Voting Rights For Irish Born Living Abroad

MadsL · 16-02-2012 10:29pm

I already did, PPS number issued and a valid tax record.

In fact PPS number should do it...if you don't already have one issued.

If you are Irish you will need to bring the following:
Birth Certificate issued by the General Registrars Office (GRO) or the old Long Form Birth Certificate

and
Photographic ID such as your Passport or Driving Licence

and
Evidence of address such as a Household Bill in your name.
(If you present an Irish Passport but were born abroad you should bring either your "Certificate of registration of a foreign birth" or birth certificate from your country of birth)

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW100/Pages/HowToGetAPPSNo.aspx

That should mean that any emigrees keep their vote, and any passport holders without any form of real connection (residence period or tax record) are excluded.

munchkin_utd · 29-02-2012 9:22am

actually, thats a prefect way of expanding the voter base to emmigrants (and other irish citizens abroad) with a valid an real interest in 26 counties affairs.
Only someone who has lived in the "republic" at some stage will have a PPS number.

And only someone who has lived in the republic is as a rule to have a deep interest in what happens with regard to social and economic affairs and can make an informed decision at the ballot box.
(you only have to look at how clueless Gerry Adams was at the beginning of his stint down south to realise how clueless even the most "irish" of people can be on 26 counties matters when the details and nuances of it never affected or interested them before) **

The more I have thought about it over the past few years, a system like in Germany that only citizens with a proven residence in the homeland at some stage of their life can vote when abroad.

What was missing for Irish people was a means of proof.
The PPS though is a perfect means of proof!

** Those in deepest south armagh/ south fermanagh are well clued in to 26county matters but they are a small minority of the million+ irish passport holders who have never lived in the state.

Irishheart · 07-03-2012 10:12pm

If still and Irish citizen carrying Irish passport then you should be allowed vote in your home country no matter where you are.
One day they may come back.
So what do the anti Irish voting outside of their country think.They should pay for the right to vote?
I thought voting was a freedom.:rolleyes:

munchkin_utd · 08-03-2012 12:56am

Irishheart wrote: »

If still and Irish citizen carrying Irish passport then you should be allowed vote in your home country no matter where you are.
One day they may come back.
So what do the anti Irish voting outside of their country think.They should pay for the right to vote?
I thought voting was a freedom.:rolleyes:

strange post. Maybe do a preview the next time?

Anyhow, this here irish person abroad thinks Irish abroad who have at some stage lived in the 26 counties should be entitled to keep the vote they had at home when moving abroad.

the pps nr reference wasnt a suggestion to continue remiting taxes from abroad but was the simple fact that the PPS nr is your concrete evidence as to whether someone has lived in "Ireland" in the past at some stage as the swathes of 2nd generation emmigrants and older would not have it so would not be entitled to vote.

Irishheart · 08-03-2012 1:04am

munchkin_utd wrote: »

strange post. Maybe do a preview the next time?

Anyhow, this here irish person abroad thinks Irish abroad who have at some stage lived in the 26 counties should be entitled to keep the vote they had at home when moving abroad.

the pps nr reference wasnt a suggestion to continue remiting taxes from abroad but was the simple fact that the PPS nr is your concrete evidence as to whether someone has lived in "Ireland" in the past at some stage as the swathes of 2nd generation emmigrants and older would not have it so would not be entitled to vote.

Well to be honest i dont think second generation Irish should vote in Ireland unless they move here or take Irish passport like dual citizenship (and i highly doubt alot would go to much trouble for it).
No i have heard people complain that since no longer paying tax in Ireland why should they get to vote.On top of the ludicrous idea that they left because they wanted to so abandoned Ireland,so shouldnt have right.They should have right to vote to swing country to way they wish with said vote as still Irish citizens,and paying tax does not make it any more a right then person who isn't paying tax.People on social welfare have right to vote to.

