Oireachtas Committee discuss DTT & Digital Sat

threads merged :-D

I had to go away to take care of abit of business when the RTÉ Networks guy started so I missed the interesting bit:-( What's the story with this satellite than will cost them €1.5 million a year? Is that the RTÉ International going ahead?

watty wrote: »

Hypothetical Ka Sat spot beam. Frequency re-use per spot means out of area other than the sort of spillover that terrestrial has is really hard.

It may not cover all of east coast/N.I. It means they save on about 30 to 40 low power DTT sites. The last 2% to 7% will never have terrestrial.

If it's the satellite I think (for Q2 2011 Saorsat), then it launches this Autumn 2010 for 13E slot. Ka Band DVB-s2 and very cheap DOCSIS Satellite Internet. 80 spot beams.

Saorsat thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=2055968485

Grand...just having a look there too. So Saorsat box then but only for some areas. So I guess they don't need a encryption etc.

I guess its cheaper for them than going down the route of national FTV card using someone like Sky then every landlord doesn't allow satellite dishes up if they opted not for DTT. But they have and that's it.

For those of you who missed bits: open real player if like me had problems viewing from site copy into the web tab of Real Player:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0714/newsspecial_av.html?2787365,null,230

from: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0714/dtt.html.

Summary: RTÉ1, 2 available to 98%, TG4 95%, TV3 85% on ATT. 1/3 of TV sets and 1/4 of households in Ireland rely on ATT. 50% reception reliance particularly 1/3 population in West of Ireland. Excludes hotels, holiday homes in sources.

1 million people will suffer around 2012 in coverage due to ASO without DTT.
RTÉ DTT & 1st time for RTÉ FTA Satellite. Offering near 100% FTA PSB, and national backup in event of catastrophic failure with DTT. Can offer broadband services with satellite.

RTÉ NL-> 2 DTT FTA multiplexes, coverage of 1st Mux from October 31 2010

28 sites, DTT installed, 94% coverage on October 31st, greater than (90%= statutory requirement) current TV3 level of analogue coverage 85%

49 sites 97.2% (=Analogue TG4) with DTT by Q2 2011.

Q4 2011- Q3 2012, by Q4 2012 will reach 98% DTT= ATT

Q3 2013 for 2nd Mux, power restrictions due to how S Ireland interfaces with N.Ireland and S. Ireland interfaces with Wales.

Saorsat:
Wideband satellite-resources to purchase rights into 100 million people, isn't option for RTÉ. Currently ATT not capable of 100%. Wind turbines affect, large buildings affects coverage, RTÉ takes into account, has improved from 80% mark from 20 years ago.

RTÉ Board has recently approved SaorSat from RTÉ NL, available hopefully Q2 2011, new technology similar to UHF, VHF, that allows unencrypted allows unencrypted. Tentative, minister decision on Saorsat, RTÉ1,2 HD lite eg GAA Championship 2011, no infrastructure beyond that in studios only available on DTT proposal.

TV3 entitled to be there at Minister's discretion, RTÉ News Now is intended for DTT, Euronews overnight with RTÉ Children's, advert free periods during the day swap to RTÉ+1.

TV3 have 3e 65% via cable, and RTÉ have invited their carriage onto DTT, Saorsat, can apply to Minister to be carred on this, RTÉ Digital Teletext and RTÉ 12 digital radio channels. 9 TV channels, 12 radio on 1st PSB Mux proposed. RTÉ's proposal been forwarded to Minister.
Complex issues for ComReg, BAI associated with ASO to deal with RTÉ to overcome.

Summary of RTÉ CFO,

E.& O.E.

Bob Collins, Couldn't close OneVision under legislation, no docking mechanism between BAI and RTÉ NL, regretable, attempted to use mediation process not agreeable to all parties. BAI withdrew offer from OneVision and invited EasyTV who didn't want to take up the offer. So BAI completed its statutory obligations.

It will be in continuing contact regarding Commercial DTT with interested parties and the Minister.

