A worrying development.

Spiritoftheseventies · 13-05-2010 5:43pm #1

Heard this on the news this afternoon. Reporter put forward one theory that gangs might have purchased launchers to take out rival gang in one final swoop.
Can we assume that these dont come cheaply?

two loaded rocket launchers, an assault rifle, ammunition and 9kg of cocaine have been seized during a raid targeting a criminal gang in Co Kildare.

The seizure was made by officers from the Organised Crime Unit following a search at a lock-up in a small industrial estate near the village of Clane.

The Army Bomb Disposal Team has removed two loaded portable rocket launchers from the scene and declared the area safe.
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The anti-armour weapons have been taken to the Glen of Imaal to be made safe.

The assault rifle, ammunition and cocaine have been taken by gardaí for forensic examination.

Four men arrested by the Organised Crime Unit are still being questioned this evening at Clondalkin Garda Station.

The arrests and seizures are part of a Garda Operation targeting a South Dublin criminal gang.

The seizure followed the arrest of four men yesterday afternoon with another 1kg of cocaine on the Naas Road.

They were suspected of being involved in a drugs handover and the total street value of all the cocaine is estimated at around €750,000.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0513/kildare.html

Laminations · 13-05-2010 5:49pm

And watch our slow ass legal system deal with this. It'll be months before it goes to trial and the sentences will, as per usual, not fit the crime very well. I'm sure you dont just stumble across rocket launchers, I'd imagine you have to be seriously involved in criminality before you have contacts that can get you gear like that.

Eliot Rosewater · 13-05-2010 6:01pm

A partial solution: take the drug industry out of the control of violent gangs.

What we do: ban head shops and give more customers and money to the kind of people, like this, who buy rocket launchers.

Hysteria trumps logic again.

theboxer · 13-05-2010 6:17pm

Laminations wrote: »

I'm sure you dont just stumble across rocket launchers, I'd imagine you have to be seriously involved in criminality before you have contacts that can get you gear like that.

You can purchase tanks and rocket launchers online. I think Willie Frazier owns a tank.

https://www.keepshooting.com/keepshooting-store/catalog/shopping_cart.php?osCsid=d19dd32d7a1bf8a9331113b9497f9371

Wolfe Tone · 13-05-2010 8:36pm

This is what I would do to sort these thugs out:

Internment.

The Guards know who these guys are. Arrest them and hold them indefinitely. Then a few of the lower guys who are interned may be willing to enter into some sort of bargain in return for evidence against the big guns. Then have those fcukers severly punished. I'm talking actual life in some ****hole of a prison. Execution would be even better. They have no qualms about executing people themselves. Treat like with like. These guys only understand violence. Let them have it!

“Organized crime constitutes nothing less than a guerrilla war against society”

Spiritoftheseventies · 13-05-2010 9:20pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

This is what I would do to sort these thugs out:

Internment.

The Guards know who these guys are. Arrest them and hold them indefinitely. Then a few of the lower guys who are interned may be willing to enter into some sort of bargain in return for evidence against the big guns. Then have those fcukers severly punished. I'm talking actual life in some ****hole of a prison. Execution would be even better. They have no qualms about executing people themselves. Treat like with like. These guys only understand violence. Let them have it!

“Organized crime constitutes nothing less than a guerrilla war against society”

I think the gaurds are doing a decent enough job here but the question still remains where did they get the moment to buy the launchers.
Serious money must have changed hands here.

Wolfe Tone · 13-05-2010 9:24pm

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

I think the gaurds are doing a decent enough job here but the question still remains where did they get the moment to buy the launchers.
Serious money must have changed hands here.

Seeing as they were found with a bucket load of drugs I would imagine thats how the get their money.... The drugs trade.

The Guards are doing a good job, they just cant get enough evidence to make charges stick. Hence the internment solution I outlined above.

Spiritoftheseventies · 13-05-2010 9:25pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Seeing as they were found with a bucket load of drugs I would imagine thats how the get their money.... The drugs trade.

The Guards are doing a good job, they just cant get enough evidence to make charges stick. Hence the internment solution I outlined above.

any question it came from one of the bank raids?

danman · 13-05-2010 9:27pm

Never thought I'd agree with Mussolini, but internment wouldn't get an objection from this citizen.

Wolfe Tone · 13-05-2010 9:43pm

any question it came from one of the bank raids?

I suppose it could have, they would have had to get their original capital from somewhere before they "invested" it in drugs. Could be a post office or multiple ATM jobs either. Safe to say they didn't earn the money legally.

gurramok · 13-05-2010 10:10pm

Its about time people woke up how dangerous these gangsters scum really are.

