RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

Tony wrote: »

You can but what slegs is saying is you lose the advantage of the programme guide and other features.

Fair enough, so the nine channels would be the same as a FTA box, but at least you'd have the epg for the freesat channels.

Macy0161 wrote: »

Fair enough, so the nine channels would be the same as a FTA box, but at least you'd have the epg for the freesat channels.

Yes if it pans out that way, it would most likely have to be a box with disecq switching for two lnbs or a dual band lnb depending on what orbital position is used.

ftakeith wrote: »

this thread should be moved or deleted

Would you show a small bit of respect to the posters who have spent time divulging and explaining the valuable (and accurate) information in this thread, by at least reading the damn thing before spouting rubbish?

Thanks , appreciate the clarification.

cgarvey wrote: »

Correct. The only mention to specific satellites was to mention Astra as a wideband satellite example (which they couldn't use, because of the bean width/coverage/rights issues). Ka was mentioned a few times, as was the "spot" and "beam" that would be "exclusive to Ireland". No satellite names, or when it would be launched. (The satellite I mean; SaorSat TV to be launched in Q2 2011).

STB wrote: »

http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/daily-satellite-broadcast-industry-news/164253-bunch-new-satellites.html

The new satellites, to be designated ASTRA 2E, ASTRA 2F, ASTRA 2G and ASTRA 5B, will allow the release of the existing satellites at two orbital positions (28.2 and 31.5 degrees East) and add new capacity as well as fleet deployment flexibility for the SES group over the coming years. The satellites are scheduled for launch in several steps between 2012 and 2014. The design life of each satellite is 15 years.

Don't fit 2011 time scale.
The only viable Ka Spot for Irish TV in 2011 I know off is a successful 13E kasat launch.

Possibly but I think if they use the right satellite (astra 2 would be my preference but seems unlikely ) and get a good one box solution it could actually kill DTT in the long term in my opinion.

gtg60 wrote: »

Just throwing this question out there but is this of any benefit to those of us who can receive Irish DTT anyway?

It's not like it's going to provide a one box solution with Irish and UK channels with one 7 day EPG.

My initial excitement has petered out when I realised there would be more expense and different equipment involved. So, really, IMHO this is only of benefit to those who cannot receive Irish DTT.

Tony wrote: »

Possibly but I think if they use the right satellite (astra 2 would be my preference but seems unlikely ) and get a good one box solution it could actually kill DTT in the long term in my opinion.

Oh, yes, agreed, if we could have got it on the same sat with equipment we already have then it'd have been a winner but alas...

Tony wrote: »

Thanks Watty, is there a launch date set for this?

I've asked some guys in the press to try find out what satellite they (RTE) have in mind (if they themselves know)

Launch date Q3 2010 originally for the most likely candidate.
Seems to have slipped
http://www.eutelsat.com/satellites/upcoming-launches.html

KA-SAT
Ordered by Eutelsat from EADS Astrium, KA-SAT is scheduled for launch between November 2010 and January 2011. Entirely innovative in design, the satellite will be configured with over 80 spotbeams, with a network of eight ground stations connecting to the Internet backbone.

The KA-SAT programme is to deliver efficient resources for the mass-market delivery of the Tooway™ consumer broadband service, targeted at users across Europe and the Mediterranean Basin located beyond range of ADSL networks. With a throughput of over 70 Gigabits per second, KA-SAT will be capable of serving over one million users who expect bandwidth and prices comparable to ADSL2 performance.

Eutelsat will also drive the development of satellite-based consumer broadband services with triple-play capability, by combining broadband services in the Ka-band, through KA-SAT, with the reception of TV channels in the Ku-band. In order to facilitate the availability of high-performance triple-play equipment at competitive prices, Eutelsat will deploy the KA-SAT satellite to 9° East. This deployment will simplify production of dual-feed antennas transmitting and receiving broadband services in the Ka-band from 9° East, and receiving television in the Ku-band from Eutelsat’s flagship HOT BIRD™ neighbourhood at 13° East.