BAI Bob Collins Summary

BAI priorities:
1)Security of DTT transmission for Domestic channels
2)Security of access for domestic channels and those that may develop
3)minimum, no diminution is services currently available

2 other issues of interest to BAI
a) cost of transmission in simulcast phase (Oct 2010-Q4 2012), TV3 & TG4 different position to RTÉ given not part of RTÉ NL
b)access of households to DTT

Priority- transition to DTT. European requirement BAI shares that view.
Shares view that in interest of securing most effective range of services, protecting competitive provision of services and new providers of services, that capacity of Commercial DTT be retained including bandwidth and that such decisions for PSB Mux not operate to enduring disadvantage in terms of delays or extra cost of provision at some stage of commercial DTT multiplexes. Matter of public policy.

2012 transition a challenge to variety of interests, crisp decision making required, interests and choice, returning to competitive process be constantly available without affecting PSB DTT, no point in returning to process where interest not currently there for commercial DTT.

In context of changing pattern of transmission arrangements needs to consider impact on operation of current tarriff model based on different set of circumstances, if it is desireable,

PSB Muxes context, that opportunity grasped if appropriate to allow for diversity of service providers, BAI would consider further, discussion, dept, authority, RTé, RTÉ NL, ComReg for another day discussions.

Whatever decision taken, need to be not to make difficult a diverse provision of services so existing services not become disadvantaged, nor households or new competitive offerings, ranges of choices not be affected.

Liz Summary
DTT opportunities, EU imperative.
Learning lesson on docking mechanism issue BAI-RTÉ NL-Lesson?

Reports there that Sky takes 500 million from ROI, Bob set out costs and criteria. Are BAI saying RTÉ proposals has full support or any concerns on same?

Conor Hayes RTÉ proposing satellite option, new factor, consider point, cost to TV3 & TG4 simulcast cost?

Satellite provision clarification, backup? also to do with reaching the 7% that DTT can't reach, similar to broadband difficulty.

Need to know cost of a box? How many viewers on Freesat, whether suitable, estimate of takeup?
Simple question, no clear sense of project, who do people call on DTT. Is a project, not clear who is running it, no-one being criticised, will affect possibly 1 million people, in a way people have confidence in it.

Digital radio terms, has not caught on, even though infrastructure is elaborate, not fully used because creates overspill, so parts of country where digital radio doesn't apply

Choice of channels, efforts made to make attractive, 2 mentioned in legislation, Oireachtas channel attractive but in terms of viewership not perhaps justifiable.

Mount Leinster issue, houses within Welsh areas on Channel 45 not been able to be received. Kind of issue needs clear line of command so where people have queries, can be directed in way can trust processs.

Deputy Coonan summary
welcomes....thanks, was told 40 channels at fanfare now 9 channels, accident of history that we don't have Boxer, Easy TV or OneVision, is it disaster how switchover handled. Seems strange. Almost panic situation? Is it accident of history, areas not able to reach

Deputy D'Arcy
Ancillary service in relation to broadband, are those figures factored into October 2010, once-off opportunity taken to provide broadband, 50% of analogue area, opportunity to provide broadband. If is cost, have to be met, once off, as important as motorways, railtracks, Terminal 2. Dissatisfaction from Mr. Collins, with PSB's, commercial companies, no dock not even docking mechanism.

What contact have BAI had with aerial installers? He spoke with guy who puts up aerials for long time, he knows more about this that rocket science, blackout of info from BAI, RTÉ, OneVision, Boxer, and if BAI not been up-to acceptable level of communication

Deputy Devins
welcomes...not into technology, stopping ATT replaced by DTT and Satellite, satellite advantage not covered by DTT. Why not use satellite for 100% instead of going down DTT route.

General public interested in cost, so cost to them? New sets? New boxes, license fee increase?
Mr. Hayes raised if covered 100 million viewers than to Ireland why extra costs.

Outlined difficulties relating to commercial operators with BAI or RTÉ in provision, what's the relationship between RTÉ and BAI, and to RTÉ impact of obligation of DTT on organistion now none of commercial operators are intent on taking up piece of the cake. Great expense gone in by RTÉ.

Mr. Collins docking mechanism not in legislation, how does Mr.Collins see in solution, what organisition or who does he see in resolving it.

Conor Hayes-> Deputy McManus, DTT envisaged since 2005, 6 mux integrated Pay TV and PSB Muxes. (explains mux=combine streams packs more capacity into it like canoe and ship)
Spectrum international convention, ITU Dept lead co-ordination, designed around core 13 sites, ancillary go on top of that. Not just envisaging replicating same system but better system 6 muxes forseen, didn't make sense for country to build new networks around place, instead use what have.

