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A worrying development.

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2

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    #32
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    This is part of the Great Bertie Ahern legacy.
    He played the role of Statesman for the international media, whilst at home in the Republic, he ignored the growth of Gangsterism.


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    #33
    PARKHEAD67
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭PARKHEAD67


    anymore wrote: »
    This is part of the Great Bertie Ahern legacy.
    He played the role of Statesman for the international media, whilst at home in the Republic, he ignored the growth of Gangsterism.
    100% spot on but being a gangster himself, he wasnt going to prevent other gangsters going about their business.;)


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    #34
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,787 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    mike65 wrote: »
    Whats wrong with a shoot to kill policy?
    As opposed to a shoot to disable policy? I think anyone who has been trained to fire a gun at another person will knock that myth on it's head. When you shoot you aim at the torso, that's usually fatal. It's extremely difficult to shoot someone in the leg or arm, especially if they're shooting at you so in effect every shoot policy is a shoot to kill policy, unless you're using non-fatal weapons.


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    #35
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    mike65 wrote: »
    Whats wrong with a shoot to kill policy?
    What do you mean by that?


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    #36
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    This isn't news to be honest. Criminal gangs in Limerick and Dublin have had access to a wide variety of firearms for the past few years, including grenade launchers; much of which have come in with drug shipments. As Manic Moran said earlier on, Russian grenade launchers aren't particularly expensive and if someone has the ability to acquire small arms such as AKMs and machine pistols (e.g. Ingram Mac 10s and Skorpions) they can just as easily acquire higher ordinance if needs be.

    Rocket propelled grenades have been in the possesion of these gangs for a while now, although they're generally cute enough not to use them as they know full well it would attract a hailstorm of state attention.


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    #37
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    when one of your family members is brutally murdered by some scumbag will you still vote fianna fail ? will you still support the misuse of drugs act ? will you still support the easy work policy of the gardai ?

    sure all the drug dealers are laughing at irish society.. the same drunken hypocrites who scream 'ban the head shops !

    drugs are here to stay and the crime will get an awful lot worse because of the thick irish society we have.............



    HASH # 5 CONVICTIONS # STILL SMOKIN' # HARD DRUG AND ALCOHOL FREE


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    #38
    the bolt
    Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭the bolt


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    This is what I would do to sort these thugs out:

    Internment.

    The Guards know who these guys are. Arrest them and hold them indefinitely. Then a few of the lower guys who are interned may be willing to enter into some sort of bargain in return for evidence against the big guns. Then have those fcukers severly punished. I'm talking actual life in some ****hole of a prison. Execution would be even better. They have no qualms about executing people themselves. Treat like with like. These guys only understand violence. Let them have it!


    “Organized crime constitutes nothing less than a guerrilla war against society”
    i seem to remember internment been tried before in this country and it didnt work to well that time did it:rolleyes:


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    #39
    the bolt
    Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭the bolt


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Every gang member one hears of being killed or similar tends to be "Known to Gardai." We know who these people are. We know their tactics. Organized crime needs to be dealt with in more the way we dealt with paramilitaries than somebody robbing handbags.

    They intimidate witnesses. They have good covers. They do the most damage.

    So, let's put them in special courts. Let's increase the usage of intelligence, with secret warrants. Let's lower the burdon of proof.

    All of this has been suggested before. Let's bloody well do it!

    These people should fear the State. Instead, they laugh at it.
    why not get rid of the courts and just execute them


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    #40
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    End of the day the bail laws are the problem. One high profile criminal commited most of his crimes while out on remand.
    That needs to be addressed


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    #41
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    charlemont wrote: »
    when one of your family members is brutally murdered by some scumbag will you still vote fianna fail ? will you still support the misuse of drugs act ? will you still support the easy work policy of the gardai ?

    sure all the drug dealers are laughing at irish society.. the same drunken hypocrites who scream 'ban the head shops !

    drugs are here to stay and the crime will get an awful lot worse because of the thick irish society we have.............



    HASH # 5 CONVICTIONS # STILL SMOKIN' # HARD DRUG AND ALCOHOL FREE

    You can blame the government and gardaí all you want but at the end of the day you are the one directly giving money to these viokent criminals.


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    #42
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    k_mac wrote: »
    You can blame the government and gardaí all you want but at the end of the day you are the one directly giving money to these viokent criminals.
    Exactly. ANYONE who buys any kind of illegal drugs has blood on their hands. I would like to see much harsher punishment for drug possession.


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    #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Exactly. ANYONE who buys any kind of illegal drugs has blood on their hands. I would like to see much harsher punishment for drug possession.

