but I believe we should be going the step further demanding that AGS is taken out of the loop except for the parts above mentioned as the have proven themselves time and time again unable to do the job

323 wrote: »

+1 as to Grizzly 45's post.

Far as I remember was there not talk about reducing AGS involvement in firearms licensing during the consultations the last time round 5/6 years ago?

.

I belive a Superintendant actually suggested this at the beginning of the year in an article in the Indo...Which led to much huff and puffing in the editorial of the usual,"Blood on the streets,soon be like America ,Gardai doing a great job on this." Can anyone find it bechance?

Why not use a Solicitor or Barrister as our public face? Preferably one familiar with the shenanigans of recent years. I've done the media training with a well known Irish company and it was good as far as it goes. But we are dealing with a legislation-based procedure so intimate knowledge of the law, precedents, natural justice etc is required.
I have respect for the various shooters who come forward and give their time to represent their particular corner of shooting sports as a whole. To use medical parlance, we need an eminent consultant working on this instead of an enthusiastic first aider.

I suspect removing AGS from the loop will be a bridge too far for us at this time- it would need legislative change and setting up an alternative admin system. What we need is sufficient pressure on the Minister & Commissioner to generate an internal memo that approximates to 'Lads, any more shag acting around with gun owners and I will kick you in the nuts'. I suspect a similiar memo went out about penalty points after revelations from whistle blowers.

I've had a sub 'lost' in the last few days- I don't think it's malice, I think it's incompetence plain & simple. But I sympathise with those who have been exposed to malicious behaviour and in some cases malicious barely describes it.

Are there any members of AGS here? Surely with a force the size of AGS, there are some firearms owners who are directly affected by these new proposals?

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, because solicitors and barristers are well-known as being the most loved and trusted and respected members of Irish society by most voters.

Well, Irish voters give solicitors & barristers loads of 1st preferences at general elections.....so someone trusts & respects them..I daresay if you ever find yourself in a courtroom you will too!
I wouldn't care whether he/she was loved or otherwise. I would want someone with the technical knowledge and intimate knowledge of years of BS to take on a Minister or senior Garda in a media debate and argue our case in a dispassionate way.
I should point out I am not part of the legal profession, nor have I ever engaged a solicitor on a gun related issue. I know some shooters who have and they were very pleased with their advocates.

hurlsey wrote: »

Are there any members of AGS here? Surely with a force the size of AGS, there are some firearms owners who are directly affected by these new proposals?

That would involve considerable risk to the garda in question I would think. Could be tantamount to career suicide. I could be wrong but I can't see anyone taking it on

yubabill1 wrote: »

I would be happy if during this consultation, shooting organisations kept in mind the mores and manners used in the courtroom to good effect wrt firearms to date.

P.S. I will be emailing my local TD's after tomorrow night's meet, but I think we will need more than an email blizzard to beat this.

And let's not forget the people who had the balls to engage the solicitors and barristers and put them in the courtroom.

3 generic email responses received from TD's so far...

http://www.sportscoalition.org/

Date:



Dear Senator XXXXX,
Or
Dear Mr/Ms XXXXX TD,

By now you have received information from Mr Des Crofton, National Director of the NARGC and spokesperson for the Sports Coalition which represents most shooting interests in the state. Therefore, you should not be surprised that as a shooting person I am very angry with Fine Gael and Labour. The sports shooters of this country have been grossly wronged over a long period of time by the Gardai wilfully subverting the law in relation to the firearms licensing system at significant cost to the taxpayer of which I am one. But you know this already because you received a full briefing from Mr Crofton earlier in the year prior to his recent correspondence.

The facts are that the recommendations of the joint Garda Department of Justice review of firearms is poisoned, outrageously selective in its quoted references and is nothing more than a schedule of decisions which have already been taken. Copy correspondence from last August to the Minister makes that clear as does the row back on consultation. Consultation which is intended not to be meaningful is not consultation at all while an invitation to make submissions set against that background is the clearest indication that none of the people involved on the Department side have the courage to face Mr Crofton having been caught out in their dishonest little scheme. The Minister and Fine Gael with their Labour colleagues have much to answer.

