Is it time to arm ourselves with weapons?

seamus · 10-01-2013 10:46am

Bambi wrote: »

I'd love to see the research behind that.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-kellermann.htm

One fairly substantial piece of research which says that having a gun in the house nearly triples your risk of being shot dead than if you don't.

Naturally the research is for the states, where personal attitudes to gun ownership are far less sensible than the likes of the swiss, but seeing as Padraig Nally is the one calling for widespread arming of the civilian population, I see no reason to assume that Irish John McClane-wannabes will be any more sensible.

Dravokivich · 10-01-2013 10:49am

We don't need'em. Irish society is too self obsorbed, introverted and Mé Féin as it is. Promoting common gun ownership will have a risk to cause more problems than it'll solve, because a lot of people will get impatient and decide to use what they can.

token101 · 10-01-2013 10:51am

seamus wrote: »

Padraig Nally shot a fleeing injured man in the back a violent, serial intruder. What would he know about self defence?

Plenty, since I doubt he's been robbed by the same guy since. The Gardai obviously weren't a help, the guy had resorted to sleeping in his barn after constant attacks FFS. I find it absolutely disgusting that this scumbag was painted as a victim by people, as if his rights are paramount when he decided to repeatedly torment someone. And his family coming out in aftermath playing the 'he didn't get justice because he was a traveller' card was even more vile.

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 10:54am

seamus wrote: »

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-kellermann.htm

One fairly substantial piece of research which says that having a gun in the house nearly triples your risk of being shot dead than if you don't.
.................

According to that study, the risk increases because you are more likely to be killed in a drunken family argument gone wrong, not because a burglar used your own weapon against you.

gobnaitolunacy · 10-01-2013 10:57am

Dravokivich wrote: »

We don't need'em. Irish society is too self obsorbed, introverted and Mé Féin as it is. Promoting common gun ownership will have a risk to cause more problems than it'll solve, because a lot of people will get impatient and decide to use what they can.

+1. The criminal justice system needs a major overhaul instead. If the guy had been put away when he started causing trouble, the Nally case would never have happened.

Besides, law on gun ownership here is waay stricter than the states so I don't see a mass arming happening. That is not to say that incidents with legally held weapons don't happen, but compared to the states the frequency of these is microscopic.

laoch na mona · 10-01-2013 10:58am

Porkchop McGee wrote: »

As ever, perspective counts for a lot. If you live in an urban area, assistance can be no more than a few metres away. In rural settings, however, your nearest neighbour might be a few hundred metres away, out of earshot of even the loudest of your screams. Now consider that and the kind of total darkness you get in rural areas at night, factor in that the nearest Garda station might be twenty miles away, how many of you would feel comfortable being defenseless in those circumstances should someone decide to invade your property? Hindsight is wonderful but if someone has decided to intrude into your house at night it is a natural reaction to want to defend your health and your property because there isn't anyone else to do it for you.

you don't need a gun to defend yourself protecting you property can be done many ways a good guard dog proper locks and doors on sheds cameras a hurley you don't need a gun having one would mean criminals would have more guns

Gulliver wrote: »

Where did I say ALL burglar are rapists? I said these were potential scenarios. And statistically, one scenario could involve rape.

What a jolly world you live in where someone breaks into your house and you know they DEFINITELY don't want to sexually assault you/your family, because, y'know they're BURGLARS. Did they make an appointment first?

To the Homeowner

At 2:30 AM I will be:
[x]Burgling you with no violence
[ ]Burgling you with violence
[ ]Raping You
[ ]Leaving Chocolate mints on your pillows so they will be stuck to you when you wake up (muahahaha!)

See you then.

don't be ridiculous of course you don't know but a gun wouldn't help they would rob you, rape you/a family member if they wanted to and then rob your gun or use it to dispose of the witnesses

laoch na mona · 10-01-2013 11:01am

token101 wrote: »

Plenty, since I doubt he's been robbed by the same guy since. The Gardai obviously weren't a help, the guy had resorted to sleeping in his barn after constant attacks FFS. I find it absolutely disgusting that this scumbag was painted as a victim by people, as if his rights are paramount when he decided to repeatedly torment someone. And his family coming out in aftermath playing the 'he didn't get justice because he was a traveller' card was even more vile.

how is shooting a man in the back while he crawls away self defense

Thomas20 · 10-01-2013 11:04am

laoch na mona wrote: »

how is shooting a man in the back while he crawls away self defense

Make sure that scum never comes back to terrorise him.

Gulliver · 10-01-2013 11:06am

seamus wrote: »

That's all fine and well and good. However the reality is that murder-burglaries are exceptionally rare. Most of the time there is no confrontation between the property owner and the burglar whatsoever. Even when there is, the property owner is typically caught off-guard.

