A new wave of republican violence

DoireNod · 16-04-2010 12:14am

IrishTonyO wrote: »

My fellow countrymen a few miles up the road are my fellow country men because they live on the island of Ireland, but they belong to a different state.

What do you mean 'belong to a different state'?

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Anyway all this makes no difference as you reject the will of the people both North and South...

There is nothing wrong with rejecting the will of the people. People are allowed to hold views which are contrary to that of the majority.

Denerick wrote: »

The nationalist community of Northern Ireland has consistently supported non violence throughout the troubles and overwhelmingly supported the Good Friday agreement.

You make it sound like militant republicanism has never had support. Much of the nationalist and republican community of the whole of Ireland during the troubles was in favour of the Provos and their support didn't end at our shores; they had support around the globe. Naturally of course, this changed during the course of the Troubles and we now see Sinn Féin as the largest party in the North, holding power.

Denerick · 16-04-2010 12:15am

McNulty32 wrote: »

Yet we are still here and wont be going anywhere, and when we go there will be more to take our place.

Revolutionary politics is not for everyone, but there will always be those who make the hard decisions, your moaning wont make us go away, infact your attitude only motivates me more.

The difference is that I believe that the people are sovreign, not fascist thugs like you. Yes, revolutionary politics is not for everyone, because the vast majority of people disagree with revolutionary politics. Saying that 'we're here, deal with it', is not an answer and only confirms my claim that you are indeed a fascist who believes that you and your elitist buddies are the only people able to decide the future of the Irish people.

In short, I find you to be devoid of all reason and basic compassion. You, like all the rest of them, will rot in a British jail for the rest of your life when you're found out. Don't expect anyone to give a **** about you, because you are a totalitarian thug who doesn't represent anyone on this island.

IrishTonyO · 16-04-2010 12:17am

DoireNod wrote: »

What do you mean 'belong to a different state'?

There is nothing wrong with rejecting the will of the people. People are allowed to hold views which are contrary to that of the majority.

You make it sound like militant republicanism has never had support. Much of the nationalist and republican community of the whole of Ireland during the troubles was in favour of the Provos and their support didn't end at our shores; they had support around the globe. Naturally of course, this changed during the course of the Troubles and we now see Sinn Féin as the largest party in the North, holding power.

A different state I live in the Republic of Ireland, in the North you live in United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Surely you understand the concept of state?

Absolutely nothing wrong with not agreeing with the will of the majority however if you are democratic or republican then you abide by the will of the people. If you don't you are in no way republican.

Denerick · 16-04-2010 12:19am

You make it sound like militant republicanism has never had support. Much of the nationalist and republican community of the whole of Ireland during the troubles was in favour of the Provos and their support didn't end at our shores; they had support around the globe. Naturally of course, this changed during the course of the Troubles and we now see Sinn Féin as the largest party in the North, holding power.

No they didn't. The Armalite ballot box strategy emerged in the 80s following the hunger strikes. Despite the enormous well of public sympathy this generated, still the majority of the nationalist community in the north rejected the IRAs violent brand of political activism. At any time during the 80s, Republicans could claim maybe 10-15% of the vote in any general election. This is NOT the mandate of a revolutionary struggle. It is a tiny minority dictating the terms on which the destiny of the nation is to be set.

As a democrat, I'm apalled by the idea that a tiny minority can dictate to me a policy of violence.

The post troubles Sinn Féin are a different beast and have officially renounced violence - I warmly embrace them as part of the modern body politic.

McNulty32 · 16-04-2010 12:21am

Denerick wrote: »

The difference is that I believe that the people are sovreign, not fascist thugs like you. Yes, revolutionary politics is not for everyone, because the vast majority of people disagree with revolutionary politics. Saying that 'we're here, deal with it', is not an answer and only confirms my claim that you are indeed a fascist who believes that you and your elitist buddies are the only people able to decide the future of the Irish people.

In short, I find you to be devoid of all reason and basic compassion. You, like all the rest of them, will rot in a British jail for the rest of your life when you're found out. Don't expect anyone to give a **** about you, because you are a totalitarian thug who doesn't represent anyone on this island.

Yawn, personal insults, nasty comments, is this all you can throw at me, whose the fascist here:D

DoireNod · 16-04-2010 12:23am

IrishTonyO wrote: »

A different state I live in the Republic of Ireland, in the North you live in United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Surely you understand the concept of state?

I certainly am aware of the concept of statehood, thank you. What you've described is living in different states, which is quite distinct from 'belonging to'. People from the North are wholly entitled to claim Irish citizenship, so they do not necessarily 'belong' to another state (the UK) in the way that you seem to be stating. Many see themselves as Irish and not British.

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Absolutely nothing wrong with not agreeing with the will of the majority however if you are democratic or republican then you abide by the will of the people. If you don't you are in no way republican.

