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Frank Sherwin's view of Northern unionists

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Comments

  • #52
    ireland.man
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭ireland.man


    It's not bigoted to hate a bigot or to show, statistically speaking, attacks are far more prevalent in one community over another.

    The question isn't if loyalism produces more sectarianism and bigotry. That's been answered by organisations that can't be described as pro-Republican (PSNI, British govt, etc). The question is why this is the case?

    I'm starting to get a sense that some posters in this thread have no use for evidence or critical thinking.


  • #53
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    gallag wrote: »
    Is it not pretty bigoted to say if someone is a Protestant or unionist they are more likely to be racist? The same people saying this would of course throw a fit if someone said black people are more likely to commit crime while posting various statistics to back that claim up. Bigots calling others bigots. I noted a trend to revise history and claim one side was indeed "better" this of course ignoring the fact that some of the worst atrocities and the bulk of the killings carried out by Republicans even to this very day, I see the same people make a thread every time a unionist insults a language or people protest a flag/March etc but where are their threads on the almost weekly republican murders/attacks/foiled attacks/arms finds etc?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057332630

    There's one I posted a few days ago about dissident Republicans. Where abouts are all these threads every time a unionist insults the Irish language you claim are all over the place?


  • #54
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    demfad wrote: »
    That's actually not true. Sectarianism isn't tolerated in nationalist areas; people just don't think that way-arent like that. The communities aren't mirror images of eachother.

    You can see evidence of anti-Catholicism, sectarian attack right throughout the history of Ireland particularly in the NE. The opposite just is not the case.

    At least you have conceded that its rife within the Unionist community albeit falsely trying to justify it by claiming the nationalists are no better in this regard.

    See in my community we have a word for that and that word is bull****. The communities mirror each other differentiated only what church they go to. We are the same people, watch the same tv, support the same football teams, listen to the same music on the radio. The holier then thou attitude being displayed on here is frankly insulting


  • #55
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    junder wrote: »
    The communities mirror each other

    That's wrong. Other than what's being discussed here with the problems associated with racism/sectarianism in loyalist communities there are significant differences.

    There's an insignificant number of Nationalists who participate in marching and OO activities, those are a thing your crowd do. There aren't very many Union/loyalists who participate in Gaelic sports either as this would be viewed as a thing 'them'uns' do.

    The vast majority of union/loyalists would identify themselves as British. The vast majority of Nationalists would see themselves as as Irish or some variation of Irish.

    There are differing attitudes to education too if the 2-to-1 rate of Catholics outnumbering Protestants in NI Universities is anything to go by. Also, worryingly, Protestant boys from poorer backgrounds are seriously underachieving.


  • #56
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    junder wrote: »
    See in my community we have a word for that and that word is bull****. The communities mirror each other differentiated only what church they go to. We are the same people, watch the same tv, support the same football teams, listen to the same music on the radio. The holier then thou attitude being displayed on here is frankly insulting

    Why then, does the likes of Gregory Campbell keep getting voted in? The man is an out and out bigot and look at the hypocrisy he displayed this week. That element needs to be stamped out but it needs to happen from within, you don't seem to even see it as a problem though.


  • #57
    ireland.man
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭ireland.man


    junder wrote: »
    See in my community we have a word for that and that word is bull****. The communities mirror each other differentiated only what church they go to. We are the same people, watch the same tv, support the same football teams, listen to the same music on the radio. The holier then thou attitude being displayed on here is frankly insulting

    PSNI, British government, human rights organisations, international research studies, etc, etc all disagree with you. The overwhelming evidence is that one side predominates in racist, sectarian and hate-based crime and behaviour. This isn't propaganda, of subjective opinion, or gut feelings, or republican myths. These are facts so if you disagree, try to use some stats and facts to do so.

    There's vicious thugs on all sides and racists and bigots everywhere on these islands. But it's important to live in the real world and if we want to fix things, we need to be sensible and recognise where many of the problems lay.


