Child Protection.....has society gone over the top in its desire to protect children?

12-09-2013 12:44pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Proves my point: we can not complain about people being paranoid about pedophilia and then being paranoid ourselves. As someone said, the chances of a child being abducted from a public place by someone they do not know is virtually nil.

I'm not being paranoid, you suggested a scenario that I'm trying to get specifics on.

sbsquarepants · 12-09-2013 12:48pm

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

That's a circular argument.

True!
I think we have gone too far as a society, in so far as it is becoming counterproductive - as safety measures tend to do, just look at the ridiculous amount of health and safety in the workplace these days, practically everybody in industry these days has to wear high viz clothing regardless of the conditions they work in. If you are in a well lit factory in the bloody daytime, you do not need high viz clothing - it's ridiculous, but everyone else is doing it so you're seen as reckless if you don't!
But you get the same argument there as you do with child protection - you can never be too safe, and how can you argue for any amount of risk where kids are involved? But life involves risk, it's unavoidable, where we're going wrong is we're focusing on things that most likely wouldn't happen anyway, even if we completely ignored them. Like the high viz vest - if the forks driver can't see me, in my normal clothes in the middle of the bloody day, he shouldn't be driving a forklift!
It would be a lot cheaper and probably more effective to have mandatory eye tests for drivers than high viz clothes for the whole bloody country! The focus is wrong. It's uncle Jimmy that's going to abuse your kids - not some monster with a sex dungeon buried out his back garden.

anncoates · 12-09-2013 12:50pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Disagree. I mean, it might have been in it;s infancy, but it;s onlt in the last 10-15 years it's gotten out of hand. I think the dawn of the internet and people getting prosecuted for having child porn (and I mean actual child porn, not just pictures of naked kids on a beach or the garden) on their computers was the turning point.

I was actually going to trawl around for some tabloid pedo stuff fro the era then suddenly remembered I was in work...

sbsquarepants · 12-09-2013 1:12pm

anncoates wrote: »

I was actually going to trawl around for some tabloid pedo stuff fro the era then suddenly remembered I was in work...

Eh, we've noticed some unusual activity in your internet usage....:eek:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-09-2013 1:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not being paranoid, you suggested a scenario that I'm trying to get specifics on.

Fair point, two cases.

1 - You know the kid but not the adult. DO you appraoch?

2 - You know nothing and the kid's obviously distressed. Do you go over and ask the guy if he's the kid's Dad? Do you ask a security guard?

Personally, I'd be pissed off if I was a father who was questioned about my relationship to the child and no, you're not just being cautious.

Mr Benevolent · 12-09-2013 1:18pm

Unusually for AH we seem to be mostly in agreement on this topic. The last point I want to make is this:

If you hear someone talking about 'the paedophile threat', do your best to explain to them that 99% of child sexual and physical abuse is done by parents or close family members, that 'stranger danger' is utterly stupid, nd 100% of any 'van in an estate handing out sweets' rumours are utterly false, usually fabricated by Jeremy Kyle watchers. We can all do our bit to stamp out this dangerous undercurrent of rumours and bizzare logic.

OldNotWIse · 12-09-2013 1:26pm

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

The accused should definitely have anonymity. The way that guy's name was dragged through the mud as if he was guilty, before the verdict was even reached, is disgusting.

Agree. He is innocent but his name has been dragged through the mud.

She made malicious and false accusations and her identity has been protected.

12-09-2013 1:42pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair point, two cases.

1 - You know the kid but not the adult. DO you appraoch?

2 - You know nothing and the kid's obviously distressed. Do you go over and ask the guy if he's the kid's Dad? Do you ask a security guard?

Personally, I'd be pissed off if I was a father who was questioned about my relationship to the child and no, you're not just being cautious.

1 - I can't imagine knowing a kid and not knowing both parents.

2 - No. Crying kids are pretty common and I've never felt like intervening.

I won't deny I sometimes have fleeting "What if I just walked past someone getting kidnapped" thoughts but only in the same way I have fleeting "What if someone grabbed that gun" when there's a big money transfer or whatever in a bank.