People on this forum have spoken of 'private armies' with a political agenda in this country as the number one threat, just look how dangerous the threat to the state from the drug gangs is, after all they are responsible for a few hundred murders(including a few innocents) in the last 15years with a less than 10% conviction rate to combat them.

The Gardai who should be resourced alot more found 2 rocket launchers, how many more heavy weapons are out there we do not know about?

Wolfe Tone · 13-05-2010 11:09pm

gurramok wrote: »

Its about time people woke up how dangerous these gangsters scum really are.

Exactly. These gangsters are holding entire communities hostage and due to the weakness of our laws the Guards are unable to be any more than a minor irritant to these criminals.

People on this forum have spoken of 'private armies' with a political agenda in this country as the number one threat, just look how dangerous the threat to the state from the drug gangs is, after all they are responsible for a few hundred murders(including a few innocents) in the last 15years with a less than 10% conviction rate to combat them.

Its disgraceful. I think the Lyndon Johnson quote I used earlier sums this up perfectly, so much so it deserves to be written twice in this thread.

“Organized crime constitutes nothing less than a guerrilla war against society”

These criminals operate the way they do, so ruthlessly and violently because that is the only thing they understand. The State must respond in kind. Internment is a very controversial thing I know but it is an option I believe that should be seriously considered. The Guards know who the ringleaders are. Give them the power to deal with them.

The Gardai who should be resourced alot more found 2 rocket launchers, how many more heavy weapons are out there we do not know about?

Exactly. The surface is only being scratched. What will it take before the Guards are given the power to deal with these scum? What will it take to form the political will to take the bold, controversial, harsh steps necessary? A full blown battle on out streets? Complete with machine guns and rockets?

Nijmegen · 13-05-2010 11:30pm

Every gang member one hears of being killed or similar tends to be "Known to Gardai." We know who these people are. We know their tactics. Organized crime needs to be dealt with in more the way we dealt with paramilitaries than somebody robbing handbags.

They intimidate witnesses. They have good covers. They do the most damage.

So, let's put them in special courts. Let's increase the usage of intelligence, with secret warrants. Let's lower the burdon of proof.

All of this has been suggested before. Let's bloody well do it!

These people should fear the State. Instead, they laugh at it.

prinz · 14-05-2010 1:12am

Nijmegen wrote: »

So, let's put them in special courts. Let's increase the usage of intelligence, with secret warrants. Let's lower the burdon of proof.

No arguments here, but if any gardaí/minister suggested moves like this you'd have any number of human rights barristers/civil liberties/plenty of boardsies types out banging on against it about our police state etc etc. I feel sad for the country sometimes. Plenty of problems but not the will to correct them.

Dave! · 14-05-2010 1:24am

Surely the Special Criminal Court can deal with these idiots?

Manic Moran · 14-05-2010 2:38am

Can we assume that these dont come cheaply?

Depends on what they are. RPGs are not expensive at all. The video on RTE, of course, doesn't show them, just some big long tube wrapped up in lots of paper. If I had to guess from the size, something like a Carl Gustaf. Old, so not massively expensive. Probably pick one up for a thousand Euro, maybe less.

NTM

Bottle_of_Smoke · 14-05-2010 3:18am

A few years back the guards did a sting operation and (I think it was) limerick criminals tried to buy RPGs, they wanted to take out a witness on the way to court and knew the cars going there would be bulletproof.

Heard this on the news this afternoon. Reporter put forward one theory that gangs might have purchased launchers to take out rival gang in one final swoop.
Can we assume that these dont come cheaply?

I guess if I were a reporter I would certainly report something like that. I wouldn't think so to be honest. They were in a lock-up. Could have been there for 10 years for all we know.

That said I wouldn't be surprised if criminal leaders start making their houses rocket proof now!

Spiritoftheseventies · 14-05-2010 8:00am

These Rocket launchers were/are used by mountain bandits/resistance fighters in secluded mountains. Its another thing entirely to be using them in populated areas.
As such say Gardai would be very keen that these dont fall into the wrong hands.

Sleepy · 14-05-2010 10:24am

Time for an Irish "Untouchables" division of AGS if you ask me.

"They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue."

Spiritoftheseventies · 14-05-2010 1:00pm

This from todays indo. Needless to say a worrying development on both fronts. Other argument is that rockets could be used to penetrate a cash in transit van.

One of the two rocket launchers seized yesterday by gardai, a Russian-made RPG-22, was used by the Real IRA in an attack on MI6 headquarters in London 10 years ago.