Also some confusion if it's 9E or 13E
Originally discussed as 13E when I met Tooway guys 2 years ago. But now seems to be 9E.
Pluses: 9E is MUCH better elevation than 28.E Sky/Freesat. Less likely trees/roof block. Fitting on rear of roof overlooking house easier.
Minus: while a 9E/13E combo Ka/Ku is possible a 9E ka/ 28E Ku combo is very challanging (one Dish rule)

See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KA-SAT

This demo dish/feed may infact be 13E ku on front LNB and 9E ka on disk reflector/rear BUC+LNB
Dark rectangular box is power Amp for transmitter. 3 IF cables. Ku TV, Ka Internet Downlinkk + TV and Ka Internet uplink. Ka TV can only use one polarisation if Internet is installed.

The Ireland Spot on Kasat would only need maybe 40cm for TV Receive only. Internet works on staggeringly small 43cm compared to 95cm mostly needed now.

Let's all prepare to be let down by RTE (again)-that way we won't be disappointed.

Tony wrote: »

Yep 9e and 28 is a non runner in my opinion.

On a regular dish, yes. but gain needed for Kasat is so little that there is a simpler smaller solution than the wavefrontier dish.

Also I believe there is a smaller 65cm wavefrontier. The 90cm one not needed.

[EDIT: there is a 55cm Wavefrontier. That would work for ka 9E and sky/BBC ku 28.2E]

Hopefully something cheaper than a wave frontier will appear.

watty wrote: »

On a regular dish, yes. but gain needed for Kasat is so little that there is a simpler smaller solution than the wavefrontier dish.

Also I believe there is a smaller 65cm wavefrontier. The 90cm one not needed.

Deleted User wrote: »

So that makes it a bit simpler then watty?
A 2nd lnb on a sky dish?

Can it be done?

No, no & yes

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

good thread.... can anyone such as Tony clarify whether for someone like me with sky can I add a second lnb to get this "KA-SAT" or will it be just as cheap to put up an aerial and stick with fta bbc on sky box?( in not too technical terms please:))

If you can get DTT, that's simpler.

You can't add a 2nd 9E LNB (Ka or Ku) to a 28.2E Sky/FTA/Freesat dish. Too great an angle. 2nd 40cm+ dish simplest or a custom or Wavefrontier dish for both LNBs on one dish. You also need a Diseqc switch.

If you have more than one receiver or PVR then you need Quad LNBs and multiple Diseqc switch (max 2 x PVRs and 4x switches) or Quattro Ka & Ku LNBs and Multiswitch (2 to 8 PVRs, or 16 non PVR or any mix)


13E to 28E is possible on one 80cm dish. Not 9E ka, I don't think.

Yes it can be done on a 55cm Wavefrontier dish (2 x LNBs and Diseqc if one sat receiver. More "interesting" if you want multiple TVs, but up to a 1000+ TVs possible with Quattro LNBs and Multiswitch. Assuming someone makes a Quattro Ka band LNB).

It may be possible on something cheaper & smaller that qualifies as a single dish. If one dish rule is NOT enforced, a 40cm dish & ka LNB is REALLY small as a second dish.

The 55cm Wavefrontier would let you have 19E, 16E (football), 13E and 23.5E also as well as 28E and 9E.

Do note, that if it is Ka-Sat, it doesn't launch till year end 2010/early Jan 2011

We know:

• Ka Band (Thus 100% DVB-S2, i.e. HD boxes only, even for SD TV)
• Ireland spot beam
• €1.5M per annum (i.e. sat with lot of space as that's cheap for 9 Channels)
• Q2 2011 Service start

Sats are ordered years before launch and only military ones are secret. Both makers, Operators and launch operators boast for years in advance.

AFAIK none of the Ka in service have Irish Spot beam
The only two services likely by ANY date before 2012 is Avanti Hylas and Eutelsat kasat. (aka ka-sat and "Ka Sat" on searches).

For various reasons Hylas is unlikely and not likely to have a narrow enough spot. I'd also expect it to be cheaper


So that leaves Eutelsat's Kasat at 9E the only known candidate.
Details
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66914176&postcount=72
Beams

Not sure exactly which spot as it's hard to see outline of Ireland.

In fact when he said FTA and Spot Irish beam I knew it had to be a Future Ka band launch (mentioned at start of thread).

If he said "Ka Sat" that is official Eutelsat name. If he said Ka Band, that's generic?
Which did he say to the committee?