Christy42 · 12-09-2013 2:11pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Agree. He is innocent but his name has been dragged through the mud.

She made malicious and false accusations and her identity has been protected.

He is not guilty. It has just not been proven that he did it. Unless it was proven that she did make up false accusations her identity should be protected. I think his also should have been protected, except in the case of a guilty verdict. She also has and should have the benefits of innocent till proven guilty. While one or the other is lying, until it is proven that one is lying (rather than not proving the other is lying), they should both be protected.

OldNotWIse · 12-09-2013 2:52pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Bus ****....?? (Sorry!)

I'm going to turn this on it's head: how many people - and be honest - if they saw a man with a crying child who to whom he was not related or in loco parentis - would think something might be up?

It's not just the media who are responsibel for for goign OTT.

How would one know he wasn't related or in loco parentis?

the_syco · 12-09-2013 2:53pm

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

I really hope men are not avoiding volunteering with kids for fear of being labelled a paedophile.

Started Scouts as a cub, and only left when I was too old for ventures.

Had originally planned to go back to become a leader when I got a stable permanent job, but think I'll now leave it until I have kids in the unit.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576073752925629440.html

A quote from the above article;

Another dad told me about taking his three-year-old to play football in the local park, where he'd help organize the slightly older kids into a game. Over time, one of the kids started to look up to him. "He wanted to stand close to me, wanted approval, Dad stuff, I guess. And because of this whole 'stranger danger' mentality, I could sense this sort of wary disapproval from the few other parents at the playground. So I just stopped going."

If someone grows up without a father, there's even less chance of there being a male role model in their life, out of fear of being marked as a peado.

Zen65 wrote: »

The guy seems especially vile, but (if I read it correctly) he did not actually hurt anyone.

He had gotten to the stage where he was talking about who they were going to abduct. Way beyond any sort of sick fantasy.

Zen65 wrote: »

However disturbing his actions, the crime he committed was distribution of kiddie porn

4,500 trades of child pornography between Portway and others, it would seem. Also;

Over months, Portway repeatedly solicited Arnett to kidnap a child for him, with the intent that Portway would ultimately rape, kill and eat that child.
These solicitations for help in abducting a child included discussing real children, by name and photo, that Arnett claimed to know and have access.

OldNotWIse · 12-09-2013 3:01pm

Christy42 wrote: »

He is not guilty. It has just not been proven that he did it. Unless it was proven that she did make up false accusations her identity should be protected. I think his also should have been protected, except in the case of a guilty verdict. She also has and should have the benefits of innocent till proven guilty. While one or the other is lying, until it is proven that one is lying (rather than not proving the other is lying), they should both be protected.

What on earth are you talking about?

Knasher · 12-09-2013 3:31pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

What on earth are you talking about?

I'd guess its because a court doesn't declare people innocent of a crime, they declare them to be not guilty, the difference being that when you are declared not guilty it is because the defence wasn't able to present sufficient evidence to prove your guilt. Possibly because you actually are innocent and such evidence doesn't exist, or possibly because you are guilty but lucky/smart enough not to leave enough evidence to get caught. No idea where this particular case falls, but it seems as reckless to assume guilt on her half as it is to assume guilt on his.

OldNotWIse · 12-09-2013 3:40pm

Knasher wrote: »

I'd guess its because a court doesn't declare people innocent of a crime, they declare them to be not guilty, the difference being that when you are declared not guilty it is because the defence wasn't able to present sufficient evidence to prove your guilt. Possibly because you actually are innocent and such evidence doesn't exist, or possibly because you are guilty but lucky/smart enough not to leave enough evidence to get caught. No idea where this particular case falls, but it seems as reckless to assume guilt on her half as it is to assume guilt on his.

Suppose...I'd be pretty p1ssed though, if I was cleared of all charges and then someone said "I dont actually believe you're innocent - I think they just had nothing on you" :rolleyes:

JosephDoyleIre · 12-09-2013 3:41pm

Is it just me or is youth work dominated by females? It's only a thought, but could this be the reason why? Not my personal opinion, just interesting... Are there actually men who would really like to work with young people but aren't doing so for fear of, as another poster said, being labelled a paedophile?

