Shock Collars

jimmyn · 23-10-2009 3:24am

And if jimmyn was referring to a particular post of mine fair enough, but he wasn't, he had a go at me for others peoples posts.

That's true, I did. I've been reading back through this thread, and I see that the posts that hurt me the most were actually not from Helena. They were from other posters, Jenniebabz, and such. Helena, you got the brunt of it because you seemed to be spearheading the campaign against ecollars.

Your original post asking are they cruel and is it ever acceptable to use pain to teach, seemed to me to be a loaded question to generate anti-ecollar sentiment, never allowing for the possibility that proper ecollar training is not about using pain for compliance. This was my assumption, and if I was wrong in that, then I am truly sorry. I came here to inform, not to fight, but try to understand the frustration in those of us who use ecollars properly and face an onslaught of posts in every internet forum telling us how cruel and abusive we are. Only this week I was told I am too soft on my dog and need to get stricter on him!

Helena, I've been pretty upset myself the last couple of days knowing that I upset you. If you were genuinely searching for more information (it's so hard to tell these things on the internet), then I am sincerely sorry.

So on to business...

Peasant had a valid point before about avoiding bad associations. My experience is with remote training collars, not bark collars or fences, so I'll answer in that capacity.

Whenever a "shock" (I prefer the word "stim" - it's more accurate) is delivered to my dog, it is because I pressed a button on the remote. I alone have control over when my dog is stimmed. If a child or another dog comes along, I will not press the button. This is more of a problem when using old-fashioned high stim methods, not the modern low stim techniques, but why take the risk? I can make an exception on this if I know the dog is "collar literate", and knows what the stim means. The dog won't make a false association then.

Hmmm ...I wonder how all those shepherds, cattle drovers and flock guardians got their dogs to work with them before batteries were invented?

I never said an ecollar was necessary to train a dog. Dogs have been trained for a long time without them. Traditionally, choke collars etc would have been used. Sure they work. But in inexperienced hands (like most owners), they can injure a dog. You can't physically injure a dog with an ecollar. Even a prong collar is safer than a choke chain.

They had time to train their dogs properly, they had time to be with them 24/7, from puppyhood until they died

You know, I'm pretty jealous of anyone who has that kind of time these days. Most of us have to work for a living. That's how the doggie food gets paid for. I think most dog lovers would love to be with their dogs 24/7, from puppyhood until they died. Unfortunately, that's not possible for most of us.

Or worse ...where the dog is "sport" equipment, that gets zapped via remote control from pointless training excercise to pointless training excercise weekend after weekend in the hope of winning some even more pointless medal at the end of it all.

I think you do a disservice here to people who want to do things with their dogs. All dogs love having a "job" to do. In fact a lot of breeds really need that. I don't think any training exercise is pointless. It might seem pointless to us, but it's pretty important to a dog who needs to work. I think you'll find the dogs who get this treatment are happy, satisfied and well behaved. Take a border collie for example - if you don't work this breed they will go pure nuts on you out of frustration.

I think this thread has left the realm where anyone can ask genuine questions about how ecollars are properly used, without becoming an argument about humaneness and cruelty. I'm thinking of starting a new thread intended simply to answer questions to get the information out there for anyone who's interested in researching the method. No sparring contests. Anyone interested in that?

Whispered · 23-10-2009 9:14am

Ok Jimmy. I appreciate you saying that. I started the thread following a post of yours in another thread which got me wondering, it was bcause your post seemed level headed and informational that I asked, not to have a go. Unfortunately, collars are not always used by people who know what they are doing, and do cause pain (hence my training question). I still maintain that imo it's not the best way of doing things unless absolutely necessary. I think props are rarely a good idea, even using food as a prop all the time can lead to problems and I think the goal of anybody training a dog should be to have the dog follow instruction, without the use of any props. (please see my questions below, you might be able to clear that up for me)

I don't think there is any need to start a new thread TBH.

My experience with collars so far has been, as example in first post, woman puts collar on dog (to prevent barking), dog goes to the toilet on the floor, I know one golden retriver who has a bald patch on it's neck because of use of the collar. Granted it could be due to overuse, but it still happened. Besides this, my knowledge of it comes from various programmes and literature. All of it negative.

