A vote for Labour is a vote for Abortion - Iona Institute

RobbieTheRobber · 11-02-2011 3:03pm

Brenireland wrote: »

Yes,& sadly this is what brings down our state & Irish Legalitys,their are no moral grounds which their should always be,Ok the state has made mistakes & so has the church and some big ones.

However the church has some morals.

Bren I dont know if i need to point out that the Catholic church in this country has brought about great shame upon itself and this nation by the acts carried out by its members of moral standing! :rolleyes:

Min · 11-02-2011 3:03pm

Lockstep wrote: »

yes, and they render unto Caeser what is Caeser's, keeping an arms length from government.
Catholics can't dictate the moral values of the entire nation any more so than Protestants or Muslims can.

Are you *honestly* equating the 1000 people leaving every week with the last time when Labour was in government (it was a Labour finance minister who oversaw the creation of 1000 jobs a week/the 12.5% corproation tax) FF took over in 1997 and turned the Celtic Tiger into destruction.

Labour/Fine Gael both support renegotations of the IMF/ECB deal. FF do not, and agreed to it.

What about Labour in the 1980's when people were leaving?

The upturn had started in the early 1990's, the economy grew at 4.3% in 1990 when it was FF and the PDs in power. 4.1% in 1991.
It is a myth that things started to improve because Labour were in government.

The banks lending too freely and the regulator sleeping on the job along with the ECB which never said stop led to a property bubble, it goes to show that keeping interest rates down to suit Germany and France to encourage growth also led to cheap money here which was the last thing needed.
I support the Euro, however it is possible that we would not have suffered as much if we had our own currency and much higher interest rates which would have curbed inflation and have made borrowing less attractive.

No party - not even Labour said stop during the boom.

Brenireland · 11-02-2011 3:04pm

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Bren avoidance of my question is not an answer!
I am pro abortion and pro euthanasia

Am i a murderer?

Here is some help though
.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/murder

IF labour brought in a referendum on abortion and it passed, what legal status would that have?

Abortion/Euthanasia=Murder.

Supporters of Abortion/Euthanasia support murder.

Legal status?,well it would legalise murder wouldn't it?,It would Make the Irish Republic a cowardly Nation.

11-02-2011 3:06pm

Brenireland wrote: »

Look the word murder up on a dictionary/And look up the word abortion=Answer.

Why don't you do it and post your conclusions? While you're at it, look up the definitions of child, life, unborn, foetus, and all the other terms which need to be understood to even remotely begin to comprehend the question at hand.

And do you understand what the X case actually meant? It established the right of Irish women to an abortion if a pregnant woman's life was at risk because of pregnancy. Or are you supporting "murdering" the woman as well as the baby?

Brenireland · 11-02-2011 3:08pm

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Bren I dont know if i need to point out that the Catholic church in this country has brought about great shame upon itself and this nation by the acts carried out by its members of moral standing! :rolleyes:

Yes,however what the church done wrong,many areas in Irish society have also done wrong!,It is not just the church who stand alone in such wrong doings/and the wrong doings of the minority of the corrupt who got into the church,corruption & wrong doing is everywhere.

"let he who has not sinned throw the first stone",If this was the case no stone would ever be thrown.

Morag · 11-02-2011 3:09pm

Hey Min any chance you can answer my question, please.

Sharrow wrote: »

So Min which one consubstantiation or transubstantiation?

RobbieTheRobber · 11-02-2011 3:10pm

Brenireland wrote: »

Abortion/Euthanasia=Murder.

Perhaps in Ireland at present both would, constitute murder if carried out.
If I went to the netherlands though they would not be considered such.

Brenireland wrote: »

Supporters of Abortion/Euthanasia support murder.

Supporting a believe does not mean any such thing, i am pro choice i do not condone murder which is an illegal act.

Brenireland wrote: »

Legal status?,well it would legalise murder wouldn't it?,It would Make the Irish Republic a cowardly Nation.