P.S this here Irish person part mean.Most Irish people would be happy with Irish abroad voting,as its a free thing not something that is to be paid for right of being a citizen shouldnt end because you had to move countries.

celtictiger32 · 25-04-2012 2:04pm

personally i think the votes should be kept to irish citizens actually in the country, i understand many people have left over the years through hardship etc but a lot of us still remained.

also someone said earlier that they thought voting was a freedom not always the case some countries fine people who do not vote i think australia implements this law if im not mistaken i think something similar should be introduced here.

Ozymandius2011 · 25-04-2012 11:48pm

I'm sorry but I cannot support people who don't pay taxes to Ireland voting in Ireland. Even the Irish unemployed pay indirect taxes.

munchkin_utd · 01-06-2012 11:40am

Irishheart wrote: »

Well to be honest i dont think second generation Irish should vote in Ireland unless they move here or take Irish passport like dual citizenship (and i highly doubt alot would go to much trouble for it).<snip>

absolutely ! Or as I suggested, at least have lived in the state for a period (proved by possession of a PPS nr) so they have an appreciation for whats going on.

Just listening to RTEs coverage of the latest referendum (.. in my office in Germany, indeed us abroad have no clue about whats going on so cant be trusted to vote with an informed opinion.)

One of the pundits put down the low turnout to the shambles that is the electoral register. People moved and not transferred onto the register where they now live, or folks who have emigrated haven't been stripped of their vote yet. The entire basis of democracy in Ireland is already banjaxed.

So how is that relevant you might think!
In general elections the number of seats is dependent on the number of people registered to vote in a constituency. So on that front the system currently is flawed as folks living elsewhere in Ireland or abroad but not in the position to turn up at the polls are skewing the nr of TDs in areas (and depriving other areas of TDs).

Or more relevant to this thread.
If you read the constitutional review on the possibility of citizens abroad voting their main argument against emigrants voting is that every last vote counts so extra folks abroad voting could decide a local TD and that the system is representative of the locality so you cant have people from outside skewing it.

But if ALREADY folks now living outside the constituency are deciding either directly or indirectly the results of elections/ shape of the parliament, then the main argument to taking the vote from Irish emigrants abroad falls on its face.

Ozymandius2011 · 02-06-2012 5:10pm

I disagree with this for a couple of reasons:

- They are not paying taxes to the Irish state. Even the Irish unemployed are paying taxes when you include indirect taxes like VAT.

- They are not directly effected by the decisions made by the politicians yet want the right to elect them. That constitutes seeking rights without responsibilities.

- Where dual-citizenship applies, ther is a potential conflict of loyalty.

golden lane · 02-06-2012 5:22pm

a simple amswer, to a simple question......the irish abroad who cannot vote in their host country...should have a vote in the home country.......

nobody should have two votes.......and nobody should have no vote.......

Feathers · 09-06-2012 2:47pm

As has been mentioned, if you look to the likes of France where you have a number of seats for non-resident citizens. Image if the Dáil had 3 seats for citizens abroad (1% of seats for 20% of the electorate if you say 800,000 abroad & 3.1 electorate at the moment).

People are mentioning having to live with the consequences of your vote. The last thing the political parties want is voting for ex-pats, because they can't promise to fill in the potholes at the end of the road. To sway a vote, it would have to be ideological rather than a quick fix. Surely that is only good for Ireland?

& one of the guys saying even his brother abroad thought he shouldn't have a vote. But surely in that case, he wouldn't bother voting. If I were to vote in London, I'd have to take a half-day from work & travel to get to the embassy during office hours. & if there was a fee to do so I'd happily pay it.

I think in generally, the people who would make that effort are more informed about politics at home that a lot of people who go out & vote each time.

Shea O'Meara · 11-06-2012 3:13pm

If someone is forced to leave Ireland due to the incompetence of the government should they not have a say in colouring the political landscape in such a way that may enable them to return, as is their right?

