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Been to the Zoo lately?

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13

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    #62
    Gummy Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,919 ✭✭✭✭Gummy Panda


    Brian Chilly Ale wrote: »
    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    I think most animals have the mating thing nailed

    Except for the pandas. A species of awkward teenagers.

    Not since panda porn


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    #63
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    bluewolf wrote: »
    well, yeah :confused:

    i was surprised how many species are endangered...

    Were in the fifth mass extinction thanks to man and I dont see it changing anytime soon.


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    #64
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,619 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    The chap who makes a good case for zoos is linked below.

    I can understand why people are opposed to zoos and I certainly don't like to see animals in tiny enclosed spaces but zoos have changed for the better and carry out important breeding, education and conservation work. I used to be against zoos myself until a zoologist friend I went to college with persuaded me to think again about zoos.

    Link below:

    http://peterdickinson.hubpages.com/hub/Why-Zoos


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    #65
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    I used to avoid Dublin zoo, because every time I saw the tiny gorilla enclosure and the miserable silverback it made me feel very sad (despite all the good work done elsewhere). I've gone back since they built the new gorilla enclosure and it's made a huge difference. Other than perhaps too small an enclosure for some of the big cats, it's in great shape at the moment.


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    #66
    c_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    I really don't like the idea of a zoo. I remember going there as a kid and how utterly depressing it was seeing the polar bears enclosure in particular.


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    #67
    Chucken
    Registered Users Posts: 9,459 ✭✭✭Chucken


    RTE just showed "Nationwide revisited". Well worth watching. It shows how absolutely awful the zoo was back in the day compared to what it is now.


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    #68
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Elephants,giraffes , hippos, rhinos, zebras,Gorillas, Chimps,Monkey's, Lions, other big cats. The list could go on of zoo animals that aren't endangered.

    Unless zoos plan on repopulating a wild species, then they are little more then a freak show and cheap entertainment.

    I'd see your view as pretty sensationalist tbh.

    As humans we have an innate tendency towards anthropomorphising other animals' feeling, even those that are dubiously capable of emotional intelligence. Animals no not 'feel' the way we do, but they do have basic needs. A zoo meets - and often surpasses - those needs. They had unlimited food, medical care, they are free from the stress of predation or having to forage for sustenance. They have a ready made territory and there are numerous accounts of animals who have become freed or escaped from an enclosure only to return to the safety of their 'freakshow' home.

    The chances of becoming prey in a zoo are non-existent, the chances of succumbing to disease or parasites is massively reduced. The chances of starvation or dehydration are nil. So what part is the animal missing out on?

    Freedom? Meh, given the option of a potential niche the animal will rarely, if ever, occupy all of that territory, instead living in a much smaller realised niche. If you want to humanise it, think about one person living in a huge mansion - chances are they will live most of their time in the house in two or three primary rooms and will rarely if ever venture into others.

    I don't know if you've ever seen big cats in the wild, but they are lazy baxstards. Wonderfully so. It's only the pressures of mating and feeding that force them to go anywhere. Likewise with most of the animals you have listed.

    Social interaction? This I would agree with in some cases. Elephants thrive in a socially complex hierarchy, travelling in large groups headed up by a long standing matriarch. Socially interactive animals like to be told what to do, in the wild their 'leader' does this for them, in captivity their handlers and feeders can play a surrogate role. It's not a patch on the real thing though.

    Breeding programs - this is one extremely important role that zoos play. Take our own Dublin zoo for example - the zoo is a member of the international tiger breeding program. Given that the wild tiger population is in such horrible decline, one of the only ways to keep the lineage going (and not only going but varied, a major issue facing dwindling populations in the wild is genetic bottlenecking. By 'blind-dating' tigers from zoos around the world we are keeping the lineage for the tigers varied and healthy.

    Some of the breeding programs are also involved in reintroduction programs - afaik some of the birds bred in the zoo are reintroduced in their native rainforests. I've seen something similar in Zimbabwe where the lion cubs of captive lionness are reared for release at 1-2 years old.

    And then there's the educational factor. Keeping animals in captivity helps us to understand how they tick, how they work, what they need. It will help us to understand what kind of conservation programs need to be implemented to make sure that healthy populations remain that way. Even for children (and adults) of the tropical animals that we associate with zoos need to be educated about their value in ecological society. In Kenya or Tanzania lions are seen as cattle killers; in India elephants are seen as crop destroyers. Zoos help us all to appreciate animals as more than just a local pain in the face.

    I'm not saying all zoos are great, and I'm not saying zoos are all inherently great. But slating zoos as having no redeeming feature is - to me - quite misinformed. And I say that as a zoologist and someone who has worked in animal conservation on three different continents.


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    #69
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    g'em wrote: »
    I'd see your view as pretty sensationalist tbh.

    As humans we have an innate tendency towards anthropomorphising other animals' feeling, even those that are dubiously capable of emotional intelligence. Animals no not 'feel' the way we do, but they do have basic needs. A zoo meets - and often surpasses - those needs. They had unlimited food, medical care, they are free from the stress of predation or having to forage for sustenance. They have a ready made territory and there are numerous accounts of animals who have become freed or escaped from an enclosure only to return to the safety of their 'freakshow' home.