No more cowardly than the Catholic hierarchy, which has overseen many dirty deeds in its time, eh!

Skrynesaver · 11-02-2011 3:11pm

As pointed out above the X-Case provides for the right to life of the mother over that of her foetus, a recent cartoon by Jen Sorensen may help to illustrate the point

Min · 11-02-2011 3:11pm

This is from thejournal.ie

The Labour manifesto also commits the party to holding a constitutional referendum on same-sex marriage, and for a broader review of the constitution as a whole.

The broader view of the constitution could makes things that seem implausible now a reality.

http://www.thejournal.ie/gilmore-calls-for-ireland-to-reject-conservatism-of-past-2011-02/

Gilmore says Ireland must reject conservatism.

The labour party feels constrained by the constitution - with the current constitution they cannot bring in same sex marriage, they cannot bring in abortion on demand.
At the moment their policy on abortion can only go as far as the Supreme allowed which is based on the constitution, a new constitution could open up doors for abortion on demand which is what some people in the Labour want.

Zubeneschamali · 11-02-2011 3:13pm

Brenireland wrote: »

Legal status?,well it would legalise murder wouldn't it?

It's already legal: the Constitution is the highest law of the land, and it recognizes and protects the equal right to life of the mother along with her unborn child. This means abortion is legal where the life of the mother is at risk.

Brenireland · 11-02-2011 3:13pm

28064212 wrote: »

Why don't you do it and post your conclusions? While you're at it, look up the definitions of child, life, unborn, foetus, and all the other terms which need to be understood to even remotely begin to comprehend the question at hand.

And do you understand what the X case actually meant? It established the right of Irish women to an abortion if a pregnant woman's life was at risk because of pregnancy. Or are you supporting "murdering" the woman as well as the baby?

why do these people have/or decide to have children if their health does not allow for it?,why don't people considering having a child look for advice from the Health Authorities before they decide,rather than have a child & then seek advice.

No matter what,the life of the unborn,who have no say on the matter,they should be number one priority in such unfortunate situations.

Min · 11-02-2011 3:13pm

Sharrow wrote: »

Hey Min any chance you can answer my question, please.

Transubstantiation.

There is a different between different Christian groups but it does not prevent marriage in a Christian church.

Zubeneschamali · 11-02-2011 3:16pm

Brenireland wrote: »

why do these people have/or decide to have children if their health does not allow for it?

Maybe because the Catholic Hierarchy tells them artificial contraception is always wrong?

RobbieTheRobber · 11-02-2011 3:16pm

Brenireland wrote: »

Yes,however what the church done wrong,many areas in Irish society have also done wrong!,It is not just the church who stand alone in such wrong doings/and the wrong doings of the minority of the corrupt who got into the church,corruption & wrong doing is everywhere.

What?

You pointed out the church had moral standing, yet when they abuse that power, you then happily wipe their slate clean because others have done bad things too

Brenireland wrote: »

"let he who has not sinned throw the first stone",If this was the case no stone would ever be thrown.

Please dont quote some old gibberish at me, we are not taking about entrance to the land of clouds and a 100 virgins.
We are taking about a law being passed and agreed by the majority of people in the nation.

Min · 11-02-2011 3:17pm

Skrynesaver wrote: »

@Min
I married in a civil ceremony, in the eyes of the Catholic church my wife and I are not married and it doesn't bother me a bit. In the eyes of the state we are married and so out legal standing as a couple is respected by the state. Nobody is asking a church to change it's ceremonies and procedures, Labour are proposing a referendum recognizing the rights of same sex couples to grant legal status to their relationship. IT IS NONE OF THE CHURCH'S BUSINESS.

On the point originally raised, Labour have agreed to legislate as the government have been directed by the Irish people since confirmation of the x case ruling in 1992.

They have civil partnership which grants them things that heterosexual couples get when they have a civil ceremoney, only difference is the same sex couple have no ceremony as it is not marriage.