Most people are ran out rather than left Ireland in the lurch or some other such nonsense.
Should an unemployed person with little or no prospects tough it out on the dole for a few years or seek employment elsewhere? That's an option regarding survival and quality of life put to most people who emigrate based on politically driven economics. The case could be made that those people have a voice that needs to be heard just as and if not more that those of us who thankfully are not put in that position.

There's a vast difference between somebody backpacking through south asia for a year or two and someone working abroad. You'll find a lot will move back if the economy improves as they have done in the past.
If we are shunning those who leave we should also be apologising because they had to.

I would suggest those abroad can vote but possibly put a five or six year limit on the right.

celtictiger32 · 11-06-2012 6:36pm

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

If someone is forced to leave Ireland due to the incompetence of the government should they not have a say in colouring the political landscape in such a way that may enable them to return, as is their right?

Most people are ran out rather than left Ireland in the lurch or some other such nonsense.
Should an unemployed person with little or no prospects tough it out on the dole for a few years or seek employment elsewhere? That's an option regarding survival and quality of life put to most people who emigrate based on politically driven economics. The case could be made that those people have a voice that needs to be heard just as and if not more that those of us who thankfully are not put in that position.

There's a vast difference between somebody backpacking through south asia for a year or two and someone working abroad. You'll find a lot will move back if the economy improves as they have done in the past.
If we are shunning those who leave we should also be apologising because they had to.

I would suggest those abroad can vote but possibly put a five or six year limit on the right.

no they shouldnt, many of us stayed here and took it on the chin while they left the country

Feathers · 11-06-2012 7:01pm

celtictiger32 wrote: »

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

If someone is forced to leave Ireland due to the incompetence of the government should they not have a say in colouring the political landscape in such a way that may enable them to return, as is their right?

Most people are ran out rather than left Ireland in the lurch or some other such nonsense.
Should an unemployed person with little or no prospects tough it out on the dole for a few years or seek employment elsewhere? That's an option regarding survival and quality of life put to most people who emigrate based on politically driven economics. The case could be made that those people have a voice that needs to be heard just as and if not more that those of us who thankfully are not put in that position.

There's a vast difference between somebody backpacking through south asia for a year or two and someone working abroad. You'll find a lot will move back if the economy improves as they have done in the past.
If we are shunning those who leave we should also be apologising because they had to.

I would suggest those abroad can vote but possibly put a five or six year limit on the right.

no they shouldnt, many of us stayed here and took it on the chin while they left the country

Many people stayed and had it easy also & many others left to send money home. You do realise that if everyone stayed there'd be an even worse recession?

Shea O'Meara · 12-06-2012 5:17pm

celtictiger32 wrote: »

no they shouldnt, many of us stayed here and took it on the chin while they left the country

I think your post is pretty ridiculous and what does taking it on the chin entail? Signing on, losing your home, getting into debt, all the while with a brave smile on your face?

It's well documented that in the 50's and 60's it was Irish working abroad sending money home which kept many working class households afloat.

eire4 · 17-06-2012 6:52pm

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I think your post is pretty ridiculous and what does taking it on the chin entail? Signing on, losing your home, getting into debt, all the while with a brave smile on your face?

It's well documented that in the 50's and 60's it was Irish working abroad sending money home which kept many working class households afloat.

While today the Irish government has no problem looking to influential Irish people abroad to invest in Ireland through companies they own or run or use their influence to get other companies to invest in Ireland. As well as the many Irish who send money home or who even help with Irish exports by buying Irish products abroad.

I firmly believe that Ireland needs to make a constituency for the Irish living abroad. Those Irish would then register and vote at an embassy or consulate and we would have say 3 TD's in the Dail representing that Irish abroad constituency. This would I believe bring a new positive dynamic into Irish politics and empower many Irish living abroad to directly become more involved. I think we miss out in Ireland as many of our talented people leave to find a better standard of living elsewhere. We need to embrace them not shun them or use them as the government does.

poeticseraphim · 18-06-2012 12:14am

No they should not ....unless they are to return within six months

The reason is serious why should someone who does not live under the consequences or regime that emerges be able to vote.

