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Is it time to arm ourselves with weapons?

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    #92
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    eire-kp wrote: »
    A pretty high percentage of houses in rural Ireland would have a gun of some sort in them I would have thought.

    A farmer/retired farmer is more likely to have one rather than someone from a non farming background as are (obviously) gun club members/hunters. I don't think the target shooter/collector demographic would be very large though or folks having guns solely for protection.


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    #93
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Lelantos wrote: »
    That is the saddest argument of all time, one which Americans trot out regularly h is debunked time & time again. Switzerland is a country not founded on violence, doesn't have a problem with part of its population having more chance of being incarcerated by the time they're 21 than being in college. They don't have a warring mindset, quite the opposite in fact. The people of Ireland are more like Americans than the Swiss, to many scores to be settled. Why not try arming the population for Saturdays Ulster flag march in Dublin & see how well it works out

    In fairness if those type of people wanted guns, they could get them quicker than the rest of us. No one is suggesting selling them down the local spar. Licences would still need to be issued, potential holders vetted etc.


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    #94
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,095 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    seamus wrote: »
    Absolutely. I never said I don't understand what he did, but it wasn't self-defence, not by a longshot. It was the action of a deeply troubled and terrified man.
    and why was he terrified?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #95
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    token101 wrote: »
    Pure and utter facetiousness. You know the difference, and you're just killing the debate.

    nah this did
    token101 wrote: »
    It probably isn't by the strict legal definitions, but he was a serial intruder. He won't come be coming back again, so he was defending himself against future attacks.

    when you suggest something illegal is ok on the grounds that the victim might come back if you let them live (im sure rapists use similar logic when they kill their victims) you have left the land of rational thought far behind
    Heshe won't be coming back again going to the garda, so he was defending himself against future attacks incarciration.
    see rapist homicide logic


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    #96
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    token101 wrote: »

    Pure and utter facetiousness. You know the difference, and you're just killing the debate.
    Not quite, stupid things happen when guns are in a house. Recent case of a father who shot & killed his 14 to daughter as she hid in a wardrobe to surprise him.


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    #97
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    Boombastic wrote: »
    Legalise handguns for home defense (or another appropriate weapon)

    You're probably right about being willing to use it, but maybe it would deter thieves?
    In that scenario, I can get a gun to defend my home, but use it to burgal yours


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    #98
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,095 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    when you suggest something illegal is ok on the grounds that the victim might come back if you let them live (im sure rapists use similar logic when they kill their victims) you have left the land of rational thought far behind
    Oh god... I love how the scumbag becomes the victim for the hand wringers.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #99
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    seamus wrote: »
    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-kellermann.htm

    One fairly substantial piece of research which says that having a gun in the house nearly triples your risk of being shot dead than if you don't.

    Naturally the research is for the states, where personal attitudes to gun ownership are far less sensible than the likes of the swiss, but seeing as Padraig Nally is the one calling for widespread arming of the civilian population, I see no reason to assume that Irish John McClane-wannabes will be any more sensible.

    Aaannd for every anti firearm study there is a pro firearm debunking of said study, which leaves us going around in circles.

    http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/rkba/kellerman.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Kellermann


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    #100
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Lelantos wrote: »
    In that scenario, I can get a gun to defend my home, but use it to burgal yours

    You can do that at the moment if you know the wrong people, only difference is I will be armed and meet you with equal resistance. If I heard the window break down stairs and had a gun, I'd be taking pot shots at you from the landing/some other advantage position.

    At the moment I am unarmed and at your mercy.



    Another alternative to guns might be tasers


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    #101
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Boombastic wrote: »
    You can do that at the moment if you know the wrong people, only difference is I will be armed and meet you with equal resistance. If I heard the window break down stairs and had a gun, I'd be taking pot shots at you from the landing/some other advantage position.

    At the moment I am unarmed and at your mercy.



    Another alternative to guns might be tasers

    Tasers are just as dangerous as guns if missused.


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    #102
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Wibbs wrote: »
    and why was he terrified?
    Because he'd been burgled a number of times before and feared for his property. Not for his life.

