Shock Collars

Whispered · 16-10-2009 5:13pm #1

I just wanted peoples opinions on this. Are they cruel? Is it ok to use them in certain circumstances? Is it ever a good idea to train your dog through pain?

I know of one woman who got one as her dog was misbehaving (barking) she out it on, dog barked, got a shock and emptied his bowels on the floor. How someone can say it is not cruel when seeing something like that is beyond me.

Personally I don't agree with them, and it saddens me to see them recommended as a training aid.

What do the rest of you think?

Ruu_Old · 16-10-2009 5:18pm

Never heard of them used for problems like barking, seems madness to me. Why not try to figure out why the dog is barking? Is he/she hungry, bored, upset, something else? My brother has one but it is just around the boundary (wire goes around the area) of his property to stop the dog going out onto the road or into the field of cattle.

Mollywolly · 16-10-2009 5:43pm

Seems barbaric to me and I can't imagine a time when I would ever consider using one. It's never a good idea to train a dog using threats/pain, or at least that's what I've always been told.

Sigma Force · 16-10-2009 6:14pm

Bark collars are cruel, dogs bark birds fly fish swim.
If a dog is barking non stop then owners should deal with the bones of the issue (scuse the pun).

Shock collars ie fence ones aren't ideal but a lot less painful then getting a crushed pelvis by a car and a last resort until proper fencing can be sorted but bark collars are another thing.

peasant · 16-10-2009 6:39pm

Never mind painful or cruel ...these things are dangerous as "training aids"

Dogs learn by association, meaning they combine sights, sounds, smells, and many other things into the learning experience. (This is also why they will perform a "trick" perfectly in your living room where you trained it and look at you with great puzzlement when you ask them to do it somewhere else where they've never done it before)

For particularly traumatic experiences the associations become very strong.

Now in theory it all sounds very dandy ...dog barks, dog gets shocked, dog shuts up.

In practice it might go one of the following ways though:

1) Dog barks ...dog gets shocked ...dog is frightened, feels it is under attack, barks even more, goes into a frenzy (until the dog drops dead from a heart attack or the shocker runs out of battery)

2) Dog barks ..dog gets shocked. But while it gets shocked a child was running past. Now the dog associates the pain not with the bark but with the running child and will hate running children from now on

These are just two simple examples for anti-barking training with shock collars ...now imagine the damage you could do while training complicated commands to your dog by means of a shock collar. Get the timing slightly wrong or create a wrong association and the dog could become totally confused and unhandleable within a few applications.

Things of the devil, they are.

roxiesmammy · 16-10-2009 7:10pm

Guineapigrescue wrote: »

Bark collars are cruel, dogs bark birds fly fish swim.
If a dog is barking non stop then owners should deal with the bones of the issue (scuse the pun).

Shock collars ie fence ones aren't ideal but a lot less painful then getting a crushed pelvis by a car and a last resort until proper fencing can be sorted but bark collars are another thing.

dont agree with the shock collars either. What happens if dog gets out he will prob be to scared to go through the fence again thats if the shock hasnt made him run in the opposite direction in pain. Also while the fence might stop your dog gettin out whats to stop a dog thief gettin your dog.

Jumpy · 16-10-2009 7:14pm

Has anyone actually tried these? They are not painful, they give you what feels like a pinch.

Its probably a surprise to the dog but there is no way I would consider the amount of shock they deliver to be cruel.

I have hurt myself more from touching a car door handle.

peasant · 16-10-2009 7:18pm

Jumpy wrote: »

I have hurt myself more from touching a car door handle.

Yeah ...but you didn't go and attack the next innocent bystander because of that pain ...your dog just might :pac:

smilerf · 16-10-2009 8:39pm

cruel no matter what the circumstances!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

9wetfckx43j5rg · 16-10-2009 8:52pm

Incredibly cruel, used by incredibly lazy people who don't bother to train their dog and see it as a quick fix. Can only understand possibly using them as a boundry device for a dog that lives in a very large place like a farm when it's possible they may get loose and onto a road.

There are other more humane methods lazy people can use like the lemon burster collar which sprays a burst of lemon scented air from a box on the collar. Dog dislikes it and stops barking. Can only be used in homes with one dog.

FAYESY · 16-10-2009 9:27pm

Ok lads - watching this thread closely as threads like this tend to get out of hand!

Also moving it to welfare!

Behave or I will be banning people!