If you don't live here then you should not be able to vote.

Regardless of where you are born.

The only exception being the armed forces serving abroad as they are ruled by the regime in power.

But no not those who have left.

Irish immigrants don't accpet this ....leaving your country..is leaving your country....you can keep contacts...but it is a sacrifice

Graduates leaving have taken the tax investment in their education and because of the Govt inability to provide them with a good enough living have taken the rewards of this education abroad.

We hope some day they return.

But it is unlikely...THAT is the main reason Irish born living outside Ireland should not be allowed vote...the chances of them returning are slim...

This has always been hard for Irish people to accept...but their children will be born abroad will not be Irish (unless brought back and raised here)...just because they have an Irish passport does not one Irish.

It's very harsh given the current situation...but there you have it ...when you leave Ireland you leave more than you might at first realize...

You leave behind your children's Irish legacy....

I am considering a move myself...what holds me back is the faact thatmy rights as a citizen would be gone ...also if i had children...they would not be Irish...

And yes we living here are sticking it out and i would not want those living abroad to have a vote unless they return.

I got a free Uni degree from this country .......if i choose to leave i am aware of the implications

Those who have lived abroad many years are often very separated from the current Irish life culture and politics ..rememberthe boom years when those who lived abroad returned how different they where and how different it seemed to them...

Abanoned is a harsh word ..but it is the feeling of many here... you abanoned us by leaving ..the country abandoned you

We have abandoned each other....it can only be rememdied by them returning

It would cause resentment ...and distrust.....here anyway....we leave with the austerity you vote in....or we live with the unstabilty you vote in..NO

If you are Irish born and live here then you get to vote...otherwise no ...

And to be honest it has been clear that THIS time around Ireland has been receiving little help from abroad.....as those of Irish descent living in other countries want to contribute to their new country which is right and good and as it should be....you give most to where you live

And it is not fair to ask these people to send money home ...and not right to be honest..

I think the main issue is that they are not going to come home...

Also other countries giving this right to people is irrelevant....they do not have the numbers where it could make such difference

If it were to happen i would put a one year time limit on it and no more....buti wouldnot be in favour of it

And i am a person considering the move

poeticseraphim · 18-06-2012 8:12am

Also ..most this time around are not sending money home but spending it, they are a totally different generation.

Infact i have heard of parents here sending money to their celtic tiger cubs abroad..

It would be intersting to actually see figures of how much people send home.

Also that is to their own families even if they are sending money.

It is your duty to provide for family.

But to be honest most stories in the media convey the impression that this generation are spending their disposable income much like they did here and not saving.

As for buying Irish products (i would also like to see figures of this) well Kerrygold is popular with Germans...i mean other nationalities buy it too

The expat market for Irish products/News etc..i don't know that it is that large ..is it???

I mean i think most of them simply want to integrate really..

Maybe i am wrong ...but you don't see much expat demand for Irish newspapers or TV
Or even expat stuff on youtube...maybe i am not looking ..but i think it might be an overstated demand

poeticseraphim · 18-06-2012 8:47am

Also American expats still have to pat income tax to America despite living outside the U.S...thats what gives them the right to vote

If Irish expats were prepared to pay Irish income tax then yes...they should have the right to vote...

poeticseraphim · 18-06-2012 8:59am

eire4 wrote: »

While today the Irish government has no problem looking to influential Irish people abroad to invest in Ireland through companies they own or run or use their influence to get other companies to invest in Ireland. As well as the many Irish who send money home or who even help with Irish exports by buying Irish products abroad.

