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Voting Rights For Irish Born Living Abroad

2

Comments

  • #52
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    How many lies do you intend to tell in one thread?
    Having destroyed your assertion that there aren't many people out there entitled to vote in Irish elections if they chose, now I'm faced with this utter falsehood.
    It demonstrates the lack of validity for your argument when all you can offer is lies to support it.

    Cavehill Red, I have already warned you to cool it on this thread. Dont post on it again. Accusing other posters of lying is against the charter, which I suggest you take a look at before posting in this forum again.

    If you have any questions, take it to PM.

    SSR


  • #53
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    jank wrote: »
    E.g. If you have lived and worked (;)) in Ireland during the past 15 years and you are an Irish born Citizen, you can have a vote. Past that time your voting rights expire..

    Excuse me?? You might want to rephrase that. Because you seem to be implying that citizens born outside Ireland will be excluded. Are you proposing a dual-level citizenship based on place of birth?


  • #54
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Please identify for me someone in Ireland who pays zero tax. There aren't any.
    This is Ireland. We are, despite rumours to the contrary, a sovereign nation. What other countries do is not of concern.
    The USA demands tax returns from all its overseas citizens in return for the right to suffrage. I see no reason why Irish ex-pats should enjoy influence over somewhere they do not live without, as residents do, paying taxes towards the state.


    Based on 2009 tax data about 770,000 earned less then 17,000euros. All of them paid little or no income tax due to various tax credits. In fact the average tax rate of the above group was 0.5%. So based on these numbers some of them would not be allowed vote according to your belief that the right to vote should be contingent on paying tax.

    Personally as I have pointed out elsewhere I prefer to look on Irish born citizens living abroad in a postive light and as a group of talented people who can bring many positives to the table and help in many ways to rebuild and grow our country. I think already the government recognizes this through the Global Irish Network and other initiatives aimed at getting the Irish abroad involved economically in the country. I support and think these initiatives are good ideas but right now they only touch the surface potential given how big a role emigration has and sadly is playing in our country. Encouraging these Irish especially those many who have achieved success in various fields to use their contacts and expertise to help Ireland can be a massive benefit to Ireland. Giving those Irish born living abroad a true and full voice in Ireland by having say an ex pat constituency which they vote for would help encourage their participation and willingness to help as well as giving them rightfully a voice that reflects and represents their contributions.

    Currently the Irish government approach sadly is very negative in it's message. Put up the money and then shut up. I say give the ex pats their own constituency within the Dail. Give them a say in how their contributions to Ireland are used. Allow them to be a positive force in Ireland.


  • #55
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    eire4 wrote: »
    I prefer to look on Irish born citizens living abroad in a postive light
    .

    This is the elephant in the room. Why is this thread repeatedly referring to Irish-born as though they are different to Irish citizens could someone explain??


  • #56
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    MadsL wrote: »
    This is the elephant in the room. Why is this thread repeatedly referring to Irish-born as though they are different to Irish citizens could someone explain??

    Because there are millions of people in the US with an Irish-born grandparent who could potentially qualify for citizenship. So I think there is some sense that in order to have voting rights, there needs to be a more recent, tangible connection to Ireland than the fact that your granddad left Clare 80 years ago.


  • #57
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    Because there are millions of people in the US with an Irish-born grandparent who could potentially qualify for citizenship.


    Keyword, potentially. There are are also a hell of a lot of Irish citizens who were born elsewhere. I know at least three who were born abroad and now live in Ireland.
    southsiderosie wrote: »
    So I think there is some sense that in order to have voting rights, there needs to be a more recent, tangible connection to Ireland than the fact that your granddad left Clare 80 years ago.

    I agree. But being born in Ireland no longer makes you a citizen, we had a rather shameful referendum on that. Surely a better definition of a "a more recent, tangible connection" would be a PPS number and a tax record. Otherwise you give voting rights to a person who left Ireland at six months of age and denying them to someone who paid 30 years of taxes.


  • #58
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    Mexico and the Philippines have to let their ex-pats vote because such as huge percentage of their GDP comes from remittances - and even then, in Mexico it was an extremely contentious issue, especially since it was essentially a one-party state until 2000.

    I believe that Italy and a few other countries with a history of emigration have "emigrants seats" in the national legislature - so expats can vote, but only for the set-aside representatives. This way, they do have a representative voice, but they can't 'swamp' the system, because the presence of expat reps is not proportional to the expat population.

    Not sure about now but historcially as I mentioned huge ammount of capital was sent back to ireland but these emmigrants got nothing in return.
    Having a consituenvy for ex-pats would be an acceptable solution as well. At least give these people a voice. I am glad you are actually discussing how such a system could be implemented rather then taking the most extreme case of how bad a decision this could become.

    I get the "fear" out there that if we introduced voting from abroad, that the entire system would be turned upside down. I get that. But what we have now is no-where suitable for a 21st century western democracy. We should be talking about this now, not in 5-10 years time when we want to attract back those that left when things got bad. We don't even get a say in who the president is and that is totally ceremonial. But there will always be naysayers. The Bull McCabe is alive and well!


  • #59
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    jank wrote: »
    Not sure about now but historcially as I mentioned huge ammount of capital was sent back to ireland but these emmigrants got nothing in return.
    Having a consituenvy for ex-pats would be an acceptable solution as well. At least give these people a voice. I am glad you are actually discussing how such a system could be implemented rather then taking the most extreme case of how bad a decision this could become.

    I get the "fear" out there that if we introduced voting from abroad, that the entire system would be turned upside down. I get that. But what we have now is no-where suitable for a 21st century western democracy. We should be talking about this now, not in 5-10 years time when we want to attract back those that left when things got bad. We don't even get a say in who the president is and that is totally ceremonial. But there will always be naysayers. The Bull McCabe is alive and well!


    I wonder is some of that fear not generated by the corrupt politcians who have brought Ireland to it's current sorry economic state. They fear a backlash.

    But given the role historically Ireland's emigrants have played and can potentially continue to play in rebuilding our country I find it hard to see how creating an ex pat constituency for which the Irish born citizens living abroad would vote for can be anything other then a major plus for Ireland. Certainly there is no way and no suggestion by anyone of some swamping of home based voters.


  • #60
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    eire4 wrote: »
    But given the role historically Ireland's emigrants have played and can potentially continue to play in rebuilding our country I find it hard to see how creating an ex pat constituency for which the Irish born citizens living abroad would vote for can be anything other then a major plus for Ireland. Certainly there is no way and no suggestion by anyone of some swamping of home based voters.


    Fine, but let's nip this 'Irish-born' crap in the bud. I can see that phrase becoming the new 'non-national'.


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  • #61
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    MadsL wrote: »
    Fine, but let's nip this 'Irish-born' crap in the bud. I can see that phrase becoming the new 'non-national'.

    What would you propose?


  • #62
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    I already did, PPS number issued and a valid tax record.

    In fact PPS number should do it...if you don't already have one issued.
    If you are Irish you will need to bring the following:
    Birth Certificate issued by the General Registrars Office (GRO) or the old Long Form Birth Certificate

    and
    Photographic ID such as your Passport or Driving Licence

    and
    Evidence of address such as a Household Bill in your name.
    (If you present an Irish Passport but were born abroad you should bring either your "Certificate of registration of a foreign birth" or birth certificate from your country of birth)

    http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW100/Pages/HowToGetAPPSNo.aspx

    That should mean that any emigrees keep their vote, and any passport holders without any form of real connection (residence period or tax record) are excluded.


  • #63
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    actually, thats a prefect way of expanding the voter base to emmigrants (and other irish citizens abroad) with a valid an real interest in 26 counties affairs.
    Only someone who has lived in the "republic" at some stage will have a PPS number.

    And only someone who has lived in the republic is as a rule to have a deep interest in what happens with regard to social and economic affairs and can make an informed decision at the ballot box.
    (you only have to look at how clueless Gerry Adams was at the beginning of his stint down south to realise how clueless even the most "irish" of people can be on 26 counties matters when the details and nuances of it never affected or interested them before) **

    The more I have thought about it over the past few years, a system like in Germany that only citizens with a proven residence in the homeland at some stage of their life can vote when abroad.