That's correct, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with majority opinion. The likes of Wolfe Tone, James Connolly, Michael Collins and Padraig Pearse didn't abide by the will of the majority. Were they not republican?

Denerick · 16-04-2010 12:23am

McNulty32 wrote: »

Yawn, personal insults, nasty comments, is this all you can throw at me, whose the fascist here:D

How is a personal comment to say to somebody who rejects the will of the people and will persue revolutionary politics regardless, that the said person is an elitist fascist and deserves to rot in jail for defying the will of the masses?

Denerick · 16-04-2010 12:25am

DoireNod wrote: »

That's correct, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with majority opinion. The likes of Wolfe Tone, James Connolly, Michael Collins and Padraig Pearse didn't abide by the will of the majority. Were they not republican?

You confuse the difference between taking a military action and holding a personal opinion. I'm a liberal you see, I think everybody is entitled to believe whatever they want to believe, as their conscience dictates. But nobody has a right to use political violence in order to persue a course of action that lacks the consent of the people.

In other words, you can be a Republican without kneecapping people.

IrishTonyO · 16-04-2010 12:26am

DoireNod wrote: »

I certainly am aware of the concept of statehood, thank you. What you've described is living in different states, which is quite distinct from 'belonging to'. People from the North are wholly entitled to claim Irish citizenship, so they do not necessarily 'belong' to another state (the UK) in the way that you seem to be stating. Many see themselves as Irish and not British.

That's correct, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with majority opinion. The likes of Wolfe Tone, James Connolly, Michael Collins and Padraig Pearse didn't abide by the will of the majority. Were they not republican?

if you work who do you pay your taxes to? if you don't work who pays your welfare to you? Rep of Ireland or the UK?
People all over the world can claim Irish citizenship, if they even have grandparents who were Irish, but as you know when you meet some Americans, they are not really Irish.

DoireNod · 16-04-2010 12:36am

Denerick wrote: »

No they didn't.

Many of the supporters of the IRA refused to vote. There is absolutely no doubt that the IRA had considerable support. You can easily see the difference between the support for the likes of the RIRA and the PIRA.

Denerick wrote: »

The post troubles Sinn Féin are a different beast and have officially renounced violence - I warmly embrace them as part of the modern body politic.

Different beast you say? In what ways?

Denerick wrote: »

You confuse the difference between taking a military action and holding a personal opinion. I'm a liberal you see, I think everybody is entitled to believe whatever they want to believe, as their conscience dictates. But nobody has a right to use political violence in order to persue a course of action that lacks the consent of the people.

In other words, you can be a Republican without kneecapping people.

I don't confuse the two at all. I'm merely reiterating the point that it's ok to hold a view that is contrary to that of the majority. Even those who object, but are not militant, seem to be attacked for being 'undemocratic'.

IrishTonyO wrote: »

if you work who do you pay your taxes to? if you don't work who pays your welfare to you? Rep of Ireland or the UK?

Again, you're describing living in two different states.

IrishTonyO wrote: »

People all over the world can claim Irish citizenship, if they even have grandparents who were Irish, but as you know when you meet some Americans, they are not really Irish.

What's your point? Are you saying that people in the North are not really Irish?

anglo_celt · 16-04-2010 12:37am

Denerick wrote: »

Nothing annoys me more than southern tossers trying to have an opinion about the North. I suppose they were right there in the middle of Derry on Bloody Sunday? Makes me sick. (Not aimed at you BTW)

I bet ye are loyalist thugs. :mad:

anglo_celt · 16-04-2010 12:42am

DoireNod wrote: »

Many of the supporters of the IRA refused to vote. There is absolutely no doubt that the IRA had considerable support. You can easily see the difference between the support for the likes of the RIRA and the PIRA.

Different beast you say? In what ways?

I don't confuse the two at all. I'm merely reiterating the point that it's ok to hold a view that is contrary to that of the majority. Even those who object, but are not militant, seem to be attacked for being 'undemocratic'.

Again, you're describing living in two different states.

What's your point? Are you saying that people in the North are not really Irish?

The folk up in the Northern part of our country don't know who they are. They are Brits Scots Irish. With their dark brown eyes they come have come from the Middle East:D

anglo_celt · 16-04-2010 12:46am

IrishTonyO wrote: »

if you work who do you pay your taxes to? if you don't work who pays your welfare to you? Rep of Ireland or the UK?
People all over the world can claim Irish citizenship, if they even have grandparents who were Irish, but as you know when you meet some Americans, they are not really Irish.

That true. When ex Taoiseach Albert Reynolds gave out free Irish Passports to the Arabs.

Denerick · 16-04-2010 12:51am

DoireNod wrote: »

Many of the supporters of the IRA refused to vote. There is absolutely no doubt that the IRA had considerable support. You can easily see the difference between the support for the likes of the RIRA and the PIRA.

