Wind farm for the Midlands

Old diesel · 11-10-2013 11:05pm

Cliste wrote: »

While the location seems good, and low impact on people, I think the key issue is that there is a limit on how many ports, and how much space in each port for the turbines, it takes a while for 4,600 homes of energy to reach the amounts that are planned/required by future wind devlopments..

Fair points - but my thinking on this is that its not just about ports - you could have wind turbines in an area near an airport - if (and its a big if) you can avoid interfering with flight safety).

Also you can have them in areas where you have factories or other activities going on like that - so business parks/industrial estates that kind of thing.

Also you could put them near cities on land on the outskirts - or even put odd ones in places like for example Dundalk Institute of technology which has a wind turbine.

Also local communities all over Ireland could as the technology develops have small scale developments of turbines on their own.

That means communities decide they want to consider doing their homework on having turbines - they decide where they want to put them - and indeed make the decision on having them at all.

And they get the benefits of it.

Kind of different to what we are looking at for the Midlands - where Pat Rabbite seems to consider the Midlands as a dumping ground for big turbines.

Btw - I put up two posts with links - the 2nd one had a wind turbine powering a factory making (ironically) solar panels.

Think that turbine was claimed to have the capacity to power 1600 homes.

And id also like to make the point that other options for renewables need to be kept on the agenda.

I suppose what id really like is for rural communities to be able to plan what they the community wish to do in terms of having sustainable communities for the future - rather than having the government foist things on them that the community don't want.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-10-2013 11:16pm

so in the greater Dublin area there are ports in Howth, Dublin, Dun Laoghaire and Bray , and 4,600 homes times a hundred not to mention the commercial users

Grudaire · 12-10-2013 9:52am

Old diesel wrote: »

I suppose what id really like is for rural communities to be able to plan what they the community wish to do in terms of having sustainable communities for the future - rather than having the government foist things on them that the community don't want.

This thing that the 'community' should get to decide really annoys me. It goes against a few things that generally are held in high regard.

1 we Irish are a community, laws are made by elected politicians. Community is on a national level.
2 sometimes we all put up with stuff for the good of the greater community. I work beside a methadone clinic, hardly something a community would agree to having, but definitely something necessary
3 the rights of people to use their land as they wish to make money for themselves, I haven't heard of any compulsory purchase orders, this is land owners choosing to have turbines on their land.

I do agree to limits on all of it, reasonable distances etc. but don't make out that some evil entity 'the government' are doing something outrageous and ridiculous on the community.

robp · 12-10-2013 10:34am

Cliste wrote: »

This thing that the 'community' should get to decide really annoys me. It goes against a few things that generally are held in high regard.

1 we Irish are a community, laws are made by elected politicians. Community is on a national level.
2 sometimes we all put up with stuff for the good of the greater community. I work beside a methadone clinic, hardly something a community would agree to having, but definitely something necessary
3 the rights of people to use their land as they wish to make money for themselves, I haven't heard of any compulsory purchase orders, this is land owners choosing to have turbines on their land.

I do agree to limits on all of it, reasonable distances etc. but don't make out that some evil entity 'the government' are doing something outrageous and ridiculous on the community.

This right doesn't really exist without huge limitations. The absence of reasonable community objections is mandatory through the planning process. This is only right and proper.

Putting up with stuff for the good of the greater community is all well and good but if some of the projects planning on plastering the Midlands with bird killers are only creating 2-3,000 jobs such as greenwire the advantages are so limited I would question whose benefit is it really.

Macha · 12-10-2013 11:01am

robp wrote: »

This right doesn't really exist without huge limitations. The absence of reasonable community objections is mandatory through the planning process. This is only right and proper.

Putting up with stuff for the good of the greater community is all well and good but if some of the projects planning on plastering the Midlands with bird killers are only creating 2-3,000 jobs such as greenwire. With pluses so limited I would question whose benefit is it really.

[mod]Drop the hyperbole language please. We're after reasoned debate, not spurious scaremongering. [/mod]

Old diesel · 12-10-2013 11:06am

Cliste wrote: »

This thing that the 'community' should get to decide really annoys me. It goes against a few things that generally are held in high regard.

1 we Irish are a community, laws are made by elected politicians. Community is on a national level.
2 sometimes we all put up with stuff for the good of the greater community. I work beside a methadone clinic, hardly something a community would agree to having, but definitely something necessary
3 the rights of people to use their land as they wish to make money for themselves, I haven't heard of any compulsory purchase orders, this is land owners choosing to have turbines on their land.

I do agree to limits on all of it, reasonable distances etc. but don't make out that some evil entity 'the government' are doing something outrageous and ridiculous on the community.

All very good points - but what im merely talking about is a community trying to plan their own future.

What im saying is that a lot of people in communities don't want whats being proposed for the midlands in terms of wind turbines.