I firmly believe that Ireland needs to make a constituency for the Irish living abroad. Those Irish would then register and vote at an embassy or consulate and we would have say 3 TD's in the Dail representing that Irish abroad constituency. This would I believe bring a new positive dynamic into Irish politics and empower many Irish living abroad to directly become more involved. I think we miss out in Ireland as many of our talented people leave to find a better standard of living elsewhere. We need to embrace them not shun them or use them as the government does.

Absolutely ridiculous they cannot affect change in the country you live in whats the point??

I think the 'help' the Irish dispora gives is overstated...Irish Americans help Irish Americans....the dont provide jobs here

And the only reason American expats can vote is that they still have to pay income tax to America when living overseas or they lose their citizenship!

They are often doubly taxed until they give up citizenship (but it is actuall illegal to give up citizenship to avoid taxes)

Unclesam is under NO illusion ofwhat makes one American ....your contribution in income tax and if you don't pay it not only do you not get voting rights ..but you lose citizenship or face prosecution

So maybe we dont treat our dispora so bad after all huh??

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam5/expat_tax_2.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47063487/ns/business-personal_finance/t/us-taxes-cost-some-expatriates-their-citizenship/#.T-A1FJhRKSo

the groutch · 18-06-2012 11:37am

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

If someone is forced to leave Ireland due to the incompetence of the government should they not have a say in colouring the political landscape in such a way that may enable them to return, as is their right?

Most people are ran out rather than left Ireland in the lurch or some other such nonsense.
Should an unemployed person with little or no prospects tough it out on the dole for a few years or seek employment elsewhere? That's an option regarding survival and quality of life put to most people who emigrate based on politically driven economics. The case could be made that those people have a voice that needs to be heard just as and if not more that those of us who thankfully are not put in that position.

There's a vast difference between somebody backpacking through south asia for a year or two and someone working abroad. You'll find a lot will move back if the economy improves as they have done in the past.
If we are shunning those who leave we should also be apologising because they had to.

I would suggest those abroad can vote but possibly put a five or six year limit on the right.

that's BS, nobody is FORCED out of the country.
there's nobody rounding them up and forcing them onto a plane.
every Irish citizen who leaves the country does so of their own will.
they know exactly what rights they're going to lose when they leave.

hardCopy · 21-06-2012 2:54pm

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Absolutely ridiculous they cannot affect change in the country you live in whats the point??

I think the 'help' the Irish dispora gives is overstated...Irish Americans help Irish Americans....the dont provide jobs here

And the only reason American expats can vote is that they still have to pay income tax to America when living overseas or they lose their citizenship!

They are often doubly taxed until they give up citizenship (but it is actuall illegal to give up citizenship to avoid taxes)

Unclesam is under NO illusion ofwhat makes one American ....your contribution in income tax and if you don't pay it not only do you not get voting rights ..but you lose citizenship or face prosecution

So maybe we dont treat our dispora so bad after all huh??

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam5/expat_tax_2.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47063487/ns/business-personal_finance/t/us-taxes-cost-some-expatriates-their-citizenship/#.T-A1FJhRKSo

It's also extremely difficult to relinquish citizenship and if you are still a US citizen when you die they will demand estate tax from you beneficiaries (much higher than Irish estate tax)

Feathers · 21-06-2012 8:28pm

poeticseraphim wrote: »

No they should not ....unless they are to return within six months
...

I think the main issue is that they are not going to come home...

...

If it were to happen i would put a one year time limit on it and no more....buti wouldnot be in favour of it

Even within your own post you're buckling under the pressure, by the end of the discussion you'll be saying '10 years, but that's it — not a day more!'

I don't know if you can say, "their chances of coming back are slim". Sure, it's a recession, but there are still people who've gone abroad for a year or two for study who've every intention of coming back.

You've others who might be on a temporary transfer in work to upskill — If you're working for a multi-national, they could send you to another office.