Jumpy · 17-10-2009 12:47am

peasant wrote: »

Yeah ...but you didn't go and attack the next innocent bystander because of that pain ...your dog just might :pac:

But there isnt any pain. Before you jump to conclusions on these collars put one on.
Its no taser. It causes a muscle twitch which I could definitely understand would be scary to an animal but its far from pain.
I would rather have one of these on than someone spraying citrus in my face.

Unless its satsuma, I love satsumas.

9wetfckx43j5rg · 17-10-2009 12:48am

And I would much rather have citrus sprayed in my face than be electrocuted.

star-pants · 17-10-2009 11:21am

Jumpy wrote: »

But there isnt any pain. Before you jump to conclusions on these collars put one on.
Its no taser. It causes a muscle twitch which I could definitely understand would be scary to an animal but its far from pain.

May I ask - would you use one on a child?

MistyCheese · 17-10-2009 2:09pm

Jumpy wrote: »

But there isnt any pain.
Its no taser. It causes a muscle twitch which I could definitely understand would be scary to an animal but its far from pain.

Okay, so you're not training your dog through pain, but you are training the dog through fear.

Jumpy wrote: »

I would rather have one of these on than someone spraying citrus in my face.

Well, I know I wouldn't like to get lemon juice in my eye!

aoife2k · 17-10-2009 4:23pm

I think bark collars are just the cruelest things you could get. However, I do have a Pet Safe Fence for my 6 month old boxer pup... She's been shocked twice and that was enough for her to learn where she can and can't go. She associates the little flags with the shock so within an hour of puttin the collar on she knew exactly where she couldn't go.

I think the good thing about it is that it does not shock straight away, there is a beep and it vibrates if she gets close, if she ventures further then it will shock (which she doesn't do!)

irish setter · 17-10-2009 11:20pm

there a device created to make quick results in dog training issues. in the wrong hands will do more damage than good. in the right hands they will work for someone who don't have the skill or patience to train a dog properly. in proper training the dog learns trust and respect for the handler and a proper dog / human bond is created. i can't see how an e-collar can do this

Jumpy · 19-10-2009 11:53am

MistyCheese wrote: »

Okay, so you're not training your dog through pain, but you are training the dog through fear.

Well, I know I wouldn't like to get lemon juice in my eye!

I dont have a dog! I put on someone elses. I actually used to think they were cruel. I dont now.

ButterflyGirl23 · 19-10-2009 12:47pm

Jumpy wrote: »

Has anyone actually tried these? They are not painful, they give you what feels like a pinch.

Its probably a surprise to the dog but there is no way I would consider the amount of shock they deliver to be cruel.

I have hurt myself more from touching a car door handle.

Probably a surprise?? Em no it is painful for the dog. I did a dog training course and we learnt how cruel these collars are and no decent dog trainer or dog owner would use them.

Also I would never spray a dog with citrus, that is very cruel. I deal with difficult dogs all the time and by remaining patient with them and using positive ways to rehabiliate them I got their unwanted behaviour to stop.

Discodog · 19-10-2009 8:54pm

I do not believe that it is clear cut. I know of many dogs who enjoy a lot of freedom due to electronic fences. I can think of one friend who has 4 setters that charge across the lawn to greet visitors & then stop in a perfect line - where the wire is buried. They never get a shock because they know where the boundary is.

I know of a dog that had a history of chasing livestock. Three different "trainers" including one TV celeb were paid a fortune with no effect. In desperation they resorted to a radio controlled shock collar & the dog can now be walked through a field of sheep off lead. The dog received two shocks in total.

I also know of several sight-hounds that could never be let off lead that now enjoy off lead walks every day.

jimmyn · 19-10-2009 10:49pm

I wasn't going to reply to this thread in the hope that it would die the death it deserves. But there's no sign of that, so here's my opinion (not that you're interested).

I find it interesting that the only people who will defend the use of an ecollar are also the only people who have any experience with them. Everyone else is giving an ignorant, emotionally charged "opinion" based on nothing more than their own "Oh no - think of the children!" bullsh1t hysteria.

I went to a lot of trouble in a recent thread to explain to helena.ryan (OP) and her ilk how these tools are properly used, and how they are not in any way cruel. How they effectively and clearly communicate to a dog what is expected, without causing pain or distress. I posted links to videos to show them being used in the proper manner. Those videos show the dogs enjoying their training. This is precisely how it was with my dog.

But now I realise my mistake. These people aren't interested in explanations. They don't want to be educated about these tools or how they work. They're not really asking questions. They just want to sit behind their keyboard, posting their "opinions" (based on nothing) and indulging in the <censored> that is the Animal Welfare forum.