The instances of (a) the property owner realising they're being burgled and (b) confronting the burglars, are few and far between. If people are armed, then you may turn them into have-a-go heroes. Or more likely, if people are armed then the burglars won't bother waking you up with a boiled kettle, they'll wake you up with a knife to your throat or a gun to your head.

I cannot see any benefit to allowing people to arm themselves to protect themselves. It's simply not necessary. We don't live in Sierra Leon with gangs of roaming marauders threatening us every day.

I agree with the murder thing - and I didn't actually specify that any of my scenarios ended in death. You can still be left alive and scarred from someone asking you with a knife/kettle/bat for the "hidden money" they think you have.

Whilst I agree most burglaries are over before you know it, I would disagree with not having the ability to defend yourself if the situation (safely) presented itself.

Ush1 · 10-01-2013 11:06am

While I empathise with people wanting justice against burglars, do we honestly think the very best solution we can come up with is killing them?

gbee · 10-01-2013 11:07am

seamus wrote: »

Padraig Nally shot a fleeing injured man in the back. What would he know about self defence?

And we all heard what the court heard and the torture that the farmer had to endure for years prior.

laoch na mona · 10-01-2013 11:09am

Thomas20 wrote: »

Make sure that scum never comes back to terrorise him.

but you have no right to kill someone id understand if it was self defense but its murder im sure it was heat of the moment adrenaline that caused it but there are lads in the joy for the same thing going to far in an instant

cocobear · 10-01-2013 11:09am

seamus wrote: »

Padraig Nally shot a fleeing injured man in the back. What would he know about self defence?

The poor man had been terrorised,
The only thing a certain section of our society is afraid of is a gun.
Mine is loaded every night, my doors are locked when I go to bed, anyone entering my house is fair game, I will shoot first, ask questions later, and ring the emergency services when they have bled out.

Dravokivich · 10-01-2013 11:10am

gbee wrote: »

And we all heard what the court heard and the torture that the farmer had to endure for years prior.

The justice system needs to be revised, not taken into the public's hands.

token101 · 10-01-2013 11:11am

laoch na mona wrote: »

how is shooting a man in the back while he crawls away self defense

It probably isn't by the strict legal definitions, but he was a serial intruder. He won't come be coming back again, so he was defending himself against future attacks.

Thomas20 · 10-01-2013 11:14am

laoch na mona wrote: »

but you have no right to kill someone id understand if it was self defense but its murder im sure it was heat of the moment adrenaline that caused it but there are lads in the joy for the same thing going to far in an instant

If someone enters your property you should have every right to ensure your safety and the safety of your loved ones whatever that may entail.
And yes you most certainly do have every right to kill someone.

laoch na mona · 10-01-2013 11:15am

gbee wrote: »

And we all heard what the court heard and the torture that the farmer had to endure for years prior.

its cliche but it alone is enough of an argument against your point

two wrong don't make a right

seamus · 10-01-2013 11:16am

gbee wrote: »

And we all heard what the court heard and the torture that the farmer had to endure for years prior.

Absolutely. I never said I don't understand what he did, but it wasn't self-defence, not by a longshot. It was the action of a deeply troubled and terrified man.

So forgive me for not lending any weight to his opinions on self-defence.

laoch na mona · 10-01-2013 11:17am

Thomas20 wrote: »

If someone enters your property you should have every right to ensure your safety and the safety of your loved ones whatever that may entail.
And yes you most certainly do have every right to kill someone.

in self defense yes not while they're crawling away and no longer on your property

Lelantos · 10-01-2013 11:21am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Like how the punishment for burglary is death? Why wouldn't it surprise me with some of the inbalances in sentences being given out in this country.

No we shouldnt arm ourselves with weapons. IMO one of the reasons there is such a problem implementing gun control in America is because they have been so available for hundreds of years that there's now hundreds of millions out amongst the populace. Why would anyone want to be denied a gun knowing that millions of others have them, I wouldnt want to see a similar situation in Ireland.

Find the criminals involved in the burglaries and throw them in a cell with some big baldy bull qu**r for 5 years.

Of course arming ourselves is a bad idea, clondalkin would end up looking like sarajevo!
On a side note, I didn't know John Hayes was in jail!

laoch na mona · 10-01-2013 11:21am

token101 wrote: »

It probably isn't by the strict legal definitions, but he was a serial intruder. He won't come be coming back again, so he was defending himself against future attacks.

my postman is a serial intruder coming up to my door without permission sometimes while i sleep can I kill him

Lelantos · 10-01-2013 11:23am

Boombastic wrote: »

and religion shouldn't be allowed, just look at the Westboro baptist church:rolleyes:

Just look at the history of all religion

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 11:25am

Lelantos wrote: »

Of course arming ourselves is a bad idea, clondalkin would end up looking like sarajevo!
On a side note, I didn't know John Hayes was in jail!