Way I see it is either wind turbines don't cause genuine issues - in which case - theres no problem putting them near towns and cities where most of the power is needed. Or they do - in which case communities should have the right to have more say in having them (or not having them)

My concern is trying to keep viable vibrant thriving communities going in rural Ireland - that's not really going to happen if someone in Dublin decides that rural Ireland is no good - and thus its okay for rural Ireland to take the hit for the "common good" when the cities, towns and even other countries (the Uk in this case since that's where its intended the power may be exported to - get all the benefits - while rural Ireland gets the disadvantage - ie they have to live with the wind turbines next door etc - but little of the benefits. Afterall - Rural Ireland may get some swimming pools and the local ICA may get a few quid for days out etc as "compensation" but all the income could end up going out of the community.

The guy who owns the land doesn't have to live in the area - the turbines won't require his presence. So its not like real jobs will be created as compensation - all the wind turbines will come in from abroad etc - and jobs during construction are only temporary. Maintenance of the wind turbines will be via the manufacturer or wind turbine developer - both of whom already probably have staff for the job already.

What I would say is - im not againsed wind turbines per se - I don't mind having a certain amount of them - I just want more better thinking on where to put them, what the impact is - I mean the reality now - not the extreme views on both sides of the wind debate.

And yes im happy to put up with stuff for the betterment of the whole country - but would like to see a community being able to drive itself forward.

I would like to see communities thrive all over Ireland both urban and rural - but feel that this would more likely happen if communities have more input into the daily decisions that impact on them.

Put in place viable plans to drive communities forward - in terms of quality of life, job creation, develop local economies etc - that's the sort of thing I would like to see.

That would be better for the "common good" - but it needs communities to be able to make decisions for themselves - and not have things imposed on them.

As for elected representatives - that doesn't really work very well does it - the government has the majority - and all the TDs must vote in line with the government on legislation etc.

Also - I see local communities being able to make decisions for themselves and drive themselves forward and decide the best way forward for themselves on all issues from the future of the local school, to job creation, to improving farmings business model, right up to wind turbines - as being the only way rural Ireland will actually survive in terms of being somewhere where people will live.

Hope you don't see this as having a go at you personally - and I thank you for your points/opinions etc.

Again im not anti wind turbines - if the Danish model mentioned somewhere in this thread was followed - then id be far happier to embrace wind power in rural areas - as the rural area then actually benefits from owning wind turbines and the extra income that comes with it.

Macha · 12-10-2013 1:02pm

robp wrote: »

Hyperbole? Two white tailed eagles have already been killed by Irish turbines even though 1) their population is tiny, 2) the number of turbines is currently far less then what is anticipated, 3) many lost birds are never recovered. Yes the land area involved in turbine construction is very small but their height and size renders impact far larger then the land actually built over so the word 'plastering' conveys this quite honestly.

[mod]*sigh* for the gazillionth time, no in-thread discussion of moderation. Post deleted. [/mod]

robp · 12-10-2013 1:20pm

Two white tailed eagles have already been killed by Irish turbines even though 1) their population is tiny, 2) the number of turbines is currently far less then what is anticipated, 3) many if not most lost birds are never recovered so causes of death are never known.

As wind power is scaled up we are going to see far difficult conservation issues arising. The bird killing reality is just one example. We are already seeing an erosion of this green image of windpower. The industrialisation of Irish wildlands won't come with out a cost.

Old diesel · 12-10-2013 5:05pm

Okay this article highlights the potential issue of noise - but doesn't address infranoise (I think it refers to what can be heard at the ear).

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2011/02/looking-for-wind-industry-leadership-in-reducing-noise-impacts

But heres the question - what do we think of the noise and infranoise issues - how big are they in reality - they are big issues for anti wind people - while the pro wind crowd reckon they are exaggerated or non existant.

And how can the noise and infranoise be tackled in a way that allows communities to continue to live very happily even with wind farms nearby.

Also someone mentioned earlier about the need to do things "for the common good".

So if rural communities have to have wind turbines in the interests of "protecting the environment - and reducing dependence on fossil fuels.

How much sacrifice should rural communities be expected to make - would it be acceptable for example to buy out land in rural areas and move people out of there so more wind turbines can go in :rolleyes:.

Or is it okay for rural communities "to be compensated" and move out due to wind turbines.

Would there be something in the possibility of building newer houses in villages and towns - and moving people who are outside the villages to the villages (extending the villages size - if that meant freeing up land for wind power - and keeping rural communities going.

Not saying any of that is good - I personally would object to the idea of moving people out of rural Ireland just to make room for wind turbines.

Just throwing it all out for debates and views

Greensleeves · 12-10-2013 5:13pm

Frank McDonald has a piece in the Irish Times today about revised guidelines for wind farm developments. Regardless of personal feelings about the midlands wind farms they have opened up debate at a national level about wind energy which can only be a good thing.