I did a dog training course and we learnt how cruel these collars are and no decent dog trainer or dog owner would use them.

What dog training course was that? Obviously not one that had any experience with these collars, but still felt qualified to lecture on them. And by the way, almost all top competitive working dog trainers use these collars. Any that work in the real world that is. Schutzhund, field trials, sheep trials, even SAR. So how are you defining "decent dog trainer"?

Look, I was against these things in principle when I started out. But the dog training course I did opened my mind. I got to see, feel and use ecollars myself and it became very obvious that these things are not cruel. I used it on myself before I would ever let it near my dog, and that experience changed my mind completely. I now understand that ecollars are a very effective and humane tool when used properly. I still wouldn't like to see them sold to anybody willy-nilly. Used improperly, they have the potential to be cruel, but with training, they are a fantastic tool.

Oh, and please stop calling them "shock collars". It gives the wrong impression of the level of stim used. No, "stim" is not a euphemism. It's a mild use of electric static charge to stimulate nerves - like a physiotherapist's TENS machine. It's not an electric shock. These things are NOT Tasers.

In fact, did it ever occur to you that propagating these "shock collar" myths are probably the cause of the problem you are fighting against? There is so much "information" on the net from people like you about how these things are used that untrained people just assume that you're supposed to shock the crap out of your dog. So out they go, buy an ecollar, put it on their dog, turn it up and wait for him to do something wrong. Then blast the head off him. That is abuse and cruelty and it is your fault. You refuse to let clear, informed heads get the right information out there. If the correct information was widespread on the web, it would be easy for people to find out how to use ecollars properly. But for as long as you <snip> propagate all this crap, people will assume that "shock collars" are for "shocking" your dog when he misbehaves.

If you don't like ecollars, fine. Don't use them. Stick to your puppy training. But don't spout <snip> about things you know nothing about, and don't go slandering those of use that do use them effectively and humanely.

Discodog · 20-10-2009 10:34am

As with most animal welfare issues there can never be a perfect answer. The problem is that the welfare community tend to react with emotion & that is often not in the best interest of the specific animal or animals in general. This causes polarisation & extreme views that can damage animal welfare.

Spaying is a classic example of where their are valid veterinary arguments for & against it. Zoo's are another example that polarise welfare groups. Clearly some zoo's should be shut but others do invaluable conservation work & research. The key factor is quality of life.

As Jimmyn has said the problem is when the wrong people use the wrong equipment the wrong way. Installing an electronic fence & training an animal to use it involves a lot of care. If it is done properly the dog will understand the pre-warning that the device gives.

Out of interest I spoke to an old friend who rehabilitates ex racing Greyhounds for rehoming. He is slated by the Greyhound rescue community for using electronic collars but the majority of dogs that he rehomes can safely be allowed off-lead. What is best for the dogs ?. Will a rehomed Greyhound be better being never let off lead or would it rather receive a few mild shocks & then have a life off lead ?.

If an electronic collar is used properly the animal should only ever receive a few shocks before it recognises the warning tone. I think that some people are under the misimpression that the dog is constantly getting shocked. The real problem is that ignorant people can buy an electronic collar & use it incorrectly.

I would urge anyone considering animal welfare issues to be open minded & consider both sides of any argument. Think about what is in the long term best interest of the animal not the emotional feeling of the human.

Whispered · 20-10-2009 11:15am

jimmyn wrote: »

I went to a lot of trouble in a recent thread to explain to helena.ryan (OP) and her ilk how these tools are properly used,.

And my Ilk? Please do explain.

jimmyn wrote: »

How they effectively and clearly communicate to a dog what is expected, without causing pain or distress.

If used properly perhaps, but to hear of someone putting a collar on a dog to prevent barking, and the dog being so scared, a perfectly housetrained pet goes to the toilet in the house (it was described more dramatically to me, but you don't need details).

jimmyn wrote: »

But now I realise my mistake. These people aren't interested in explanations. They don't want to be educated about these tools or how they work. They're not really asking questions. They just want to sit behind their keyboard, posting their "opinions" (based on nothing) and indulging in the censored..

These people? You mean people who just wont take your word for it and want an actual discussion? There has been no slander in this or the other thread. Except for from you. As for opinions based on nothing, you don't know people on this forum or what their opinions are based on.

jimmyn wrote: »

Look, I was against these things in principle when I started out. But the dog training course I did opened my mind. I got to see, feel and use ecollars myself and it became very obvious that these things are not cruel. I used it on myself before I would ever let it near my dog, and that experience changed my mind completely. I now understand that ecollars are a very effective and humane tool when used properly. I still wouldn't like to see them sold to anybody willy-nilly. Used improperly, they have the potential to be cruel, but with training, they are a fantastic tool.