    I can see your point, but tbh, in the case of marijuana anyway, i dont know, there's something wrong with outlawing nature..It could be said that anyone who supports prohibition also has blood on their hands..


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    #44
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    mike65 wrote: »
    Whats wrong with a shoot to kill policy?

    There's no such policy as "shoot to slightly hurt but don't kill".

    If you're aiming at someone, you're aiming for centre mass. It's the largest part of the body, you're most likely going to put your threat down and it's the easiest part of the body to hit.

    All this stuff of shooting people in the arm, leg etc. is all well and good in theory. However, in reality if you're in a crowded area or dealing with an armed threat, you're not going to take the chance to try put a round in someone's leg. You're going to aim centre mass, it's easier to hit and you know your target won't be getting back up.

    If the threat dies, so be it. Anyone that tries to aim for a leg or whatever, is an idiot.


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    #45
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I can see your point, but tbh, in the case of marijuana anyway, i dont know, there's something wrong with outlawing nature..It could be said that anyone who supports prohibition also has blood on their hands..
    Marijuana is no exception. All this separate class system for drugs has given people the impression that certain drugs are ok. They are not. The same people profit from marijuana as well as "harder" drugs such as cocaine. It is illegal for a reason. I personally know way to many people who have messed themselves, their lives and their families up through marijuana usage.


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    #46
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    Plenty of Irish families have been destroyed through alcoholism and gambling yet nobody is eriously suggesting a prohibition on alcohol and gambling, I support the legalisation of all drugs, if people want to damage their own health let them, the war on drugs is completely unwinnable and quite frankly I couldn't care less if drug dealers go around killing each other anymore.


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    #47
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    Plenty of Irish families have been destroyed through alcoholism and gambling yet nobody is eriously suggesting a prohibition on alcohol and gambling, I support the legalisation of all drugs, if people want to damage their own health let them, the war on drugs is completely unwinnable and quite frankly I couldn't care less if drug dealers go around killing each other anymore.
    The problem is innocent people get caught up in the crossfire.


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    #48
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »
    The problem is innocent people get caught up in the crossfire.

    Unfortunately that is true the murder of Anthony Campbell in 2006 springs to mind but do you think the war on drugs in winnable, there was a guy I went to college who sold cannabis to people including myself, fair play to him for paying his way through college by selling cannabis.


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    #49
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    Unfortunately that is true the murder of Anthony Campbell in 2006 springs to mind but do you think the war on drugs in winnable, there was a guy I went to college who sold cannabis to people including myself, fair play to him for paying his way through college by selling cannabis.
    Fair play to him? WTF is wrong with you? Your friend is a drug dealer. A right scumbag in my book. People seem to think Cannabis is harmless. It isn't. By your buying of these drugs you are the problem. Where did he get these drugs? Chances are he grew them himself but maybe he got them from a bigger dealer. Criminals. Your friend is a criminal and so are you. You have blood on your hands.

    The war on drugs is winnable. What we need are HARSH punishments. Not quite to the Singapore extent but something!


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    #50
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Fair play to him? WTF is wrong with you? Your friend is a drug dealer. A right scumbag in my book. People seem to think Cannabis is harmless. It isn't. By your buying of these drugs you are the problem. Where did he get these drugs? Chances are he grew them himself but maybe he got them from a bigger dealer. Criminals. Your friend is a criminal and so are you. You have blood on your hands.

    The war on drugs is winnable. What we need are HARSH punishments. Not quite to the Singapore extent but something!

    You have the same arguments as the alcohol prohibitionists in the United States in the 1920's, ah yes lock up people who pose no threat to society simply for smoking a joint, they are such hardcore criminals...lol

    Iran has harsh penalties for drug dealers and they have 2 million drug addicts, yeah that shows they've won the war on drugs:rolleyes:, drug taking is a fact of life in modern society get used to it and I'm a right winger by the way:D


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    #51
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    You have the same arguments as the alcohol prohibitionists in the United States in the 1920's, ah yes lock up people who pose no threat to society simply for smoking a joint, they are such hardcore criminals...lol

    Iran has harsh penalties for drug dealers and they have 2 million drug addicts, yeah that shows they've won the war on drugs:rolleyes:, drug taking is a fact of life in modern society get used to it and I'm a right winger by the way:D
    No threat to society? They are funding murderers. Sounds like a threat to me. Murders are a fact of life. Rape is a fact of life. Should we "get used" to that as well? People like you make me sick.


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    #52
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    No threat to society? They are funding murderers. Sounds like a threat to me. Murders are a fact of life. Rape is a fact of life. Should we "get used" to that as well? People like you make me sick.