On that occasion, the rocket-propelled grenade -- which is capable of penetrating up to a metre of reinforced concrete or armour -- did not cause much damage because the windows of the building housing the British Secret Intelligence Service were heavily reinforced.

The weapon is a light, one-shot throwaway rocket launcher and can penetrate 400mm of armour on a 60-ton tank before exploding.

It is similar to the Swedish AT-4 used by the Irish Defence Forces but has a smaller warhead.

The rocket has a range of about 200 metres and can be bought in the black market in eastern Europe for about €300.

It has been replaced in the Russian Army by a more powerful weapon but it can still be found in other former Eastern Bloc armies.

The other rocket launcher found is a similar disposable type but has not yet been identified.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/weapon-was-used-in-rira-attack-on-mi6-2179670.html

Blobby George · 14-05-2010 1:41pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

A few years back the guards did a sting operation and (I think it was) limerick criminals tried to buy RPGs, they wanted to take out a witness on the way to court and knew the cars going there would be bulletproof.

Ya. These were probably destined for the Limerick gangs again. It's incredible the lengths these scum are going to. Rocket Launchers ffs.

seamus · 14-05-2010 1:49pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Time for an Irish "Untouchables" division of AGS if you ask me.

No, I think it's just time to change our approach.
Clearly while CAB did a good job and the OCU are a good team with limited resources, the problem is that the scum badly outnumber them and we simply don't have the resources to catch these people. And they're getting better funded, better armed and more ruthless every day.

For a long time, the attitude has been that if you catch the drug pushers, the market will die. We have been shown time and time again that this is simply not true. If you catch one pusher, two more pieces of scum will wade in to fill his place and satisfy the demand in the market.

So it's time to target the demand. The vast majority of the demand comes from the relatively lawful part of society - people who are generally decent citizens, but like to partake now and again. So it's time to twist their arms.

Split drugs into two classes - A and B. Class A are always illegal. Class B can be licenced for sale.
Make it a criminal offence to be in possession of class A, regardless of whether it's for use or for sale. If it's for personal use, minimum sentence of 5 years in prison. If it's for sale (i.e more than 2 "portions"), 15 years. It's OK to be in possession of class B unless it can be shown that you bought it from an unlicenced source or you are selling without a licence (I'm thinking of grass here).

Your Foxrock James Doe and Katy French's of this country take the risk of using a few bits of coke here and there because they know at worst they'll get a slap on the wrists and a fine.
However, ultimately they value their freedom more than their drugs and if the punishment is severe enough, they'll ditch the drugs quick smart. Ultimately it's the users who are to blame for the drug gangs - the users create the demand, which fuels the market, which funds the criminals. Even if you only buy €5 a week of this stuff, there's still blood on your hands.

So 5 years for possession is a perfectly proportional sentence for this crime considering the havoc that drug users are indirectly wreaking on society.

Laminations · 14-05-2010 2:27pm

seamus wrote: »

No, I think it's just time to change our approach.
Clearly while CAB did a good job and the OCU are a good team with limited resources, the problem is that the scum badly outnumber them and we simply don't have the resources to catch these people. And they're getting better funded, better armed and more ruthless every day.

For a long time, the attitude has been that if you catch the drug pushers, the market will die. We have been shown time and time again that this is simply not true. If you catch one pusher, two more pieces of scum will wade in to fill his place and satisfy the demand in the market.

So it's time to target the demand. The vast majority of the demand comes from the relatively lawful part of society - people who are generally decent citizens, but like to partake now and again. So it's time to twist their arms.

Split drugs into two classes - A and B. Class A are always illegal. Class B can be licenced for sale.
Make it a criminal offence to be in possession of class A, regardless of whether it's for use or for sale. If it's for personal use, minimum sentence of 5 years in prison. If it's for sale (i.e more than 2 "portions"), 15 years. It's OK to be in possession of class B unless it can be shown that you bought it from an unlicenced source or you are selling without a licence (I'm thinking of grass here).

Your Foxrock James Doe and Katy French's of this country take the risk of using a few bits of coke here and there because they know at worst they'll get a slap on the wrists and a fine.
However, ultimately they value their freedom more than their drugs and if the punishment is severe enough, they'll ditch the drugs quick smart. Ultimately it's the users who are to blame for the drug gangs - the users create the demand, which fuels the market, which funds the criminals. Even if you only buy €5 a week of this stuff, there's still blood on your hands.

So 5 years for possession is a perfectly proportional sentence for this crime considering the havoc that drug users are indirectly wreaking on society.