    What was missing for Irish people was a means of proof.
    The PPS though is a perfect means of proof!


    ** Those in deepest south armagh/ south fermanagh are well clued in to 26county matters but they are a small minority of the million+ irish passport holders who have never lived in the state.


  • #64
    Irishheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15 ✭Irishheart


    If still and Irish citizen carrying Irish passport then you should be allowed vote in your home country no matter where you are.
    One day they may come back.
    So what do the anti Irish voting outside of their country think.They should pay for the right to vote?
    I thought voting was a freedom.:rolleyes:


  • #65
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Irishheart wrote: »
    If still and Irish citizen carrying Irish passport then you should be allowed vote in your home country no matter where you are.
    One day they may come back.
    So what do the anti Irish voting outside of their country think.They should pay for the right to vote?
    I thought voting was a freedom.:rolleyes:
    strange post. Maybe do a preview the next time?

    Anyhow, this here irish person abroad thinks Irish abroad who have at some stage lived in the 26 counties should be entitled to keep the vote they had at home when moving abroad.

    the pps nr reference wasnt a suggestion to continue remiting taxes from abroad but was the simple fact that the PPS nr is your concrete evidence as to whether someone has lived in "Ireland" in the past at some stage as the swathes of 2nd generation emmigrants and older would not have it so would not be entitled to vote.


  • #66
    Irishheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15 ✭Irishheart


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    strange post. Maybe do a preview the next time?

    Anyhow, this here irish person abroad thinks Irish abroad who have at some stage lived in the 26 counties should be entitled to keep the vote they had at home when moving abroad.

    the pps nr reference wasnt a suggestion to continue remiting taxes from abroad but was the simple fact that the PPS nr is your concrete evidence as to whether someone has lived in "Ireland" in the past at some stage as the swathes of 2nd generation emmigrants and older would not have it so would not be entitled to vote.

    Well to be honest i dont think second generation Irish should vote in Ireland unless they move here or take Irish passport like dual citizenship (and i highly doubt alot would go to much trouble for it).
    No i have heard people complain that since no longer paying tax in Ireland why should they get to vote.On top of the ludicrous idea that they left because they wanted to so abandoned Ireland,so shouldnt have right.They should have right to vote to swing country to way they wish with said vote as still Irish citizens,and paying tax does not make it any more a right then person who isn't paying tax.People on social welfare have right to vote to.

    P.S this here Irish person part mean.Most Irish people would be happy with Irish abroad voting,as its a free thing not something that is to be paid for right of being a citizen shouldnt end because you had to move countries.


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  • #67
    celtictiger32
    Registered Users Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭celtictiger32


    personally i think the votes should be kept to irish citizens actually in the country, i understand many people have left over the years through hardship etc but a lot of us still remained.

    also someone said earlier that they thought voting was a freedom not always the case some countries fine people who do not vote i think australia implements this law if im not mistaken i think something similar should be introduced here.


  • #68
    Ozymandius2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    I'm sorry but I cannot support people who don't pay taxes to Ireland voting in Ireland. Even the Irish unemployed pay indirect taxes.


  • #69
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Irishheart wrote: »
    Well to be honest i dont think second generation Irish should vote in Ireland unless they move here or take Irish passport like dual citizenship (and i highly doubt alot would go to much trouble for it).<snip>
    absolutely ! Or as I suggested, at least have lived in the state for a period (proved by possession of a PPS nr) so they have an appreciation for whats going on.

    Just listening to RTEs coverage of the latest referendum (.. in my office in Germany, indeed us abroad have no clue about whats going on so cant be trusted to vote with an informed opinion.)

    One of the pundits put down the low turnout to the shambles that is the electoral register. People moved and not transferred onto the register where they now live, or folks who have emigrated haven't been stripped of their vote yet. The entire basis of democracy in Ireland is already banjaxed.

    So how is that relevant you might think!
    In general elections the number of seats is dependent on the number of people registered to vote in a constituency. So on that front the system currently is flawed as folks living elsewhere in Ireland or abroad but not in the position to turn up at the polls are skewing the nr of TDs in areas (and depriving other areas of TDs).

    Or more relevant to this thread.
    If you read the constitutional review on the possibility of citizens abroad voting their main argument against emigrants voting is that every last vote counts so extra folks abroad voting could decide a local TD and that the system is representative of the locality so you cant have people from outside skewing it.

    But if ALREADY folks now living outside the constituency are deciding either directly or indirectly the results of elections/ shape of the parliament, then the main argument to taking the vote from Irish emigrants abroad falls on its face.


  • #70
    Ozymandius2011
    Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    I disagree with this for a couple of reasons:

    - They are not paying taxes to the Irish state. Even the Irish unemployed are paying taxes when you include indirect taxes like VAT.

    - They are not directly effected by the decisions made by the politicians yet want the right to elect them. That constitutes seeking rights without responsibilities.

    - Where dual-citizenship applies, ther is a potential conflict of loyalty.


  • #71
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    a simple amswer, to a simple question......the irish abroad who cannot vote in their host country...should have a vote in the home country.......

    nobody should have two votes.......and nobody should have no vote.......


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  • #72
    Feathers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    As has been mentioned, if you look to the likes of France where you have a number of seats for non-resident citizens. Image if the Dáil had 3 seats for citizens abroad (1% of seats for 20% of the electorate if you say 800,000 abroad & 3.1 electorate at the moment).

    People are mentioning having to live with the consequences of your vote. The last thing the political parties want is voting for ex-pats, because they can't promise to fill in the potholes at the end of the road. To sway a vote, it would have to be ideological rather than a quick fix. Surely that is only good for Ireland?

    & one of the guys saying even his brother abroad thought he shouldn't have a vote. But surely in that case, he wouldn't bother voting. If I were to vote in London, I'd have to take a half-day from work & travel to get to the embassy during office hours. & if there was a fee to do so I'd happily pay it.

    I think in generally, the people who would make that effort are more informed about politics at home that a lot of people who go out & vote each time.


  • #73
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    If someone is forced to leave Ireland due to the incompetence of the government should they not have a say in colouring the political landscape in such a way that may enable them to return, as is their right?

    Most people are ran out rather than left Ireland in the lurch or some other such nonsense.
    Should an unemployed person with little or no prospects tough it out on the dole for a few years or seek employment elsewhere? That's an option regarding survival and quality of life put to most people who emigrate based on politically driven economics. The case could be made that those people have a voice that needs to be heard just as and if not more that those of us who thankfully are not put in that position.

    There's a vast difference between somebody backpacking through south asia for a year or two and someone working abroad. You'll find a lot will move back if the economy improves as they have done in the past.
    If we are shunning those who leave we should also be apologising because they had to.

    I would suggest those abroad can vote but possibly put a five or six year limit on the right.


  • #74
    celtictiger32
    Registered Users Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭celtictiger32


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    If someone is forced to leave Ireland due to the incompetence of the government should they not have a say in colouring the political landscape in such a way that may enable them to return, as is their right?

    Most people are ran out rather than left Ireland in the lurch or some other such nonsense.
    Should an unemployed person with little or no prospects tough it out on the dole for a few years or seek employment elsewhere? That's an option regarding survival and quality of life put to most people who emigrate based on politically driven economics. The case could be made that those people have a voice that needs to be heard just as and if not more that those of us who thankfully are not put in that position.

    There's a vast difference between somebody backpacking through south asia for a year or two and someone working abroad. You'll find a lot will move back if the economy improves as they have done in the past.
    If we are shunning those who leave we should also be apologising because they had to.

    I would suggest those abroad can vote but possibly put a five or six year limit on the right.

    no they shouldnt, many of us stayed here and took it on the chin while they left the country


  • #75
    Feathers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    celtictiger32 wrote: »
    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    If someone is forced to leave Ireland due to the incompetence of the government should they not have a say in colouring the political landscape in such a way that may enable them to return, as is their right?

    Most people are ran out rather than left Ireland in the lurch or some other such nonsense.
    Should an unemployed person with little or no prospects tough it out on the dole for a few years or seek employment elsewhere? That's an option regarding survival and quality of life put to most people who emigrate based on politically driven economics. The case could be made that those people have a voice that needs to be heard just as and if not more that those of us who thankfully are not put in that position.