AudreyHepburn · 12-09-2013 3:43pm

JosephDoyleIre wrote: »

Is it just me or is youth work dominated by females? It's only a thought, but could this be the reason why? Not my personal opinion, just interesting... Are there actually men who would really like to work with young people but aren't doing so for fear of, as another poster said, being labelled a paedophile?

Not just you...you are quite right and this is exactly the reason why imo.

People are just to quick to judge and cry foul in this day and age. And frankly it's sad.

tritium · 12-09-2013 3:43pm

Knasher wrote: »

I'd guess its because a court doesn't declare people innocent of a crime, they declare them to be not guilty, the difference being that when you are declared not guilty it is because the defence wasn't able to present sufficient evidence to prove your guilt. Possibly because you actually are innocent and such evidence doesn't exist, or possibly because you are guilty but lucky/smart enough not to leave enough evidence to get caught. No idea where this particular case falls, but it seems as reckless to assume guilt on her half as it is to assume guilt on his.

A court cannot declare someone innocent on the general course of things*- that is there presumed state under the law. All a court can do is assess whether there is sufficient evidence to alter that presumption. People who talk about "he wasn't found innocent" are only displaying ignorance of this.

*as I understand there are a few exceptions wrt miscarriages of justice

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-09-2013 3:44pm

JosephDoyleIre wrote: »

Is it just me or is youth work dominated by females? It's only a thought, but could this be the reason why? Not my personal opinion, just interesting... Are there actually men who would really like to work with young people but aren't doing so for fear of, as another poster said, being labelled a paedophile?

I'm pretty sure a few people have posted in this thread that they would be.

Zen65 · 12-09-2013 3:48pm

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

Child marriages are common in many parts of the world and have been for hundreds of years. Not every country conforms to your expectations.

So is female genital mutilation. If being "common" was the same as being "morally correct" then slavery would still be in fashion.

Did I miss your point?

Z

Boskowski · 12-09-2013 3:50pm

clairefontaine wrote: »

... But yes I can see how a plane, long haul could be a perfect environment for a predator.

A long haul flight with stringent identity and security controls on either side. Being tugged into a long metal tube with no exits and 300 people in close proximity. You can't even get up out of your seat without raising the attention of the cabin crew.

Sounds like the perfect environment for any kind of criminal activity really. Especially snatching kids.

Seriously?

Zen65 · 12-09-2013 3:51pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But...and this is the point of this thread....you cannot and should not allowed stories like this colour your view. You can't allow yourself to conclude that because some men are monsters all men are.

Absolutely agree 100%.

Zen65 · 12-09-2013 4:03pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'm going to turn this on it's head: how many people - and be honest - if they saw a man with a crying child who to whom he was not related or in loco parentis - would think something might be up?

I have intervened where I encountered a man with a girl (she could have been anything from 12 - 15 years old . . it's hard to say) where he was holding her in a threatening manner and she looked uneasy. It turned out he was her father and they were arguing about her being out of the house late on a school night. But if it was a child, honestly it's too hard to judge if anything is awry between them. Parents regularly discipline their kids in public, and it's very risky to cry foul in those circumstances.

Z

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-09-2013 4:19pm

Zen65 wrote: »

I have intervened where I encountered a man with a girl (she could have been anything from 12 - 15 years old . . it's hard to say) where he was holding her in a threatening manner and she looked uneasy. It turned out he was her father and they were arguing about her being out of the house late on a school night. But if it was a child, honestly it's too hard to judge if anything is awry between them. Parents regularly discipline their kids in public, and it's very risky to cry foul in those circumstances.

Z

For ****s sake, a 12-15 year old girl I would assume to be very capable of screamig the place down and attracting attention in the event of an attempted abduction!

Mr Benevolent · 12-09-2013 4:28pm

Zen65 wrote: »

So is female genital mutilation. If being "common" was the same as being "morally correct" then slavery would still be in fashion.

Did I miss your point?