There will be a briefing day in Buswells Hotel, Molesworth Street in Dublin next Thursday, November 20th, but while you should be there, I do not expect many or any Government TD’s to turn up because you couldn’t ever justify what is now happening to shooting people. The joint Garda/Department of Justice proposals are nothing more than a charter to legitimise the further abuse of sports shooters.

I have had all the sympathy I can handle from Fine Gael and Labour TD’s and none of it is of any use to me. What I want is your vote against the passage of these recommendations when they eventually make it into a Bill. Nothing less than this is required. I do not want parroted letters from the Minister repeating the message in her press release accompanying the report so please refrain from sending any such to me. If any of what is proposed gets enacted there will be no votes for Fine Gael or Labour in my house, rest assured of that and I will do all that I can to persuade a good deal of my friends to do likewise. Fine Gael and Labour have now become synonymous with U turns, shams, and lacking any morality at all. There is truly no accountability anymore and your party has brought this to a fine art.

I will have my say on ballot day.

Yours faithfully,

XXXXXXXX

Yeah "excellant" letter

Let me paraphase

Dear TD or Senator, we like your help to combat "Gardai wilfully subverting the law in relation to the firearms licensing system at significant cost to the taxpayer " ( An issue Im not aware has ever gone to a legal judgement)

I like you to help us defeat this bill but by the way " Fine Gael and Labour have now become synonymous with U turns, shams, and lacking any morality at all"

first on, that a sure way to influence friends and impress enemies.

Its this type of idiot style protesting that just gets us ignored. This is not the IW issue. This is an issue where there is little sympathy or understanding amongst the public and politicians. Written verbiage just makes it worse

LB6 wrote: »

not mine lads - came/suggested by the nargc/nasrpc/ and all the others in the sport coalition

check out the link!

Ah I know, I saw the link, wasn't an attack on you at all LB6

Sparks wrote: »

I can think of faster ways to turn a Minister against us than writing threatening stuff like that, but not without working at it.

Seriously, if this is the kind of thing that's being done "on our behalf", we're hosed before we start because one side's playing checkers while the other is playing chess.

That's what I was angling at in my previous post.

Still, we might not like other people's methods, we are stronger together, even if only temporarily together.

We don't have to like each other to co-operate - I mean, Russia and the West got together for '39-'45 or so and achieved an objective before the Cold War.

I have a feeling it's time to put differences aside while we have bigger fish to fry.

Let's concentrate on getting organised - if you want to send an email, then send one:

but outline your concerns succinctly (they have other mail to read and the short-and-to-the-point messages have a better chance of getting fully read)

keep it simple

keep it honest

don't take cheap shots.

but outline your concerns succinctly (they have other mail to read and the short-and-to-the-point messages have a better chance of getting fully read)

keep it simple

keep it honest

don't take cheap shots.

Absolutely, thats what I did in my email to my TDs's. I was respectful, but outlined my case and asked them ,as my TDs to represent my view to Gov.

nothing is gained by denigrating the Gardai or TDs or the political system as a whole.

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah.

Forgive me if I don't want to take letter-writing advice from the authors of this kind of thing from back in August when all this hadn't yet been released:


I can think of faster ways to turn a Minister against us than writing threatening stuff like that, but not without working at it.

Seriously, if this is the kind of thing that's being done "on our behalf", we're hosed before we start because one side's playing checkers while the other is playing chess.

AHEM...any chance of the FULL letter being published ??Not the redacted version with two paragraphs missing?? Blank out names by all means,but at least show the reasons why the guy is saying this..

.On other thoughts...
Anyone here a FACEBOOK/Twitter head??? It might be a plan too to get accounts up and running on both of these medias?

Just in from meeting one local TD from the opposition parties...They are already getting a good few emails in their in boxes about this and are wondering whats going on on a weekend about this issue.Told him this is just the beginning of it and it will increase to a torrent in the next few weeks.