Not in the 80s. Most IRA supporters voted, it was official policy. I'm not saying that in some areas Republicans didn't have significant support, but as a plurality of the nationalist population they were less than half.

Different beast you say? In what ways?

They have accepted the Good Friday agreement and have renounced violence. Furthermore their support is due to both a collapse in confidence for the SDLP (They struggled to replace the charisma, vision and dynamism of John Hume, the great nationalist hero of the Troubles) and the underlying sympathy most people (Including myself) have for Republican ideals, but who happen to reject the violent manifestation of those beliefs.

anglo_celt · 16-04-2010 12:56am

IrishTonyO wrote: »

What you describe is not politics at all!
We will a reserve a place for you in the Natural History museum along with the other dinosaurs.

And the fact that democratic people motive you more only simply shows you are in no way democratic but more fascist as you wish to impose your very minority opinion on the majority.

If you are confident of your views and the support you think you have, then you would be involved in legitimate politics, however when you realise you are outdated, outmoded and unwanted you resort to terror. And you wonder why people do not support you, do not want you. Ireland as a whole country both North and South has said no, no kindly get the message.

What planet are you on? We are no longer a democratic country. Not since many voted Yes to the Lisbon Treaty and sold Ireland away. Biffo and Co + many other of his cronies said it would be good for Ireland. More jobs,that's a joke when 80,000 Irish young people are leaving. Abandon all hope. Ireland is finished.

anglo_celt · 16-04-2010 12:59am

k_mac wrote: »

I'd say he's from Wicklow but couldn't spell it in Irish so abbreviated it. He's hardcore republican.

Wrong.

anglo_celt · 16-04-2010 1:29am

anglo_celt wrote: »

What planet are you on? We are no longer a democratic country. Not since many voted Yes to the Lisbon Treaty and sold Ireland away. Biffo and Co + many other of his cronies said it would be good for Ireland. More jobs,that's a joke when 80,000 Irish young people are leaving. Abandon all hope. Ireland is finished. We Irish or whats left of us by 2025 will be in the minority with Africans in the majority at least 60% to our 30%

Dannyboy83 · 16-04-2010 1:46am

DoireNod wrote: »

What's your point? Are you saying that people in the North are not really Irish?

I'm sure many of them are ethnic Irish, aswell as ethnic English, Scottish & whatever else.
Culturally, they are not Irish tho.
Nor are they British.

They are Northern Irish. I think it's quite distinct.

I'm sure if the RIRA conquered Northumbria or Somerset or Nantes or Bavaria, politically they may be Irish, ethnically, they would be English or French or German, but only the naive or the deluded would assert that they are culturally Irish.

I've heard them say the same things themselves, both nationalists and unionists. I think the hell that they have been through and the peace they have achieved, has binded them in a certain way that is not applicable to the Republic or Britain, whatever their disagreements might be.

I've seen unionists and nationalists both refer to non-Northern Irish as outsiders, even while arguing and disagreeing. That applies to Southerners, English, Scottish as much as it applies to German or Norwegians.

That's why, when groups such as the RIRA or whoever, go into their country and use violence to enforce their objectives, I can't really distinguish between that and the Taliban entering Afghanistan or Pakistan and using violence to enforce their objectives on a population which by and large wants no part in it apart from a small minority.

FTA69 has far more intricate knowledge on the North than I could ever hope to have and is probably about as far away from an apologist as you could get, someone who the dissident supporters here definitely ought to be listening to, and he has said in this thread:

FTA69 wrote:

If Irish Republicanism is ever to become viable as a supported political ideology it must adapt itself in order to become relevant to the issues of today, and the south is instrumental in that; if Republicans can't come up with answers and analyses of the likes of unemployment, NAMA and all the rotten manifestations of Irish (and global) capitalism then it will remain a complete irrelevance.

All I can see so far from the supporters of the dissidents, is that they are fighting the last battle; not the current one.
You're talking about trench warfare when you should be figuring out how to deal with Blitzkreig.
You're talking about rubber bullets, collusion, civil rights but that's all from the last battle and so are the tactics.
The people who can figure out how to deal with unemployment, how to deal with NAMA, how to run a normal health service, how to develop an all island economy, how to tackle the issues relevant to today - they'll be the people who will go forward and be remembered , and the mindless freaks shooting up the place will continue to be irrelevant.

p.s. I find it ironic that Gerry Adams is criticised and his assassination is even ostensibly supported, when he is the one actually taking the fight forward and trying to figure out the new tactics.
Can the dissidents distinguish between 'compromised' and 'compromise'?

anglo_celt · 16-04-2010 2:42am

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm sure many of them are ethnic Irish, aswell as ethnic English, Scottish & whatever else.
Culturally, they are not Irish tho.
Nor are they British.

They are Northern Irish. I think it's quite distinct.