Completely. 'Common' and 'legal' are not the same thing. Neither are 'legal' and 'morally correct'.

Zen65 · 12-09-2013 4:33pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

For ****s sake, a 12-15 year old girl I would assume to be very capable of screamig the place down and attracting attention in the event of an attempted abduction!

Abduction? No, I was not thinking that, it just looked like an assault.

A high percentage of people being assaulted lose their ability to speak or scream as a result of the adrenaline rush. I'm guessing that even a 12 year old girl who can talk for Ireland is likely to find it difficult to talk in those circumstances.

Furthermore, even if she did scream the vast majority of onlookers would not intervene. I teach karate and self-defence and whenever I speak to victims this is what they say scared and shocked them the most . . . nobody stepped in to help them.

Z

jimgoose · 12-09-2013 4:36pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

For ****s sake, a 12-15 year old girl I would assume to be very capable of screamig the place down and attracting attention in the event of an attempted abduction!

Never a truer word spake. Anyone who doubts this should have a go at getting a fifteen-year-old girl to do something that's wholesome and good for her but that she doesn't want to do!

Zen65 · 12-09-2013 4:37pm

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

'Common' and 'legal' are not the same thing. Neither are 'legal' and 'morally correct'.

On this we agree.

So, the story of the 8 year-old brides does not seem wrong to you? Or do you consider it scaremongering to post a link to it because it is common?

Handsome Bob · 12-09-2013 4:44pm

JosephDoyleIre wrote: »

Is it just me or is youth work dominated by females? It's only a thought, but could this be the reason why? Not my personal opinion, just interesting... Are there actually men who would really like to work with young people but aren't doing so for fear of, as another poster said, being labelled a paedophile?

Men do have an interest in that sector, but it's quite a difficult one to break into if you are male. I'd say the amount of young women in "entry positions" in youth work far outweighs the amount of males in the same position. I think you'll find the majority of men in the sector within the 35-50 age bracket, and they would have entered the sector when recruitment requirements were far more lax.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-09-2013 4:45pm

Zen65 wrote: »

Abduction? No, I was not thinking that, it just looked like an assault.

A high percentage of people being assaulted lose their ability to speak or scream as a result of the adrenaline rush. I'm guessing that even a 12 year old girl who can talk for Ireland is likely to find it difficult to talk in those circumstances.

Furthermore, even if she did scream the vast majority of onlookers would not intervene. I teach karate and self-defence and whenever I speak to victims this is what they say scared and shocked them the most . . . nobody stepped in to help them.

Z

Assaults in public places I will report and do not ever get involved in, but that would be the same irrespective of whether it involved a child or not. Absolutely no reason for me to stick my nose in.

Zen65 · 12-09-2013 4:48pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Assaults in public places I will report and do not ever get involved in, but that would be the same irrespective of whether it involved a child or not. Absolutely no reason for me to stick my nose in.

You are correct in that approach. It is especially the case in domestic disputes that the person who intervenes is likely to be attacked by both of the people who were fighting.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-09-2013 4:51pm

Zen65 wrote: »

You are correct in that approach. It is especially the case in domestic disputes that the person who intervenes is likely to be attacked by both of the people who were fighting.

... which is why I fell there is abolutely no need to interfer is both unwanted and, if you think something untoward is going on, you're just adding to the hysteria.

Zen65 · 12-09-2013 5:02pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

... which is why I fell there is abolutely no need to interfer is both unwanted and, if you think something untoward is going on, you're just adding to the hysteria.

That may be true in general. In the specific instance where I got involved I did so because I was driving past and felt that if this was a real assault (it did look that way to me and to the other passengers in the car with me) then the consequences for the girl could have been very serious. I approached the pair slowly, talking calmly and explaining why I was questioning what was going on. I got a very polite explanation from them, so the matter ended there. If it had been two adults taking swipes at each other I would not have intervened for exactly the reason you posted.