    I call bollocks to your "it's only stuff to you" argument tbh Wibbs. Objectively, it's only stuff. In reality, it's only stuff. What importance the individual attaches to their stuff is irrelevant.

    If I caught someone stealing my bike I would beat them to a bloody pulp, but I wholeheartedly accept that the legal system cannot nor should not account for my irrational sentimentality about what is a lump of steel, rubber and plastic, so I would receive a pretty harsh sentence.

    I cannot see any logical reasoning behind the idea that someone's personal feelings about their inanimate possessions is somehow so worth protecting that they should be legally allowed take someone else's life for it.


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    #103
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Oh god... I love how the scumbag becomes the victim for the hand wringers.

    seen how he was shot id say he came out the victim not saying he wasn't asking for trouble he was a scumbag but that dosen't mean he can be killed by those who feel they are better people and if someone robbing you justifies murder them give me bertie's address and Quinn's and Fitz's if i kill them its murder so is killing someone when they are no longer a threat to your safety


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    #104
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    seamus wrote: »
    Because he'd been burgled a number of times before and feared for his property. Not for his life.

    I call bollocks to your "it's only stuff to you" argument tbh Wibbs. Objectively, it's only stuff. In reality, it's only stuff. What importance the individual attaches to their stuff is irrelevant.

    If I caught someone stealing my bike I would beat them to a bloody pulp, but I wholeheartedly accept that the legal system cannot nor should not account for my irrational sentimentality about what is a lump of steel, rubber and plastic, so I would receive a pretty harsh sentence.

    I cannot see any logical reasoning behind the idea that someone's personal feelings about their inanimate possessions is somehow so worth protecting that they should be legally allowed take someone else's life for it.

    While it sounds awful what Nally went through, the Gardai should have done more or we should have better procedures in place to protect people in that situation.

    Killing someone who is not a direct threat to you or your families life at that moment should not be a solution.

    Nally was obviously afraid that the guy would come back and kill him but these things should be legislated for by the guards. I don't get this gung ho, every man for himself ideals a lot of blokes have.


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    #105
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Nally was obviously afraid that the guy would come back and kill him but these things should be legislated for by the guards. I don't get this gung ho, every man for himself ideals a lot of blokes have.

    I think you answered that yourself already. We all know what the Guards do. And with reports of squad cars out of petrol and officer told not to patrol, and with further cuts and career breaks and station closures, need I go on?


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    #106
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    Boombastic wrote: »

    You can do that at the moment if you know the wrong people, only difference is I will be armed and meet you with equal resistance. If I heard the window break down stairs and had a gun, I'd be taking pot shots at you from the landing/some other advantage position.

    At the moment I am unarmed and at your mercy.



    Another alternative to guns might be tasers
    And in the ensuing gun battle your wife or kids get shot, we have 1 of the safest countries in the Western world to live in because we don't have guns in the home. Once you start arming people, gun deaths go up & that's not an option imo


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    #107
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Lelantos wrote: »
    And in the ensuing gun battle your wife or kids get shot, we have 1 of the safest countries in the Western world to live in because we don't have guns in the home. Once you start arming people, gun deaths go up & that's not an option imo

    We'll have a procedure in place before hand, just like we've prepared what we'll do in the event of a fire


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    #108
    Cora Mahoney
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭Cora Mahoney


    seamus wrote: »
    Because he'd been burgled a number of times before and feared for his property. Not for his life.

    I call bollocks to your "it's only stuff to you" argument tbh Wibbs. Objectively, it's only stuff. In reality, it's only stuff. What importance the individual attaches to their stuff is irrelevant.

    If I caught someone stealing my bike I would beat them to a bloody pulp, but I wholeheartedly accept that the legal system cannot nor should not account for my irrational sentimentality about what is a lump of steel, rubber and plastic, so I would receive a pretty harsh sentence.

    I cannot see any logical reasoning behind the idea that someone's personal feelings about their inanimate possessions is somehow so worth protecting that they should be legally allowed take someone else's life for it.

