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And that needs looking at, absolutely. Details of the cases.
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.ie/2011/09/list.html?m=1
If you haven't checked out that website it's well worth a read. I think the guy who set it up originally is Irish. I would ignore a lot of the comments under the articles though, some of them are tinfoil hat territory.0 -
Halloween Jack wrote: »http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.ie/2011/09/list.html?m=1
If you haven't checked out that website it's well worth a read. I think the guy who set it up originally is Irish. I would ignore a lot of the comments under the articles though, some of them are tinfoil hat territory.
Thanks for the link.
Right off the bat the article is poor. I accept the facts in the article, but the headline in the article, "Tennis has a steroid problem." How can anyone stand by that without hard facts to show it. Why a steroid problem? Could it be an EPO problem? Or some other PED problem...
Tennis has a drugs testing problem! In that it is not as thorough as other sports, and it should be more thorough and stringent!0 -
You seem to believe that they are super human, or doing super human things (in the physical sense/stamina sense) that aren't believable without help. I don't see it.
You're getting fixated on things nobody is saying.
For you, the only evidence of doping is if a player does something that is beyond the grounds of human possibility. If people are doing something that is possible, you'll take their word for it that their clean.
You've said this time and time in this thread, and I think everyone gets it. You trust the players that they're clean.
Do you know how hard it is to define what is and isn't possible to achieve with the human body? You're asking for solid proof that something Nadal or Djokovic did is unachievable, and nobody here is going to give that to you because they can't. Any evidence of suspicious behavior given to you, will just be responded to with "wow, but that is still possible because blah blah, so I choose to believe they are clean because it doesn't satisfy MY perspective on what is physically achievable"
Two examples,
Chris Froome - His times and attacks while in the saddle in last years tour all screamed PED's.. something that seemed beyond possible for human body, yet personally I think he's clean.
Barry Bonds - Just hitting home runs is totally within the bounds of human possibility.. yet everyone knew he was juiced to the gills.0 -
Thanks for the link.
Right off the bat the article is poor. I accept the facts in the article, but the headline in the article, "Tennis has a steroid problem." How can anyone stand by that without hard facts to show it. Why a steroid problem? Could it be an EPO problem? Or some other PED problem...
Tennis has a drugs testing problem! In that it is not as thorough as other sports, and it should be more thorough and stringent!
That's the name of the blog, it is of course the authors opinion, but read the main posts on the site, they are pretty much fact based and paint a very grim picture of the way the game is governed from an anti doping point of view.
Just look at the tab 'the case against tennis' and you'll see that testing has been actually watered down in the last few years.
Why would any governing body take such a course of action?0 -
Two examples,
Chris Froome - His times and attacks while in the saddle in last years tour all screamed PED's.. something that seemed beyond possible for human body, yet personally I think he's clean.
Barry Bonds - Just hitting home runs is totally within the bounds of human possibility.. yet everyone knew he was juiced to the gills.
You believe Froome to be clean? Or are you trying to quote me?
In life many things are subjective. What Nadal and Nole and Murray are doing on the tennis court (in the physical sense) doesn't have me shaking my head in disbelief. That's the be all and end all. If that is so difficult for you to believe then so be it.
Reading through your posts you seem to believe that many many feats that have been achieved are very suspect. I admit, there are some that would have me suspicious, Flo Jo is very suspicious, as was Ben Johnson. I had my feelings before he got busted. But many great records in sports are for me attainable whilst clean. Not saying all were attained whilst clean, just that the records are attainable I would think. With tennis it's not as measurable as some other sports. It's a little more subjective. In T&F we have times and distances and exact measurements. In other sports like tennis and baseball and boxing and soccer we are relying on more comparison statistics.
It might surprise you to know that I found it quite difficult (not impossible) to believe that Ali and Frazier were completely clean during their battles in 1971 and 1975.0 -
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Walshb, Victor Conte named 4 massive tennis players as having worked with a doping doctor.
These were all 4 tennis players who you would never say are doing anything "super human" or beyond what you'd think would be possible. In fact, they were at levels far far below what Nadal/Djokovic are doing, and with basically zero suspicious behavior or comments regarding doping like the current top 4 and Serena would have.
Whats your opinion on that? How would you view those players?
Some background: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/mar/13/tennis.drugsinsportGreg Rusedski's fight to repair his reputation was not helped yesterday when it emerged, in a Californian newspaper, that his father Tom enlisted the help of the disgraced nutritionist Victor Conte,0 -
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Walshb, Victor Conte named 4 massive tennis players as having worked with a doping doctor.