Nettle · 12-09-2013 5:10pm

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Men do have an interest in that sector, but it's quite a difficult one to break into if you are male. I'd say the amount of young women in "entry positions" in youth work far outweighs the amount of males in the same position. I think you'll find the majority of men in the sector within the 35-50 age bracket, and they would have entered the sector when recruitment requirements were far more lax.

It's not a hard area for a male to break into, in fact it's one area that is crying out for males to work in, in the majority of cases where makes so work thy tend to get paid more than their female co workers and its based totally on the act they are males

Handsome Bob · 12-09-2013 5:16pm

Nettle wrote: »

It's not a hard area for a male to break into, in fact it's one area that is crying out for males to work in, in the majority of cases where makes so work thy tend to get paid more than their female co workers and its based totally on the act they are males

Well I'll give you an example; I know a woman who got a paid position in a youth residential setting without having any experience working with children previously.

A male would never have such an opportunity, and will most likely have to start as a volunteer in the sector if he wants to break into it. Not that there's anything wrong with volunteering, given I've done it myself.

You're right though, it is a sector crying out for males as is the case with the general social care sector.

Nettle · 12-09-2013 5:27pm

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Well I'll give you an example; I know a woman who got a paid position in a youth residential setting without having any experience working with children previously.

A male would never have such an opportunity, and will most likely have to start as a volunteer in the sector if he wants to break into it. Not that there's anything wrong with volunteering, given I've done it myself.

You're right though, it is a sector crying out for males as is the case with the general social care sector.

I have worked in the area for the last 12 years, in youth work addiction services and residential work and I have never heard of a male being turned away. I would almost go as far as saying that once a male has his Garda vetting and has or is in the process of attaining a qualification they will be employed

Nettle · 12-09-2013 5:28pm

Nettle wrote: »

I have worked in the area for the last 12 years, in youth work addiction services and residential work and I have never heard of a male being turned away. I would almost go as far as saying that once a male has his Garda vetting and has or is in the process of attaining a qualification they will be employed

In residential area's sector there is no volunteer roles

Handsome Bob · 12-09-2013 5:49pm

Nettle wrote: »

I have worked in the area for the last 12 years, in youth work addiction services and residential work and I have never heard of a male being turned away. I would almost go as far as saying that once a male has his Garda vetting and has or is in the process of attaining a qualification they will be employed

Without any experience? Have a look at any job description/spec and you'll find that it's not just about having a qualification. 2 years paid experience is the minimum usually asked.

Nettle · 12-09-2013 6:01pm

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Without any experience? Have a look at any job description/spec and you'll find that it's not just about having a qualification. 2 years paid experience is the minimum usually asked.

They say that but I can say that the majority of males would be given an interview. I worked with a male who walked into the job from college and be paid more than me despite my experience and qualifications

Handsome Bob · 12-09-2013 7:02pm

Nettle wrote: »

They say that but I can say that the majority of males would be given an interview. I worked with a male who walked into the job from college and be paid more than me despite my experience and qualifications

Well that is a joke as it's the type of thing that doesn't help team morale, was it the same role?

As for most males getting an interview, I worked in an unrelated social care sector for nearly a year and a half and had built up a pretty good CV (educated to masters level as well), but even then I didn't get one interview in 9 months for any youth work roles I had applied for.

Nettle · 12-09-2013 7:05pm

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Well that is a joke as it's the type of thing that doesn't help team morale, was it the same role?

As for most males getting an interview, I worked in an unrelated social care sector for nearly a year and a half and had built up a pretty good CV (educated to masters level as well), but even then I didn't get one interview in 9 months for any youth work roles I had applied for.

Are you qualified to work in the area? They have professionalised the area now and it's in the process of registering the workers something similar to the way a nurse is registered so unless you have a social care qualification you won't be able to register

Handsome Bob · 12-09-2013 7:09pm

Nettle wrote: »

Are you qualified to work in the area? They have professionalised the area now and it's in the process of registering the workers something similar to the way a nurse is registered so unless you have a social care qualification you won't be able to register

I haven't any Youth Work qualification, my degree is in social science though.