    There's a vast difference between somebody backpacking through south asia for a year or two and someone working abroad. You'll find a lot will move back if the economy improves as they have done in the past.
    If we are shunning those who leave we should also be apologising because they had to.

    I would suggest those abroad can vote but possibly put a five or six year limit on the right.

    no they shouldnt, many of us stayed here and took it on the chin while they left the country

    Many people stayed and had it easy also & many others left to send money home. You do realise that if everyone stayed there'd be an even worse recession?


  • #76
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    celtictiger32 wrote: »
    no they shouldnt, many of us stayed here and took it on the chin while they left the country

    I think your post is pretty ridiculous and what does taking it on the chin entail? Signing on, losing your home, getting into debt, all the while with a brave smile on your face?

    It's well documented that in the 50's and 60's it was Irish working abroad sending money home which kept many working class households afloat.


  • #77
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    I think your post is pretty ridiculous and what does taking it on the chin entail? Signing on, losing your home, getting into debt, all the while with a brave smile on your face?

    It's well documented that in the 50's and 60's it was Irish working abroad sending money home which kept many working class households afloat.


    While today the Irish government has no problem looking to influential Irish people abroad to invest in Ireland through companies they own or run or use their influence to get other companies to invest in Ireland. As well as the many Irish who send money home or who even help with Irish exports by buying Irish products abroad.

    I firmly believe that Ireland needs to make a constituency for the Irish living abroad. Those Irish would then register and vote at an embassy or consulate and we would have say 3 TD's in the Dail representing that Irish abroad constituency. This would I believe bring a new positive dynamic into Irish politics and empower many Irish living abroad to directly become more involved. I think we miss out in Ireland as many of our talented people leave to find a better standard of living elsewhere. We need to embrace them not shun them or use them as the government does.


  • #78
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    No they should not ....unless they are to return within six months

    The reason is serious why should someone who does not live under the consequences or regime that emerges be able to vote.

    If you don't live here then you should not be able to vote.

    Regardless of where you are born.

    The only exception being the armed forces serving abroad as they are ruled by the regime in power.

    But no not those who have left.

    Irish immigrants don't accpet this ....leaving your country..is leaving your country....you can keep contacts...but it is a sacrifice

    Graduates leaving have taken the tax investment in their education and because of the Govt inability to provide them with a good enough living have taken the rewards of this education abroad.

    We hope some day they return.

    But it is unlikely...THAT is the main reason Irish born living outside Ireland should not be allowed vote...the chances of them returning are slim...

    This has always been hard for Irish people to accept...but their children will be born abroad will not be Irish (unless brought back and raised here)...just because they have an Irish passport does not one Irish.

    It's very harsh given the current situation...but there you have it ...when you leave Ireland you leave more than you might at first realize...

    You leave behind your children's Irish legacy....

    I am considering a move myself...what holds me back is the faact thatmy rights as a citizen would be gone ...also if i had children...they would not be Irish...

    And yes we living here are sticking it out and i would not want those living abroad to have a vote unless they return.

    I got a free Uni degree from this country .......if i choose to leave i am aware of the implications

    Those who have lived abroad many years are often very separated from the current Irish life culture and politics ..rememberthe boom years when those who lived abroad returned how different they where and how different it seemed to them...


    Abanoned is a harsh word ..but it is the feeling of many here... you abanoned us by leaving ..the country abandoned you

    We have abandoned each other....it can only be rememdied by them returning

    It would cause resentment ...and distrust.....here anyway....we leave with the austerity you vote in....or we live with the unstabilty you vote in..NO

    If you are Irish born and live here then you get to vote...otherwise no ...

    And to be honest it has been clear that THIS time around Ireland has been receiving little help from abroad.....as those of Irish descent living in other countries want to contribute to their new country which is right and good and as it should be....you give most to where you live

    And it is not fair to ask these people to send money home ...and not right to be honest..

    I think the main issue is that they are not going to come home...

    Also other countries giving this right to people is irrelevant....they do not have the numbers where it could make such difference

    If it were to happen i would put a one year time limit on it and no more....buti wouldnot be in favour of it

    And i am a person considering the move


  • #79
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    Also ..most this time around are not sending money home but spending it, they are a totally different generation.

    Infact i have heard of parents here sending money to their celtic tiger cubs abroad..

    It would be intersting to actually see figures of how much people send home.

    Also that is to their own families even if they are sending money.

    It is your duty to provide for family.

    But to be honest most stories in the media convey the impression that this generation are spending their disposable income much like they did here and not saving.

    As for buying Irish products (i would also like to see figures of this) well Kerrygold is popular with Germans...i mean other nationalities buy it too

    The expat market for Irish products/News etc..i don't know that it is that large ..is it???

    I mean i think most of them simply want to integrate really..

    Maybe i am wrong ...but you don't see much expat demand for Irish newspapers or TV
    Or even expat stuff on youtube...maybe i am not looking ..but i think it might be an overstated demand


  • #80
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    Also American expats still have to pat income tax to America despite living outside the U.S...thats what gives them the right to vote

    If Irish expats were prepared to pay Irish income tax then yes...they should have the right to vote...


  • #81
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    eire4 wrote: »
    While today the Irish government has no problem looking to influential Irish people abroad to invest in Ireland through companies they own or run or use their influence to get other companies to invest in Ireland. As well as the many Irish who send money home or who even help with Irish exports by buying Irish products abroad.

    I firmly believe that Ireland needs to make a constituency for the Irish living abroad. Those Irish would then register and vote at an embassy or consulate and we would have say 3 TD's in the Dail representing that Irish abroad constituency. This would I believe bring a new positive dynamic into Irish politics and empower many Irish living abroad to directly become more involved. I think we miss out in Ireland as many of our talented people leave to find a better standard of living elsewhere. We need to embrace them not shun them or use them as the government does.

    Absolutely ridiculous they cannot affect change in the country you live in whats the point??

    I think the 'help' the Irish dispora gives is overstated...Irish Americans help Irish Americans....the dont provide jobs here

    And the only reason American expats can vote is that they still have to pay income tax to America when living overseas or they lose their citizenship!

    They are often doubly taxed until they give up citizenship (but it is actuall illegal to give up citizenship to avoid taxes)

    Unclesam is under NO illusion ofwhat makes one American ....your contribution in income tax and if you don't pay it not only do you not get voting rights ..but you lose citizenship or face prosecution

    So maybe we dont treat our dispora so bad after all huh??

    http://www.escapeartist.com/efam5/expat_tax_2.html

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47063487/ns/business-personal_finance/t/us-taxes-cost-some-expatriates-their-citizenship/#.T-A1FJhRKSo


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  • #82
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    If someone is forced to leave Ireland due to the incompetence of the government should they not have a say in colouring the political landscape in such a way that may enable them to return, as is their right?

    Most people are ran out rather than left Ireland in the lurch or some other such nonsense.
    Should an unemployed person with little or no prospects tough it out on the dole for a few years or seek employment elsewhere? That's an option regarding survival and quality of life put to most people who emigrate based on politically driven economics. The case could be made that those people have a voice that needs to be heard just as and if not more that those of us who thankfully are not put in that position.

    There's a vast difference between somebody backpacking through south asia for a year or two and someone working abroad. You'll find a lot will move back if the economy improves as they have done in the past.
    If we are shunning those who leave we should also be apologising because they had to.

    I would suggest those abroad can vote but possibly put a five or six year limit on the right.

    that's BS, nobody is FORCED out of the country.
    there's nobody rounding them up and forcing them onto a plane.
    every Irish citizen who leaves the country does so of their own will.
    they know exactly what rights they're going to lose when they leave.


  • #83
    hardCopy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭hardCopy


    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    Absolutely ridiculous they cannot affect change in the country you live in whats the point??

    I think the 'help' the Irish dispora gives is overstated...Irish Americans help Irish Americans....the dont provide jobs here

    And the only reason American expats can vote is that they still have to pay income tax to America when living overseas or they lose their citizenship!

