PED

Halloween Jack · 31-07-2014 5:27pm

walshb wrote: »

Ok, and until a major scandal breaks in tennis then we are all left wondering, not knowing. I don't know what is difficult about this.

Worry for tennis all you like. But until your worries become reality then it's speculation and wonder.

And, let us say that a scandal does erupt. Does than mean EVERY tennis player is guilty? There were and there are clean track stars and clean cyclists. Not all them were cheating. So, even with this disastrous scandal that you predict, it is not the end of the sport.

I never said any scandal would be the end of tennis nor did I say any tennis player is definitely guilty, far less all of them.

You seem to be painting me as some sort of naysayer awaiting the downfall of certain athletes with glee.

I'd love it if there was no cheating of any kind of sport, but my knowledge of human behaviour when money and prestige are at stake leaves me very pessimistic

walshb · 31-07-2014 5:46pm

Halloween Jack wrote: »

I never said any scandal would be the end of tennis nor did I say any tennis player is definitely guilty, far less all of them.

You seem to be painting me as some sort of naysayer awaiting the downfall of certain athletes with glee.

I'd love it if there was no cheating of any kind of sport, but my knowledge of human behaviour when money and prestige are at stake leaves me very pessimistic

That was not my intention to paint you as a naysayer. I also know that you didn't say that a scandal would be the end of tennis. I just made that as a point.

Giruilla · 31-07-2014 5:49pm

walshb wrote: »

You left out the point that I mentioned about them believing that they are good enough to be the best through hard work and dedication.

I addressed that..

walshb wrote: »

Also, add in that maybe some of them are genuine good guys who would not deceive their fans and their family and themselves.

Again, that is the same point you've repeatedly made about their intergrity.
So besides their ingerity, any other points?

walshb wrote: »

Now, can you answer my question. Of all the top ten how many do you believe to be on gear, as you put it?

At some stage in their career, all 10.

walshb · 31-07-2014 5:56pm

Giruilla wrote: »

Again, that is the same point you've repeatedly made about their intergrity.
So besides their ingerity, any other points?

.

I made other points. I said that what they are doing physically on the court IMO is not something that can only be achieved through doping. Made this point several times. Did you see it?

And, what other points other than them being honest are there?

Imagine asking a top athlete: Why do you not take PEDs? Or why would you not take PEDs to gain an advantage? Are you expecting some long winded answer with many points? What if they said that they believe it to be dishonest, and that they don't trust taking PEDs on the health of their bodies? Would you want more than this as a reason?

Halloween Jack · 31-07-2014 5:59pm

walshb wrote: »

That was not my intention to paint you as a naysayer. I also know that you didn't say that a scandal would be the end of tennis. I just made that as a point.

Fair enough.

Between the 3 of us we've been over pretty much every aspect of both sides of the argument here.

Interesting debate for the most part although exasperating on everybody's part at times I'd imagine;)

K4t · 31-07-2014 11:25pm

Giruilla wrote: »

At some stage in their career, all 10.

I really doubt Federer or Djokovic have.

I wouldn't be as sure about Nadal but maybe that's just because he is bigger and stronger than the other two, muscle mass wise.

As top level sportsmen go, those three have always struck me as genuine, honest decent guys who have worked hard their whole lives to get where they are. I don't think they'd risk doping and I think they have shown amazing integrity their whole careers.

Giruilla · 01-08-2014 10:40am

K4t wrote: »

I really doubt Federer or Djokovic have.

I wouldn't be as sure about Nadal but maybe that's just because he is bigger and stronger than the other two, muscle mass wise.

As top level sportsmen go, those three have always struck me as genuine, honest decent guys who have worked hard their whole lives to get where they are. I don't think they'd risk doping and I think they have shown amazing integrity their whole careers.

Risk doping? Wheres the risk?

The point is if you're playing against one of the best in the world who is doping.. in all likelihood you're not going to beat him/her without doping!

Giruilla · 01-08-2014 10:50am

K4t wrote: »

I really doubt Federer or Djokovic have.