    And suddenly YOU know the mind of a terrorized old man all on his own in the middle of nowhere? Frankly I am ashamed he had to endure the horrific existence he did for so long in a supposedly civilized country. I wish that bastard and any others of them that scare the ****e out of good people would be hung in the public square as used as pinatas for anyone passing by.

    And as for you dismissing the value of people's security and peace of mind in their own homes: ferget it. Any loser who decides he wants to steal not only people's hard earned possessions, but their internal sense of safety in the world deserves all he/she gets, and more.

    Now, OT but just two nights ago I happened to be awake very early due to my having the flu. I heard some strange noises outside my place, looked out, only to see two young bucks smashing the windows of cars all down my street, robbing them as they went. I went out after they had moved on a bit to see the damage:

    5 cars with windows smashed in, 2 cars with their tires slashed!:mad:

    I felt so sorry for all those people about to come out and start their day only to find this **** to welcome them. We are already living in a very precarious time with so many challenges weighing on people, incidents of simple robbery, as you view it, are not so innocent....it can push someone already barely hanging on right over the edge.

    **they caught the little bastards, btw**


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    #109
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Wow guys. I am an angry young woman who believes in the right to own guns, and i am vengeful as all hell

    And even i think shooting an injured man in the back as he tries to escape is deplorable. A little alarmed by how many of you think such an act is to be applauded.


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    #110
    Porkchop McGee
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Porkchop McGee


    laoch na mona wrote: »

    you don't need a gun to defend yourself protecting you property can be done many ways a good guard dog proper locks and doors on sheds cameras a hurley you don't need a gun having one would mean criminals would have more guns
    So what is your point? Are you saying it's ok if I beat the **** out of him with a hurley, just once I don't shoot him?

    You don't know the intention of someone who breaks into your home and, personally, I don't believe the innocent party should have to wait to find out just what the scum has in mind for their family. Guns are not the answer, an efficient and funtioning judicial system is, but since we don't have one and are unlikely to get one since money is being purged out of law enforcement, surely a citizen has a right to defend themselves in as quick and efficient a way as possible?


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    #111
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Feelgood wrote: »
    I am armed already, with my penis.

    A dangerous weapon that, one wrong thought, even while asleep, and it can go off prematurely.


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    #112
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    gbee wrote: »
    I think you answered that yourself already. We all know what the Guards do. And with reports of squad cars out of petrol and officer told not to patrol, and with further cuts and career breaks and station closures, need I go on?

    So then surely the answer is to have better procedures or support from the Guards? That's what they're there for. Handing people out guns and saying "look after yourself lads", is no solution.

    Obviously if more people are armed then the burglars will tool up accordingly.


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    #113
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,095 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    seamus wrote: »
    Because he'd been burgled a number of times before and feared for his property. Not for his life.
    He also feared for his life. Well you would do with some multiple convicted scumbag who liked slash hooks.
    I call bollocks to your "it's only stuff to you" argument tbh Wibbs. Objectively, it's only stuff. In reality, it's only stuff. What importance the individual attaches to their stuff is irrelevant.
    To you. At what point might stuff become relevant for you? Even the most sheldoncooperesque person attaches importance to stuff. It's a human thing. What about the sense of violation? Is that relevant for you? After all objectively someone has only taken stuff from another lump of stuff, their home.
    laoch na mona wrote:
    seen how he was shot id say he came out the victim not saying he wasn't asking for trouble he was a scumbag but that dosen't mean he can be killed by those who feel they are better people and if someone robbing you justifies murder them give me bertie's address and Quinn's and Fitz's if i kill them its murder so is killing someone when they are no longer a threat to your safety
    Oh oh, here we go. If you can equate a bunch of NAMA types with a convicted dangerous felon with a slashhook I think your passport to the "land of rational thought" has been revoked, or your Looney Left card has been approved.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #114
    Cora Mahoney
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭Cora Mahoney


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    Wow guys. I am an angry young woman who believes in the right to own guns, and i am vengeful as all hell

    And even i think shooting an injured man in the back as he tries to escape is deplorable. A little alarmed by how many of you think such an act is to be applauded.