.

Fair play for using it on yourself. Most people dont bother. However, the problem begins when you have people recommend them for problems like barking. "Your dog barks - go buy a collar, that will sort them out" type stupidity. Which, even by your own post, you mustn't agree with. It's important to address WHY a shock collar should be used. For training, I don't understand negative reinforcement at all. It has never worked on any dog I've ever had experience with. For safety, a different matter, but still, not ideal. You have a responsibility to your pet to keep them safe, if this means a shock collar when walking to prevent them bolting, then so be it. But again, for usual training? Do you think they should be used for problems like barking or jumping up?

jimmyn wrote: »

Oh, and please stop calling them "shock collars". It gives the wrong impression of the level of stim used. .

If you google shock collar, you get online shops and outdoor suppliers calling them "shock" collars.

jimmyn wrote: »

In fact, did it ever occur to you that propagating these "shock collar" myths are probably the cause of the problem you are fighting against? There is so much "information" on the net from <snip> like you about how these things are used that untrained people just assume that you're supposed to shock the crap out of your dog. .

Nice, perhaps it takes a certain type of person to recommend these "training aids"? Your post would certainly suggest so.

jimmyn wrote: »

If you don't like ecollars, fine. Don't use them. Stick to your puppy training. But don't spout <snip> about things you know nothing about, and don't go slandering those of use that do use them effectively and humanely.

Nobody slandered anybody till you came in all guns blazing making yourself look agressive.

Whispered · 20-10-2009 11:46am

Discodog wrote: »

I do not believe that it is clear cut. I know of many dogs who enjoy a lot of freedom due to electronic fences. I can think of one friend who has 4 setters that charge across the lawn to greet visitors & then stop in a perfect line - where the wire is buried. They never get a shock because they know where the boundary is.

I know of a dog that had a history of chasing livestock. Three different "trainers" including one TV celeb were paid a fortune with no effect. In desperation they resorted to a radio controlled shock collar & the dog can now be walked through a field of sheep off lead. The dog received two shocks in total.

I also know of several sight-hounds that could never be let off lead that now enjoy off lead walks every day.

I think it's very important to look at WHEN they should be used. You have a responsibility to your pet to keep them safe, and I believe it is very important for a dog to get walked off lead and explore. So if a shock collar prevents them from bolting, then so be it. I don't think it is ideal. But for training for things like barking/jumping up etc, I don't see how it could every be considered a good idea.

ISDW · 20-10-2009 11:55am

I work mainly with siberian huskies and alaskan malamutes and won't rehome to a home that uses e fences to contain them, as most of them will take the pain and just keep running:D

However, having read jimmy and discodog's posts, I can see how there may be a place for them when used properly and under trained supervision. Again, with my breeds, I still wouldn't trust the dogs off lead even with them on, I don't know if the thick fur also hinders them or the urge to run is just too strong, but I don't think they'd work on the northern breeds.

But, discussion forums are meant, I believe, to help people to think about things in a way that maybe they hadn't considered before. And then, if you're interested in whats been discussed, to go and do proper research.

This discussion, especially jimmy and discodogs posts, have made me think and I will be looking into them further. I have used a spray collar to try and stop a dog from barking incessently, but feel that I wouldn't use an e collar for the same thing. Maybe I need to think about what difference it actually is to a dog, getting the shock of something sprayed in their face, or the shock of a buzz, or whatever on their neck.

jimmyn · 20-10-2009 12:36pm

Hi guys, no I didn't delete it. Haven't heard anything from the mods either.

It doesn't matter I suppose. I got through to at least 2 open-minded people who are willing to look into it further and find out the facts. Ecollars may not be for everyone, but at least make an informed decision. Leave the emotionally charged hysteria behind and as Disco said, think of the long term quality of life of the dog.

Discodog · 20-10-2009 12:39pm

Ok I do not want to take this off topic but for an "opposing opinion" thread to disappear raises very serious questions. Can we have an answer please from the Mods ?. PM's sent

I except that Jimmyn went on a little bit if a rant but it is seriously frustrating when people refuse to, at least, consider other opinions. This divide is one of the prime reasons why animal welfare in Ireland is so bad. People spend more time arguing with each other than fighting for animal rights. For example at the moment everyone should be lobbying to get the AWB through the Dail.