I'm sure if the RIRA conquered Northumbria or Somerset or Nantes or Bavaria, politically they may be Irish, ethnically, they would be English or French or German, but only the naive or the deluded would assert that they are culturally Irish.

I've heard them say the same things themselves, both nationalists and unionists. I think the hell that they have been through and the peace they have achieved, has binded them in a certain way that is not applicable to the Republic or Britain, whatever their disagreements might be.

I've seen unionists and nationalists both refer to non-Northern Irish as outsiders, even while arguing and disagreeing. That applies to Southerners, English, Scottish as much as it applies to German or Norwegians.

That's why, when groups such as the RIRA or whoever, go into their country and use violence to enforce their objectives, I can't really distinguish between that and the Taliban entering Afghanistan or Pakistan and using violence to enforce their objectives on a population which by and large wants no part in it apart from a small minority.

FTA69 has far more intricate knowledge on the North than I could ever hope to have and is probably about as far away from an apologist as you could get, someone who the dissident supporters here definitely ought to be listening to, and he has said in this thread:

All I can see so far from the supporters of the dissidents, is that they are fighting the last battle; not the current one.
You're talking about trench warfare when you should be figuring out how to deal with Blitzkreig.
You're talking about rubber bullets, collusion, civil rights but that's all from the last battle and so are the tactics.
The people who can figure out how to deal with unemployment, how to deal with NAMA, how to run a normal health service, how to develop an all island economy, how to tackle the issues relevant to today - they'll be the people who will go forward and be remembered , and the mindless freaks shooting up the place will continue to be irrelevant.

p.s. I find it ironic that Gerry Adams is criticised and his assassination is even ostensibly supported, when he is the one actually taking the fight forward and trying to figure out the new tactics.
Can the dissidents distinguish between 'compromised' and 'compromise'?

Dear DannyBoy Are you an Ulster Scot fan? Because Gerry Adams and Martin MacGuinness are both Ulster Scots. Not all Ulster Scots were true blue Protestants. Many were Roman Catholics too. And not all of us down South are 100% Irish either. Very little Irish people can actually claim to be 100% Irish. The rest of us came by way the Gauls,The Norsemen and the Vikings, the Spanish and the British.What a melting pot. We are at best related to the rest of Europe than Britain.

anglo_celt · 16-04-2010 2:56am

k_mac wrote: »

I call them criminals and thieves because thats all they are. Its well known that dissident republicans are heavily involved in smuggling and drug dealing to fund their campaign. They also murder innocent people to make their point. The IRA was originally formed to protect the rights of catholics in the North. This mission has been completed. All thats left now are power hungry sociopaths who don't have the respect of anyone. There will be no Good Friday agreement for you when you are caught. You will go to jail for a long time. There will be no public outcry when you go on hunger strike because you have no support from the people of this country. You will pay for your crimes like the criminals that you are.

You got that wrong. The Dissidents and the PIRA and any other IRAs along with the combined loyalist terrorists are all involved in criminal activities. Sein Fein is actually Mefein

OhNoYouDidn't · 16-04-2010 9:59am

getz wrote: »

during the last war republicans were trained and armed by nazi germany,one german sub was sunk off the west coast of ireland delivering arms to the IRA

and they got help from the US and Russia at the time. So were they fascist, capitalist and communist all at the same time?

its specious reasoning.

MagicSean · 16-04-2010 10:17am

anglo_celt wrote: »

You got that wrong. The Dissidents and the PIRA and any other IRAs along with the combined loyalist terrorists are all involved in criminal activities. Sein Fein is actually Mefein

What did I get wrong? Isn't that what I said?

OhNoYouDidn't · 16-04-2010 10:25am

anglo_celt wrote: »

You got that wrong. The Dissidents and the PIRA and any other IRAs along with the combined loyalist terrorists are all involved in criminal activities. Sein Fein is actually Mefein

So you are saying the reason people join these groups is to make money?

anglo_celt · 16-04-2010 10:33am

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So you are saying the reason people join these groups is to make money?

K_Mac said I was a hardcore Republican. No way.

McNulty32 · 16-04-2010 10:38am

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So you are saying the reason people join these groups is to make money?

Yes they all the join the IRA to sell drugs and smuggle, moronic, there are plenty of gangs out there up to their necks in criminality, you dont need waste your time becoming a republican to do so

Denerick · 16-04-2010 11:05am

McNulty32 wrote: »

Yes they all the join the IRA to sell drugs and smuggle, moronic, there are plenty of gangs out there up to their necks in criminality, you dont need waste your time becoming a republican to do so

Why do you ignore unpalatable facts?