On the other hand, I have seen how with the right approach, you can control a team of dogs with the nod of a head. And no need for any props.(when I say team I mean 2 terriers and 2 sighthounds, usually no more than that). I genuinely can't see the point, in day to day training. (as I said, cases where the dog is likely to bolt, for dogs safety etc is understandable)

Jimmy, can you explain to me, is it used as correctional only and does the dog get a warning first?
How do you react if the dog learns to ignore the collar?
If you use a collar to teach your dog recall, and the dog somehow escapes, does recall still work?

This may seem like a silly question but I'll ask anyway. Say you are teaching your dog something new, for argument sake, to stop running and stand, how do you do this? At what point does the collar come into it?

Jumpy · 23-10-2009 9:19am

iguana wrote: »

Oh and spray collars don't use citrus, they use citronella. It's an oil derived from lemongrass and other similar grass plants. It's got nothing to do with oranges, lemons, limes, etc. Citronella has insect repellent qualities, so I guess that dogs show dislike for it too as it's used in these collars.

I still like satsumas.

peasant · 23-10-2009 10:22am

jimmyn wrote: »

Peasant had a valid point before about avoiding bad associations. My experience is with remote training collars, not bark collars or fences, so I'll answer in that capacity.

Whenever a "shock" (I prefer the word "stim" - it's more accurate) is delivered to my dog, it is because I pressed a button on the remote. I alone have control over when my dog is stimmed. If a child or another dog comes along, I will not press the button. This is more of a problem when using old-fashioned high stim methods, not the modern low stim techniques, but why take the risk? I can make an exception on this if I know the dog is "collar literate", and knows what the stim means. The dog won't make a false association then.

There we have another fundamental problem with collar training, (well actually any training that uses gadgets, be they zappers or clickers or whatever.)

What happens when the dog isn't wearing the collar?
Dogs aren't stupid, they know where the "stim" comes from and sooner or later they'll figure out that no collar = no "stim". More enterprising dogs quickly tend to "forget" all training once they realise that the boss has no button to press today

jimmyn wrote: »

I never said an ecollar was necessary to train a dog. Dogs have been trained for a long time without them. Traditionally, choke collars etc would have been used. Sure they work. But in inexperienced hands (like most owners), they can injure a dog. You can't physically injure a dog with an ecollar. Even a prong collar is safer than a choke chain.

Isn't it a bit telling that in your mind the alternative to not having a shock collar is to use a choke collar or a prong chain?
How about neither?

jimmyn wrote: »

You know, I'm pretty jealous of anyone who has that kind of time these days. Most of us have to work for a living. That's how the doggie food gets paid for. I think most dog lovers would love to be with their dogs 24/7, from puppyhood until they died. Unfortunately, that's not possible for most of us.

I think you do a disservice here to people who want to do things with their dogs. All dogs love having a "job" to do. In fact a lot of breeds really need that. I don't think any training exercise is pointless. It might seem pointless to us, but it's pretty important to a dog who needs to work. I think you'll find the dogs who get this treatment are happy, satisfied and well behaved. Take a border collie for example - if you don't work this breed they will go pure nuts on you out of frustration.

See ..there's a difference between "doing things" with your dog and training them for Schutzhund, field trials, competetive herding or whatever.

Working dogs need to work, on that I agree.
I do have provisos though. A normal family dog won't do security work and it'll only ever see sheep while leashed. Unless you actually live and work with your dog 24/7 there is no point in "upskilling" it to do a job that it will never actually work in ...it's pointless (apart from the competetive element ..and that, to the dog, is also pointless)
There are many fun training excercises you can do with your working breed that will keep its mind and body occupied. None of these have to be competitive and none of these need exact precision or quick training sucesses from the word go.
Once you remove the competitive element and do it for fun instead, you can work at the dogs' pace, you and the dog can get in tune with each other and there is no need for brute force.

If you accept the fact that in modern society the time spent with your dog is short enough ...why waste most of it by training it to be something that is of no use to man nor beast these days.

Leave the hard training to the professionals that actually work their dogs ...have fun with your dog instead, learn to communicate with each other without buttons and throw that damn shock collar away.

star-pants · 23-10-2009 11:00am

Jumpy wrote: »

I still like satsumas.

Unhelpful or off-topic posts are not needed.
Also Jimmy - I think this thread is fine now, there's been in the last page or so good ontopic posting so I see no reason to start another thread. People can ask questions in this one if they wish.

Paul91 · 23-10-2009 1:49pm

peasant wrote: »

If you accept the fact that in modern society the time spent with your dog is short enough ...why waste most of it by training it to be something that is of no use to man nor beast these days.