    What floors me is how you can, in all honesty, characterize it like that. They terrorized him FOR YEARS. What part of that do you not understand?


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    #115
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,114 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    To most people in Mayo, and probably for that matter in rural Ireland, Nally is a hero who stood up to being harassed and terrorised by scumbags.

    ward should have been in jail, but the Gardaí couldn't do their jobs and arrest him.
    And even if they did, the fooking criminal excusers, like some of the posters here would be complaining about inequality, the inadequacies of the criminal justice system, how disadvantaged his life was, etc.

    Well to all the ones here who squak on about Nally and that people have no right to protect themselves or their property maybe you would have a different opinion if you saw an elderly relative or neighbour living alone going to bed in fear every night.
    And trust me that is what happens.

    How would you like to be leaving an elderly relative or neighbours house and listening to them padlock themselves into their bedroom where they have a slasher under the bed for protection in case their nightmare comes through that night.
    And the nearest Garda station with one car is 10/20 plus miles away.

    The justice system and Gardaí failed people like Nally just as they have failed people like Eddie Fitzmaurice in Bellaghy/Charlestown
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/man-83-tied-and-left-to-die-by-heartless-gang-444761.html

    or Tommy Casey in Oranmore.
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/six-years-for-manslaughter-of-robbery-victim-left-to-die-316422.html

    See the guy in Tommy Casey's case was given only 6 years and only charged with mansalughter.
    That is what Tommy Casey's life was worth. :mad:

    There isn't even that for poor old Eddie Fitzmaurice as no one has been brought to book for his murder.

    Would all those anti Nally people rather he ended up another news headline like the two men above ?

    It is about time ordinary decent people in this country had their rights enforced rather than always hearing how the rights of scumbags who have never contributed anything to our society should be protected. :mad:


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    #116
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    Boombastic wrote: »

    We'll have a procedure in place before hand, just like we've prepared what we'll do in the event of a fire
    I hope that works out for you


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    #117
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Lelantos wrote: »
    I hope that works out for you

    I'll let you know after they give me my gun:mad::pac:


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    #118
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Wibbs wrote: »
    To you. At what point might stuff become relevant for you? Even the most sheldoncooperesque person attaches importance to stuff. It's a human thing. What about the sense of violation? Is that relevant for you? After all objectively someone has only taken stuff from another lump of stuff, their home.

    It still doesn't justify killing someone.

    It makes for mitigating circumstances. I personally hold precious a lot of material things and would probably in rage do bad things to someone who damaged them or was trying to rob them, but in the cold light of day I wasn't acting rationally and the laws would have to treat me as such.

    You can't govern by emotion, I killed him because he was robbing me but listen, I was stressed and angry at the time.


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    #119
    Extinction
    Closed Accounts Posts: 745 ✭✭✭Extinction


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    Wow guys. I am an angry young woman who believes in the right to own guns, and i am vengeful as all hell

    And even i think shooting an injured man in the back as he tries to escape is deplorable. A little alarmed by how many of you think such an act is to be applauded.

    The injured voilent criminals actions were deplorable, Nally probably prevented many more people from being on the receiving end of voilence from that thug. At a guess I'd imagine Nally was terrified and only did what he thought he had to do in the circumstances.


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    #120
    Thomas20
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭Thomas20


    Ush1 wrote: »
    I don't get this gung ho, every man for himself ideals a lot of blokes have.
    I don't get why everybody wants the state to do everything for them and take no personal responsibility for their actions.
    That scumbag had 80 convictions, mental health problems and was acting suspicious weeks prior to this incident. Nally did the correct thing and was left with no option
    Ush1 wrote: »
    So then surely the answer is to have better procedures or support from the Guards? That's what they're there for. Handing people out guns and saying "look after yourself lads", is no solution.
    Obviously if more people are armed then the burglars will tool up accordingly.
    The Guards can do nothing to stop someone from entering your home, we can't have one at every house, so you need to take personal responsibility and protect yourself/your family and property.


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    #121
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    such an act is to be applauded.

    No so much applauded, as it being a forced hand.


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