MagicSean · 16-04-2010 11:24am

McNulty32 wrote: »

Yes they all the join the IRA to sell drugs and smuggle, moronic, there are plenty of gangs out there up to their necks in criminality, you dont need waste your time becoming a republican to do so

But the organisation and military approach by paramilitaries make them better at committing crime. They tend to have a discipline which is absent in regular criminal gangs.

anglo_celt · 16-04-2010 11:37am

k_mac wrote: »

But the organisation and military approach by paramilitaries make them better at committing crime. They tend to have a discipline which is absent in regular criminal gangs.

Gerry Adams was trained by members of a religious order in Northern Ireland. I am not going to name that order of priests. But many were involved in the conflict during the troubled times in Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland Government well knew all about it.

DoireNod · 16-04-2010 11:43am

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm sure many of them are ethnic Irish, aswell as ethnic English, Scottish & whatever else.
Culturally, they are not Irish tho.
Nor are they British.

They are Northern Irish. I think it's quite distinct.

That's complete and utter nonsense, but gladly, your personal prejudices do not dictate what the Irish people in the North see themselves as. Not culturally Irish? Can you please explain, because it's an offensive thing to say. Is someone from Donegal more Irish than someone born minutes across the border in Derry, for example? Not in my opinion.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm sure if the RIRA conquered Northumbria or Somerset or Nantes or Bavaria, politically they may be Irish, ethnically, they would be English or French or German, but only the naive or the deluded would assert that they are culturally Irish.

I don't see how this relates to the identity of Irish people in the North. You're talking about a theoretical invading entity trying to force their culture on another. Oh I see, you're talking about the British Empire coming into Ireland?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I've heard them say the same things themselves, both nationalists and unionists. I think the hell that they have been through and the peace they have achieved, has binded them in a certain way that is not applicable to the Republic or Britain, whatever their disagreements might be.

I've seen unionists and nationalists both refer to non-Northern Irish as outsiders, even while arguing and disagreeing. That applies to Southerners, English, Scottish as much as it applies to German or Norwegians.

Both sides of the community suffered the same kind of atrocities during the Troubles; that's what makes us different to people in the Republic, but that doesn't mean people don't see themselves as Irish or that they have now assumed a new identity. Nationalists often talk of the South as having abandoned them, viewing them as nothing more than 'The Black North', whereas unionists have basically been told by the likes of Paisley et.al. that the South is the root of all evil. Most unionists would see the south as a different country, but for most nationalists in the North, the border does not exist and they see themselves as no different to an Irish person born in Cork.

dlofnep · 16-04-2010 12:32pm

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm sure many of them are ethnic Irish, aswell as ethnic English, Scottish & whatever else.
Culturally, they are not Irish tho.
Nor are they British.

They are Northern Irish. I think it's quite distinct.

Culturally, they are not Irish? You're speaking on behalf of the entire population of the north, are you?

This "Northern Irish" culture of you speak for, only received 18% from respondents in a recent BBC survey. 42% considered themselves Irish, and 39% British. It's quite clear that this northern Irish identity that you are putting forward is not one held by many people in the north.

IrishTonyO · 16-04-2010 12:34pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Culturally, they are not Irish? You're speaking on behalf of the entire population of the north, are you?

This "Northern Irish" culture of you speak for, only received 18% from respondents in a recent BBC survey. 42% considered themselves Irish, and 39% British. It's quite clear that this northern Irish identity that you are putting forward is not one held by many people in the north.

Can we have the source please

MagicSean · 16-04-2010 12:44pm

anglo_celt wrote: »

Gerry Adams was trained by members of a religious order in Northern Ireland. I am not going to name that order of priests. But many were involved in the conflict during the troubled times in Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland Government well knew all about it.

I fail to see what that has to do with anything. Religious people commit crimes too.

dlofnep · 16-04-2010 12:53pm

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Can we have the source please

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8567619.stm

It was actually from the Belfast telegraph, a unionist paper. My apologies.

T runner · 16-04-2010 1:04pm

dlofnep wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8567619.stm

It was actually from the Belfast telegraph, a unionist paper. My apologies.

The Irish identity will stay fairly constant because it has been there consistantly over long periods of time. The British identity is newer and has only gained popularity since the 30's.

The British based identity in my opinion is really an "anything but Irish identity".

Thus it could be dropped for an exclusively "northern Irish" identity or an Ulster identity. The marriage of NI to Britain is a marriage of convenience. They are inlaws whose identity would be lost with a divorce.

The same is not possible for NIs more "natural" relationship with and within Ireland.

MagicSean · 16-04-2010 1:06pm

dlofnep wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8567619.stm

It was actually from the Belfast telegraph, a unionist paper. My apologies.

The maths in that poll don't really add up. Where did they get the figure of 55%?

thebaldsoprano · 16-04-2010 1:06pm

McNulty32 wrote: »

Well republicans are kinda of like the Jewish people, they are still waiting on their Christ like we are still waiting on the Republic, the wishes of people manipulated by the British and 26 county states dont factor much in our thinking, if there was any real democracy and not the carefully constructed kind we have in effect at present...