Development of wind energy needs ‘new approach’

Some wind energy developers are “behaving like an oil baron of old” in dismissing concerns of communities about the potentially negative impact of their schemes, according to Minister of State for Planning Jan O’Sullivan.

Addressing a conference on renewable energy in Dublin yesterday she said revised planning guidelines on wind farm developments would be published by the end of November and go to public consultation for “six to eight weeks”.

She also told the conference, organised by the Irish Planning Institute (IPI), that the new guidelines would take into account the “evolution of wind turbine technologies” since 2006 as well as research on noise issues and international practice.

Echoing criticism by Minister for Energy Pat Rabbitte, Ms O’Sullivan stressed the need for wind energy developers to engage with local communities. “Too often I have seen industry voices talking down to people and dismissing concerns out of hand,” said Ms O’Sullivan. “Engagement and consultation with local communities must be at the heart of the development process.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/development-of-wind-energy-needs-new-approach-1.1558014#.Ulj33Bt_c00.twitter

Old diesel · 12-10-2013 5:26pm

Greensleeves wrote: »

Frank McDonald has a piece in the Irish Times today about revised guidelines for wind farm developments. Regardless of personal feelings about the midlands wind farms they have opened up debate at a national level about wind energy which can only be a good thing.

Development of wind energy needs ‘new approach’

Some wind energy developers are “behaving like an oil baron of old” in dismissing concerns of communities about the potentially negative impact of their schemes, according to Minister of State for Planning Jan O’Sullivan.

Addressing a conference on renewable energy in Dublin yesterday she said revised planning guidelines on wind farm developments would be published by the end of November and go to public consultation for “six to eight weeks”.

She also told the conference, organised by the Irish Planning Institute (IPI), that the new guidelines would take into account the “evolution of wind turbine technologies” since 2006 as well as research on noise issues and international practice.

Echoing criticism by Minister for Energy Pat Rabbitte, Ms O’Sullivan stressed the need for wind energy developers to engage with local communities. “Too often I have seen industry voices talking down to people and dismissing concerns out of hand,” said Ms O’Sullivan. “Engagement and consultation with local communities must be at the heart of the development process.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/development-of-wind-energy-needs-new-approach-1.1558014#.Ulj33Bt_c00.twitter

Well they are saying lots of "nice to hear things" - we shall have to await the reality of how they will play the game over the coming months and years.

What communities need is to know that they won't be shafted - that they will still be able to have a decent quality of life when the wind turbines are up and running.

And to have the reassurance of knowing that if there are issues with wind turbines - they will be looked after.

I would also put forward the idea - that we should be looking at whats being done in the past - what other countries have done - what mistakes have been learnt and what can be done to address them.

For example the couple up in Roscommon who had to move out because they couldn't handle the noise - assuming those turbines are still running - that cottage should be used as a base for independent research into the noise and - infranoise from those turbines - to establish the problem - and then work out how prevent that issue in future wind developments.

Sound the way forward to me - and I also think we need to see the wind turbine manufacturers and industry working to reduce noise and infranoise in the way that other industries have had to address things like noise and exhaust emissions due to legislation driving the thing forward.

Think the EU needs to get involved with the latter aspect - I think.

Greensleeves · 12-10-2013 5:49pm

Old diesel wrote: »

I would also put forward the idea - that we should be looking at whats being done in the past - what other countries have done - what mistakes have been learnt and what can be done to address them.

For example the couple up in Roscommon who had to move out because they couldn't handle the noise - assuming those turbines are still running - that cottage should be used as a base for independent research into the noise and - infranoise from those turbines - to establish the problem - and then work out how prevent that issue in future wind developments.

One of the main problems is the difficulty in getting reliable independent information. I don't much care for the anti-wind turbine websites with the cherry-picked stories. I was looking at this American website about noise from wind turbines which claims to be impartial and which examines the situation in several countries. It would be good if the Dept. of the Environment or the EU or some trustworthy independent body did reports like The Wind Farm Noise reports that this website is doing.

http://www.acousticecology.org/srwind.html

Old diesel · 12-10-2013 9:38pm

Greensleeves wrote: »

One of the main problems is the difficulty in getting reliable independent information. I don't much care for the anti-wind turbine websites with the cherry-picked stories. I was looking at this American website about noise from wind turbines which claims to be impartial and which examines the situation in several countries. It would be good if the Dept. of the Environment or the EU or some trustworthy independent body did reports like The Wind Farm Noise reports that this website is doing.

http://www.acousticecology.org/srwind.html

Agreed - hence the need to look at real experiences of whats being done to date.

Noise tests by someone genuinely independent would be a very good start - a number of things to be looked at - firstly how noise varies according to distance - also how it varies according to the number of turbines is a wind farm.

Also one thing that definitely needs more investigation is seeing low frequency noise/infranoise is measured and the impact of it on people.