Mod edit: Do not question mod decisions on thread.

Whispered · 20-10-2009 1:23pm

jimmyn wrote: »

. Leave the emotionally charged hysteria behind.

yes good idea....

Whispered · 20-10-2009 1:42pm

jimmyn wrote: »

bullsh1t hysteria.... helena.ryan (OP) and her ilk .........But now I realise my mistake. These people aren't interested in explanations...... They just want to sit behind their keyboard, posting their "opinions" (based on nothing) and indulging in the <censored> that is the Animal Welfare forum....muppets like you ...... But for as long as you dumbasses propagate all this crap.....

this is ok to post? I asked a question - I was not at all emotive or insulting in the question, and I get this torrent of abuse back and it's ok?

Our man in Havana · 20-10-2009 1:46pm

The next back seat mod gets a permanent ban from here.
Report offensive posts, DO NOT RESPOND TO THEM! unless you want a ban also.

Debate in a civilised manner or you know where the door is. Understand? I think a lot of people here do not read charters or understand the rules.

I have had enough of the back seat modding and people who cannot accept criticism.

Cop on or else.

Whispered · 20-10-2009 2:10pm

Discodog wrote: »

This divide is one of the prime reasons why animal welfare in Ireland is so bad. People spend more time arguing with each other than fighting for animal rights.

+1 Discodog, you're always so level headed. And very right on this point IMO.

There does of course need to be some modicum of respect from both sides of any debate too.

jimmyn · 20-10-2009 4:11pm

It's true, I wasn't particularly conciliatory after having read 2 pages worth of posts basically accusing those of us who use ecollars of being cruel, abusive, lazy, incompetents who use the "tool of the devil".

Seriously, have you any idea how insulting that is to those of us who love our dogs and choose to spend a lot of time, effort and money carefully studying the proper use of ecollars, so we can give our dogs a lifetime of freedom to run off lead, and know that they are still under effective control?

Especially since this thread was started immediately after I had written lots of information, explanations, posted links to articles and videos to help show how these tools can be properly used. That just tells me that OP simply wasn't interested in finding out the truth, and probably didn't even bother her barney looking at the links I posted. If she had she might have realised that she has some thinking to do. Instead, all she wanted was to create a thread where she could see pages of people (the "your ilk" which I previously referred to) crying "Witch".

So did it make you feel better OP? To see all those people flocking to decry the tools of the Devil? Did you feel validated by that? Comfortably reassured that you won't after all have to face the distressing possibility that you may have been mistaken?

My last post was a bit offensive and I apologise. But it came following 2 pages of posts essentially levelling abuse at me (and my ilk), all from people who don't in fact understand what they're talking about.

Yes Helena, you're right that I don't condone someone buying an ecollar in a pet shop and slapping it on their dog with no training on how to use it properly. Proper training is essential when starting out with an ecollar (I would say the same thing about any training tool). But you're attacking the tool, when the problem is in fact the person using the tool. So you tar us all with the same brush.

I don't mind discussing the factual pros and cons of ecollars and their use, but what you've got here is a witch hunt.

star-pants · 20-10-2009 4:40pm

TBH everyones entitled to their opinion, I asked a question in the beginning which went unanswered by those who are 'for' these collars. It was a genuine question.

It's the same as the arguement over 'do I rub my pups nose in their wee' etc. Is it cruel? to some yes, to others it's learning.

These collars, never used one myself so I'm not going to say whether I'm for or against them. I'd personally have to try it on myself and see what I thought.

Should you train horses with a riding crop?

Many questions that will always have two sides.
I think the OP was asking for others opinions initially - as she is entitled to do so.

People then came in with 'OMG they're the worst thing ever', and others with 'you're a fool they're fine to use' and so forth.

Abuse and rudeness is not tolerated here. And I'm sick of these types of arguements arising, where the discussion becomes a tit for tat and b*tching at each other. If people want a discussion that's fine, and it's allowed, whether you agree or not, make your point, walk away if you don't like other peoples points, or make valid unpersonal counter arguements.

But a word of warning - we shall not tolerate this type of crap again. If anyone has an issue with a post or deleting of a post or whatever - A) use the report post function and/or

pm a mod -- some of us do have lives and may not be able to respond ASAP.

Hellrazer · 20-10-2009 4:45pm

Jimmy I see no so called "witch hunt" going on here.And wheres the so called 2 pages of "levelling abuse at you and your ilk"?