If had funding RTÉ would construct something much better with wider capacity. RTÉ1, 2 TV3, TG4 could have been replaced by 40, 45 SD channels and further 2 muxes for DVB-H alot of spectrum, If used for television 60-70 channels. Being used for other purposes offer across to people. Proposal in 2005 RTE would do whole people €150 million then contract off to other people. In 2007 wasn't allowed obligation to rollout PSB and BAI, they likened 1 lane of motorway and 3 to BAI always difficult.

Prior to competition of BAI, €120 million, RTE doesn't have that sitting around, so borrowing, procurement sqeezed cost to €111 million, developed tarrif model, others would have to be charged, could be regulated, RTÉ would charge itself, got regulatory experts form UK mainly. Provided to BAI in advance of cost, ComReg and any BAI participants in competition.

Process didn't work, a year ago, going to be delays, spending alot up to June 2010, €40 million, delayed and reorganised to provide time for successful applicant, deadline for RTE to meet ASO in 2012 in June had to make decisions, and quickly came up with 2 PSB Mux DTT proposal and developing satellite option, is answer for 2% and 2nd justification if 98% collapses because of catasrophic reason, he propsed in 2002 didn't find favour and technology not available. Would require 1.6 million, 20% only need indoor aerial, cheaper that satellite for people.

2% will require satellite. They can offer for 1st time. Economic issue arises for RTÉ. €1.5 million a year, if other channels come on board, will partially defray that cost, to be able to supply to 2% cost can be adequately justified. Appropriate amount.

Liz: emergency if people haven't satellite dish...Conor Hayes...could have catastrophic event. Never had a backup for 40 years now will.

Is DTT as good as Satellite? he found (Conor Hayes) quality of RTÉ DTT picture better than Satellite BBC HD.

€70 million for 2 PSB's versus €111 million (75 million borrowing) for 6Muxes includes €40 million spent. Difficulty commercial operators had to understand RTÉ spend €40 million. DTT can't provide internet. Others offer satellite over broadband, does can offer VOIP, can give broadband, telephony and TV.

ASO 31 December 2012. Minister hasn't made decision on RTÉ proposal for Film Channel, IFB hasn't proposals ready. Conor Hayes doesn't forsee IFC ready by October 31st, on Oireachtas Channel, RTE wrote to clerk of Dáil, who pays for it. These 2 could be on 2nd Mux. Putting more into web based project and bringing across Oireachtas TV to it.

Set top boxes, if want to use DTT have to have IDTV or set top box. Work with BAI, Comreg and RTÉ with getting than cost of boxes.

Switchon of techical 2010 october. National launch Q2 2011 recommended by RTÉ to Minister.

Some people no cost, 22% rely on ATT, 78% don't 1/3 of TVs, most people will need to get stb approx €100, Italy can get them for €20, organised compaign, BAI, comreg, Dept.

10,000, households that have VHF aerials that have to be replaced, ones in UHF band that can be
Currently designing videos to install aerials correctly and public info campaign.

He wouldn't consider going to Italy for the €20 boxes as is MPEG2

Satellite option of RTÉ Ka instead of Ku band, Ka is used for telcoms, DirectTV uses in USA for broadband.

Liz has issue that no one person to contact for DTT. Up to May was 6 muxes, now 2 muxes. Formal structures in matter of months. RTÉ NL or BAI would answer because in pre-planning phase. 4 agencies wouldn't be fair to expect it to be in place now but should be in place shortly.

What channel will be available will UK Channels be available.
Freesat, BBC, ITV in clear over Ireland on wideband satellite in Ku band
RTÉ Sat option in Ka band not gettable on same satellite, in USA, hybrid dishes available for Ku and Ka is techically feasible, $65 dollars for 45 million in USA. Sky will provide all for fee, alternative available. If you have freesat can get RTÉ and ITV, not planned but if was pay TV would be available on commercial basis, but now not available.

Bob Collins:

to Deputy McManus, for 14 years clear sense of priority, allows wider range, is more modern, delivers a digital dividend that can give space to other purposes. Opportunities available, not 1st time that this state has engaged in change in transmission mode, move from MW to VHF, from 405-605 change to VHF to UHF new aerials, DTT is more radical, is a narrower focus, only those dependent on it is too early to engage with public, has to happen soon, will have to be one-stop shop. Issue of responsibility.