Denmark seems to have lots of these turbines - so its clearly worth looking at what they have done and are doing.

And its worth seeing what the f:mad::mad:k is going on in the UK - seeing as the reasons this is being proposed is because the Uk communities don't want them anymore. Need to get to the bottom of if there is actual genuine good reason for that on their part - or is it just Nimbyism.

Still very doubtful on the benefits of this for Ireland - I do wonder if this is something a lazy govt has in mind instead of putting in place policy to create real jobs in the midlands in more viable/better (from a jobs viewpoint) industries.

MayoSalmon · 24-11-2013 6:03pm

On-shore wind farms should not exist in Ireland.

Our natural resource is Tourism..simple as.

The landscape should be kept clean and free from turbines, pylons etc

Old diesel · 24-11-2013 7:29pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

On-shore wind farms should not exist in Ireland.

Our natural resource is Tourism..simple as.

The landscape should be kept clean and free from turbines, pylons etc

Definitely in terms of pylons - we do need to factor the tourism aspect into the decision making process.

And in terms of Wind turbines - we definitely need to ensure that there net benefits coming back to communities that get them.

The direct jobs from wind energy aren't going to make the grade - but where the potential benefits of uprading the electricity network (im not advocating pylons here at all) would be if you could get industry going in rural areas.

Can't have a situation where rural Ireland takes all these Pylons - and gets no new industry in return - especially if damage is done to tourism etc.

Debate needs to move on from the wind energy jobs - as those are far too low in numbers (imo) to even merit consideration - to discussion on how many jobs you could support with new industry in rural areas - if electricity supply was upgraded - and again - I don't mean pylons - I mean increasing capacity in the system where it needs to be done.

The potential impact on tourism and our green image in the food sector - would be of much more concern then the health issues - although I do feel that we do need to get to the bottom of these alleged issues - and deal with the facts - because dealing with the facts should be in everyones benefit - govt and all communities affected.

I think it would be far better regardless of what final decisions are made following planning etc - for the Government, Eirgrid and the wind developers to engage much better with communities.

Their attitude so far has been very poor - and needs to improve drastically.

Need better planning in terms of how we drive rural Ireland forward - and try to see it as being more then just a place where you can throw in lots of pylons and wind turbines and that's it.

Apologies for the rant

Capt'n Midnight · 24-11-2013 7:30pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

On-shore wind farms should not exist in Ireland.

Our natural resource is Tourism..simple as.

The landscape should be kept clean and free from turbines, pylons etc

Yeah, let's bulldoze the cottages, rip up the roads , replace all the conifers and farms with deciduous forests...

The tourist argument doesn't really work since most tourists are used to pylons and such back home anyway.

Old diesel · 24-11-2013 7:38pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Yeah, let's bulldoze the cottages, rip up the roads , replace all the conifers and farms with deciduous forests...

The tourist argument doesn't really work since most tourists are used to pylons and such back home anyway.

True - but if you've got beautiful scenery - and that's helping bring in visitors - then its sensible to look at what the real impact on tourism would be if you put in things (like pylons) that interfere with the nice countryside.

You could make the argument the other way - that if they have pylons back home - they are hardly going to want to come over to Ireland to look at more.

In saying that however - if you could offset a reduction in tourism - if it was to happen - with new replacement jobs from new industries in rural Ireland that improvements in electricity supply make possible - then by all means - lets look at it and go for it.

If new industries were to come into places like Mayo, Longford, Carlow, Waterford etc and rural areas were to benefit from them - that makes pylonds and wind turbines a better sell - if said pylons and turbines were what was making these jobs possible.

Ive said this elsewhere (twitter) but maybe the angle of approach for Ireland to take - is to set the standard - and be the leader in delivering electricity supply solutions that work but also - that miminise the impact on communities - lets be the leader in that.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-11-2013 7:47pm

We've put plenty of large pylons over the years starting with the Shannon scheme. If they were a tourist issue Bord Failte would have noticed by now.

Old diesel · 24-11-2013 8:01pm

Old diesel wrote: »

True - but if you've got beautiful scenery - and that's helping bring in visitors - then its sensible to look at what the real impact on tourism would be if you put in things (like pylons) that interfere with the nice countryside.

You could make the argument the other way - that if they have pylons back home - they are hardly going to want to come over to Ireland to look at more.

In saying that however - if you could offset a reduction in tourism - if it was to happen - with new replacement jobs from new industries in rural Ireland that improvements in electricity supply make possible - then by all means - lets look at it and go for it.

If new industries were to come into places like Mayo, Longford, Carlow, Waterford etc and rural areas were to benefit from them - that makes pylonds and wind turbines a better sell - if said pylons and turbines were what was making these jobs possible.

Ive said this elsewhere (twitter) but maybe the angle of approach for Ireland to take - is to set the standard - and be the leader in delivering electricity supply solutions that work but also - that miminise the impact on communities - lets be the leader in that.