I think we've moved on from cannabis here to a big illegal market for cocaine. Legalising or decriminalising cannabis would no longer be enough. There is quite an easy way of dealing with the demand for cocaine with people like 'your Foxrock James Doe and Katy French's of this country'. You suggest a way of increasing the adverse side effects of drugs i.e. as well as health/mental problems you suggest increasing punishments. There is another way (a way which I do not condone but I recognise as being potentially effective). Destroy confidence in the market. How? Flood the market with badly cut drugs. After enough people get brain bleeds, no one will trust the cocaine market. Once you damage the certainty of a desirable outcome, people will soon turn off.

Again I do not condone this method but would like to see it discussed.

seamus · 14-05-2010 2:36pm

Laminations wrote: »

Again I do not condone this method but would like to see it discussed.

Well ethical issues aside, if a government had been discovered to be doing something like this, or condoning it, their days would be numbered.

I think the main problem with such a plan is the "it'll never happen to me" effect. The same effect which allows people continue to smoke and drink-drive. I don't know about you, but anti-smoking and the "shock" driving ads have very little effect on me, and seem to have very little effect on anyone I know who smokes. So a few deaths reported in the national media I can't see being any more effective than advertisements. The core market will ignore it and consider themselves indestructible.

But if you consider the enforcement argument - drink-driving rates have come way down since penalty points and mandatory breath-testing. For some reason, we're far more skeptical/in denial when it comes to the possibility of our own death, but we will much more readily fear the possibility of capture/conviction.

Just my 2c.

Laminations · 14-05-2010 2:44pm

seamus wrote: »

Well ethical issues aside, if a government had been discovered to be doing something like this, or condoning it, their days would be numbered.

I think the main problem with such a plan is the "it'll never happen to me" effect. The same effect which allows people continue to smoke and drink-drive. I don't know about you, but anti-smoking and the "shock" driving ads have very little effect on me, and seem to have very little effect on anyone I know who smokes. So a few deaths reported in the national media I can't see being any more effective than advertisements. The core market will ignore it and consider themselves indestructible.

But if you consider the enforcement argument - drink-driving rates have come way down since penalty points and mandatory breath-testing. For some reason, we're far more skeptical/in denial when it comes to the possibility of our own death, but we will much more readily fear the possibility of capture/conviction.

Just my 2c.

The "it'll never happen to me" effect would be greatly reduced if you increase the risks of it happening. If a market goes bad, you get less people investing in it and those that do get burned. I dont condone this approach because while I think they are stupid, I have sympathy for people who take cocaine or heavier drugs. Other people however may think 'dont do the crime if you cant do the time' and see this as a sad consequence of their own choices. Currently people choose to do drugs (not really a choice with the physically addictive ones...well there is initially) because they discount the risk on account of the benefit. Flooding the market with poison that people choose to take would kill the demand, if somewhat literally.

mike65 · 14-05-2010 2:44pm

Whats wrong with a shoot to kill policy?

amacachi · 14-05-2010 2:47pm

Anyone who thinks that Gardaí are making a concerted effort to stop the dealers is either incredibly naive or ignorant. All those "known to the Gardaí" could easily be arrested but it suits the Gardaí not to arrest them for reasons I'll let you all work out yourselves.

prinz · 14-05-2010 2:48pm

amacachi wrote: »

for reasons I'll let you all work out yourselves.

Of course you will :pac:

prinz · 14-05-2010 2:50pm

amacachi wrote: »

All those "known to the Gardaí" could easily be arrested...

It's easy to arrest scumbags, the trick is putting them behind bars for appropriate sentences, and in that there's very little fault to be found with the gardaí.

amacachi · 14-05-2010 2:59pm

prinz wrote: »

It's easy to arrest scumbags, the trick is putting them behind bars for appropriate sentences, and in that there's very little fault to be found with the gardaí.

If they put away the ones who for some reason they haven't bothered with yet, they would lose all their information streams.

PARKHEAD67 · 14-05-2010 7:47pm

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

A partial solution: take the drug industry out of the control of violent gangs.

What we do: ban head shops and give more customers and money to the kind of people, like this, who buy rocket launchers.

Hysteria trumps logic again.

Agree 100%.Personally, a few pints would do me.Not defending head shops in any way but the hysteria is very recent.These head shops have been around for years and no one said a thing.Now everything is back in the hands of the scummy dealers.Previous head shop goers are bound to turn to the dealers to get their fix. Happy days for the BMW driving Dundons and the like.No wonder he can spend 8 grand on his daughters Communion whilst on social welfare benefits.This is one crazy country.It really is.

A worrying development.

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