Docking mechanism-> future-> BAI competition for Commercial Muxes, had formal relationship statutorily with entity boxer or whoever, entity was dealing with RTÉ NL but BAI has not linkage formally with RTÉ NL so the BAI had no entitlement to come and engage or right to engage with 2 parties to reach a conclusion, RTÉ was open, but desireable if someone or BAI could engage with both parties in transmission contract, weakness and would be strength if was available. No sanction.

RTÉ plan has support in principle of BAI, RTÉ in difficult position to abide by SI regarding the PSB muxes, the identification of narrowband satellite service in ingenious way to deal with it. State should have Irish owned transmission system not dependent on external force ie domestic system. Satellite does all that and provide backup but can't dispense with DTT by virtue of satellite as not within control of state.

BAI issue is dramatic change of configuration of transmission arrangments now for DTT relative to those earlier alter substantially DTT context of emergence or how Commercial DTT can be brought into existence. Impact on future tariff model, no issue with that tarrif model though some of the entities weren't fully aware. Accident of history not commercial entities couldn't develop the system, the award of contract in 2008 coincided with economic downturn, signficiantly altered the (projections of commercial DTT) inability of applicants to be successful with transmission contracts not BAI reponsibility, its impatience, RTÉ didn't wish to develop the 3 mux contract.

ASO transition, challenge for RTÉ to secure within timescale. In absence of 3 muxes until they are developed. If there is unlikely to commercial DTT, no applicant in 2001. 3 serious consortia qualified in 2008, serious in intent. Issue for cost of TV3, TG4 compared with RTÉ's 2 is in simultaneous transmission test until ASO when info compaign proceeding, cost but no additional viewers, cost of access covered as has broadband in answers. Contact for one-stop shop though not BAI's role.

Commercial operators and RTÉ to Chairman of Committee, good relationship between BAI and RTÉ changing as BAI now regulates RTÉ and TG4.

Bob Collins discussed with committee why the paired down of RTÉ, BAI are going back to 3 consortia to see what can be done to bring them back in.

6 muxes proposed in 2005, RTÉ proposed DTT would put it together then dispose of it, people decided they didn't want to go that way.

Mr. O'Brien have discussed with CEDA, how TVs will work, RTÉ NL, dept and BAI, RTÉ NL have relationship with 450 installers. When sites have been decided, project plan, then correct time to advise them. Certainty in relation to sites then can advise industry when plan is signed off and project plan agreed. Awaits Minister's decision to approve or amend the proposal. Then when that decided can proceed with transmission site plans and installer info.

What affect will it have on TV license? Increase it enoromously says Conor Hayes (meant as joke).

(Whoo, thank god can touch type..have typos but too tired now to correct, back to the bookkeeping)

Deleted User wrote: »

@ Scath

Did Liz Mcmanus mention the ch 45 mount Leinster issue and was there any response? I see you have it in her summary of what was said above.

Yip she did mention it. He didn't appear to answer it from my listening, maybe worth a listen again. You know when they ask they ask afew questions at a time. He kinda skirted on the issue about S.Ireland interface versus both NI and Wales but didn't deal with that directly. She was talking about line of command to deal with that. She didn't ask specifically what the RTÉ Nl position was on that as far as I could tell. I would guess that is one she'll have to write to RTÉ NL about and report back their response.
But their solution to the issue may be Saorsat Ka band for those affected I suspect and ITU may allow them to use that even though interference, perhaps they might reduce the power to mitigate that problem or move channel which they I imagine could do now Commercial DTT at moment not consideration, depending on Minister's decision on the 2 mux proposal...

Yea, I think RTÉ Nl come out of it well and add my congrats to them. They seemed to propose good solutions, but the Dept of Comm's and its forerunners seem to come out of this poorly and then legislaion lacking situation regarding RTÉ NL versus BAI linkage...

I think despite that Minister Ryan seems to be doing the best on the issue, being decisive. I think problem is RTE NL constantly proposals not taken on board back in 1999 and again 2005. Why is that happening? Why aren't they trusted and accepted like BBC are in the main. Like they are a public organisation with the national interest at heart. So why this lack of acceptance of their costed proposals by those who seem to have less expertise?