I wouldn't be as sure about Nadal but maybe that's just because he is bigger and stronger than the other two, muscle mass wise.

As top level sportsmen go, those three have always struck me as genuine, honest decent guys who have worked hard their whole lives to get where they are. I don't think they'd risk doping and I think they have shown amazing integrity their whole careers.

Also Djokovic "amazing integrity" his whole career?

A guy who did all he could do to publicly discredit a doping official who'd spent 15 years in her post.. calling her "negligent and unprofessional".. for having the gumption to report his buddy Troiki for skipping a test saying he was unwell?

walshb · 01-08-2014 11:31am

Giruilla wrote: »

Risk doping? Wheres the risk?

The point is if you're playing against one of the best in the world who is doping.. in all likelihood you're not going to beat him/her without doping!

Who IS doping? Name him if you are so sure. Or would that get you a ban on the thread?

Halloween Jack · 01-08-2014 12:08pm

walshb wrote: »

Who IS doping? Name him if you are so sure. Or would that get you a ban on the thread?

That's the great shame of the matter though. There will continue to be suspicion and aspersions cast until the ITF drastically up their game.

As the blog I linked earlier shows, the testing regime has actually been weakened in the last number of years.

I had hoped that due to the media heat regarding doping in general in 2013, the ITF may have realised that more needed to be done. Unfortunately the numbers for last year are pathetic.

This should anger every tennis fan who loves clean sport and every fan of the big 4 who's tired of defending them from allegations of doping.

But you won't hear a whisper of any of this on a televised broadcast, commentators and pundits should be appalled at the situation, but they aren't.

The only conclusion to take is that those involved in the game have no real interest in catching cheats or ensuring clean competition.

In actual fact the opposite is true, the tennis writers won't go near doping as a topic and retain their access to players etc and the testing will be designed in such a way to have just enough testing to claim legitimacy while being eminently beatable to avoid any major scandal derailing the gravy train.

What I'm saying is that the authorities know doping is a problem but hope to sweep it under the carpet. Would they prefer if tennis was clean? Sure, but they won't risk a major scandal to clear it up.

Again this should anger everybody, there are clean athletes out there being denied careers because they are not prepared to cheat.

All of this is reminiscent of pretty much every other doping era in sports history

walshb · 01-08-2014 1:17pm

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Again this should anger everybody, there are clean athletes out there being denied careers because they are not prepared to cheat.

And it begs the question of just how effective and good are PEDs in tennis? Surely the top 50 players in the world are making a living, and have a career worth continuing? Who's being denied a career because they don't do PEDs? Is there that much a gulf between a clean player not being able to have a career vs. a similar player who dopes having a career?

It's almost implying that most of the players who have a career and are making a living, even comfortable, and above comfortable are probably there because of PEDs? That's a stretch. That them being there is denying the clean players that spot.

I really don't believe a player ranked very very low suddenly becomes a player with a career and a high ranking because of some PED!

And, if the top 10 are all doping, are the 10-20 doping and so on? If so then who's cheating anyone out of a career?

Halloween Jack · 01-08-2014 2:51pm

walshb wrote: »

And it begs the question of just how effective and good are PEDs in tennis? Surely the top 50 players in the world are making a living, and have a career worth continuing? Who's being denied a career because they don't do PEDs? Is there that much a gulf between a clean player not being able to have a career vs. a similar player who dopes having a career?

It's almost implying that most of the players who have a career and are making a living, even comfortable, and above comfortable are probably there because of PEDs? That's a stretch. That them being there is denying the clean players that spot.

I really don't believe a player ranked very very low suddenly becomes a player with a career and a high ranking because of some PED!

And, if the top 10 are all doping, are the 10-20 doping and so on? If so then who's cheating anyone out of a career?

Obviously we can't know how many athletes are cheating, there's obviously going to be differences of opinion on numbers etc.

In baseball, during the height of the steroid years it has been claimed that up to 80% of guys were juicing in some form.

In cycling throughout the 90's it seemed like the majority of the peloton was doped, there is a great graphic somewhere showing the top ten finishers of the tDF in the 90's, with confirmed dopers X'd out, there were hardly any finishers left.