Refusing people in these scenarios a vote is only encouraging them to stay abroad. The likes of Seán Sherlock scaring off FDI in the internet sector for instance could well have an effect on whether you'd get a job back here if you're working in web industries.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Also American expats still have to pat income tax to America despite living outside the U.S...thats what gives them the right to vote

If Irish expats were prepared to pay Irish income tax then yes...they should have the right to vote...

Americans only have to pay tax up to the balance of what they would pay if they were in America, discounting any tax they've already paid on those earning in the country of residence. For most people, this isn't going to make a huge amount of difference one way or the other.

For example, if Ireland brough that in, I would have to pay little or nothing living in the UK, as our tax bands are the same (possibly a 1% difference on the lower rate, IIRC).

the groutch wrote: »

that's BS, nobody is FORCED out of the country.
there's nobody rounding them up and forcing them onto a plane.
every Irish citizen who leaves the country does so of their own will.
they know exactly what rights they're going to lose when they leave.

In 1970s, no-one forced women to get married. There was no-one rounding them up and forcing them into a church. Every Irish women who got married did so of their own will. They know exactly what rights they were going to lose when they did so.

So… it's perfectly reasonable that women can't work in the public sector after marriage? You're position may be OK, but your logic leaves a lot to be desired.

Feathers · 21-06-2012 8:33pm

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Also other countries giving this right to people is irrelevant....they do not have the numbers where it could make such difference

You do realise that what's important isn't the number of citizens eligible to vote from abroad, but the constituency boundaries?

If like in France, you have an expatriate constituency, it wouldn't matter if you've 1bn Irish abroad: if there's 3 seats in that constituency (for example), those abroad can elect 1% of the Dáil — no more, no less.

eire4 · 23-06-2012 12:42am

Feathers wrote: »

You do realise that what's important isn't the number of citizens eligible to vote from abroad, but the constituency boundaries?

If like in France, you have an expatriate constituency, it wouldn't matter if you've 1bn Irish abroad: if there's 3 seats in that constituency (for example), those abroad can elect 1% of the Dáil — no more, no less.

Very good point Feathers. It is disappointing that some do not see the benefits of bringing the global Irish nation so to speak closer together to further the cause of our country at home.

heyjude · 23-06-2012 1:20am

If you are advocating the vote only for Irish born citizens living abroad, then you are advocating the creation of two separate types of Irish citizen, one of whom can vote in Irish elections and one of which couldn't. So in the current Ireland football team, most would have Irish voting rights and some due to their place of birth wouldn't, yet all are considered Irish. I would imagine that the creation of such a right for some non-resident citizens and not for others, would be challenged in the courts.

Feathers wrote: »

You do realise that what's important isn't the number of citizens eligible to vote from abroad, but the constituency boundaries?

If like in France, you have an expatriate constituency, it wouldn't matter if you've 1bn Irish abroad: if there's 3 seats in that constituency (for example), those abroad can elect 1% of the Dáil — no more, no less.

But in Ireland, irrespective of constituency, there is a constitutional requirement for one TD per 20,000-30,000 people, so its hard to see how they could create a situation where for example, 3 TDs were supposed to represent perhaps a million citizens abroad. Surely that would be challenged too, as being unfair. The actual constituency boundary doesn't matter, what would matter is how many TDs were to be elected to represent this new Irish born exiles constituency.

One thing that you should ponder in supporting this idea though is that, for most of the last 20 years we've had coalition governments with slim majorities, so how would you fancy handing the balance of power to a TD living in Sydney and elected by Irish citizens living in Australia or wherever ? and given that their constituents wouldn't be Irish taxpayers, would there not be a real danger of them seeking and getting concessions that appeal to their voters such as free calls home, grants paid for by the Irish government for their children to attend university in Australia or in a more extreme case, free flights home to Ireland ? Independent TDs have already got a huge list of promises fulfilled for their support for past governments, but at least the beneficiaries were taxpayers and the money was spent here, that wouldn't be the case with Irish voters living and working abroad.