Leave the hard training to the professionals that actually work their dogs ...have fun with your dog instead, learn to communicate with each other without buttons and throw that damn shock collar away.

i'm sorry - have to disagree with this, all dogs where at one point working dogs, and as such they need the stimulation of the simulation of training, if you just "play" with your dog and don't stimulate it's desire to learn i see that as being cruel - i'm not entering into the debate on how

Whispered · 23-10-2009 2:22pm

Paul91 wrote: »

stimulate it's desire to learn

I know you don't want to enter into a debate but thats a very interesting point. When you talk about training, do you mean the usual obedience training? I know it's pretty apparant when your dog is learning something that they are enjoying it. You can nearly see the penny drop when they get the hang of something.

But, I'm talking about simple "tricks" like finding something, or carrying a note (yes I know I'm that lazy we are trying to teach Harley to carry messages around the house). I get the impression you mean more intense work though.

Say for a pet, like mine, who is a very physical dog, what type of "working" do you think I should be providing? I would have thought that obedience in the house and some tricks, coupled with walks and hiking on weekends, would suffice. Now I'm wondering if we should be doing a bit more, like maybe getting him a backpack so he feels he has a job. Or, when walking, is his "job" to simply to walk with us and explore, or would he need more?

The above sounds very jumbled, I can't quite phrase my question properly. Hopefully you will know what I mean.

peasant · 23-10-2009 2:38pm

Paul91 wrote: »

i'm sorry - have to disagree with this, all dogs where at one point working dogs, and as such they need the stimulation of the simulation of training, if you just "play" with your dog and don't stimulate it's desire to learn i see that as being cruel - i'm not entering into the debate on how

Nowhere did I say that you shouldn't stimulate your dog. There are many things you can teach your dog, you can involve new things on every walk, if you put your mind to it.
I just don't see the point in putting your dog through rigid training for Schutzhund or Herding for example when you neither are a member of the police force nor a shepherd ...especially not if the training for these "skills" involves shock collars and/or any other brute force methods.

Paul91 · 23-10-2009 2:40pm

helena.ryan wrote: »

I know you don't want to enter into a debate but thats a very interesting point. When you talk about training, do you mean the usual obedience training? I know it's pretty apparant when your dog is learning something that they are enjoying it. You can nearly see the penny drop when they get the hang of something. But, I'm talking about simple "tricks" like finding something, or carrying a note (yes I know I'm that lazy we are trying to teach Harley to carry messages around the house). I get the impression you mean more intense work though.

Say for a pet, like mine, who is a very physical dog, what type of "working" do you think I should be providing? I would have thought that obedience in the house and some tricks, coupled with walks and hiking on weekends, would suffice. Now I'm wondering if we should be doing a bit more, like maybe getting him a backpack so he feels he has a job. Or, when walking, is his "job" to simply to walk with us and explore, or would he need more?

The above sounds very jumbled, I can't quite phrase my question properly. Hopefully you will know what I mean.

I think I do

what I mean is, a dog is a creature, and like all creatures it needs a role in life or a purpose, whether that is to pass notes around the house, heard sheep on the farm, protect the home from intruders or simply go for a walk to earn it's food (how many people feed there dog before walking as opposed to after? i feed my two after as i feel this is more in keeping with nature, they go out on the hunt and then eat - they wouldn't eat then hunt would they?)

now if you are not teaching or training your dog something new at regular intervals, it's likely to get bored, like most of us humans who have to perform repetitive tasks

Paul91 · 23-10-2009 2:45pm

peasant wrote: »

Nowhere did I say that you shouldn't stimulate your dog. There are many things you can teach your dog, you can involve new things on every walk, if you put your mind to it.
I just don't see the point in putting your dog through rigid training for Schutzhund or Herding for example when you neither are a member of the police force nor a shepherd ...especially not if the training for these "skills" involves shock collars and/or any other brute force methods.

i don't want to open an argument, I’ve recently started looking at Schutzhund training, as i feel my dogs need more stimulation than i am currently giving, they crave the hunt, they see/smell cats and you can almost feel there hearts beat faster through their leash, they crave the chase, so i feel that Schutzhund and the tracking training could fill this void for them (that or leave them chase cats - which i wouldn't do!) no where in what i have read have "brute" force methods been utilized, and to be honest i am against them, but that doesn't mean the training itself is wrong

peasant · 23-10-2009 3:25pm

Paul91 wrote: »

no where in what i have read have "brute" force methods been utilized, and to be honest i am against them, but that doesn't mean the training itself is wrong

This is getting OT now, but what the heck

Of course Schutzhund trainers don't advertise their training as being done with shock collars, choke chains or other more or less brutal methods ...they'd never get any customers otherwise.