That is an absolutely extraordinary bit of 'reasoning' there, McNulty32. Has it occoured to you that you might be the one who is being manipulated rather than everyone else in Ireland, North and South?

IrishTonyO · 16-04-2010 1:07pm

k_mac wrote: »

The maths in that poll don't really add up. Where did they get the figure of 55%?

Yeah was trying to figure that out myself.

dlofnep · 16-04-2010 1:18pm

k_mac wrote: »

The maths in that poll don't really add up. Where did they get the figure of 55%?

That was a separate question.

Dannyboy83 · 16-04-2010 2:15pm

DoireNod wrote: »

That's complete and utter nonsense, but gladly, your personal prejudices do not dictate what the Irish people in the North see themselves as. Not culturally Irish? Can you please explain, because it's an offensive thing to say. Is someone from Donegal more Irish than someone born minutes across the border in Derry, for example? Not in my opinion.

In my opinion, yes, someone who grows up in Donegal and experiences Irish culture, education, state services, Gardai, whatever else as opposed to Northern Irish culture, NI education system, NI state services, PSNI.

I'm not sure why you disagree here. It's not ground breaking.
These people who grew up and reside in the North, both nationalist and unionist, always make the same point.

If you join in a debate with a group of lads from Kerry, Dublin and Mayo, you feel like you are talking with Irish people.
If you join in a debate with a group of lads from anywhere in the North, I always feel like I am speaking with a distinctly different people, the same as if I was speaking to someone from Bangor in Wales or a New Yorker who has lived in Ireland for 10 years, the feeling always seems mutual.
The only exception to the rule would be somebody who had grown up in the Republic and emigrated to the North. Obviously then they are from the same culture.

The fact that they are "a few minutes across a border" has nothing to do with it. It's the fact that they are "across a border".

Would you say that the culture in the Vatican is the same as in Rome?
Would you say that the culture in North Korea is the same as South Korea?
Checnya & St.Petersburg?
Glasgow & London?
Quebec & Los Angeles?
Cyprus?

I don't see how proximity relates to the cultural identity of ethnic Irish people in the North.

You're talking about a theoretical invading entity trying to force their culture on another. Oh I see, you're talking about the British Empire coming into Ireland?

Yes, I am.
The British forcing their culture on the North.
Or Southerners forcing their culture on the North.
I think you missed my point, LOL.

Both sides of the community suffered the same kind of atrocities during the Troubles; that's what makes us different to people in the Republic, but that doesn't mean people don't see themselves as Irish or that they have now assumed a new identity.

Do you ever meet an American who claimed to be Irish?
Boston Irish for example?
They think they are Irish, they want to be Irish, then they come here and they realise nothing could be further from the truth.
They then understand that they are ethnic Irish Americans.

I have cousins in Australia who grew up in Ireland until about 8 or 9, then emigrated to Australia. Now late 20s, ask them if they are Irish or Australian and they will say Australian.

Nationalists often talk of the South as having abandoned them, viewing them as nothing more than 'The Black North',

I don't see how I could have personally abandoned them - I never had anything to do with them.
I grew up in Cork. It's a different country than I grew up in.

whereas unionists have basically been told by the likes of Paisley et.al. that the South is the root of all evil.

I don't know about the root of all evil.
He did talk about "Home Rule/Rome Rule" etc.
But we have the Murphy and Ryan reports now, which has proved that, in actual fact, he wasn't far wrong.

That's not to say that they have had any better or more civilised system than we have had, they haven't.
But I've no idea why a unionist would voluntarily jump out of the frying pan and into the fire!

Most unionists would see the south as a different country, but for most nationalists in the North, the border does not exist and they see themselves as no different to an Irish person born in Cork.

Agree about the unionists.
Disagree about the nationalists.

The only people I have ever heard say that there is no border etc. are those who wish it to be so, who wish for Ireland to be reunified etc. and more often than not, those people are from the South anyway!

Dannyboy83 · 16-04-2010 2:31pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Culturally, they are not Irish? You're speaking on behalf of the entire population of the north, are you?

This "Northern Irish" culture of you speak for, only received 18% from respondents in a recent BBC survey. 42% considered themselves Irish, and 39% British. It's quite clear that this northern Irish identity that you are putting forward is not one held by many people in the north.

I, as an Irish man, who grew up in Cork city in the Republic of Ireland am saying, that those people I have encountered from Northern Ireland feeling as distinctly different from Southern Irish, as do the people from York or Aberdeen or Brittany or Munich or the Polish immigrants.
In fact, the Polish immigrants are accepting of our culture and meld with our own to a certain extent, like I've heard Lithuanians with Cork accents. They feel way more Irish than anyone I ever met from the North.

Perhaps you grew up in a family with a strong republican tradition or perhaps you have many relatives in the North, so you have a slightly distorted view of reality.