What I see is your supposedly superior knowledge about these so called collars and you refusing to accept that some people dont agree with the use of them and in doing so insulting users and the forum itself.

Ive just gotten around to reading some of your comments about the users of this forum and the forum itself and honestly if thats the way you feel then dont use the forum and go post somewhere else with like minded "ilk" of your own who feel superior to people who ask genuine questions about their animals.

Bond was way too nice to you earlier today--If I had seen them earlier I would have banned you for some of those comments.

This forum has always been lets say "new animal owner" friendly and the rules are that all questions even ones that may sound ridiculous to someone with your superior knowledge must be answered in a friendly and non judgemental way.And that didint happen in this thread.

So consider this a first and only warning.

While I welcome input from any qualified dog trainer the way in which the input is given makes a huge difference to the way this forum runs and I think you need to be more lets say friendly in giving advice.

Discodog · 20-10-2009 5:30pm

star-pants wrote: »

May I ask - would you use one on a child?

You say this question was unanswered well from my point of view it's a little ridiculous.

Would you let you child sleep in a kennel in the garden ?.
Would you let your child sniff another child's nether regions ?.

Children are not dogs & vice versa. If your child was about to run out into a busy road would you gently call the child or grab to pull it back ?. You might severely bruise it's arm so are you guilty of cruelty ?. Some dogs especially those that have been trained to chase have a very strong chase reflex. This can endanger them, cats, wildlife, motorists etc.

The accepted answer in the sighthound community is that these dogs must never be let off lead. Most sighthound rescues make it a condition of rehoming. As the owner of a chasing sighthound ( I have another that doesn't chase) I would love to be able to let the dog run off lead. I have never used an electronic collar on the dog but I have felt the shock from one . I am still researching but if I thought that two or three shocks could mean that the dog can enjoy running off lead could be a better option for the long term welfare of the dog & that's all that matters.

Another factor is that no matter how carefully a sighthound is walked there is always the possibility of an escape or leash slip. I would love to know that if ever that did happen that the dog would recall.

There has been talk here of opinions given by & about trainers. Anyone from the doggy community will know that this is a huge bone of contention. There are so many different schools of training & they all think that they are exclusively right, including the one who guaranteed that my sighthound would recall - it ran off, only stopping to laugh at the trainer.

As with anything else to do with animals do your research & form your own opinions. Don't accept information just because it comes from a so called expert - even Vets can get it wrong.

I believe that electronic collars are wrong for any unsupervised training for example bark prevention but that they can be justified in certain cases. As for electronic fences, they can never be a replacement for a proper fence & they can never be 100% reliable. But they can increase the security of a dog especially an escape artist of digger & they can give a dog a much greater area & freedom when supervised. For example as a secondary protection on a driveway gate. But they MUST be correctly installed & operated & the dog must be trained to the system.

In Ireland these fences are retailed by shops for self install. In the UK most are sold by trained reps who supervise install & training which is the better option.

Discodog · 20-10-2009 5:41pm

helena.ryan wrote: »

+1 Discodog, you're always so level headed. And very right on this point IMO.

There does of course need to be some modicum of respect from both sides of any debate too.

You know that I respect you !.

star-pants · 20-10-2009 5:43pm

Discodog wrote: »

You say this question was unanswered well from my point of view it's a little ridiculous.

Would you let you child sleep in a kennel in the garden ?.
Would you let your child sniff another child's nether regions ?.

Children are not dogs & vice versa. If your child was about to run out into a busy road would you gently call the child or grab to pull it back ?. You might severely bruise it's arm so are you guilty of cruelty ?. Some dogs especially those that have been trained to chase have a very strong chase reflex. This can endanger them, cats, wildlife, motorists etc.

I don't believe it to be ridiculous - I was asking because would you use it on a human, i.e. does it cause pain. Children are not dogs and vice versa, I am well aware. As people were suggesting you use it as a training aid. You train puppies, you train children. Different methods in somethings, in others it's the same types of method, like toilet training. Praise for going in the right place and so forth.

As I said - this thread was allowing discussion and questions to be asked. I asked a question, just because you personally deem it to be ridiculous does not mean it's invalid.

Regarding these collars - as said by others, if they're being used they need to be used by the right people in the right circumstance, who have been trained on how /when to use them. There would be a lot of people out there who use them wrongly and for the wrong reasons.