But strangely enough ...if you do a little research on t'internet into buying a "training collar" almost all sellers have some link or another to Schutzhund training. Coincidence? I think not

Schutzhund training for family dogs is a topic in itself and for another thread, really ...all i'm trying to say is that in my opnion it is pointless to train a family dog to do things that it doesn't need to know.

You can read up on tracking on the internet and get your dog to track sausage trails in your back garden, increasing the difficulty as you go along.

The old fetch game can be trained to perfection ...with stay and down inbetween

You can teach your dog unique skills (like carrying notes as above or fetching the kids for dinner) that are actually useful in your daily life.

All that you can do without competitive pressure, without a rigid one-size-fits-all training schedule and without medals at the end...and you and your dog can have endless fun while doing so and actually get to know each other better instead of having to fight each other to get the training programme worked off.

Any training session that is carried out in earnest and with dedication will be "work" to the dog ...even if it only involves you and a squeeky toy.
"Work" doesn't have to be shouts and frenzied dogs attacking other poeple wrapped in protective armour, despite what the Schutzhund people say

Paul91 · 23-10-2009 3:35pm

peasant wrote: »

"Work" doesn't have to be shouts and frenzied dogs attacking other poeple wrapped in protective armour, despite what the Schutzhund people say

read this and come back to me

Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods - Stewart Hilliard Susan Barwig

in the training there is no shouting or frenzied activity involved, that would be counter productive - not saying that there aren't trainers whom do that - but that isn't what the training is about

peasant · 23-10-2009 4:30pm

I don't need to read the book, I know what Schutzhund training is about (I grew up next to a training ground

)

But I don't want to drag this thread further OT ...it's not about Schutzhund but about shock collars.

In my opinion they are counter-productive.
- getting the dog to to things in order to avoid pain is the wrong training method
- By putting the collar on the dog it will learn that as soon as it does something wrong it will get punished ...that's what the collar is there for. That does not further co-operation, just fear. Sensitive dogs will collapse altogether ...for fear of doing something wrong they will do nothing at all.
- Clever and strong dogs on the other hand soon learn that when the collar isn't on (or that if they bear the pain for a bit and run far enough as to be out of range) they can do whatever they like and you have no command over them
- and then there is the whole danger of wrong associations as mentioned previously.

Paul91 · 23-10-2009 4:37pm

peasant wrote: »

I don't need to read the book, I know what Schutzhund training is about (I grew up next to a training ground )

I know OT - but whereabouts? where you able to learn anything productive?

peasant · 23-10-2009 4:40pm

Paul91 wrote: »

I know OT - but whereabouts? where you able to learn anything productive?

In Germany... and just by watching I decided for myself that that wasn't the kind of relationship I'd like to have with my dog. Too much regimented training going on. In Schutzhund the dog is a tool (or weapon) not a companion ...in my mind anyway

peasant · 24-10-2009 5:04pm

jimmyn wrote: »

We were discussing traditional training methods involving compulsion. I simply listed the common tools for the job. You seem to be suggesting that positive reinforcement should be the only thing used to train a dog. I agree for a pup under 6 months, for teaching tricks etc. For off-lead control outside among distractions, you need something more. Some kind of compulsion is needed.

There's a principle in learning theory called "negative thigmotaxis". It basically means that if you push an animal, it will naturally push back to resist. So if you push a dog into a down position, it will naturally resist, and it's body and mind will be thinking "push up". Opposite from what we want. This is why +R (positive reinforcement) uses treats to "lure" the dog into position. This is fine, but +R by its nature does not include any compulsion - no real method of delivering a correction. An ecollar is the only tool capable of delivering a correction without inducing netative thigmotaxis. That may also be a factor in why dogs learn so quickly with ecollar training.

Oh ...sorry ...but what a load of semi-scientific balderdash.

Of course you need to correct your dog every bit as much as praise/reward it in order to get your message across.

But ...correction rarely has to be physical and certainly never painful.

You communicate with your dog instead. Youv'e got a voice, hands, eyes, body language ...use them to signal your approval or disapproval. If proper communications are established, your dog will learn just as well and just as fast (if not better) than with any sort of intermediate gadget.