I'm sure you could conduct a similar survey in the US, and you would get equally romantic/optimistic statistics back.
Transport a boatload of them here and let the culture shock set in.
Then we will see who is Irish:D

What would be interesting would be to take a busload of kids from Cork or Dublin or Galway or Limerick up to the North.
Then ask them if it feels Irish to them?

Interesting results to be had I'm sure.

DoireNod · 16-04-2010 2:32pm

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

In my opinion, yes, someone who grows up in Donegal and experiences Irish culture, education, state services, Gardai, whatever else as opposed to Northern Irish culture, NI education system, NI state services, PSNI.

What the hell is 'Northern Irish culture' exactly? With regard to different education, that's clutching at straws. The school where I was taught, St. Columb's College in Derry, taught me Irish history and Irish is one of the many languages that is taught. I'm glad this notional distinction is just your opinion.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't see how proximity relates to the cultural identity of ethnic Irish people in the North.

Culture transcends arbitrary borders I'm afraid. It's as simple as that. That's why the Irish language is spoken by quite a few across the North, why Gaelic Football and Hurling are popular sports, why Irish history is taught in schools, why Irish music and poetry is learned.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Do you ever meet an American who claimed to be Irish?
Boston Irish for example?
They think they are Irish, they want to be Irish, then they come here and they realise nothing could be further from the truth.
They then understand that they are ethnic Irish Americans.

I genuinely can't help thinking that you're taking the piss by comparing Irish Americans to Irish people actually born on the island

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't see how I could have personally abandoned them - I never had anything to do with them.

I never said they hold you personally accountable.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Disagree about the nationalists.

The only people I have ever heard say that there is no border etc. are those who wish it to be so, who wish for Ireland to be reunified etc. and more often than not, those people are from the South anyway!

Nationalists, by definition aspire to Irish re-unification. They wish there was no border. Imagine that!

Dannyboy83 · 16-04-2010 2:44pm

DoireNod wrote: »

What the hell is 'Northern Irish culture' exactly? With regard to different education, that's clutching at straws. The school where I was taught, St. Columb's College in Derry, taught me Irish history and Irish is one of the many languages that is taught. I'm glad this notional distinction is just your opinion.

You get taught Irish history in Poland too.
It is still a different society, no matter how much you want it.

The vast majority of Irish people are mono-lingual and don't know a word of Irish.
If Northerners learn Irish, good for them - I'd consider it a complete waste of time personally, better to learn a living and relevant language.

I don't think I am the one clutching at straws here.

Culture transcends arbitrary borders I'm afraid. It's as simple as that. That's why the Irish language is spoken by quite a few across the North, why Gaelic Football and Hurling are popular sports, why Irish history is taught in schools, why Irish music and poetry is learned.

Seems like an old fashioned and romantic notion of Irishness.
We have a French lad in work, he doesn't wear Garlic cloves or a beret, still French tho.

Show me Cork people playing Irish music or saying Irish poetry - I don't know any tbh.
In terms of sport, the lads here in work talk about Rugby primarily, then soccer and a bit of golf. Personally, I've no interest in any of them, I'm into powerlifting and strongman.
My father loves hurling and GAA alrite, but he prefers golf and the premier league.

I genuinely can't help thinking that you're taking the piss by comparing Irish Americans to Irish people actually born on the island

That's too bad.
It probably sucks for you being from Derry, but most people I know would refer to you as "the Northern Irish lad", not "the Irish lad".

I never said they hold you personally accountable.

I know.
I'm saying that personally, it feels as relevant as a bunch of Irish immigrants in Liverpool saying we abandoned them.

Nationalists, by definition aspire to Irish re-unification. They wish there was no border. Imagine that!

So if you agree that you are a nationalist, then you have to admit you are biased from day one.
I'd like to see Ireland united one day, in a Swiss style system with regions of autonomy, not by the gun tho, and i'd rather be pragmatic and realistic about it.
It has to be economically viable, otherwise forget it.
People in the North have the NHS, in the south we have to pay €60 just to attend the fecking GP!

LordSutch · 16-04-2010 3:32pm

T runner wrote: »

The British based identity in my opinion is really an "anything but Irish identity".

Thus it could be dropped for an exclusively "northern Irish" identity or an Ulster identity. The marriage of NI to Britain is a marriage of convenience. They are inlaws whose identity would be lost with a divorce.

The same is not possible for NIs more "natural" relationship with and within Ireland.

But is it? surely the majority of people from NI are descended from Britain > Hence the connections and allegience to the island next door, (as opposed to an allegiance to the Republic) which at its inception was anything but a welcome place for returning troops in 1918. Add to that the very very strong Roman Catholic overtones at the cenception of the Southern State which would have been a total anathema to the very British Pro-Unionist people of the North.