9wetfckx43j5rg · 20-10-2009 5:47pm

Discodog wrote: »

As the owner of a chasing sighthound ( I have another that doesn't chase) I would love to be able to let the dog run off lead. I have never used an electronic collar on the dog but I have felt the shock from one . I am still researching but if I thought that two or three shocks could mean that the dog can enjoy running off lead could be a better option for the long term welfare of the dog & that's all that matters.

Another factor is that no matter how carefully a sighthound is walked there is always the possibility of an escape or leash slip. I would love to know that if ever that did happen that the dog would recall.

I have two retired greyhounds and both are trained to return to a whistle when off the lead. Now if they saw a cat or rabbit while off the lead it may be a different story, but if they see a person or another dog they will ignore it. Neither have ever been subjected to an electric collar and there is no need to use one to train a dog.

Like I said before it is a lazy alternative to proper training.

9wetfckx43j5rg · 20-10-2009 5:54pm

star-pants wrote: »

Should you train horses with a riding crop?

Horses are not trained with a crop. Crops are only used on full trained horses as a back up to the leg aid when the horse to not responding correctly. They are not used as punishment or as a training aid, only a back up to the leg. Beginner riders are never given a crop.

Only jockeys actually whip horses, a practice which I believe should be banned.

And I have accidently hit myself in the leg instead of the horses flank before and I was not fazed by it, so I doubt a 2000 pound horse would be either.

The great thing about someone being cruel to a horse while on its back is if you piss off a horse, your gonna be on the ground pretty soon.

9wetfckx43j5rg · 20-10-2009 5:56pm

MistyCheese wrote: »

Well, I know I wouldn't like to get lemon juice in my eye!

It is not lemon juice, it is lemon scented air. Like what comes out of your glade air freshener. And it is a far kinder alternative than a shock collar for a lazy owner.

star-pants · 20-10-2009 6:02pm

Cannon Victorious Puma wrote: »

Horses are not trained with a crop. Crops are only used on full trained horses as a back up to the leg aid when the horse to not responding correctly. They are not used as punishment or as a training aid, only a back up to the leg. Beginner riders are never given a crop.

Sorry that wasn't actually a genuine question, I just sort of randomly thought of it, but there, as you said (and probably more what I meant) was about jockeys whipping horses, some will be for, some will be against. I meant it to illustrate there will always be two sides to these views.
And yes I saw a girl who well deserved the kick in the thigh she got from a horse, she was damned lucky though.

Also I don't think you should call people 'lazy owners' - they may be very active and participating owners, just because you disagree with their training methods does not make them a lazy owner.

Discodog · 20-10-2009 6:05pm

Having tested one several times I do not think it painful. Electronic training collars have an adjustable setting for the level of shock. All the manuals for these collars stress that the setting must never be set high enough to cause the dog to yelp or show signs of distress. Some here know me & my dogs. They would testify that I would never inflict pain. The point was that in an emergency you would restrain a child first & then worry about whether you had hurt it.

I have shared many gardens with dogs wearing e-fence collars & I have never known one to get a shock. Most don't even get close enough to get a warning tone. Some fence collars emit a loud chatter & vibration if the animal gets too close. In a correctly installed setup the distance between warning & shock will be decreased as the animal learns the boundary.

I even know of a highly prized Burmese cat who has a specially modified & miniaturised e-collar. It allows him to have the run of a garden & two rooftops in central London. He never gets a shock. Now would it be kinder to keep him indoors or in a outdoor cage ?

Contrary to some of the advice it would appear that some who had deemed electronic collars as unexceptable are now hinting that they can be in certain circumstances which is what Jimmyn & I have been saying. There are never black & white answers.

Good news the Kiwi has been saved from extinction. Bad news they have to shoot or trap every potential predator for miles. Which is best ?.

9wetfckx43j5rg · 20-10-2009 6:32pm

star-pants wrote: »

Also I don't think you should call people 'lazy owners' - they may be very active and participating owners, just because you disagree with their training methods does not make them a lazy owner.

I called them that because I see collars such as shock collars or lemon burst collars as quick fixes and I don't understand why people would just use them if they were willing to put in the time it takes to train a dog without the use of such aids.

Why someone would choose a method that causes an animal distress over a method based on mutual trust and a bond between dog and owner, unless they wanted a quick fix, hence why I called them lazy, but I understand your point.

Whispered · 20-10-2009 6:58pm

jimmyn wrote: »

Seriously, have you any idea how insulting that is to those of us who love our dogs and choose to spend a lot of time, effort and money carefully studying the proper use of ecollars, so we can give our dogs a lifetime of freedom to run off lead, and know that they are still under effective control?

Especially since this thread was started immediately after I had written lots of information, .