  • #58
    demfad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    junder wrote: »
    See in my community we have a word for that and that word is bull****. The communities mirror each other differentiated only what church they go to. We are the same people, watch the same tv, support the same football teams, listen to the same music on the radio. The holier then thou attitude being displayed on here is frankly insulting

    Bull**** is when you cant substantiate what you say. Can you?

    Ill say what i believe to be true. If theres one thing I cant abide its southerners and some northerners scurrying to aoid saying anything that might "insult" an Ulster Protestant.

    There is a serious sectarian problem in the Loyalist community, there has been for centuries. Everybody knows this. For a people claiming to be British loyalists are actually far more insular (and Irish in that sense) than the Irish actually claiming to be Irish.

    Your own historians acknowledge that the sectarianism that plagued Europe hundreds of years ago only really exists in loyalist areas of NI now and pockets of Glasgow.

    If these facts insult you then youve got an issue with acceptance.

    To claim the communities are a mirror image of eachother is frankly ludicrous.

    Loyalism has behaved atrociously to Catholics for centuries. This was fueled consistantly by dispicable sectarianism. The type you wont find in the Irish Catholic mindset no matter how insulted that makes you feel.


  • #59
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057332630

    There's one I posted a few days ago about dissident Republicans. Where abouts are all these threads every time a unionist insults the Irish language you claim are all over the place?
    one thread for so many attacks? Bravo anyway .

    Junder, I suppose you just have to accept that we are on a primarily nationlist board, if we were on a more loyalist site the same argument would be made in reverse I.e them uns are worse! then of course the many agreeing voices become a circle **** of bigoted generalisation, as I said earearlier the same people would scream blue murder if you said black people are more likely to commit crime. The two articles posted here so far are not good enough to draw opinion never mind condemn an entire people, the first had a small sample size of 33 crimes, as I pointed out there were 20 racist attacks in the republic of Ireland in the first 20 days, and the second the author of the report went to pains to point out that though most attacks happened in loyalist areas it is also true that most immigrants live in loyalist areas, this naturally create problems with social cohesion I. e I know one family who's daughter was on a waiting list for housing seeing an African family get priority. This would affect every community around the globe the same way. I am sorry but you guys are being bigoted, yous are just using article and report selectively to "confirm" the bias you already hold.


  • #60
    demfad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    gallag wrote: »
    one thread for so many attacks? Bravo anyway .

    Junder, I suppose you just have to accept that we are on a primarily nationlist board, if we were on a more loyalist site the same argument would be made in reverse I.e them uns are worse! then of course the many agreeing voices become a circle **** of bigoted generalisation, as I said earearlier the same people would scream blue murder if you said black people are more likely to commit crime. The two articles posted here so far are not good enough to draw opinion never mind condemn an entire people, the first had a small sample size of 33 crimes, as I pointed out there were 20 racist attacks in the republic of Ireland in the first 20 days, and the second the author of the report went to pains to point out that though most attacks happened in loyalist areas it is also true that most immigrants live in loyalist areas, this naturally create problems with social cohesion
    I know one family who's daughter was on a waiting list for housing seeing an African family get priority. This would affect every community around the globe the same way. I am sorry but you guys are being bigoted, yous are just using article and report selectively to "confirm" the bias you already hold.

    You haven't been able to really substantiate anything you've claimed there other than the usual last resort "the statistical analyses was dodgy" argument when you've no legs left to stand on.

    From a guardian article: in 2005: 28 out of 31 were from loyalist areas, in 2006. 30 out of 33.

    The anti-racist campaigners at the time singled out Loyalist areas as particularly troublesome "the overt assaults are happening in loyalist areas".

    The people involved firmly believed that UVF members were behind the attacks.

    In contrast Republicans in Belfast distributed welcome packs to new immigrants arriving there. Looks like the UVF have progressed from their usual game of attacking people based on their religion to attacking people based on their religion and/or race.

    Who said loyalism wasn't inclusive?