    They are often doubly taxed until they give up citizenship (but it is actuall illegal to give up citizenship to avoid taxes)

    Unclesam is under NO illusion ofwhat makes one American ....your contribution in income tax and if you don't pay it not only do you not get voting rights ..but you lose citizenship or face prosecution

    So maybe we dont treat our dispora so bad after all huh??

    http://www.escapeartist.com/efam5/expat_tax_2.html

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47063487/ns/business-personal_finance/t/us-taxes-cost-some-expatriates-their-citizenship/#.T-A1FJhRKSo

    It's also extremely difficult to relinquish citizenship and if you are still a US citizen when you die they will demand estate tax from you beneficiaries (much higher than Irish estate tax)


  • #84
    Feathers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    No they should not ....unless they are to return within six months
    ...

    I think the main issue is that they are not going to come home...

    ...

    If it were to happen i would put a one year time limit on it and no more....buti wouldnot be in favour of it

    Even within your own post you're buckling under the pressure, by the end of the discussion you'll be saying '10 years, but that's it — not a day more!' :D

    I don't know if you can say, "their chances of coming back are slim". Sure, it's a recession, but there are still people who've gone abroad for a year or two for study who've every intention of coming back.

    You've others who might be on a temporary transfer in work to upskill — If you're working for a multi-national, they could send you to another office.

    Refusing people in these scenarios a vote is only encouraging them to stay abroad. The likes of Seán Sherlock scaring off FDI in the internet sector for instance could well have an effect on whether you'd get a job back here if you're working in web industries.
    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    Also American expats still have to pat income tax to America despite living outside the U.S...thats what gives them the right to vote

    If Irish expats were prepared to pay Irish income tax then yes...they should have the right to vote...

    Americans only have to pay tax up to the balance of what they would pay if they were in America, discounting any tax they've already paid on those earning in the country of residence. For most people, this isn't going to make a huge amount of difference one way or the other.

    For example, if Ireland brough that in, I would have to pay little or nothing living in the UK, as our tax bands are the same (possibly a 1% difference on the lower rate, IIRC).
    the groutch wrote: »
    that's BS, nobody is FORCED out of the country.
    there's nobody rounding them up and forcing them onto a plane.
    every Irish citizen who leaves the country does so of their own will.
    they know exactly what rights they're going to lose when they leave.

    In 1970s, no-one forced women to get married. There was no-one rounding them up and forcing them into a church. Every Irish women who got married did so of their own will. They know exactly what rights they were going to lose when they did so.

    So… it's perfectly reasonable that women can't work in the public sector after marriage? You're position may be OK, but your logic leaves a lot to be desired.


  • #85
    Feathers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    Also other countries giving this right to people is irrelevant....they do not have the numbers where it could make such difference

    You do realise that what's important isn't the number of citizens eligible to vote from abroad, but the constituency boundaries?

    If like in France, you have an expatriate constituency, it wouldn't matter if you've 1bn Irish abroad: if there's 3 seats in that constituency (for example), those abroad can elect 1% of the Dáil — no more, no less.


  • #86
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    Feathers wrote: »
    You do realise that what's important isn't the number of citizens eligible to vote from abroad, but the constituency boundaries?

    If like in France, you have an expatriate constituency, it wouldn't matter if you've 1bn Irish abroad: if there's 3 seats in that constituency (for example), those abroad can elect 1% of the Dáil — no more, no less.

    Very good point Feathers. It is disappointing that some do not see the benefits of bringing the global Irish nation so to speak closer together to further the cause of our country at home.


  • #87
    heyjude
    Registered Users Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭heyjude


    If you are advocating the vote only for Irish born citizens living abroad, then you are advocating the creation of two separate types of Irish citizen, one of whom can vote in Irish elections and one of which couldn't. So in the current Ireland football team, most would have Irish voting rights and some due to their place of birth wouldn't, yet all are considered Irish. I would imagine that the creation of such a right for some non-resident citizens and not for others, would be challenged in the courts.
    Feathers wrote: »
    You do realise that what's important isn't the number of citizens eligible to vote from abroad, but the constituency boundaries?

    If like in France, you have an expatriate constituency, it wouldn't matter if you've 1bn Irish abroad: if there's 3 seats in that constituency (for example), those abroad can elect 1% of the Dáil — no more, no less.

    But in Ireland, irrespective of constituency, there is a constitutional requirement for one TD per 20,000-30,000 people, so its hard to see how they could create a situation where for example, 3 TDs were supposed to represent perhaps a million citizens abroad. Surely that would be challenged too, as being unfair. The actual constituency boundary doesn't matter, what would matter is how many TDs were to be elected to represent this new Irish born exiles constituency.

    One thing that you should ponder in supporting this idea though is that, for most of the last 20 years we've had coalition governments with slim majorities, so how would you fancy handing the balance of power to a TD living in Sydney and elected by Irish citizens living in Australia or wherever ? and given that their constituents wouldn't be Irish taxpayers, would there not be a real danger of them seeking and getting concessions that appeal to their voters such as free calls home, grants paid for by the Irish government for their children to attend university in Australia or in a more extreme case, free flights home to Ireland ? Independent TDs have already got a huge list of promises fulfilled for their support for past governments, but at least the beneficiaries were taxpayers and the money was spent here, that wouldn't be the case with Irish voters living and working abroad.

    As for Ireland being the only country in Europe that doesn't allow its citizens abroad vote in elections, much of that is due to the fact that in general the countries with the most citizens abroad, tend to have large populations, so the emigrant vote wouldn't unduly influence the overall election result, but adding 800,000 Irish born voters onto our register of electors especially if that had the same representation as irish resident voters, would be a huge factor in determining any future government. I cannot believe that having a government determined by a group that do not have to live with the consequences of their vote is healthy.


  • #88
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    Feathers wrote: »
    Even within your own post you're buckling under the pressure, by the end of the discussion you'll be saying '10 years, but that's it — not a day more!' :D

    I don't know if you can say, "their chances of coming back are slim". Sure, it's a recession, but there are still people who've gone abroad for a year or two for study who've every intention of coming back.

    You've others who might be on a temporary transfer in work to upskill — If you're working for a multi-national, they could send you to another office.

    Refusing people in these scenarios a vote is only encouraging them to stay abroad. The likes of Seán Sherlock scaring off FDI in the internet sector for instance could well have an effect on whether you'd get a job back here if you're working in web industries.



    Americans only have to pay tax up to the balance of what they would pay if they were in America, discounting any tax they've already paid on those earning in the country of residence. For most people, this isn't going to make a huge amount of difference one way or the other.

    For example, if Ireland brough that in, I would have to pay little or nothing living in the UK, as our tax bands are the same (possibly a 1% difference on the lower rate, IIRC).



    In 1970s, no-one forced women to get married. There was no-one rounding them up and forcing them into a church. Every Irish women who got married did so of their own will. They know exactly what rights they were going to lose when they did so.

    So… it's perfectly reasonable that women can't work in the public sector after marriage? You're position may be OK, but your logic leaves a lot to be desired.
    No Americans pay full tax to Uncle Sam and are often doubly taxed they have tax treaties in some countries which allow Amrica to collect tax.

    Unless your taxes come here you should not be allowed vote here..unless you live here you should not be allowed live here.

    No one forced the men to get married they did and retained their rights ...i am not suggestig SOME expats lose the right to vote...ALL ....it is nt discrimmination...

    The married men made the same choice but kept their rights ...that made it discrimination

    It was nothing to do with getting married it was being born female that the GOVt had an issue with..

    And of all the ridiculous arguements that has got to be the one of the worst.

    Anyway it is not going to happen so i am not worried.

    It would be undemocratic they do not live with the consequences as we do.

    And if you think anyone who leaves has much of a chance of returning you are very naive ..this is much worse than a recession.

    It is global economic meltdown.
    It would not be popular and i could see Irish at home resenting and getting angry with expats..

    It would cause bad feeling.

    I hate the term 'global Irish' rubbish....

    We dont want you to champion our cause ....we want to determine our future here

    There is no 'global Irish nation'.......that is for tourists and plastic paddies

    Let the country determine it's future...