I say the marriage between NI & Britain is much deeper that mere 'convienenience'.

MagicSean · 16-04-2010 4:09pm

Camelot wrote: »

But is it? surely the majority of people from NI are descended from Britain > Hence the connections and allegience to the island next door, (as opposed to an allegiance to the Republic) which at its inception was anything but a welcome place for returning troops in 1918. Add to that the very very strong Roman Catholic overtones at the cenception of the Southern State which would have been a total anathema to the very British Pro-Unionist people of the North.

I say the marriage between NI & Britain is much deeper that mere 'convienenience'.

I would think the majority of citizens at the inception of NI were descended from Irish and were Roman Catholic.

LordSutch · 16-04-2010 7:52pm

You cannot be serious!

MagicSean · 16-04-2010 7:56pm

Camelot wrote: »

You cannot be serious!

Great response. Any particular reason?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 16-04-2010 8:02pm

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

In my opinion, yes, someone who grows up in Donegal and experiences Irish culture, education, state services, Gardai, whatever else as opposed to Northern Irish culture, NI education system, NI state services, PSNI.

I'm not sure why you disagree here. It's not ground breaking.
These people who grew up and reside in the North, both nationalist and unionist, always make the same point.

If you join in a debate with a group of lads from Kerry, Dublin and Mayo, you feel like you are talking with Irish people.
If you join in a debate with a group of lads from anywhere in the North, I always feel like I am speaking with a distinctly different people, the same as if I was speaking to someone from Bangor in Wales or a New Yorker who has lived in Ireland for 10 years, the feeling always seems mutual.
The only exception to the rule would be somebody who had grown up in the Republic and emigrated to the North. Obviously then they are from the same culture.

The fact that they are "a few minutes across a border" has nothing to do with it. It's the fact that they are "across a border".

Would you say that the culture in the Vatican is the same as in Rome?
Would you say that the culture in North Korea is the same as South Korea?
Checnya & St.Petersburg?
Glasgow & London?
Quebec & Los Angeles?
Cyprus?

I don't see how proximity relates to the cultural identity of ethnic Irish people in the North.

Yes, I am.
The British forcing their culture on the North.
Or Southerners forcing their culture on the North.
I think you missed my point, LOL.

Do you ever meet an American who claimed to be Irish?
Boston Irish for example?
They think they are Irish, they want to be Irish, then they come here and they realise nothing could be further from the truth.
They then understand that they are ethnic Irish Americans.

I have cousins in Australia who grew up in Ireland until about 8 or 9, then emigrated to Australia. Now late 20s, ask them if they are Irish or Australian and they will say Australian.

I don't see how I could have personally abandoned them - I never had anything to do with them.
I grew up in Cork. It's a different country than I grew up in.

I don't know about the root of all evil.
He did talk about "Home Rule/Rome Rule" etc.
But we have the Murphy and Ryan reports now, which has proved that, in actual fact, he wasn't far wrong.

That's not to say that they have had any better or more civilised system than we have had, they haven't.
But I've no idea why a unionist would voluntarily jump out of the frying pan and into the fire!

Agree about the unionists.
Disagree about the nationalists.

The only people I have ever heard say that there is no border etc. are those who wish it to be so, who wish for Ireland to be reunified etc. and more often than not, those people are from the South anyway!

Have lived in the north for the past 2years, regarding nationalists you are completely wrong. Doirenod/dnoflep have it spot on.

I would also say unionists are much more similar to those from the 26 than they are to english/scottish/welsh

Denerick · 16-04-2010 8:03pm

k_mac wrote: »

I would think the majority of citizens at the inception of NI were descended from Irish and were Roman Catholic.

What is 'Irish' anyway? Is an Irish person a Viking, a Norman, A Frenchman, A Spanishman, An Englishman??? This pathetic identification with some ancient Gaelic idyll is one of the sickening aspects of Republicanism.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 16-04-2010 8:08pm

k_mac wrote: »

Great response. Any particular reason?

THey weren't, large minority but certainly not the majority. Perhaps did you mean before the plantations?

Dannyboy83 · 16-04-2010 10:52pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Have lived in the north for the past 2years, regarding nationalists you are completely wrong. Doirenod/dnoflep have it spot on.

I would also say unionists are much more similar to those from the 26 than they are to english/scottish/welsh

Ok, I will concede the point as you obviously know far more of them than I do after living in their country for 2 years, but again, that just re-enforces the gap in my mind.
You might aswell be telling me about people in the Isle of Mann or Jersey, lol.
Different country to the one I grew up in & live in.

If you ever meet a gang of norries abroad or at a gig in Dumpland or something, you always feel like you are on the outside - and I mean political views aside. You can't just fit in with them the same way you would with a bunch of lads from Tipp or Galway or something.

They have more in common with each other than they do with us.

A new wave of republican violence

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