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.uk3w.com/torroidalcmp.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.uk3w.com/glassdish.htm&usg=__PY-wMJpIDEvmkbe1iLa4_-bML6s=&h=396&w=343&sz=15&hl=en&start=4&tbnid=C3EN_7hhEMmvJM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3D55cm%2Bwave%2Bfrontier%2Bsatellite%2Bdish%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1

something like the wavefront in this link?

except it's typically €60 to €90 not £90.
Comes in 55 and 90cm versions. The baby one (55) fine for 9E ka Sat and 28E Ku Freesat. 16E football needs the



http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/336124_-t-55-wavefrontier.html
http://www.ciao.de/Wavefrontier_Toroidal_T55__2302797

Well known German shop used by many on the forum €70
White
http://www.hm-sat-shop.de/antennen-wavefrontier/wave-toroidal-t55-p-weiss-.html
Charcoal
http://www.hm-sat-shop.de/antennen-wavefrontier/wave-toroidal-t55-p-anthrazit-.html

90cm version.


Toroidal 55

1. T55 has the same effectiveness of 55 cm (20 inches) dish for each LNBF installed.
2. T55 can accommodate up to 8 LNBFs.
3. T55 can cover up to 40 degrees in arc (60 degrees in azimuth)
28E - 9E is approx 20 Degrees

I think so.

But the sat guys I spoke with (actual vendors) claimed the 43cm dish takes into account rain fade.

Dish gain does go up with square of Frequency, so at Ka a dish has nearly 6dB more gain at same size, or another way, 43cm in clear sky on Ka is nearly the same as 80cm dish on Ku in clear sky for same EIRP, certainly much more than 75. In London the Freesat/Sky is fine on 45cm dish. Unlike Sky/Freesat, the intended Irish service area would be in "hotspot" of the Ka Irish Spot. This means if nothing else was better (and it probably is), then in Clear sky a 27cm would work. But the 40cm+ needed for rain margin.

It will be interesting after Kasat launch, if successful, just how small a dish works in clear sky! Possibly even 20cm, 8"!

The newer Ka Satellite with small spots must have very much higher gain dish.
The newer satellites are always higher power than older ones.

Time will tell what sort of Internet Speeds Tooway on KaSat does in Rain and how much rain before breakup on Ka Saorsat.

The transponders and spots have much more dynamic power management too.

[Edit: for Ka Only they have a 66cm for Tooway]

That's for Hotbird 6 at 13 deg east, which has one downlink spot and 4 uplink spots.
No Irish Spot.
see bottom of this page http://www.satsig.net/tooway/tooway-satellite.htm
The Internet component of Kasat will use a staggering EIGHT earth stations (Hubs).

Here is Better map

It's the yellow /lemon spot I 1st thought. The overlay on the earth Satellite image is poor

mike65 wrote: »

Pretty sure the blue spot below the orange one in the NW covers Ireland.

No. See edit on previous post.

South West of NI is covered
With a larger dish, more of NI and I.O.M. can get it.

With a 1m dish or larger, small parts of Cornwall, Devon Wales, maybe bits of Somerset. Rest of UK no chance due to combination of beam size and frequency reuse. The same freq spot is France to edge of Channel. So as you move to Devon, south east wales etc, a larger dish is no use as the signal is destroyed by French Spot.


Orange line at North East is estimate of 1m dish
Red line is around absolute limit. French spot reception too strong
Amazingly no matter HOW big your dish is, the French spot limits overspill to be similar to Terrestrial. The Exception is N.I. as they are far from any other spot of same frequency. It's likely that in Portrush/Larne a 43cm will work in clear sky and 95cm dish in rain.

A 90cm will be tricky to align on Ka (like 1.4m to 1.6m on Ku). For Wind loading and not loosing signal in gusts I would stick to a T55 (55cm Wavefrontier).

simonckenyon wrote: »

i was planning to get one. seems like there is more reason now to do so.

I guess there is if 9E is indeed the satellite as Watty as speculated.

My comment you quoted though was meant as a commercial judgement. I dont see mass market appeal viz a wave runner dish v small DTT aerial on cost and appearance grounds.

And the south western tip of Kerry is outside the initial coverage area, marginally I see - but still.

Really is this going to be cost effective? How much are the receivers going to be and the cost of installation of equipment. RTE have kept this so quiet, you'd have thought they had just dreamt it up in the last few weeks.

NOTHING on their website, in fact unless that new woman in charge of DSO gets her arse into gear fast, this is going to be a huge mess. Oh hang on, she isn't in post yet! D'oh!