Jimoslimos · 12-09-2013 7:15pm

Nettle wrote: »

They say that but I can say that the majority of males would be given an interview. I worked with a male who walked into the job from college and be paid more than me despite my experience and qualifications

I'd be more concerned as to why you had access to confidential information on your co-worker's salary.

Scruffles · 12-09-2013 7:40pm

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Well I'll give you an example; I know a woman who got a paid position in a youth residential setting without having any experience working with children previously.

A male would never have such an opportunity, and will most likely have to start as a volunteer in the sector if he wants to break into it. Not that there's anything wrong with volunteering, given I've done it myself.

You're right though, it is a sector crying out for males as is the case with the general social care sector.

the severe LD/autism residential centre am living in is split into kids/teens and adults,and all the male support staff in the kiddies wing were completely untrained when they joined the team,they will take on any one male and female if they have the right attitudes towards us and disability and the right personalities as they are given constant training anyway.

its another issue why men stay away from the caring field.

Handsome Bob · 12-09-2013 7:56pm

Scruffles wrote: »

the severe LD/autism residential centre am living in is split into kids/teens and adults,and all the male support staff in the kiddies wing were completely untrained when they joined the team,they will take on any one male and female if they have the right attitudes towards us and disability and the right personalities as they are given constant training anyway.

its another issue why men stay away from the caring field.

It's funny you mention enthusiasm; I was always amazed at how residents and clients would pick up on what they felt was a lack of enthusiasm or unhappiness based on one's demeanour.

Hannibal Smith · 12-09-2013 7:59pm

I wish some one had been a bit more hysterical and paranoid to look out for me when I was a kid. No one would have guessed or suspected the person who did it to me. In fact ive only ever told 4 people about it, never family because I doubt they'd believe me and would echo so many posts ive seen in this thread, my memory is all screwed up, but its not. I remember quite well.

At the time it was never a topic anyone spoke so I thought ibwas the only one. So I'm glad its being talked about now and if a little hysteria and paranoia catches even one fecker its all good.

Its not society or the media to blame...its the people who used their status in society, family, sports arenas etc to satisfy their sick and twisted persuasions.

mariaalice · 12-09-2013 8:22pm

But how do you quantify risk, I was driving down nutly land early one morning and I saw girl of about 9 in her uniform she has a loaf of bread in her hand and had obviously been sent to the Tesco in the merrion centre to get the bread and was walking home probably lived near by, I immediately though what terrible parents letting a child down to the shops on her own at that age, but then I began to think that's ridicules a 9 year old should be able to go to a near by shop by themselves, so it has become very had to quantify risk and that's the problem plus if anything happened to them you would never forgive yourself.

Nettle · 12-09-2013 8:51pm

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I'd be more concerned as to why you had access to confidential information on your co-worker's salary.

I don't think the person them selves telling me was in breach of anything

Nettle · 12-09-2013 8:54pm

Handsome Bob wrote: »

I haven't any Youth Work qualification, my degree is in social science though.

Yeah they are no longer accepting social science qualifications and for youth work they now want people with youth work qualifications, there was a time in the past when a social care qualification would have done but since the decision to professionalise the area they changed the list of qualifications. The used to accept people who had teaching degrees and psychology degrees but they don't anymore

Femme_Fatale · 12-09-2013 10:13pm

onerone wrote: »

As a man who enjoys the finer things in life I think its sick that I'm called a pervert or weirdo when the women have cute names like cougar or gerbil. sick of it!

"The finer things in life". Bit... vague.

spurious · 12-09-2013 10:14pm

mariaalice wrote: »

But how do you quantify risk, I was driving down nutly land early one morning and I saw girl of about 9 in her uniform she has a loaf of bread in her hand and had obviously been sent to the Tesco in the merrion centre to get the bread and was walking home probably lived near by, I immediately though what terrible parents letting a child down to the shops on her own at that age, but then I began to think that's ridicules a 9 year old should be able to go to a near by shop by themselves, so it has become very had to quantify risk and that's the problem plus if anything happened to them you would never forgive yourself.

But she's in far more danger (statistically) in her own home or at a family event.

Child Protection.....has society gone over the top in its desire to protect children?

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