As for Ireland being the only country in Europe that doesn't allow its citizens abroad vote in elections, much of that is due to the fact that in general the countries with the most citizens abroad, tend to have large populations, so the emigrant vote wouldn't unduly influence the overall election result, but adding 800,000 Irish born voters onto our register of electors especially if that had the same representation as irish resident voters, would be a huge factor in determining any future government. I cannot believe that having a government determined by a group that do not have to live with the consequences of their vote is healthy.

poeticseraphim · 23-06-2012 5:00am

Feathers wrote: »

Even within your own post you're buckling under the pressure, by the end of the discussion you'll be saying '10 years, but that's it — not a day more!'

I don't know if you can say, "their chances of coming back are slim". Sure, it's a recession, but there are still people who've gone abroad for a year or two for study who've every intention of coming back.

You've others who might be on a temporary transfer in work to upskill — If you're working for a multi-national, they could send you to another office.

Refusing people in these scenarios a vote is only encouraging them to stay abroad. The likes of Seán Sherlock scaring off FDI in the internet sector for instance could well have an effect on whether you'd get a job back here if you're working in web industries.

Americans only have to pay tax up to the balance of what they would pay if they were in America, discounting any tax they've already paid on those earning in the country of residence. For most people, this isn't going to make a huge amount of difference one way or the other.

For example, if Ireland brough that in, I would have to pay little or nothing living in the UK, as our tax bands are the same (possibly a 1% difference on the lower rate, IIRC).

In 1970s, no-one forced women to get married. There was no-one rounding them up and forcing them into a church. Every Irish women who got married did so of their own will. They know exactly what rights they were going to lose when they did so.

So… it's perfectly reasonable that women can't work in the public sector after marriage? You're position may be OK, but your logic leaves a lot to be desired.

No Americans pay full tax to Uncle Sam and are often doubly taxed they have tax treaties in some countries which allow Amrica to collect tax.

Unless your taxes come here you should not be allowed vote here..unless you live here you should not be allowed live here.

No one forced the men to get married they did and retained their rights ...i am not suggestig SOME expats lose the right to vote...ALL ....it is nt discrimmination...

The married men made the same choice but kept their rights ...that made it discrimination

It was nothing to do with getting married it was being born female that the GOVt had an issue with..

And of all the ridiculous arguements that has got to be the one of the worst.

Anyway it is not going to happen so i am not worried.

It would be undemocratic they do not live with the consequences as we do.

And if you think anyone who leaves has much of a chance of returning you are very naive ..this is much worse than a recession.

It is global economic meltdown.
It would not be popular and i could see Irish at home resenting and getting angry with expats..

It would cause bad feeling.

I hate the term 'global Irish' rubbish....

We dont want you to champion our cause ....we want to determine our future here

There is no 'global Irish nation'.......that is for tourists and plastic paddies

Let the country determine it's future...

We have enough absantee Landlords in brussels

Feathers · 23-06-2012 12:52pm

heyjude wrote: »

But in Ireland, irrespective of constituency, there is a constitutional requirement for one TD per 20,000-30,000 people, so its hard to see how they could create a situation where for example, 3 TDs were supposed to represent perhaps a million citizens abroad. Surely that would be challenged too, as being unfair. The actual constituency boundary doesn't matter, what would matter is how many TDs were to be elected to represent this new Irish born exiles constituency.

That's a good point alright, presumably to work effectively you'd need a referendum to adjust this. Although internal figures are worked out on the basis of the census; presumably any external ones would have to be worked on a register of electors — would be interesting to see what number of those 800,000 signed-up.

heyjude wrote: »

One thing that you should ponder in supporting this idea though is that, for most of the last 20 years we've had coalition governments with slim majorities, so how would you fancy handing the balance of power to a TD living in Sydney and elected by Irish citizens living in Australia or wherever ?