Brenireland · 11-02-2011 3:18pm

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Perhaps in Ireland at present both would, constitute murder if carried out.
If I went to the netherlands though they would not be considered such.

Supporting a believe does not mean any such thing, i am pro choice i do not condone murder which is an illegal act.

No more cowardly than the Catholic hierarchy, which has overseen many dirty deeds in its time, eh!

Eh?,well I ain't standing up for the church,who your main probably is possibly with.

however I do realise that any dirty deeds they have carried out,are not specially designated to the church,the world & society in general has sinned and carried out Dirty Deeds,we see it every day in our media!

Min · 11-02-2011 3:18pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It's already legal: the Constitution is the highest law of the land, and it recognizes and protects the equal right to life of the mother along with her unborn child. This means abortion is legal where the life of the mother is at risk.

It is not legal as it is not legislated for.

Zubeneschamali · 11-02-2011 3:18pm

Brenireland wrote: »

No matter what,the life of the unborn,who have no say on the matter,they should be number one priority in such unfortunate situations.

So if it was your wife whose life was threatened by her pregnancy, you'd just say "Oh, well" and let her die?

Sorry, you'd say "Oh well, can you save the baby, doctor?"

Morag · 11-02-2011 3:18pm

Min wrote: »

Transubstantiation.

There is a different between different Christian groups but it does not prevent marriage in a Christian church.

Cool so you do know your dogma, so many don't but only seem to know about the RC churchs take on contentious issues.

If you can understand the difference between consubstantiation and transubstantiation then why is the difference between civil marriage and religious marriage so hard to grasp? or the separation of church and state?

Zubeneschamali · 11-02-2011 3:19pm

Min wrote: »

It is not legal as it is not legislated for.

The Constitution says it is legal, and is the primary law of the land.

11-02-2011 3:19pm

Min wrote: »

Gilmore says Ireland must reject conservatism.

Are you saying Ireland should go back to the conservatism of the past? Make homosexuality illegal again?

Min wrote: »

The labour party feels constrained by the constitution - with the current constitution they cannot bring in same sex marriage, they cannot bring in abortion on demand.

At the moment their policy on abortion can only go as far as the Supreme allowed which is based on the constitution, a new constitution could open up doors for abortion on demand which is what some people in the Labour want.

Some people in the Catholic church want to rape children. Does that mean it's part of the Catholic Church's position?

Labour's stated position is that they are going to legislate for something which is already allowed for in the constitution. Throwing around scare-mongering accusations of abortion-on-demand is complete bull****

Brenireland wrote: »

why do these people have/or decide to have children if their health does not allow for it?,why don't people considering having a child look for advice from the Health Authorities before they decide,rather than have a child & then seek advice.

No matter what,the life of the unborn,who have no say on the matter,they should be number one priority in such unfortunate situations.

So you are for "murdering" the mother to save the child?

oceanclub · 11-02-2011 3:20pm

David Quinn is a hypocrite. I am not "pro-abortion", as he described it. I regard it as the worst of all possible options. However, I'm not about to jail or detain raped 14-years-old who want abortions. I'm "pro-choice".

Here is Quinn jingoistically cheering on the Iraq War, and claiming that anyone against it hates America:

http://old.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-quinn032503.asp

Does that make _him_ "pro-war"? In his logic it certainly does.

P.

Morag · 11-02-2011 3:20pm

Min wrote: »

It is not legal as it is not legislated for.

Rubbish it is legal but the legislative frame work as not been put in place,
the exact same stalling was done when it came to the decriminalisation of homosexuality in this country.

Min · 11-02-2011 3:22pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The Constitution says it is legal, and is the primary law of the land.

It has to be legislated for before it can be allowed, otherwise there are legal difficulties for anyone who carried out an abortion.

When a referendum is passed it has to be legislated for to make it legal, when the Supreme court rules that something is allowed by the constitution, you need a law to back up the constitution.

It is why the government brought in a very lax blasphemy bill, they needed a blasphemy law as it is in the constitution.