So historically in eras of rampant PED use you could be conservative and estimate 40-50% of competitors were dirty (and could equally make a case for numbers being much higher).

I believe that we are in such a scenario now with tennis.

But regardless of how many are doping, even if it's only 1 guy on tour he's still cheating everybody else on tour and many, many other guys on the challenger circuit.

We've had players toward the bottomif the pile like Odesnik and contenders for major honours like cilic test positive, so the incentives are there right through the game.

Halloween Jack · 01-08-2014 2:55pm

Every dollar a guy earns while doped is money stolen from somebody who is clean, at least that's the way I see it. That's also why I'd like to see jail time for dopers.

Halloween Jack · 01-08-2014 11:19pm

Apparently Dustin Johnson is serving a ban from the PGA tour for testing positive for cocaine. It's his third failed test, he received a 'silent' ban in 2012. This is the kind of thing that people allege is going on in tennis. Athletes test positive, the results are hushed up and players withdraw for a number of months 'injured'. Granted cocaine isn't strictly a PED but something like that tarnishes a sports image, much like a positive test for EPO would, hence there is incentive to cover it up.

Giruilla · 02-08-2014 9:24am

The only difference though is golf makes public the ban if it's for PED usage, not for anything else. Like Vijay Singh.. (who did the usual.. get caught - blame it on some random legal medicine or food that has traces of banned substance.)

Tennis though has shown it doesnt make bans public if the players choose to retire instead of challenging the ban. Like with Hingis.

What did you think of Bartoli retiring directly after Wimbledon? Extremely suspect in my opinion... (she was also coached by Mauresmo).

walshb · 02-08-2014 10:41am

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Granted cocaine isn't strictly a PED but something like that tarnishes a sports image, much like a positive test for EPO would, hence there is incentive to cover it up.

Johnson seems to have some personal demons. I think his test fails where more poor choices than wanting to cheat in Golf. Cannabis and cocaine being his "PED". Not saying they can't aid a golfer, but I don't think in his case he was using them for his game.

Halloween Jack · 05-08-2014 6:01pm

walshb wrote: »

Johnson seems to have some personal demons. I think his test fails where more poor choices than wanting to cheat in Golf. Cannabis and cocaine being his "PED". Not saying they can't aid a golfer, but I don't think in his case he was using them for his game.

Yeah I wasn't suggesting he was trying to cheat, rather I'm citing it as an example of the authorities being opaque in their process in revealing positive tests.

Today a guy called Tony Bosch handed himself in to authorities, charged with supplying rafts of PED's to baseball players.

It is also alleged that files bearing Wayne Odesnik's name were found in bosch's biogenesis clinic.

The ITF has gone on record as saying it had launched an investigation into whether tennis players were involved with biogenesis.

A number of things could come out during bosch's trial, possibly relating to tennis.

Giruilla · 06-08-2014 10:46am

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Yeah I wasn't suggesting he was trying to cheat, rather I'm citing it as an example of the authorities being opaque in their process in revealing positive tests.

Today a guy called Tony Bosch handed himself in to authorities, charged with supplying rafts of PED's to baseball players.

It is also alleged that files bearing Wayne Odesnik's name were found in bosch's biogenesis clinic.

The ITF has gone on record as saying it had launched an investigation into whether tennis players were involved with biogenesis.

A number of things could come out during bosch's trial, possibly relating to tennis.

The Miami New Times were confident enough to print Odesnik's name. They probably only did this he'd been caught with HGH already.

There could very well be many other tennis players on the evidence they had, but they don 't want to print it.
Hopefully it all spills out with Bosch pleading guilty to conspiracy. I wouldn't get my hopes up though.

There are plenty of tennis players who are either based or train a lot in Miami.

Giruilla · 06-08-2014 11:04am

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Yeah I wasn't suggesting he was trying to cheat, rather I'm citing it as an example of the authorities being opaque in their process in revealing positive tests.