EXACTLY! You had a post in a thread, which made sense. It didn't change my mind, but got me curious. I started a new thread, outlining my questions "is it ever ok to use pain to train etc" stating my limited exposure to the shock collar "I know of a woman whos dog...." and giving my negative opinion on them "I can't understand.....". I did not insult anybody and in fact thanked one of your posts explaining something. Granted some responses were OTT but they were NOT FROM ME, there was no need to go attacking me and calling me names like that. To be perfectly honest, any sway you may have had on me and my opinion (and you did make some good points) was lost among the bile and agression.

Discodog · 20-10-2009 7:02pm

Cannon Victorious Puma wrote: »

I called them that because I see collars such as shock collars or lemon burst collars as quick fixes and I don't understand why people would just use them if they were willing to put in the time it takes to train a dog without the use of such aids.

Why someone would choose a method that causes an animal distress over a method based on mutual trust and a bond between dog and owner, unless they wanted a quick fix, hence why I called them lazy, but I understand your point.

Maybe some people have found that with certain dogs mutual trust & bond doesn't work for chase recall.

Helen: Jimmyn has apologised - you could tell him to donate a tenner to your favourite rescue as penance !. I have been called exactly the same on these boards & no one has leapt to my defence. Can't have anything to do with you being a nice girly ......can it ?.

Whispered · 20-10-2009 8:45pm

Discodog wrote: »

Helena: Jimmyn has apologised - you could tell him to donate a tenner to your favourite rescue as penance !. I have been called exactly the same on these boards & no one has leapt to my defence. Can't have anything to do with you being a nice girly ......can it ?.

Jimmyn "apologised" then had another pop at me in that post. I'm not talking about how the post was dealt with, and if you have a problem with the mods stepping in over a poster calling another names in a post or insulting the forum, then perhaps you should take it up with them? From what I have seen, any abusive posts are quickly deleted. And if jimmyn was referring to a particular post of mine fair enough, but he wasn't, he had a go at me for others peoples posts.

Also, my last post on this was to tell jimmyn how I believe he got the wrong end of the stick with regards to my intentions in starting this thread and to make sure my intentions were clear. I wasn't looking for an apology or having a go at him so no need for you to step in defending him.

Discodog · 20-10-2009 8:50pm

Sorry Helena I was trying to be a little light hearted which appears to be impossible on here. I will return to another land where one can discuss e-collars all day without upset & a little frivolity is welcomed.

I originally posted in Feedback asking for this forum to be set up - Oh dear !

Whispered · 20-10-2009 8:53pm

Well if I was a little oversensitive to your post I'm sorry, but, silly as it may seem over an internet thing, I'm still smarting over how I was insulted today. If I do something which deserves a kickback then fine, I can hold my own and have done on the forum before. But that was not justified at all and it upset me I mean really...

iguana · 22-10-2009 3:29pm

I have put a shock collar on my own throat, out of curiousity, and set it off at the maximum setting and it does not hurt. It creates a sensation like an intense vibration. I think they are called shock collars as in they give a shock like "Oh I didn't see you standing there you gave me a shock" rather than electric shock.

I don't use them as I have looked into them and they seem too much like hard work. Especially as I have very food orientated dogs and it's easier to offer them the option of returning to me for a treat. But I wouldn't rule them out if I ever have a really large garden, as one of my dogs has no problem springing over a 6ft wall.

iguana · 22-10-2009 3:51pm

Oh and spray collars don't use citrus, they use citronella. It's an oil derived from lemongrass and other similar grass plants. It's got nothing to do with oranges, lemons, limes, etc. Citronella has insect repellent qualities, so I guess that dogs show dislike for it too as it's used in these collars.

peasant · 22-10-2009 4:22pm

jimmyn wrote: »

. And by the way, almost all top competitive working dog trainers use these collars. Any that work in the real world that is. Schutzhund, field trials, sheep trials, even SAR.

Hmmm ...I wonder how all those shepherds, cattle drovers and flock guardians got their dogs to work with them before batteries were invented?

But the clue to the answer lies within your quote:

competitive

These people weren't. They had time to train their dogs properly, they had time to be with them 24/7, from puppyhood until they died and they knew how to work with dogs.

Not like today, where a dog is a companion for a few hours after work, otherwise left to its own devices.
Or worse ...where the dog is "sport" equipment, that gets zapped via remote control from pointless training excercise to pointless training excercise weekend after weekend in the hope of winning some even more pointless medal at the end of it all.

Shock Collars

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