Feel free to look at the above post again - i have already mentioned that if new industry was to come in to rural ares to offset any jobs that might be lost - then lets look at it and go for it.

i have also suggested about adopting the approach of being the leader in terms of electricity supply solutions that work but deliver lower impact to communities. I mean why not - given the nature of our country - lets turn the challenges the nature of our country presents to us - into opportunities to be world leaders in this field.

If tourism doesn't get a negative impact due to pylons and wind turbines - then great -

. My concern though is that these go in - and its Dublin that will get the benefit - since at the moment a lot of the focus in terms of jobs and industry coming in - is focused on that area.

If pylons and turbines can help rural communities in terms of new jobs coming in and help these communities survive - then im perfectly happy - very happy in fact - to have them been put up.

My big concern in all this is that i want to keep rural communities like the one i live in going as well as they can.

What id like thus is the solution that is best for communities in rural Ireland for the long term - this may involve pylons and turbines - or it may not - once the best possible way forward is put in place to keep rural communities going - im happy

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

We've put plenty of large pylons over the years starting with the Shannon scheme. If they were a tourist issue Bord Failte would have noticed by now.

MayoSalmon · 24-11-2013 8:29pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

We've put plenty of large pylons over the years starting with the Shannon scheme. If they were a tourist issue Bord Failte would have noticed by now.

So your in favor of more pylons through the countryside and you think it will not harm tourism

Do you know why tourists come to Ireland?

Capt'n Midnight · 24-11-2013 9:45pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

So your in favor of more pylons through the countryside and you think it will not harm tourism

Do you know why tourists come to Ireland?

86 years ago some of them would have come to marvel at the worlds largest hydroelectric scheme. :pac:

1930 map of pylons, they aren't exactly a new feature in the country side. The only difference is that a small minority with a sense of entitlement expect to be treated preferentially. In effect the rest of us are being asked to subsidise their lifestyle.

https://www.siemens.com/history/en/news/1123_shannon.htm

Offshore wind would be nice, but it's a lot more expensive because you not only have to build a wind turbine, you have to build an artificial island or plinth to put it on, and it now has to survive the worst of coastal weather and waves. Arklow bank could be putting 500MW into the grid. Add the Kish and Dublin bank and others up to Dundalk and something like 3,000MW of offshore wind is waiting in the wings - if only the price was competitive. Tidal turbines will be a while, but there's 200MW earmarked up north but the economies of scale haven't kicked in as it's a new technology.

Fossil fuel is getting more expensive and we have singled up on carbon emissions and tourists may not like it.

Nuclear is uneconomic here because one reactor would meet our summer night base load and would require the same again in fossil backup and there is zero chance of getting it built by 2030 , and zero chance of having it break even by 2050 or probably 2050. And doesn't go down well with some tourists.

Hydro is maxed out, at best you could possibly double it with micro-hydro / destroying lots of scenic waterfalls. Massive capital cost too. And even the it would only provide a tiny fraction of the power we need. In the future we may be able to use osmotic effects to extract more power, but it's like landfill gas, use it because it's handy and dispatchable but it's not going to provide more than a fraction of the demand.

Today given our climate onshore wind is the low hanging fruit of sustainable energy.

Macha · 24-11-2013 10:15pm

Survey by Failte Ireland shows tourists don't mind renewable energy infrastructure:

http://www.failteireland.ie/FailteIreland/media/WebsiteStructure/Documents/3_Research_Insights/4_Visitor_Insights/Visitor-Attitudes-on-the-Environment.pdf?ext=.pdf

Go across any European country and you'll see wind turbines and electricity grids.

MayoSalmon · 24-11-2013 10:31pm

Macha wrote: »

Survey by Failte Ireland shows tourists don't mind renewable energy infrastructure:

http://www.failteireland.ie/FailteIreland/media/WebsiteStructure/Documents/3_Research_Insights/4_Visitor_Insights/Visitor-Attitudes-on-the-Environment.pdf?ext=.pdf

Go across any European country and you'll see wind turbines and electricity grids.

Study looks outdated to say the least 6 years old by the looks of it.

Why are you comparing Ireland to other European countries. From that study vistors to Ireland put a high importance on scenery and natural landscape.

Tourists visiting Spain, England or German would not hence they can build all the horrible nuclear plants etc they want

Old diesel · 24-11-2013 10:46pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Study looks outdated to say the least 6 years old by the looks of it.

Why are you comparing Ireland to other European countries. From that study vistors to Ireland put a high importance on scenery and natural landscape.

Tourists visiting Spain, England or German would not hence they can build all the horrible nuclear plants etc they want

Well to be fair i don't think Pylons are particularly nice to look at - but it could be argued - if you've got nice scenery and natural landscape - its still going to be there - its just there may now be some "additional features" as well.