    We have enough absantee Landlords in brussels


  • #89
    Feathers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    heyjude wrote: »
    But in Ireland, irrespective of constituency, there is a constitutional requirement for one TD per 20,000-30,000 people, so its hard to see how they could create a situation where for example, 3 TDs were supposed to represent perhaps a million citizens abroad. Surely that would be challenged too, as being unfair. The actual constituency boundary doesn't matter, what would matter is how many TDs were to be elected to represent this new Irish born exiles constituency.

    That's a good point alright, presumably to work effectively you'd need a referendum to adjust this. Although internal figures are worked out on the basis of the census; presumably any external ones would have to be worked on a register of electors — would be interesting to see what number of those 800,000 signed-up.
    heyjude wrote: »
    One thing that you should ponder in supporting this idea though is that, for most of the last 20 years we've had coalition governments with slim majorities, so how would you fancy handing the balance of power to a TD living in Sydney and elected by Irish citizens living in Australia or wherever ?

    Well one way one be to do what FG promised when they were running for election — trial it with the presidential election.

    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    No Americans pay full tax to Uncle Sam and are often doubly taxed they have tax treaties in some countries which allow Amrica to collect tax.

    Presume you're saying "No, Americans pay full tax to Uncle Sam", as opposed to agreeing with me. Do you have a link for that?
    Wikipedia wrote:
    The United States taxes citizens and residents on their worldwide income. Citizens and residents living and working outside the U.S. may be entitled to a foreign earned income exclusion that reduces taxable income.[1] For 2010, the maximum exclusion is $91,500 per taxpayer.[2] In addition, the taxpayer may exclude housing expenses in excess of 16% of this maximum (i.e., $40.11 per day in 2010), but with limits. The exclusion is available only for wages or self employment income earned for services performed outside the U.S. The exclusion is claimed on IRS Form 2555.

    — "Foreign earned income exclusion "
    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    No one forced the men to get married they did and retained their rights ...i am not suggestig SOME expats lose the right to vote...ALL ....it is nt discrimmination...

    The married men made the same choice but kept their rights ...that made it discrimination

    It was nothing to do with getting married it was being born female that the GOVt had an issue with..

    And of all the ridiculous arguements that has got to be the one of the worst.

    You obviously missed my point completely — i.e. just because someone was aware of an outcome of their action in advance, doesn't make that outcome fair and right. Yes, people know they won't be able to vote if they leave, but using that to say that they therefore shouldn't be allowed to vote isn't logically sound.

    Why should it be this way? "Because it's always been this way". Yes, my argument is the ridiculous one, obviously.

    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    And if you think anyone who leaves has much of a chance of returning you are very naive ..this is much worse than a recession.

    And if you think the likes of the bank guarantee haven't had a negative impact on people's prospects of returning, you're very naïve.

    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    I hate the term 'global Irish' rubbish....

    We dont want you to champion our cause ....we want to determine our future here

    There is no 'global Irish nation'.......that is for tourists and plastic paddies

    Let the country determine it's future...

    We have enough absantee Landlords in brussels

    & that's the type of small-minded attitude that's wrecking the country. Rather than having the likes of Craig Barrett from Intel serving on a state board free of charge, you'd prefer have some FG backbencher getting a perk for voting the party line.

    That's not self-determination, that's self-delusion. :rolleyes:


  • #90
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    It is sad to see some real shots been taken at Irish citizens living abroad calling them plastic paddies etc. An Irishman or woman is Irish no matter where he or she lives. The implication behind such sentiments is that Irish people living abroad are inferior and not really Irish. That is a dangerous statement to make and one I totally disagree with.
    I will re state my belief that even more so at this difficult time we as a nation need to look for creative solutions to rebuild our country. One way for me is to try and bring the expert abilities in various fields of the Irish living abroad to bear within different parts of our economy and giving the Irish abroad a voice is empowering and shows a positive confidence in our fellow Irish abroad. If for nothing else we need fresh ideas and fresh looks at our problems as a country as it is.


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  • #91
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    It is sad to see some real shots been taken at Irish citizens living abroad calling them plastic paddies etc. An Irishman or woman is Irish no matter where he or she lives. The implication behind such sentiments is that Irish people living abroad are inferior and not really Irish. That is a dangerous statement to make and one I totally disagree with.
    As an Irishman who lives abroad, I think voting rights for non-resident Irish citizens is a seriously retarded idea. Why? Because a large number of Irish citizens abroad are citizens by virtue of jus sanguinis and have never even step foot in Ireland, nor have their parents much of the time.

    The idea of giving political representation to a bunch of Irish-Americans who were donating money to the RA only a few years ago, with their dated and romantic notions of a country that are completely divorced from the modern Republic of Ireland, is one that would fill me with dread - but not as much as if I were still living in Ireland and had to live with the consequences of such representation.


  • #92
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    eire4 wrote: »
    It is sad to see some real shots been taken at Irish citizens living abroad calling them plastic paddies etc. An Irishman or woman is Irish no matter where he or she lives. The implication behind such sentiments is that Irish people living abroad are inferior and not really Irish. That is a dangerous statement to make and one I totally disagree with.
    I will re state my belief that even more so at this difficult time we as a nation need to look for creative solutions to rebuild our country. One way for me is to try and bring the expert abilities in various fields of the Irish living abroad to bear within different parts of our economy and giving the Irish abroad a voice is empowering and shows a positive confidence in our fellow Irish abroad. If for nothing else we need fresh ideas and fresh looks at our problems as a country as it is.


    Only people BORN and RAISED in Ireland or have lived here for over 5 years are Irish in my mind.

    The plastic paddy whackery has become very exposed in this economic crisis with Ireland being a non subject overseas and only the Plastic paddy whackery of Obama with his Hurley making headlines.

    Plastic Paddies have commodified Irishness...and they have no right to...

    What gives people not born here who don't live here or have not grown up here the right to dictate to people living here ...it is undemocratic .

    If you are talking about Irish who have grown up abroad YES THEY ARE LESS IRISH OR AT LEAST A DIFFERENT TYPE Of IRISH

    Someone asked about US EXPAT TAXES.... http://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/resources/blog/category/the-your-us-expat-taxes-explained-series/

    I started to read through it...got bored...

    The Germans basically run this country now ...and have we heard an outporing of support from paddies abroad..erm no...

    When we voted no to nice and lisbon..did we hear support of our vote from paddies abroad ..erm no...

    The Irish Americans (even those with citizenship) seem totally unaware that German policy is destroying this country's democracy

    Even if you disagree with my politics..you would have to admit ...They are woefully uninformed about Irish politics and what is going on on the ground.

    I have relatives abroad...WHO ARE PROUD TO BE IRISH and where born and raised here and left in their twenties and thirties.....they are not well informed enough about Irish politics to vote ...and whatever you say about Irish living here being uninformed ..well at least theyget literature through the door...and national media coverage etc

    How would you get political literature to all expats ??

    And HOW MUCH WOULD ALL THIS COST???

    Lets be honest ....a lot who have Irish citizenship in America and Britain have little thought for Ireland....it is not on the top of their agenda

    When an Irish election comes ..i want to know voters (whatever their opinion want what is best for Ireland)

    Not what suits American or British politcal views or agendas

    And the record of those Irish abroad you are speaking of interfering in Irish politics has been poor at best.

    Declan Ganley comes to mind......i mean really? And he lives here..

    We have many referenda here..they have been used by expats (Declan Ganely) and those who don't care about Ireland for their own purposes...and they sometimes jar in EU plans or jar American agendas in what they want to sell to Irish Americans in telling them how to vote

    Consider Romney's and Krugmans view of what is going on in Ireland...i mean if those who have Irish citizenship in America where to vote on economic policy what would they be voting on?? Idealism in American politics or what is really going on in Ireland..


    THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE

    Irish abroad could never vote based on what is goig on in Ireland ..only ideals...

    There are huge drawbacks in giving those far removed form a place power over it..we have seen this with the EU and during British rule..

    Youu will not suffer the consequences nor see them...