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  • #61
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    gallag wrote: »
    as I said earearlier the same people would scream blue murder if you said black people are more likely to commit crime.

    I'm not sure they would to be honest. You'd only be stating a fact.

    Its the reasons behind that fact that could cause argument, not the fact itself.


  • #62
    ireland.man
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭ireland.man


    The PSNI reported the following:

    "In the last year, there were a total of 750 racist incidents and 470 hate crimes reported to the PSNI – an increase when compared to the 2011/12 period, as documented by the 2013 Northern Ireland Peace and Monitoring Report."

    We're not talking about 33 incidents in one newspaper article. A lot more info was given than that which is being ignored. It's not racist and never has been to say that predominantly black communities in Los Angeles have higher rates of crime than white areas. Social justice groups use this base knowledge this as the foundation for political and social interventions to deal with social problems.

    Anyway, I'd probably get more satisfaction arguing with a Flat Earther.


  • #63
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    gallag wrote: »
    one thread for so many attacks? Bravo anyway .

    Junder, I suppose you just have to accept that we are on a primarily nationlist board, if we were on a more loyalist site the same argument would be made in reverse I.e them uns are worse! then of course the many agreeing voices become a circle **** of bigoted generalisation, as I said earearlier the same people would scream blue murder if you said black people are more likely to commit crime. The two articles posted here so far are not good enough to draw opinion never mind condemn an entire people, the first had a small sample size of 33 crimes, as I pointed out there were 20 racist attacks in the republic of Ireland in the first 20 days, and the second the author of the report went to pains to point out that though most attacks happened in loyalist areas it is also true that most immigrants live in loyalist areas, this naturally create problems with social cohesion I. e I know one family who's daughter was on a waiting list for housing seeing an African family get priority. This would affect every community around the globe the same way. I am sorry but you guys are being bigoted, yous are just using article and report selectively to "confirm" the bias you already hold.

    Well I rarely post in here. Where about are all these Unionists threads that bash the Irish language? Loyalists are very good at make sop stories for themselves that don't actually exist.


  • #64
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    gallag wrote: »
    one thread for so many attacks? Bravo anyway

    You're taking it personally dude. Nobody has questioned yours or Junder's character. Ye seem like decent enough lads from what I can tell. Also, nobody has once said that all union/loyalists are racist bigots.

    What was said was that there appears to be a connection with racist attacks and an element of loyalism; the studies that were presented seem to be evidence that this is correct.


  • #65
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    Well I rarely post in here. Where about are all these Unionists threads that bash the Irish language? Loyalists are very good at make sop stories for themselves that don't actually exist.

    Ironically the vast majority of threads that 'bash the Irish language' are started by irish people, unless of course your one of those idiot republicans that denounce any irish person that descents from the republican bible as a 'west brit'


  • #66
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    You're taking it personally dude. Nobody has questioned yours or Junder's character. Ye seem like decent enough lads from what I can tell. Also, nobody has once said that all union/loyalists are racist bigots.

    What was said was that there appears to be a connection with racist attacks and an element of loyalism; the studies that were presented seem to be evidence that this is correct.

    And according to recent reports, there seems tp be a connection between republicanism ans child abuse, personaly prefer not to make generalisations about a community though


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  • #67
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    junder wrote: »
    And according to recent reports, there seems tp be a connection between republicanism ans child abuse

    Do the reports say that Republicans are more likely to abuse than the general population? I doubt it.


  • #68
    ireland.man
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭ireland.man


    Yeah, seems to be some confusion about the difference between statistical evidence and anecdotal evidence here.


  • #69
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    junder wrote: »
    Ironically the vast majority of threads that 'bash the Irish language' are started by irish people, unless of course your one of those idiot republicans that denounce any irish person that descents from the republican bible as a 'west brit'

    What the hell are you about? Where did I call anyone a west brit? I asked someone to show a thread were the language was being bashed. Take of your orange tinted glasses you might be able to see better.

    And were is this Republican Bible you talk about? I'm intrigued by it, is there a Loyalist one also?


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