If we look at it another way - on the continent - in places like France or Italy the trains are electric - so wherever theres a railway line - you've got overhead powerlines to power the trains.

Bit different to be fair when you can see the railway tracks as it does give a bit of context to the overhead powerlines - but still.

Its something to be factored in alright - but not neccessarly a dealbreaker for pylons or wind turbines.

Theres a lot of things to be factored in - not just tourism - as i said my main interest would be as someone from rural Ireland - keeping rural communities going and keeping rural Ireland alive for generations to come.

Probably not a bad idea for rural Ireland to diversify into other industries beyond the traditional Agri and tourism (please note i am not saying get out of Agriculture and Tourism) - and if improved electricity supply and wind turbines help in keeping rural communities going for generations to come - id be very happy to look at them as potential good things.

But for me - there does need to be additional industries/jobs and an overall net additional benefit for rural communities with these projects.

Change can and does happen - but we need to change in order to move forward

Macha · 24-11-2013 11:49pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Study looks outdated to say the least 6 years old by the looks of it.

Why are you comparing Ireland to other European countries. From that study vistors to Ireland put a high importance on scenery and natural landscape.

Tourists visiting Spain, England or German would not hence they can build all the horrible nuclear plants etc they want

Well don't let your bias get in the way but it's 5 years not 6. I don't see why the results are invalid regardless.

As for scenery, you don't think people visit the UK, France, Scandinavia for the scenery??

Greensleeves · 25-11-2013 12:42pm

There is massive opposition to wind farms in the UK and France on the grounds that they ruin the scenery. The main reason these wind farms are being built in the Irish midlands is that Ireland is seen as a soft touch for planning. Plenty of room in the UK for them but nobody wants to look at them so they will be build in Ireland instead. Sad.

Old diesel · 25-11-2013 3:52pm

Greensleeves wrote: »

There is massive opposition to wind farms in the UK and France on the grounds that they ruin the scenery. The main reason these wind farms are being built in the Irish midlands is that Ireland is seen as a soft touch for planning. Plenty of room in the UK for them but nobody wants to look at them so they will be build in Ireland instead. Sad.

I don't mind having a certain amount of Wind turbines for our own electricity supply etc. But Im not too keen on this idea of exporting wind to UK - the wind energy projects themselves won't bring in enough jobs to earn their keep.

Its not like exporting Beef to the Uk - where the jobs are - Farmer, Agri contractors. Farm workers (on bigger outfits), meat factory staff, Hauliers and their drivers etc.

Exporting wind means no new jobs - the turbines will operate themselves - the wind turbine operators will bring in their own maintenance teams etc - or the manufacturer will.

And this idea that maybe we might make wind turbines or their parts in Ireland is a non runner. Afterall - if the likes of Nordex or Enercon have perfectly good factories in say Germany - wheres the incentive for them to set up here.

Its easier for them to import the turbines from Germany - I think anyway.

They say it will bring in income from the Uk - but who will get that income - the wind developers I would have thought no????.

Grudaire · 25-11-2013 3:59pm

In fairness money does go to the local Irish economy via the people who have windmills on their land.

Old diesel · 25-11-2013 4:09pm

Cliste wrote: »

In fairness money does go to the local Irish economy via the people who have windmills on their land.

True - but my concern is that people in that situation don't need to be on site - maybe ive missed something - but from a long term viewpoint - I could very easily see someone with land in Westmeath or Longford - with turbines on it - but they live/work in Dublin

They get the money in for the turbines at the due payment dates - but don't need to live there.

I realise obviously that many of the people who will have wind turbines on their farms will live in the area. But in the long term - that's not a great thing to rely on - as like why would you live in Westmeath next to your wind turbines if you have a job and house in Dublin.

Would be better to have proper industry and jobs in the area - so people have a reason to want to live in the area (work).

Grudaire · 25-11-2013 4:35pm

I don't see it as an either/or situation regarding wind farms vs industry and jobs. Ideally both, but at the moment the government doesn't have the capacity to create jobs.

Having a few turbines might make small holdings/smaller farms sustainable, a more viable option. At the moment this doesn't really exist.

Old diesel · 25-11-2013 4:43pm

Cliste wrote: »

I don't see it as an either/or situation regarding wind farms vs industry and jobs. Ideally both, but at the moment the government doesn't have the capacity to create jobs.

Having a few turbines might make small holdings/smaller farms sustainable, a more viable option. At the moment this doesn't really exist.

Your right - you can have other industries as well as wind. My point is more to do with the fact that exporting wind energy to the UK may not deliver extra jobs to make it worthwhile - from a jobs prospective

runawaybishop · 25-11-2013 5:04pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Study looks outdated to say the least 6 years old by the looks of it.

Why are you comparing Ireland to other European countries. From that study vistors to Ireland put a high importance on scenery and natural landscape.