These were all 4 tennis players who you would never say are doing anything "super human" or beyond what you'd think would be possible. In fact, they were at levels far far below what Nadal/Djokovic are doing, and with basically zero suspicious behavior or comments regarding doping like the current top 4 and Serena would have.
Whats your opinion on that? How would you view those players?
Some background: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/mar/13/tennis.drugsinsport
Greg Rusedski was not half the player that Nole and Murray and Nadal were. Not close. He is one that may well have needed the help to stay competitive with the best there. He also had a violation against him. No argument with me as regards Rusedski.
Lendl and Chang were two mentioned I believe. 80s and 90s players. Was Sharapaova mentioned?
Not sure what opinion I am meant to have. It doesn't alter my view that Nole and Murray and Nadal are doing things that I believe can be done whilst clean.
You seem far too insistent that they have to be cheats. It's like a personal victory for you. Tennis, the sport, is a problem as regards testing. To take this and then want to make out that the best players are cheats because tennis has testing problems is for me silly!0 -
Greg Rusedski was not half the player that Nole and Murray and Nadal were. Not close. He is one that may well have needed the help to stay competitive with the best there. He also had a violation against him. No argument with me as regards Rusedski.
Thats not my point. If you google victor conte and tennis players you will see who he named.
My point is these are players who were seemingly not doing anything suspicious by performance standards (even though actually they were no.1 at times) yet who have been named as working with a juice doctor.
You look at the best players in the world - the fittest, strongest, along with being skillful - and say well they're just the best players.
You think it's only the less skillful players that have to dope to stay in the game and compete. Thats so incredibly naiive to me.
I look at them and say, if they're the fittest strongest, and best in the world in a sport that has horrendous doping controls.. they're the most suspicious by far.0 -
. Thats so incredibly naiive to me.
I look at them and say, if they're the fittest strongest, and best in the world in a sport that has horrendous doping controls.. they're the most suspicious by far.
Where did I say that only the less skilled need to dope? I mentioned one player, Rusedski who must have believed that he needed help to compete at the top. Just like Ben Johnson felt that to better Lewis he needed to juice. His excuse of course was that ALL the sprinters are on the PEDs, even though he was the only one caught for PEDs on that day in Seoul. . Some of the best in the world got there through hard work and dedication. That doesn't mean that all did. Some of the best got to the top through hard work/talent/doping!
Hand on heart I believe that Fed and Nole and Murray and Nadal got to the top through hard work/dedication/talent! Nothing stands out from any of them that screams of PEDs. That is not to say that it has to stand out. Just that I believe all to be honest and clean players, along with the fact that IMO the feats that they are accomplishing can be attributed to their utter commitment to their sport, as well as their natural talent!
BTW, a comparison question: Do you think Froome did more extraordinary things than say Nole? I know it's not an exact yes or no kind of answer.0 -
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Where did I say that only the less skilled need to dope? I mentioned one player, Rusedski who must have believed that he needed help to compete at the top. Just like Ben Johnson felt that to better Lewis he needed to juice. His excuse of course was that ALL the sprinetrs are on the PEDs, even though he was the only one caught for PEDs on that day in Seoul. Again, you are making up things. Some of the best in the world got there through hard work and dedication. That doesn't mean that all did. Some of the best got to the top through hard work/talent/doping!
Hand on heart I believe that Fed and Nole and Murray and Nadal got to the top through hard work/dedication/talent! Nothing stands out from any of them that screams of PEDs. That is not to say that it has to stand out. Just that I believe all to be honest and clean players, along with the fact that IMO the feats that they are accomplishing can be attributed to their utter commitment to their sport, as well as their natural talent!
Ok, so do you believe that the use of PED's is widespread in tennis? And if not why?
Why do you assume that those 4 players are inherently honest?0 -
Halloween Jack wrote: »Ok, so do you believe that the use of PED's is widespread in tennis? And if not why?
Why do you assume that those 4 players are inherently honest?
Can one not have a view or hunch that some person is honest? Surely we can?
I have watched them for many years and followed their progress. Listened to them and watched them. What else can one do? Add this to the fact that they have never tested positive for banned substances, and surely a belief that they could be clean and honest is not silly? I take into account the lax testing procedures in the sport, that is a black mark against them, but I wouldn't hang them for it. Why is believing that some humans want to do great things whilst clean in sport seen as odd or incredibly naive, by some!