    Even in your posts it is obvious....your objective is not what is best for Ireland...but some ideal....some 'Irish dispora nation Ideal'....i am certain most people in Ireland would not want it.
    And i am certain i is not best for Ireland and i can see it being abused by those who would give their vote (like Declan Ganley) and voice to causes that have really little to do with Ireland but with other more international agendas..

    Also remember the years whe funding from America went to paramilitaries??? How wrong those people judged the situation??

    Also here is one BIG issue....which makes me suspicious of anyone asking for voting rights for Irish citizens abroad ..someofwhom may not beborn here..

    In the next few years...or at some point..it is likely that the Issue of northern Ireland would come up


    I mean at some point ....and yes Sinn Féin plays lip service ..who knows what will happen....

    But it is likely to happen at some point??

    Is i really wise to have Irish citizens voting abroad on Issues like that??

    Séin Féin would LOVE to up their nationalist numbers for a vote for re-unification for a yes vote ..in the north and here

    And yes what about northern Irish living outside of the North Or South??

    So they would not get to vote in the North but they would here??

    eire 4 if you have been brought up here or live here but live abroad..you don't need a vote to be Irish either you are or you are not..

    And a vote will not make anyone anymore Irish...not if you have not spent time here

    eire4 i dont know if you gre up here or were bornhere or not ...but the attitude that those with official citizenship and have not stepped foot in the country or spent much time here are Irish in the same way as Irish living here is erroneous

    I don't begrudge people their heritage or ethnicity

    But it really bugs me when those of Irish heritage try to shape Ireland into something it is not simply for an Ideal of who they want to be

    And i could see that happening..

    But honestly would Irish abraod even have a clue which way to vote on things like nice or the fiscal treaty???

    And that goes way further than Ireland...

    And they cant know Irishpoliticans like we do here..i mean we get to meet them often

    The foreign media does not even pay much attention to Ireland

    I mean Irish Americans havenot got a clue of the trouble we are in ..nor do they care ..and many of them have Irish citizenship....


  • #93
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    Only people BORN and RAISED in Ireland or have lived here for over 5 years are Irish in my mind.

    The plastic paddy whackery has become very exposed in this economic crisis with Ireland being a non subject overseas and only the Plastic paddy whackery of Obama with his Hurley making headlines.

    Plastic Paddies have commodified Irishness...and they have no right to...

    What gives people not born here who don't live here or have not grown up here the right to dictate to people living here ...it is undemocratic .

    If you are talking about Irish who have grown up abroad YES THEY ARE LESS IRISH OR AT LEAST A DIFFERENT TYPE Of IRISH

    Someone asked about US EXPAT TAXES.... http://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/resources/blog/category/the-your-us-expat-taxes-explained-series/

    I started to read through it...got bored...

    The Germans basically run this country now ...and have we heard an outporing of support from paddies abroad..erm no...

    When we voted no to nice and lisbon..did we hear support of our vote from paddies abroad ..erm no...

    The Irish Americans (even those with citizenship) seem totally unaware that German policy is destroying this country's democracy

    Even if you disagree with my politics..you would have to admit ...They are woefully uninformed about Irish politics and what is going on on the ground.

    I have relatives abroad...WHO ARE PROUD TO BE IRISH and where born and raised here and left in their twenties and thirties.....they are not well informed enough about Irish politics to vote ...and whatever you say about Irish living here being uninformed ..well at least theyget literature through the door...and national media coverage etc

    How would you get political literature to all expats ??

    And HOW MUCH WOULD ALL THIS COST???

    Lets be honest ....a lot who have Irish citizenship in America and Britain have little thought for Ireland....it is not on the top of their agenda

    When an Irish election comes ..i want to know voters (whatever their opinion want what is best for Ireland)

    Not what suits American or British politcal views or agendas

    And the record of those Irish abroad you are speaking of interfering in Irish politics has been poor at best.

    Declan Ganley comes to mind......i mean really? And he lives here..

    We have many referenda here..they have been used by expats (Declan Ganely) and those who don't care about Ireland for their own purposes...and they sometimes jar in EU plans or jar American agendas in what they want to sell to Irish Americans in telling them how to vote

    Consider Romney's and Krugmans view of what is going on in Ireland...i mean if those who have Irish citizenship in America where to vote on economic policy what would they be voting on?? Idealism in American politics or what is really going on in Ireland..


    THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE

    Irish abroad could never vote based on what is goig on in Ireland ..only ideals...

    There are huge drawbacks in giving those far removed form a place power over it..we have seen this with the EU and during British rule..

    Youu will not suffer the consequences nor see them...

    Even in your posts it is obvious....your objective is not what is best for Ireland...but some ideal....some 'Irish dispora nation Ideal'....i am certain most people in Ireland would not want it.
    And i am certain i is not best for Ireland and i can see it being abused by those who would give their vote (like Declan Ganley) and voice to causes that have really little to do with Ireland but with other more international agendas..

    Also remember the years whe funding from America went to paramilitaries??? How wrong those people judged the situation??

    Also here is one BIG issue....which makes me suspicious of anyone asking for voting rights for Irish citizens abroad ..someofwhom may not beborn here..

    In the next few years...or at some point..it is likely that the Issue of northern Ireland would come up


    I mean at some point ....and yes Sinn Féin plays lip service ..who knows what will happen....

    But it is likely to happen at some point??

    Is i really wise to have Irish citizens voting abroad on Issues like that??

    Séin Féin would LOVE to up their nationalist numbers for a vote for re-unification for a yes vote ..in the north and here

    And yes what about northern Irish living outside of the North Or South??

    So they would not get to vote in the North but they would here??

    eire 4 if you have been brought up here or live here but live abroad..you don't need a vote to be Irish either you are or you are not..

    And a vote will not make anyone anymore Irish...not if you have not spent time here

    eire4 i dont know if you gre up here or were bornhere or not ...but the attitude that those with official citizenship and have not stepped foot in the country or spent much time here are Irish in the same way as Irish living here is erroneous

    I don't begrudge people their heritage or ethnicity

    But it really bugs me when those of Irish heritage try to shape Ireland into something it is not simply for an Ideal of who they want to be

    And i could see that happening..

    But honestly would Irish abraod even have a clue which way to vote on things like nice or the fiscal treaty???

    And that goes way further than Ireland...

    And they cant know Irishpoliticans like we do here..i mean we get to meet them often

    The foreign media does not even pay much attention to Ireland

    I mean Irish Americans havenot got a clue of the trouble we are in ..nor do they care ..and many of them have Irish citizenship....


    I have consistently stated in this thread that the idea is to give the vote to Irish born citizens currently living abroad. It is estimated that there are about 800,000 Irish born citizens living abroad at present. So no need for your capitals. I have not said that anybody not born in Ireland should be allowed to vote.

    Please refrain from insulting fellow Irish just because they were raised outside the country. There are many reasons why an Irish person may be raised outside the country be it due to a government posting for a parent or a family moving abroad for a period for a job posting etc. No amount of insults makes them any less Irish then you or me.


    You suggest the Irish living abroad are woefully uninformed. Hmm really. By what measure and in any way it matters not if they are or are not. There are plenty of fingers that could be pointed at many Irish people living in Dublin or where ever for voting without any real grasp of important issues. There is no test of knowledge that must be taken before a person can vote. Besides all that the internet is a wonderful thing which allows anybody to keep right up to date and be well informed on any topic where ever they be in the world. It is up to the individual person as to how they inform themsleves on any issue but a certain level of knowledge is not a requirement for a person to vote. If this was the case a good number of Irish living currently in Ireland would be getting kicked off the voting rolls.

    You seem very concerned about my status so rest assured I am Irish. Not less Irish or different Irish. Just Irish:)
    To answer your question yes Irish citizens living abroad easily can get all the information they need to make an informed decision on which way to vote in say the Nice treaty you mentioned or any other election. As I mentioned the internet and modern commuications is a wonderful thing. It matters not one jot what any foreign media concentrate on. I will also restate as apperently as you say it really bugs you that I am only talking about Irish born citizens living abroad and that if you care to peruse my previous posts on this topic you will see that I have been very consistent in making that statement. The only people in America as you frequently mention the states that are relevant in this issue are Irish born citizens living there. They have no problem getting any informatiuon they need from Irish media sources via the internet be they official, commmercial or independant sources.