Tourists visiting Spain, England or German would not hence they can build all the horrible nuclear plants etc they want

Have you any studies that show people will avoid a location because the pylons ruin the scenery? What if the pylons were prettier?

Grudaire · 25-11-2013 5:19pm

Old diesel wrote: »

Your right - you can have other industries as well as wind. My point is more to do with the fact that exporting wind energy to the UK may not deliver extra jobs to make it worthwhile - from a jobs prospective

I can understand what you're saying. In my opinion what makes the windmills worthwhile is:
- Reducing emissions,
- Remuneration for the local landowners affected, who will hopefully put it back into the local economy.

I understand that we probably place different weightings on these points..

Old diesel · 25-11-2013 5:41pm

Cliste wrote: »

I can understand what you're saying. In my opinion what makes the windmills worthwhile is:
- Reducing emissions,
- Remuneration for the local landowners affected, who will hopefully put it back into the local economy.

I understand that we probably place different weightings on these points..

Good stuff - obviously wed have different viewpoints but hey ho - that's what makes the internet fun

You've made some good well argued points - and I think they are perfectly good valid points.

Birdnuts · 25-11-2013 5:44pm

Cliste wrote: »

I can understand what you're saying. In my opinion what makes the windmills worthwhile is:
- Reducing emissions,
- Remuneration for the local landowners affected, who will hopefully put it back into the local economy.

I understand that we probably place different weightings on these points..

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farming.php?newsid=17812

No contracts have been signed with the UK yet so if I were one of those landowners I woudn't be ordering my new Ferrari just yet. Large elements of the UK government aren't too keen on the cost of all this eitheir for their consumers. There was also an investigative programme on some of these contracts signed by farmers in the midlands on TV3 recently and it appears many did not realise the implications of the small print and are not exactly happy with the advice they got from the IFA eitheir.

Old diesel · 25-11-2013 8:03pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farming.php?newsid=17812

No contracts have been signed with the UK yet so if I were one of those landowners I woudn't be ordering my new Ferrari just yet. Large elements of the UK government aren't too keen on the cost of all this eitheir for their consumers. There was also an investigative programme on some of these contracts signed by farmers in the midlands on TV3 recently and it appears many did not realise the implications of the small print and are not exactly happy with the advice they got from the IFA eitheir.

Oops if some of the Uk Govt aren't happy with cost to consumer - then that could definitely put the skids on the project.

Problem is though - that pesky EU directive requiring a certain amount of power in each country to be supplied via renewables.

However - a certain Mr D Cameron has been making noises about a referendum on the UK even staying in the EU - if he wins the next election.

Interesting times ahead I suspect

Capt'n Midnight · 25-11-2013 8:06pm

The other way of looking at wind farms is that while they don't generate a lot of money they do reduce the amount of fossil fuel we import so less money leaving the country.

Old diesel · 25-11-2013 8:10pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The other way of looking at wind farms is that while they don't generate a lot of money they do reduce the amount of fossil fuel we import so less money leaving the country.

Very good point - my concern though is with the plan to export to Uk - and whether we get sufficient benefit from it.

As regards wind turbines themselves - yup they are fine if they produce the power and reduce our need for fossils.

Birdnuts · 25-11-2013 9:13pm

Old diesel wrote: »

Oops if some of the Uk Govt aren't happy with cost to consumer - then that could definitely put the skids on the project.

Problem is though - that pesky EU directive requiring a certain amount of power in each country to be supplied via renewables.

However - a certain Mr D Cameron has been making noises about a referendum on the UK even staying in the EU - if he wins the next election.

Interesting times ahead I suspect

The Irish signed up for the maximum amount which was stupid and short sighted. Other countries signed up to levels that suited their own grid systems or reduced CO2 levels via the cutting of waste,switching to lower CO2 fuels like gas etc. which is what we should have done.

Birdnuts · 25-11-2013 9:24pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The other way of looking at wind farms is that while they don't generate a lot of money they do reduce the amount of fossil fuel we import so less money leaving the country.

We already have more wind output then is needed - adding more won't reduce the amount of fossil fuels needed for low wind periods eg. for the past week under HP conditions and high energy demand for lighting and heating during long cold nights. Intergrating wind into a grid also causes fossil fuel power stations to work less efficiently and therefore more fuel is needed

Capt'n Midnight · 25-11-2013 10:13pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

We already have more wind output then is needed - adding more won't reduce the amount of fossil fuels needed for low wind periods eg. for the past week under HP conditions and high energy demand for lighting and heating during long cold nights. Intergrating wind into a grid also causes fossil fuel power stations to work less efficiently and therefore more fuel is needed

Weasel words

more fuel is needed per unit when idling. But overall a lot less units are needed because you are getting them from wind. So it means a lot less fuel is needed.