Min · 11-02-2011 3:24pm

oceanclub wrote: »

David Quinn is a hypocrite. I am not "pro-abortion", as he described it. I regard it as the worst of all possible options. However, I'm not about to jail or detain raped 14-years-old who want abortions. I'm "pro-choice".

Here is Quinn jingoistically cheering on the Iraq War, and claiming that anyone against it hates America:

http://old.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-quinn032503.asp

Does that make _him_ "pro-war"? In his logic it certainly does.

P.

Pro-choice is a cop out.

You either support abortion happening or you don't.

Skrynesaver · 11-02-2011 3:24pm

Min wrote: »

They have civil partnership which grants them things that heterosexual couples get when they have a civil ceremony, only difference is the same sex couple have no ceremony as it is not marriage.

So why should the state have different terminology for two identical contracts. The fact that the church uses this term for their contract (not available to every one, special terms and conditions apply) also should be no impediment to the state marrying couples regardless of their gender. Sure in the eyes of the church they would not be married, but like my wife and I, they wouldn't care what an organisation of deluded medivialist homophobes thought

Brenireland · 11-02-2011 3:26pm

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

What?

You pointed out the church had moral standing, yet when they abuse that power, you then happily wipe their slate clean because others have done bad things too

Please dont quote some old gibberish at me, we are not taking about entrance to the land of clouds and a 100 virgins.
We are taking about a law being passed and agreed by the majority of people in the nation.

It's o.k I am not standing up for the church,but it is apparent your main problem is with the church.

we are not taking about entrance to the land of clouds and a 100 virgins.
We are taking about a law being passed and agreed by the majority of people in the nation

Ok,Well as far as I am concerned your currently in the land of clouds,
"A Law Being Passed & Agreed by the Majority of people in the nation",
If your anti-Fianna Fail,as many are,you will Realise many Voted Fianna Fail into government for the majority of our states history,I wonder do they wish they hadn't?,Our nation is a Cowardly nation,sad,but true,i.e: Lisbon Treaty.

Min · 11-02-2011 3:27pm

28064212 wrote: »

Are you saying Ireland should go back to the conservatism of the past? Make homosexuality illegal again?

Some people in the Catholic church want to rape children. Does that mean it's part of the Catholic Church's position?

Labour's stated position is that they are going to legislate for something which is already allowed for in the constitution. Throwing around scare-mongering accusations of abortion-on-demand is complete bull****

So you are for "murdering" the mother to save the child?

No one is saying about going back to the past.

I think you will find Ireland is one of the safest countries in the world for pregnant women unlike some countries where abortion is available on demand.
Go and see for yourself, maybe caring for both mother and baby has led to higher standards than countries where they see the unborn as disposable.

Nodin · 11-02-2011 3:27pm

lyverbird1 wrote: »

Alive magazine: Perhaps the most offensive publication I've ever read. I can no longer read it as the bile it so often spews makes me sick. I always hope to catch the delivery person putting it through my door so I can hand it back to them. Otherwise it goes straight to the recycling bin because I wouldn't even use it for floor covering when polishing shoes...

...though in fairness if it wasn't for alive I wouldn't know Homosexualist was a real word that people use.

Min wrote:

I don't think Labour is compatible with Catholic teaching.......

Others would disagree. However, as Gilmore isn't running for head of the Catholic church, such matters are really of minor importance.

Min wrote:

Catholics can't vote for same sex marriage. Marriage is seen by catholics as a sacrament between a woman and a man.......

...by some catholics.

11-02-2011 3:28pm

Min wrote: »

They have civil partnership which grants them things that heterosexual couples get when they have a civil ceremoney, only difference is the same sex couple have no ceremony as it is not marriage.

Wrong. Civil partners are not entitled to tax entitlements, social welfare benefits or adoption rights that civil marriages are. The ceremony is completely separate to the actual registration of marriage/partnership. Anyone can have any kind of ceremony they want, subject to the agreement of the location they choose

A vote for Labour is a vote for Abortion - Iona Institute

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