Sorry, for Rural dwellers only..maybe the gardai could carryout a risk assessment before issuing licences similar system that is in place now

eire-kp · 10-01-2013 11:25am

A pretty high percentage of houses in rural Ireland would have a gun of some sort in them I would have thought.

Lets be honest if your going to shoot some one in the middle of the night in your house your going to have to get pretty close to make sure to its not some drunk who wandered in or something like that.

Also in an enclosed area like kitchen or sitting room etc a shotgun with a 28" barrel or bolt action rifle etc is a pretty limited firearm which could easily get taken out of your hands if there's more than one intruder.

There's a reason the Americans call their short barrel with no stock pump action shotguns "home defense guns".

If you bring a gun into the equation id imagine 70% of the time you will have no choice to use , or else it will end up getting used on you or your family.

token101 · 10-01-2013 11:25am

laoch na mona wrote: »

my postman is a serial intruder coming up to my door without permission sometimes while i sleep can I kill him

Pure and utter facetiousness. You know the difference, and you're just killing the debate.

Ush1 · 10-01-2013 11:29am

Lets not forget Nally beat the guy with a stick before he shot him the second time. It was in no way self defense at that point.

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 11:29am

eire-kp wrote: »

A pretty high percentage of houses in rural Ireland would have a gun of some sort in them I would have thought.

Lets be honest if your going to shoot some one in the middle of the night in your house your going to have to get pretty close to make sure to its not some drunk who wandered in or something like that.

Also in an enclosed area like kitchen or sitting room etc a shotgun with a 28" barrel or bolt action rifle etc is a pretty limited firearm which could easily get taken out of your hands if there's more than one intruder.

There's a reason the Americans call their short barrel with no stock pump action shotguns "home defense guns".

If you bring a gun into the equation id imagine 70% of the time you will have no choice to use but to use it, or else it will end up getting used on you or your family.

Legalise handguns for home defense (or another appropriate weapon)

You're probably right about being willing to use it, but maybe it would deter thieves?

Boombastic · 10-01-2013 11:30am

Ush1 wrote: »

Lets not forget Nally beat the guy with a stick before he shot him the second time. It was in no way self defense at that point.

Should sticks be banned?

Wibbs · 10-01-2013 11:31am

seamus wrote: »

I'm not sure at what point your right to protect some aribtrary piece of property trumps someone else's right to life.

Protect yourself and your family, fine, but I see no logic in allowing someone to use lethal force to protect property. It's just stuff.

With respect S and it's bloody rare I'd disagree with you, but I call Bollocks on that. It's just stuff to you. TBH I can't abide this argument. "Ah sure it's just stuff, the insurance will take care of it". A persons home, their personal space has been violated and for many that home is no longer the safe space it once was. Caught an interview recently with a woman with a couple of kids whose house was burgled on xmas day(nice touch from the scum) and they wrecked the place, took everything, the kids toys, even one childs nightlight FFS. Her and her kids were visibly traumatised, but sure it's just stuff right? For many it's akin to a rape of their safe place. I've known people to immediately sell on a car that was stolen and recovered because it felt "wrong", extend that to your house/flat/whatever. For those living in the middle of nowhere, especially if they've already been targeted that level of fear of further violation must be terrible. I've seen an elderly neighbour in the suburbs end up dying by her own hand after a burglary. Again all they took was "stuff", she wasn't even in the house.

laoch na mona wrote: »

how is shooting a man in the back while he crawls away self defense

Well it makes sure he won't be coming back anyway. Plus the blood was up. It's not like the movies all clean and organised.

As for arming everyone, no I wouldn't like that. Most rural chaps and chapesses I'd know already have a shotgun anyway. The Nally case shows that it was unusual for a farmer to fight back, though I personally know of a couple of incidents where a gun was brandished, in one case fired as a warning, so the thought of an armed nutter has likely put scum off.

Lelantos · 10-01-2013 11:31am

the_syco wrote: »

Saying guns are bad due, look at the the USA, is like saying alcohol is bad, look at Ireland.

How abut we look at Switzerland who has a good gun culture? http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/

That is the saddest argument of all time, one which Americans trot out regularly h is debunked time & time again. Switzerland is a country not founded on violence, doesn't have a problem with part of its population having more chance of being incarcerated by the time they're 21 than being in college. They don't have a warring mindset, quite the opposite in fact. The people of Ireland are more like Americans than the Swiss, to many scores to be settled. Why not try arming the population for Saturdays Ulster flag march in Dublin & see how well it works out

Is it time to arm ourselves with weapons?

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