  • #94
    Feathers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    eire4 wrote: »
    It is sad to see some real shots been taken at Irish citizens living abroad calling them plastic paddies etc. An Irishman or woman is Irish no matter where he or she lives. The implication behind such sentiments is that Irish people living abroad are inferior and not really Irish. That is a dangerous statement to make and one I totally disagree with.
    I will re state my belief that even more so at this difficult time we as a nation need to look for creative solutions to rebuild our country. One way for me is to try and bring the expert abilities in various fields of the Irish living abroad to bear within different parts of our economy and giving the Irish abroad a voice is empowering and shows a positive confidence in our fellow Irish abroad. If for nothing else we need fresh ideas and fresh looks at our problems as a country as it is.


    Only people BORN and RAISED in Ireland or have lived here for over 5 years are Irish in my mind.

    The plastic paddy whackery has become very exposed in this economic crisis with Ireland being a non subject overseas and only the Plastic paddy whackery of Obama with his Hurley making headlines.

    Plastic Paddies have commodified Irishness...and they have no right to...

    What gives people not born here who don't live here or have not grown up here the right to dictate to people living here ...it is undemocratic .

    If you are talking about Irish who have grown up abroad YES THEY ARE LESS IRISH OR AT LEAST A DIFFERENT TYPE Of IRISH

    Someone asked about US EXPAT TAXES.... http://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/resources/blog/category/the-your-us-expat-taxes-explained-series/

    I started to read through it...got bored...

    The Germans basically run this country now ...and have we heard an outporing of support from paddies abroad..erm no...

    When we voted no to nice and lisbon..did we hear support of our vote from paddies abroad ..erm no...

    The Irish Americans (even those with citizenship) seem totally unaware that German policy is destroying this country's democracy

    Even if you disagree with my politics..you would have to admit ...They are woefully uninformed about Irish politics and what is going on on the ground.

    I have relatives abroad...WHO ARE PROUD TO BE IRISH and where born and raised here and left in their twenties and thirties.....they are not well informed enough about Irish politics to vote ...and whatever you say about Irish living here being uninformed ..well at least theyget literature through the door...and national media coverage etc

    How would you get political literature to all expats ??

    And HOW MUCH WOULD ALL THIS COST???

    Lets be honest ....a lot who have Irish citizenship in America and Britain have little thought for Ireland....it is not on the top of their agenda

    When an Irish election comes ..i want to know voters (whatever their opinion want what is best for Ireland)

    Not what suits American or British politcal views or agendas

    And the record of those Irish abroad you are speaking of interfering in Irish politics has been poor at best.

    Declan Ganley comes to mind......i mean really? And he lives here..

    We have many referenda here..they have been used by expats (Declan Ganely) and those who don't care about Ireland for their own purposes...and they sometimes jar in EU plans or jar American agendas in what they want to sell to Irish Americans in telling them how to vote

    Consider Romney's and Krugmans view of what is going on in Ireland...i mean if those who have Irish citizenship in America where to vote on economic policy what would they be voting on?? Idealism in American politics or what is really going on in Ireland..


    THAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE

    Irish abroad could never vote based on what is goig on in Ireland ..only ideals...

    There are huge drawbacks in giving those far removed form a place power over it..we have seen this with the EU and during British rule..

    Youu will not suffer the consequences nor see them...

    Even in your posts it is obvious....your objective is not what is best for Ireland...but some ideal....some 'Irish dispora nation Ideal'....i am certain most people in Ireland would not want it.
    And i am certain i is not best for Ireland and i can see it being abused by those who would give their vote (like Declan Ganley) and voice to causes that have really little to do with Ireland but with other more international agendas..

    Also remember the years whe funding from America went to paramilitaries??? How wrong those people judged the situation??

    Also here is one BIG issue....which makes me suspicious of anyone asking for voting rights for Irish citizens abroad ..someofwhom may not beborn here..

    In the next few years...or at some point..it is likely that the Issue of northern Ireland would come up


    I mean at some point ....and yes Sinn Féin plays lip service ..who knows what will happen....

    But it is likely to happen at some point??

    Is i really wise to have Irish citizens voting abroad on Issues like that??

    Séin Féin would LOVE to up their nationalist numbers for a vote for re-unification for a yes vote ..in the north and here

    And yes what about northern Irish living outside of the North Or South??

    So they would not get to vote in the North but they would here??

    eire 4 if you have been brought up here or live here but live abroad..you don't need a vote to be Irish either you are or you are not..

    And a vote will not make anyone anymore Irish...not if you have not spent time here

    eire4 i dont know if you gre up here or were bornhere or not ...but the attitude that those with official citizenship and have not stepped foot in the country or spent much time here are Irish in the same way as Irish living here is erroneous

    I don't begrudge people their heritage or ethnicity

    But it really bugs me when those of Irish heritage try to shape Ireland into something it is not simply for an Ideal of who they want to be

    And i could see that happening..

    But honestly would Irish abraod even have a clue which way to vote on things like nice or the fiscal treaty???

    And that goes way further than Ireland...

    And they cant know Irishpoliticans like we do here..i mean we get to meet them often

    The foreign media does not even pay much attention to Ireland

    I mean Irish Americans havenot got a clue of the trouble we are in ..nor do they care ..and many of them have Irish citizenship....


    I'm surprised that your quite happy for all of these phoney plastic Paddles to have citizenship, so long as they don't get the dreaded vote. Do you not consider citizenship important in its own right?


  • #95
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    Feathers wrote: »
    I'm surprised that your quite happy for all of these phoney plastic Paddles to have citizenship, so long as they don't get the dreaded vote. Do you not consider citizenship important in its own right?

    Yes, but happy with the status quo..:)

    They are free to come and live here and then vote.:)


  • #96
    poeticseraphim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    eire4 wrote: »
    I have consistently stated in this thread that the idea is to give the vote to Irish born citizens currently living abroad. It is estimated that there are about 800,000 Irish born citizens living abroad at present. So no need for your capitals. I have not said that anybody not born in Ireland should be allowed to vote.

    Please refrain from insulting fellow Irish just because they were raised outside the country. There are many reasons why an Irish person may be raised outside the country be it due to a government posting for a parent or a family moving abroad for a period for a job posting etc. No amount of insults makes them any less Irish then you or me.


    You suggest the Irish living abroad are woefully uninformed. Hmm really. By what measure and in any way it matters not if they are or are not. There are plenty of fingers that could be pointed at many Irish people living in Dublin or where ever for voting without any real grasp of important issues. There is no test of knowledge that must be taken before a person can vote. Besides all that the internet is a wonderful thing which allows anybody to keep right up to date and be well informed on any topic where ever they be in the world. It is up to the individual person as to how they inform themsleves on any issue but a certain level of knowledge is not a requirement for a person to vote. If this was the case a good number of Irish living currently in Ireland would be getting kicked off the voting rolls.

    You seem very concerned about my status so rest assured I am Irish. Not less Irish or different Irish. Just Irish:)
    To answer your question yes Irish citizens living abroad easily can get all the information they need to make an informed decision on which way to vote in say the Nice treaty you mentioned or any other election. As I mentioned the internet and modern commuications is a wonderful thing. It matters not one jot what any foreign media concentrate on. I will also restate as apperently as you say it really bugs you that I am only talking about Irish born citizens living abroad and that if you care to peruse my previous posts on this topic you will see that I have been very consistent in making that statement. The only people in America as you frequently mention the states that are relevant in this issue are Irish born citizens living there. They have no problem getting any informatiuon they need from Irish media sources via the internet be they official, commmercial or independant sources.

    Information is not what they need ...it's experience

    And saying they are not AS Irish or differently Irish is NOT and insult at all. Why would it be ....LOTS of people are not Irish. Lots of people are not Irish and live here and i would be more willing to give them the vote to be honest if they are permanent residents and pay tax.

    It is not insulting to state the obvious that an Irish citizen raised in London or Boston or Canada or wherever is completely culturally different to me and other Irish brought up in Ireland.

    Infact it would be insulting not to admit those differences.