Well one way one be to do what FG promised when they were running for election — trial it with the presidential election.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

No Americans pay full tax to Uncle Sam and are often doubly taxed they have tax treaties in some countries which allow Amrica to collect tax.

Presume you're saying "No, Americans pay full tax to Uncle Sam", as opposed to agreeing with me. Do you have a link for that?

Wikipedia wrote:

The United States taxes citizens and residents on their worldwide income. Citizens and residents living and working outside the U.S. may be entitled to a foreign earned income exclusion that reduces taxable income.[1] For 2010, the maximum exclusion is $91,500 per taxpayer.[2] In addition, the taxpayer may exclude housing expenses in excess of 16% of this maximum (i.e., $40.11 per day in 2010), but with limits. The exclusion is available only for wages or self employment income earned for services performed outside the U.S. The exclusion is claimed on IRS Form 2555.

— "Foreign earned income exclusion "

poeticseraphim wrote: »

No one forced the men to get married they did and retained their rights ...i am not suggestig SOME expats lose the right to vote...ALL ....it is nt discrimmination...

The married men made the same choice but kept their rights ...that made it discrimination

It was nothing to do with getting married it was being born female that the GOVt had an issue with..

And of all the ridiculous arguements that has got to be the one of the worst.

You obviously missed my point completely — i.e. just because someone was aware of an outcome of their action in advance, doesn't make that outcome fair and right. Yes, people know they won't be able to vote if they leave, but using that to say that they therefore shouldn't be allowed to vote isn't logically sound.

Why should it be this way? "Because it's always been this way". Yes, my argument is the ridiculous one, obviously.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

And if you think anyone who leaves has much of a chance of returning you are very naive ..this is much worse than a recession.

And if you think the likes of the bank guarantee haven't had a negative impact on people's prospects of returning, you're very naïve.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

I hate the term 'global Irish' rubbish....

We dont want you to champion our cause ....we want to determine our future here

There is no 'global Irish nation'.......that is for tourists and plastic paddies

Let the country determine it's future...

We have enough absantee Landlords in brussels

& that's the type of small-minded attitude that's wrecking the country. Rather than having the likes of Craig Barrett from Intel serving on a state board free of charge, you'd prefer have some FG backbencher getting a perk for voting the party line.

That's not self-determination, that's self-delusion. :rolleyes:

eire4 · 23-06-2012 2:38pm

It is sad to see some real shots been taken at Irish citizens living abroad calling them plastic paddies etc. An Irishman or woman is Irish no matter where he or she lives. The implication behind such sentiments is that Irish people living abroad are inferior and not really Irish. That is a dangerous statement to make and one I totally disagree with.
I will re state my belief that even more so at this difficult time we as a nation need to look for creative solutions to rebuild our country. One way for me is to try and bring the expert abilities in various fields of the Irish living abroad to bear within different parts of our economy and giving the Irish abroad a voice is empowering and shows a positive confidence in our fellow Irish abroad. If for nothing else we need fresh ideas and fresh looks at our problems as a country as it is.

The Corinthian · 25-06-2012 4:12pm

eire4 wrote: »

It is sad to see some real shots been taken at Irish citizens living abroad calling them plastic paddies etc. An Irishman or woman is Irish no matter where he or she lives. The implication behind such sentiments is that Irish people living abroad are inferior and not really Irish. That is a dangerous statement to make and one I totally disagree with.

As an Irishman who lives abroad, I think voting rights for non-resident Irish citizens is a seriously retarded idea. Why? Because a large number of Irish citizens abroad are citizens by virtue of jus sanguinis and have never even step foot in Ireland, nor have their parents much of the time.

The idea of giving political representation to a bunch of Irish-Americans who were donating money to the RA only a few years ago, with their dated and romantic notions of a country that are completely divorced from the modern Republic of Ireland, is one that would fill me with dread - but not as much as if I were still living in Ireland and had to live with the consequences of such representation.

Voting Rights For Irish Born Living Abroad

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