Yeah and it's not just golf. People have this image that if an athlete has a positive test, it will be made public. It now appears this whole process is extremely opaque in every sport with money involved. Like the PGA tour was prepared to let Johnson make up any excuse he wanted as long as he took time off and it didnt taint the sport.
In truth, nobody really has a clue of the ITF/PGA/FIFA's procedures if a big player fails a test. LA had a failed test swept under the carpet. Hingis had the choice to retire.
I was shocked to learn you can miss 2 out of competition tests before the olympics and only get banned if you miss a third. They certainly don't make information like that readily public!

How many times have tennis players cited mysterious injuries and taken time off?

Halloween Jack · 06-08-2014 11:50am

Giruilla wrote: »

Yeah and it's not just golf. People have this image that if an athlete has a positive test, it will be made public. It now appears this whole process is extremely opaque in every sport with money involved. Like the PGA tour was prepared to let Johnson make up any excuse he wanted as long as he took time off and it didnt taint the sport.
In truth, nobody really has a clue of the ITF/PGA/FIFA's procedures if a big player fails a test. LA had a failed test swept under the carpet. Hingis had the choice to retire.
I was shocked to learn you can miss 2 out of competition tests before the olympics and only get banned if you miss a third. They certainly don't make information like that readily public!

How many times have tennis players cited mysterious injuries and taken time off?

That's why the argument that such and such a player has never missed a test is bogus.

For starters there are obvious instances where people tested positive and we didn't hear about it till well after the fact, sometimes years after, in the case of Agassi or Armstrong. Even recently Cilic was allowed withdraw from Wimbledon injured, when in actual fact he had failed a test. Last years Wimbledon was very unusual with that spate of withdrawals and the bartoli thing.

We can speculate about individual players all we like but the fact remains that there is enough evidence to suggest that something very untoward regarding doping is going on in the game.

Giruilla · 06-08-2014 12:06pm

Halloween Jack wrote: »

We can speculate about individual players all we like but the fact remains that there is enough evidence to suggest that something very untoward regarding doping is going on in the game.

Yeah.. I think can definitely say that as fact.

Not everyone is of that opinion of course..

"I feel like we have too many drugs tests in tennis. I get tested 35-40 times every year," "From my point of view, it's impossible not to get caught these days."

"Maybe Lance Armstrong was tested a lot and never failed a test but I just don't know how that is possible,"

- Marion Bartoli

walshb · 07-08-2014 2:09pm

Well, if Bartoli is telling the truth, and she has been drugs tested 35-40 times per year, then I am prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt. What else can she do to "prove" she is clean?

Halloween Jack · 07-08-2014 10:26pm

walshb wrote: »

Well, if Bartoli is telling the truth, and she has been drugs tested 35-40 times per year, then I am prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt. What else can she do to "prove" she is clean?

35-40 tests a year may mean nothing in an of itself though, 35 in competition urine tests are pretty much worthless.

Giruilla · 03-03-2015 10:43am

Marion Bartoli contemplating tennis comeback.. silent ban over?

Halloween Jack · 03-03-2015 6:19pm

Giruilla wrote: »

Marion Bartoli contemplating tennis comeback.. silent ban over?

Ridiculously fishy, I felt at the time of her retirement that something was amiss, and then exactly 18 months later....

Halloween Jack · 03-03-2015 6:23pm

Just rereading some of this, parallels between Dustin Johnson and allegations that woods is serving a silent ban currently....

Giruilla · 03-03-2015 6:40pm

Yeah, nothing about her retirement was 'normal'.

The Woods stuff is hilarious.. a LOT of smoke around him.. his doctor connections... look at his before/after pictures from early career ffs! Total triangular body shape - all it takes is a little hard work and some hard hours in the gym of course..
There's also the unfortunate 'coincidence' he hasn't won a major since the PGA started drug testing.

Henry9 · 03-03-2015 10:48pm

Bartoli is an idiot, she's let the cat out of the bag. There was huge suspicion around her retirement, she's almost making it blatant.
IQ of 175 my foot.

Halloween Jack · 07-03-2016 10:24pm

If only sharapova had a panic room to hide in...

PED

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