Paula Radcliffe. She ran the marathon faster than any woman ever. I believe in her. I believe she did it clean. Ed Moses held the 400 hurdles record for many years. I believe that he did it clean.
There is two examples. Two of many
Can I ask, what great records in sport do you believe to be clean?0 -
Halloween Jack wrote: »Ok, so do you believe that the use of PED's is widespread in tennis? And if not why?
Widespread is a subjective term at times. I believe that players dope, just like any sports competitors in any sport. I believe some sports dope more, and I believe that some sports benefit more from doping. Doping in tennis will help a player in the physical and fitness sense, allowing them to maintain form and technique for longer. Is tennis rampant with PEDs? Until we get many positive tests then we are left wondering more than knowing. Again, just because the testing procedures may be not as stringent as other sports does not mean that the sport has a widespread PED problem.0 -
-Michael Emmett, Director of Tennis Operations at all Mayfair clubsWell, there are just as many Nadal rumours out there. I sat in a locker room a few years back and listened to three coaches discussing the steroids that Nadal was taking. One of the coaches, who was from Columbia, said he saw Nadal ingesting some sort of PEDs prior to a workout session in Monte Carlo.
- Nikola Pilić, Former world tennis No. 6"As far as Nadal is concerned, I am very suspicious regarding him. The Spaniard plays Roland Garros in fantastic shape two years in a row, and then is like a flat tire at Halle and Wimbledon."
"I don't have proof that he dopes, but where there's smoke, there is fire. But, I'm not the one who's supposed to be the judge or discover things. There are officials in tennis in charge of those things, and it is their job to pay attention".
Some very well respected people in tennis don't believe Nadals success is down to his utter commitment to his sport.0 -
-Michael Emmett, Director of Tennis Operations at all Mayfair clubs
- Nikola Pilić, Former world tennis No. 6
Some very well respected people in tennis don't believe Nadals success is down to his utter commitment to his sport.
And some respected people believe he is clean. What's the point? Life is full of rumors. I'd prefer some actual evidence that can be taken as clear.
I saw this, I saw that. He took this, he took that. People will say a lot of things. Doesn't make them good and honest and truthful. Ben Johnson trying to blame Lewis' camp for spiking him. No different.0 -
Can one not have a view or hunch that some person is honest? Surely we can?
I have watched them for many years and followed their progress. Listened to them and watched them. What else can one do? Add this to the fact that they have never tested positive for banned substances, and surely a belief that they could be clean and honest is not silly? I take into account the lax testing procedures in the sport, that is a black mark against them, but I wouldn't hang them for it. Why is believing that some humans want to do great things whilst clean in sport seen as odd or incredibly naive, by some!
Paula Radcliffe. She ran the marathon faster than any woman ever. I believe in her. I believe she did it clean. Ed Moses held the 400 hurdles record for many years. I believe that he did it clean.
There is two examples. Two of many
Can I ask, what great records in sport do you believe to be clean?
But see on the one hand you're on the verge of calling people irrational for being highly suspicious of the top 4 without failed tests etc, while on the other hand you're assuming they are clean on a 'hunch' that they are honest.
That's why I asked you if you believed PED use is widespread in tennis. If you think it is, then your belief that the tour is riddled with cheats but there are four guys at the top who have presided over the most dominant era in the sport ever are also paragons of virtue would defy all logic.
If you don't think PED's are an issue in tennis at all then you're essentially assuming the majority are clean despite admitting that the testing is not fit for purpose. That to me is either showing an admirable faith in the morality of athletes or pretty naïve.
To answer your question re athletics, I don't know enough about the sport to comment on what is achievable and what isn't. However, angel heredia, the balco guy said that basically the difference between just under 10 secs and the 9.7, 9.6 or whatever was drugs and that every sprinter in the 100m final in Beijing was cheating and he had worked with 6 of the 8 personally.0 -
Walshb, besides because you believe in their integrity and you trust them..
.. do you have any other point at all as to why the top 4 tennis players - in a sport where they have huge freedom to juice due to lax testing, and have millions and millions up for grabs - would be clean?0 -
Halloween Jack wrote: »But see on the one hand you're on the verge of calling people irrational for being highly suspicious of the top 4 without failed tests etc, while on the other hand you're assuming they are clean on a 'hunch' that they are honest.