The only difficult issue in this process is not the dog ...but our human inability to blank out our erratic emotions. Our signals are inconsistent, contradictory, coloured by our moods ...and we talk too much nonsense instead of clear, consistent instructions.

That's why we are so tempted to use training aids and gadgets. Some of them are comparatively harmless, others not so ...but all of them remove us one step from direct communication with the dog. And woe be the day when we and our dog find ourselves in a difficult situation and left the gadget at home

For what it's worth ...I object not just to shock collars ...I find solely food-reward based training or clicker training just as bad (only that the dog usually isn't in pain when using these methods).

Throw away the gadgets, learn doggy language ...talk to your dogs !

Discodog · 24-10-2009 6:45pm

I had left this debate & I have supported Jimmyn but I have to comment on his last post. Until now I have supported to use of e-collars for specific difficult issues like recall in a potential chase situation but:

The idea of using an e-collar to get a dog to sit is insane.
The idea of continually punishing the dog until you get the right reaction is insane.
The idea that you shock the dog until you get the right response is barbaric.
In these situations I would deem an e-collar to be cruel.

I would strenuously oppose anyone using such methods.

The sole justifiable reason for using a radio controlled e-collar is when the dog is at distance from you & will not pay attention. When the dog is on a lead or close by there is absolutely no reason to use discomfort to get correct behaviour.

I have been with dogs who have been trained for Hare Coursing who will, with training, obey most recalls. The problem comes when there is an external influence like a cat or rabbit. I have seen e-collars used successfully in these situations.

The warning tone is critical. As soon as most dogs realise that a shock (not stim !) is preceded by a tone & on good collars a vibration, they will stop running at this warning. Greyhounds are very intelligent & it seems that most only ever get one or two shocks. Now I am not happy about that but I can justify it if it means that the dog can enjoy life off lead.
I would never support giving repeated shocks.

I have suggested that e-collars should only be available to trainers but if they are using them as Jimmyn suggests then I would rather see a total ban.

I totally agree with Peasant regarding the constant need for new fads & gadgets. Give your dog masses of love & affection. Give them a reason to obey you because they want to. Yes talk to your dogs & even more importantly listen to them. They may not be able to speak but when you have good relationship with your dog you will understand most of what they are trying to say. Why should they have to make all the effort to understand us ?. Being able to understand your dog makes the relationship so much better.

EDIT: I have just had a phone conversation with an old friend who works with the RSPCA regarding legal advice. He has said that such "training" as described in Jimmyn's last post would likely constitute a criminal offence in the UK.

macshadow · 26-10-2009 12:12am

jimmyn when i read your first post i thought great, someone with experience of using an e collar and can give a good account of how exactly it should be used, then you say you use it to teach a dog to sit:(
I don't have experience of the e collar only a radio fence, which has been broken about a year now, don't tell my dogs that though:D
One thing i do know 100000000000000000000000000% is that a dog should never be given a correction for not doing something it doesn't know how to do.
I just hope you made an error explaining how you use an e collar.

john p · 08-11-2009 1:36pm

What are the other options, Quit job stay home with dog so he does not bark, let dog bark when at work not really fair on the neighbours, or Irelands no 1 soloution take dog to the pound or to the vet to be put asleep, I use bark collar when i am out he doen not get shocked got it once or twice at first yes its not nice but my Dog is 5 years older lives a very happy life and is STILL ALIVE, and before anyone says if you cant be home with dog yo should not have a dog, That is not the real world,

Discodog · 08-11-2009 2:46pm

Take a few days off or a long weekend & with the help of a trainer (if you need one) find out why the dog barks & then correct it's behaviour. One possible solution is to get a second dog. It took me many years to see the benefit of two dogs & now I would never go back to one.

Two easy ways to assess how much a dog barks when you are away are a cctv camera - now really cheap or a voice activated recorder like a dictation machine. I once had a neighbour who commented that a rescue dog that I was fostering barked. The tape recorder revealed that it did for a total of 3 minutes !. If the dog is barking at outdoor noises then try leaving the radio on.

If needed I can leave my two for 12 hours in the kitchen with no mess or noise. They were both rescues that had not even been in a house until I got them. Mine never get left until they have had a 45 minute off lead walk. It means that I am up early & walking in the dark. When I get home they get another 45 minute walk. But the key is that they have each other for company.

My cctv revealed what I already knew - they sleep all day !

Shock Collars

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