It's like peddling when going downhill on a bike. You know you aren't transferring power as efficiently to the wheels but somehow it's a less effort overall

At times we get up to 1.5GW from wind - like on Wednesday
http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/ 20/11/2013
The difference between the lines is how much reserve power is needed. BUT there also needs to be enough reserve power to cover the largest generating unit, so in practice wind needs less backup than is already needed on the grid.

The limit is down to 50% max for stability / 1.5GW ( Gate 2 ?)
Portugal has got over 80% at times so it can be done
Gate 3 is looking towards 4GW http://www.eirgrid.com/gate3/

Greensleeves · 26-11-2013 5:27pm

The other way of looking at wind farms is that while they don't generate a lot of money they do reduce the amount of fossil fuel we import so less money leaving the country.

Untrue. The midlands wind farms are for export only so there will be no reduction in the amount of fossil fuel we import.

Old diesel · 26-11-2013 5:50pm

Greensleeves wrote: »

Untrue. The midlands wind farms are for export only so there will be no reduction in the amount of fossil fuel we import.

Indeed - hence why I have an issue with the number of jobs (or lack off) that wind power (in itself) will deliver.

In saying that however - I think there is the idea that if Irelands wind production is low - it can be imported from Uk - if Uk has excess wind production.

I personally take the view that its epically pointless - if households in the Midlands have wind turbines nearby - but they end up getting their electricity from non wind sources - while the wind energy from the nearby turbines goes off to the UK.

Not a great approach - but to my mind - the critical point is whether Ireland can do a good enough deal on the energy been exported to justify having wind turbines producing energy for another country.

My concern would be that too much of the benefits of the money coming in will go to wind energy companies - and not enough to communities in the Midlands who will have these wind turbines in their area.

.

fclauson · 12-12-2013 11:29pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The other way of looking at wind farms is that while they don't generate a lot of money they do reduce the amount of fossil fuel we import so less money leaving the country.

the subsidies in them would have been better spent in upgrading dwellings from an energy efficiency perspective & electrical equipment generally perhaps with PV which allows for usage at the electrical generation source using the grid as a inter-seasonal store. (see my other posts elsewhere on these boards on this topic)

Macha · 13-12-2013 8:36am

fclauson wrote: »

the subsidies in them would have been better spent in upgrading dwellings from an energy efficiency perspective & electrical equipment generally perhaps with PV which allows for usage at the electrical generation source using the grid as a inter-seasonal store. (see my other posts elsewhere on these boards on this topic)

You can't choose between them for grid reasons.

Germany has a feck load of PV in its system right now and it's good for daytime, peak shaving etc but they need wind to complement PV's generation curves (which it does quite well).

The idea that we can just go for one or the other makes no sense from a technical perspective.

Jim Martin · 13-12-2013 2:32pm

Nobody yet seems to have come up with the answer of where does the electricity come from on wind-less days - which can often occur on the coldest days when the most electricity is needed (witness the last 2 cold winters 2010/11)?

fclauson · 13-12-2013 2:42pm

Jim Martin wrote: »

Nobody yet seems to have come up with the answer of where does the electricity come from on wind-less days - which can often occur on the coldest days when the most electricity is needed (witness the last 2 cold winters 2010/11)?

Hence my comment about invest in retrofit and insulation - reduce the demand for energy for the long term rather than providing more energy all be it alternative energy

Old diesel · 13-12-2013 2:44pm

fclauson wrote: »

Hence my comment about invest in retrofit and insulation - reduce the demand for energy for the long term rather than providing more energy all be it alternative energy

Isn't there work been done on developing the ability to store electricity for later use - or was I dreaming at the time

fclauson · 13-12-2013 6:05pm

Old diesel wrote: »

Isn't there work been done on developing the ability to store electricity for later use - or was I dreaming at the time

There is (google megawatt batter) - one is being build for 400MW !! (heaven knows what environmental coast in terms of raw materials there is )

it would be interesting to compare coasts with a the pumped water model - which has the added benefit that of water for drinking etc - see the brown bit of the graph at http://www.eirgrid.com/media/All-Island_Wind_and_Fuel_Mix_Report_October_2013.pdf

Greensleeves · 13-12-2013 7:05pm

Jim Martin wrote: »

Nobody yet seems to have come up with the answer of where does the electricity come from on wind-less days - which can often occur on the coldest days when the most electricity is needed (witness the last 2 cold winters 2010/11)?

I think that's where the European supergrid comes in. There was an article in the Independent the other day about Eirgrid looking into laying an undersea cable to France at the cost of 1 billion Euro (co-funded with the French I think). According to the article the power line would be used to export renewable energy to France and import power to Ireland if/when required. Given that France could supply its own renewable energy or import it more cheaply accross its several land borders I presume the French see themselves having a market for their nuclear power in Ireland rather than a need to import any electricity from us.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/eirgrid-wants-1bn-power-line-linked-from-france-29823301.html

Wind farm for the Midlands

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