That's why I asked you if you believed PED use is widespread in tennis. If you think it is, then your belief that the tour is riddled with cheats but there are four guys at the top who have presided over the most dominant era in the sport ever are also paragons of virtue would defy all logic.
If you don't think PED's are an issue in tennis at all then you're essentially assuming the majority are clean despite admitting that the testing is not fit for purpose. That to me is either showing an admirable faith in the morality of athletes or pretty naïve.
To answer your question re athletics, I don't know enough about the sport to comment on what is achievable and what isn't. However, angel heredia, the balco guy said that basically the difference between just under 10 secs and the 9.7, 9.6 or whatever was drugs and that every sprinter in the 100m final in Beijing was cheating and he had worked with 6 of the 8 personally.
To be suspicious is grand. I never said that to be suspicious meant irrational. To be so so suspicious, and not really accepting that athletes could be honest is IMO a bit irrational. You said/implied that if the top athletes aren't cheating then then they are silly. This I find odd. That is dismissing many greats through the years. Dismissing anyone who ever did something fantastic in sport. I find that a sad reflection on the whole world of sport, but I also don't think for one second that you are completely wrong.
I understand suspicion of the top players in tennis. I do. But surely you too should understand people who have a belief or hunch that the top guys are clean. It works both ways. Neither camp are wrong.
I answered your query about widespread PED use in tennis perfectly clear. Nothing in that answer is incorrect. Until we get many positive tests for PEDs we are left wondering, NOT knowing. Why should the best [players in the world be practically labeled cheats because of lees than brilliant testing procedures. That to me is unfair.0 -
Walshb, besides because you believe in their integrity and you trust them..
.. do you have any other point at all as to why the top 4 tennis players - in a sport where they have huge freedom to juice due to lax testing, and have millions and millions up for grabs - would be clean?
Do you have proof that they are not clean? The burden of proof is on you. You are the one forcing the opinion that they must be on PEDs.
This is mad. You are asking me to prove that the top 4 are clean.
Why would they be clean? That doesn't really deserve a response. In a nutshell I could simply say that to the best of my knowledge they have not failed drugs tests for banned substances, but that answer doesn't suit you, as you come back with "tennis testing is lax."
My "hunch" that they are clean is no different than your hunch that they are dopers. The only difference is that I have something to show for it. They have never ever tested positive for banned substances. Your only real "evidence" for them being cheats is that the testing is lax. That and locker room rumours.
Anyway, we need more than you and me and Halloween Jack in to debate this. What are the views of the others?0 -
Do you have proof that they are not clean? The burden of proof is on you. You are the one forcing the opinion that they must be on PEDs.
This is mad. You are asking me to prove that the top 4 are clean.
Why would they be clean? That doesn't really deserve a response. In a nutshell I could simply say that to the best of my knowledge they have not failed drugs tests for banned substances, but that answer doesn't suit you, as you come back with "tennis testing is lax."
My "hunch" that they are clean is no different than your hunch that they are dopers. The only difference is that I have something to show for it. They have never ever tested positive for banned substances. Your only real "evidence" for them being cheats is that the testing is lax. That and locker room rumours.
Anyway, we need more than you and me and Halloween Jack in to debate this. What are the views of the others?
So is it fair for me to say that your answer to the very simple questionbesides because you believe in their integrity and you trust them..
.. do you have any other point at all as to why the top 4 tennis players - in a sport where they have huge freedom to juice due to lax testing, and have millions and millions up for grabs - would be clean?
is "no"?0 -
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Do you have proof that they are not clean? The burden of proof is on you. You are the one forcing the opinion that they must be on PEDs.
This is mad. You are asking me to prove that the top 4 are clean.
Why would they be clean? That doesn't really deserve a response. In a nutshell I could simply say that to the best of my knowledge they have not failed drugs tests for banned substances, but that answer doesn't suit you, as you come back with "tennis testing is lax."
My "hunch" that they are clean is no different than your hunch that they are dopers. The only difference is that I have something to show for it. They have never ever tested positive for banned substances. Your only real "evidence" for them being cheats is that the testing is lax. That and locker room rumours.
Anyway, we need more than you and me and Halloween Jack in to debate this. What are the views of the others?
I really wish you would move away from the whole positive tests thing, that's the most annoying strand of your argument. The major doping scandals in sports have been uncovered through investigations, not a raft of positive tests.
In baseball the likes of Jose canseco, mark McGwire and Barry bonds evaded testing positive for 20 years plus..... Never a positive test between them.