    Obviously I don't condone murder and rape and any sane person shouldn't condone such despicable crimes, would you care to explain to me why it is so immoral to smoke a joint and snort cocaine?:D

    Would you say the same about American people in the 1920's who committed the evil crime of having an alcoholic drink?:rolleyes:


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    #53
    dan_d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Actually I think the point Mussolini is trying to make is this..
    " All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men sit back and do nothing "
    While it may not be evil per se, "smoking a joint and snorting cocaine" is just the end product of an industry filled with murder and violence.
    That's why we need to do something. It may seem innocuous now, just a bit of fun, who's it harming.....but we all know enough about the drugs industry to know it is run on violence. And it wouldn't take much for that to spread.


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    #54
    Peanut
    Registered Users Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭Peanut


    dan_d wrote: »
    That's why we need to do something. It may seem innocuous now, just a bit of fun, who's it harming.....but we all know enough about the drugs industry to know it is run on violence. And it wouldn't take much for that to spread.

    Which is why it should be brought back under Government regulation instead of left to deteriorate into the Wild West.


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    #55
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    Poccington wrote: »
    There's no such policy as "shoot to slightly hurt but don't kill".

    If you're aiming at someone, you're aiming for centre mass. It's the largest part of the body, you're most likely going to put your threat down and it's the easiest part of the body to hit.

    All this stuff of shooting people in the arm, leg etc. is all well and good in theory. However, in reality if you're in a crowded area or dealing with an armed threat, you're not going to take the chance to try put a round in someone's leg. You're going to aim centre mass, it's easier to hit and you know your target won't be getting back up.

    If the threat dies, so be it. Anyone that tries to aim for a leg or whatever, is an idiot.
    Given that so many of these guys are wearing body armour then there is a good chance they will get back up. Following on from the shoot to kill policy, someone would have some explaining to do if they shoot centre mass then execute while he is immobilised.
    But you would have my support ;-)

    I think there needs to be some reform of the legal system, and CAB has already been mentioned but I DON'T agree they do a good job.
    These criminals lose interest when there is not enough profit to warrant the risk.


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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    dan_d wrote: »
    Actually I think the point Mussolini is trying to make is this..
    " All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men sit back and do nothing "
    While it may not be evil per se, "smoking a joint and snorting cocaine" is just the end product of an industry filled with murder and violence.
    That's why we need to do something. It may seem innocuous now, just a bit of fun, who's it harming.....but we all know enough about the drugs industry to know it is run on violence. And it wouldn't take much for that to spread.

    yes, we need to end prohibition and take the income source off the thugs..


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    #57
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Deleted User wrote: »
    yes, we need to end prohibition and take the income source off the thugs..
    No, we need to get the drugs off of our streets. Internment for the gang leaders (the Guards know who they are) Harsh punishments even for possession (significant jail time+no social welfare). Alcohol damages peoples lives enough. Drugs are MUCH MUCH worse. Things as damaging as drugs should not be freely available to people. People are too idiotic to steer clear of them by themselves. Hence the need for government intervention. The government should take an extremely hard line and treat all illegal drugs equally.


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    #58
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    No, we need to get the drugs off of our streets. Internment for the gang leaders (the Guards know who they are) Harsh punishments even for possession (significant jail time+no social welfare). Alcohol damages peoples lives enough. Drugs are MUCH MUCH worse. Things as damaging as drugs should not be freely available to people. People are too idiotic to steer clear of them by themselves. Hence the need for government intervention. The government should take an extremely hard line and treat all illegal drugs equally.
    Main man is in Spain. This is real godfather stuff. The main man was going to lure them to a house to offer up a false truce and then hit the house with the rocket launcher.


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    #59
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Main man is in Spain. This is real godfather stuff. The main man was going to lure them to a house to offer up a false truce and then hit the house with the rocket launcher.


    I was speaking in more general terms here. You always hear "known to be involved in drugs trade/heavily involved with gangs etc" If they are known to be they should be locked up.


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    #60
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I was speaking in more general terms here. You always hear "known to be involved in drugs trade/heavily involved with gangs etc" If they are known to be they should be locked up.
    My suspicion is Gardai operate on the "better the devil you know" basis. Someone younger and more vicious will replace whoever they intern.


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    #61
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »
    My suspicion is Gardai operate on the "better the devil you know" basis. Someone younger and more vicious will replace whoever they intern.
    Which is why you also heavily punish drug USERS as well. If no one bought the damn things we wouldn't have this. Internment would act as a major deterrent. It would disrupt these highly organised gangs. There is no one solution to this problem. A selection of measures are required. The Guards would have these gangs locked up if they could simply get witnesses/evidence. They cant, hence the need for internment.


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