    And quite frankly ridiculous.

    You may have said Irish born ..but others have said otherwise or infered it.

    And to be honest moving as a baby to elsewhere being brought up there with Irish citizenship would not in my mind give them the right to vote.

    Experiencing the conditions for yourself is not the same to reading it.

    Irish American or whatever seems to be something americans use to identify themselves to each other that is not just white.

    Sorry but it is the way most Irish think.
    Why is it insulting to think of them as less Irish and more American if they were raised there??? Regardless of why it does not change the fact that they were.

    And i am not saying they do not have the right to live here ad the vote..

    Honestly i would rather give the right to vote to those who reside here

    Anyway you did not address what i said about northern Ireland and other stuff never mind.

    It is the essence of democracy to vote where you live .

    Sorry.

    I mean if i move abroad i would not expect the right to vote unless i returned and if i had children abroad i would not expect them to have the right to vote unless they where living here.

    I think it would be unreasonable to expect otherwise.

    I would also think that they should have a right to feel American or English or whatever culture they grew up in and to celebrate that and not radicalise them with a sense of dispora nationalism.

    And i would like perhaps to live abroad..but i would want people living here to soley determine their government as they have to live with it

    If they live in a European


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  • #97
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    You suggest the Irish living abroad are woefully uninformed.
    Often we are. We can read the Web and occasionally visit, but it is hardly being there 'on the ground' as it were and as time goes on and you grow roots abroad, you check what's going on back in the aul sod, less and less - after all, little if any of it will actually affect you.

    And that's me; someone who lives outside Ireland, but previously lived most of his life there. What about those citizens who have never been to Ireland, or have only visited on holidays? How well informed are they?

    You see, when you talk of "800,000 Irish born citizens", I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. Are you talking about 800,000 Irish citizens, born in Ireland who left? Because that is all it can be - otherwise you're talking about 800,000 people born abroad with a right to Irish citizenship, which is not the same - it's not automatic; I was born in Italy, for example, and had to apply, despite my mother having been born and bred in Ireland.

    I could have lived my entire life in Italy, never set foot in Ireland and I'd still be eligible for citizenship, by right of blood. How educated on Irish politics would I be then?

    And I see them all the time; Argentinians with Italian citizenship (despite never having been in Italy or not being able to speak Italian) or South Africans with British citizenship or Americans with Irish citizenship, inherited from a grandparent - they can even pass it on to their grandchildren, with no obligation than anyone in five generations ever travel to Ireland!

    This is one of the problems with giving voting rights on the basis of citizenship alone, when citizenship is based on a principle of jus sanguinis.

    And what is the other reason it's such a bad idea, even for someone like me, to have a non-resident vote? Because I would be exerting political power without suffering the consequences, which is why a registered voter (which is already a flawed system) in Roscommon can't vote for a TD in Dublin.

    If I vote for some loon, who wants to invade NI or leave the EU or whatever and this wrecks the country, that's no skin off my nose - Hell, if it results in Ireland being plunged into a 50-year depression, it's actually good for me, as I'll be able to buy up a holiday home there for next to nothing.

    As I said, it's a stupid idea. Of course citizens should have a vote, but ultimately they also need to be invested in the consequences of that vote and realistically to do that they need to be both citizens and resident.

    And this is from a non-resident Irish citizen.


  • #98
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Often we are. We can read the Web and occasionally visit, but it is hardly being there 'on the ground' as it were and as time goes on and you grow roots abroad,

    Last time I checked there was no education, information or any kind of level of knowledge of the issues required for a person to vote in Ireland. If this were the case we would be getting rid of a lot of Irish living in Ireland off the voting rolls.

    "You see, when you talk of "800,000 Irish born citizens", I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. Are you talking about 800,000 Irish citizens, born in Ireland who left? Because that is all it can be - otherwise you're talking about 800,000 people born abroad with a right to Irish citizenship, which is not the same - it's not automatic;"

    It is estimated that there are currently 800,000approx Irish born citizens currently living abroad. Now obviously if these 800,000 were born in Ireland and now live abroad then the only way they got there was to leave Ireland!


  • #99
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    poeticseraphim wrote: »
    Information is not what they need ...it's experience

    And saying they are not AS Irish or differently Irish is NOT and insult at all. Why would it be ....LOTS of people are not Irish. Lots of people are not Irish and live here and i would be more willing to give them the vote to be honest if they are permanent residents and pay tax.

    It is not insulting to state the obvious that an Irish citizen raised in London or Boston or Canada or wherever is completely culturally different to me and other Irish brought up in Ireland.

    Infact it would be insulting not to admit those differences.

    And quite frankly ridiculous.

    You may have said Irish born ..but others have said otherwise or infered it.

    And to be honest moving as a baby to elsewhere being brought up there with Irish citizenship would not in my mind give them the right to vote.

    Experiencing the conditions for yourself is not the same to reading it.

    Irish American or whatever seems to be something americans use to identify themselves to each other that is not just white.

    Sorry but it is the way most Irish think.
    Why is it insulting to think of them as less Irish and more American if they were raised there??? Regardless of why it does not change the fact that they were.

    And i am not saying they do not have the right to live here ad the vote..

    Honestly i would rather give the right to vote to those who reside here

    Anyway you did not address what i said about northern Ireland and other stuff never mind.

    It is the essence of democracy to vote where you live .

    Sorry.

    I mean if i move abroad i would not expect the right to vote unless i returned and if i had children abroad i would not expect them to have the right to vote unless they where living here.

    I think it would be unreasonable to expect otherwise.

    I would also think that they should have a right to feel American or English or whatever culture they grew up in and to celebrate that and not radicalise them with a sense of dispora nationalism.

    And i would like perhaps to live abroad..but i would want people living here to soley determine their government as they have to live with it

    If they live in a European


    Saying someone is different in their Irishness is indeed not an insult. But that is not what I pointed out. You also suggested some people were not "as" Irish as others and that is indeed an insult.


    I did indeed say Irish born living abroad and others indeed may have inferred otherwise but that is not pertinent here as you were responding to me.

    You may or may not be aware that Ireland's denial of it's native born citizens in terms of voting is not only not the norm it is highly abnormal as voting rights for native born citizens living abroad is allowed in most of the developed world including almost all the EU. So is Ireland now suddenly a bastion of real democracy as we have the "essence" as you called it of democracy in our saying no to Irish born citizens living abroad voting?

    I will state again that having a certain level of knowledge or experience of the issues of the day is not a requirement to vote as if it was then we would need to get rid of a good number of people form the voting rolls who currently live in Ireland.


  • #100
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    eire4 wrote: »
    Last time I checked there was no education, information or any kind of level of knowledge of the issues required for a person to vote in Ireland. If this were the case we would be getting rid of a lot of Irish living in Ireland off the voting rolls.
    Then why were you debating it? My point on being 'informed' is that many Irish citizens abroad have increasingly tenuous connections to Ireland over time; those of us raised in Ireland lose track of what's going on because we're only invested in it in terms of sentiment at best. Other citizens are so only by accident of birth; de facto (and more often than not, de jure), they're citizens of the country where they're resident and have lived their entire lives.

    And how are you going to differentiate between those like me who grew up in Ireland and those who never set foot in Ireland but had an Irish grandparent? Or will you give us both a say in how you live your life?
    It is estimated that there are currently 800,000approx Irish born citizens currently living abroad. Now obviously if these 800,000 were born in Ireland and now live abroad then the only way they got there was to leave Ireland!
    And how many Irish citizens, who were not born and may have never set foot in Ireland, will you give a vote to?


  • #101
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    What if there was a requirement that you had to have residency in Ireland to be able to vote from abroad? I just think it is wrong that someone who is out of the country for school, on a work contract, or some other temporary (i.e. no more than 2 years) situation loses their right to vote - especially since so many people are emigrating because of the incompetence of the last government.

    I get the point that when you have jus sanguinis citizenship laws, you can't give everyone the right to vote, but Ireland is one of the few countries with a long history of emigration that gives emigrants no say whatsoever in the political process. Italy, for example, has several seats in its parliament dedicated to Italians voting from abroad - I think this is a reasonable compromise.


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