In cycling the two major scandals erupted through the Armstrong investigation and a lorry load of PED's being found by customs.
That's why I worry so much about tennis now, history has taught us that dominant eras of sporting success plus lax testing equals major PED scandal.
If what I believe is true it will eventually come out anyway.
But like I say a lack of positive tests in and of itself means nothing, especially when the amount of testing is paltry and they don't even collect sample on occaision.0 -
Just to be clear, that is NOT what I'm asking you.
I'm asking you do you have any point at all - besides you believing in their integrity - as to why the top 4 would not choose to take drugs to gain advantage?
Because they are honest and are all naturally fantastic players. And they believe that they are good enough clean and through talent and hard work to be the best. Not just the top 4.0 -
Halloween Jack wrote: »I really wish you would move away from the whole positive tests thing, that's the most annoying strand of your argument. The major doping scandals in sports have been uncovered through investigations, not a raft of positive tests.
In baseball the likes of Jose canseco, mark McGwire and Barry bonds evaded testing positive for 20 years plus..... Never a positive test between them.
In cycling the two major scandals erupted through the Armstrong investigation and a lorry load of PED's being found by customs.
That's why I worry so much about tennis now, history has taught us that dominant eras of sporting success plus lax testing equals major PED scandal.
If what I believe is true it will eventually come out anyway.
But like I say a lack of positive tests in and of itself means nothing, especially when the amount of testing is paltry and they don't even collect sample on occaision.
Ok, and until a major scandal breaks in tennis then we are all left wondering, not knowing. I don't know what is difficult about this.
Worry for tennis all you like. But until your worries become reality then it's speculation and wonder.
And, let us say that a scandal does erupt. Does than mean EVERY tennis player is guilty? There were and there are clean track stars and clean cyclists. Not all them were cheating. So, even with this disastrous scandal that you predict, it is not the end of the sport.0 -
Just to be clear, that is NOT what I'm asking you.
I'm asking you do you have any point at all - besides you believing in their integrity - as to why the top 4 would not choose to take drugs to gain advantage?
btw, what are the chances/statistics that the top 10 are all dishonest and cheating? Surely not 100 percent?
What are the chances and statistics that the big 4 are cheats? Have been cheating the public for all these years. Am I that naive to believe that it's possible that some are clean, even all?
According to some if they are not cheating then they are silly.0 -
Because they are honest
I said besides you believing in their integrity.
Anyway why would you believe someone who said this
as honest?"Doping in tennis wouldn´t make sense." - Rafael Nadal
So you're saying they would choose NOT to take drugs, because they are already fantastic enough players not to need them. That they could beat other players who are on gear anyway.and are all naturally fantastic players.
You realise it is now YOU who are saying they are close to super human. That there is such a gulf in class between their ability and anyone who WOULD choose to take drugs in a lax testing sport, that they would still win regardless.
That however would be in direct contrast to the fact the players themselves are putting down their losses due to inferior stamina and physicality.. saying they need to get back in the gym. Basically saying their gulf in ability, WOULD NOT be enough to beat a similarly skilled opponent with superior stamina due to juice.
So to sum up, you believe the top tennis players would choose not to take drugs, because they are honest and already have a high enough ability that they don't need them (even though they themselves basically admit in some situations they would)? Any other reasons why pros competing for millions of dollars and earning a living would choose not to juice?0 -
I said besides you believing in their integrity.
Anyway why would you believe someone who said this
as honest?
His opinion and view. How can this make his dishonest? I could call the opinion naive or even stupid, but how do you arrive at dishonest, or not honest?
BTW, who are all these players on gear?0 -
So you're saying they would choose NOT to take drugs, because they are already fantastic enough players not to need them. That they could beat other players who are on gear anyway.
.
You left out the point that I mentioned about them believing that they are good enough to be the best through hard work and dedication.
Also, add in that maybe some of them are genuine good guys who would not deceive their fans and their family and themselves.0 -
Now, can you answer my question. Of all the top ten how many do you believe to be on gear, as you put it?
Of the big 4, how many do you believe are on gear?0 -
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Walshb, just to clarify, when I said a tennis player would almost have to be an idiot not to dope, this was a turn of phrase which was meant to convey the fact that the rewards for doping are huge and the chance of being caught minuscule.
I did not say that athletes who don't dope are idiots as you seem to be at pains to imply. I regard dopers as thieves and admire anybody who competes clean when he suspects (knows) his competitors are cheating ie: Christophe bassons.0
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