    The chances of becoming prey in a zoo are non-existent, the chances of succumbing to disease or parasites is massively reduced. The chances of starvation or dehydration are nil. So what part is the animal missing out on?

    Freedom? Meh, given the option of a potential niche the animal will rarely, if ever, occupy all of that territory, instead living in a much smaller realised niche. If you want to humanise it, think about one person living in a huge mansion - chances are they will live most of their time in the house in two or three primary rooms and will rarely if ever venture into others.

    I don't know if you've ever seen big cats in the wild, but they are lazy baxstards. Wonderfully so. It's only the pressures of mating and feeding that force them to go anywhere. Likewise with most of the animals you have listed.

    Social interaction? This I would agree with in some cases. Elephants thrive in a socially complex hierarchy, travelling in large groups headed up by a long standing matriarch. Socially interactive animals like to be told what to do, in the wild their 'leader' does this for them, in captivity their handlers and feeders can play a surrogate role. It's not a patch on the real thing though.

    Breeding programs - this is one extremely important role that zoos play. Take our own Dublin zoo for example - the zoo is a member of the international tiger breeding program. Given that the wild tiger population is in such horrible decline, one of the only ways to keep the lineage going (and not only going but varied, a major issue facing dwindling populations in the wild is genetic bottlenecking. By 'blind-dating' tigers from zoos around the world we are keeping the lineage for the tigers varied and healthy.

    Some of the breeding programs are also involved in reintroduction programs - afaik some of the birds bred in the zoo are reintroduced in their native rainforests. I've seen something similar in Zimbabwe where the lion cubs of captive lionness are reared for release at 1-2 years old.

    And then there's the educational factor. Keeping animals in captivity helps us to understand how they tick, how they work, what they need. It will help us to understand what kind of conservation programs need to be implemented to make sure that healthy populations remain that way. Even for children (and adults) of the tropical animals that we associate with zoos need to be educated about their value in ecological society. In Kenya or Tanzania lions are seen as cattle killers; in India elephants are seen as crop destroyers. Zoos help us all to appreciate animals as more than just a local pain in the face.

    I'm not saying all zoos are great, and I'm not saying zoos are all inherently great. But slating zoos as having no redeeming feature is - to me - quite misinformed. And I say that as a zoologist and someone who has worked in animal conservation on three different continents.


    There is a difference between animal conservation and putting animals on display for an audience.

    Denying an animals instinctual urge to feed, mate and laze about or roam is completely wrong in my opinion.

    As a zoologist, do you truly believe that large (ultimately) wild animals would rather be enclosed then not?


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    #70
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    How are they being denied?? Mating and feeding in the wild are tough going, many animals in captivity get the opportunity to breed, they just have their mate brought too them. Other than apes and dolphins, no animals take any real pleasure out of mating. It's not like they're sitting in their enclosures bemoaning the fact that they haven't had the ride in months :D

    And to answer your question I don't think animals 'rather' anything. They don't have the power of choice. They don't understand the concept of enclosures, but I do think its possible for an animal to be 'happy' (I.e. undergoing little or no distress) in a.zoo, and the wild subjects them to a heck of a lot more distress and danger.


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    #71
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    You can't breed out instinct.

    You very very definitely can breed out instinct!


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    #72
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    There is a difference between animal conservation and putting animals on display for an audience.

    Without zoos, the general public would care a lot less about conservation projects, would know a lot less about them, and definitely wouldn't make donations etc that are necessary to run these programmes. All of the individual animals needs are catered for in zoos (the good ones like Dublin Zoo anyway), and their presence there is important for conserving the wild populations too.

    And thats on top of the other stuff like keeping a bigger genetic pool etc.


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    #73
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,650 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Dublin Zoo has come along way since the 80's(when frankly a trip would leave one feeling nearly as depressed as the animals inside it). Some species do better then others in Zoos and the modern facilites for the gorillas and chimps in Dublin are impressive. Others though like Polar bear, African Wild dogs etc. are totally unsuited to Zoos of any kind.


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    #74
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    g'em wrote: »
    How are they being denied?? Mating and feeding in the wild are tough going, many animals in captivity get the opportunity to breed, they just have their mate brought too them. Other than apes and dolphins, no animals take any real pleasure out of mating. It's not like they're sitting in their enclosures bemoaning the fact that they haven't had the ride in months :D

    And to answer your question I don't think animals 'rather' anything. They don't have the power of choice. They don't understand the concept of enclosures, but I do think its possible for an animal to be 'happy' (I.e. undergoing little or no distress) in a.zoo, and the wild subjects them to a heck of a lot more distress and danger.

    Predators can't hunt and kill. I think you are wrong that animals don't understand the concept of enclosure. I think a lot of animals are smart enough to know it is better not be in a cage or a small enclosure, especially the massive ones.

    I worked closely with animals while growing up and I could see how distressed some where by being enclosed. And these were domesticated animals.

    Animals definitely have a concept of being content.

    We'll have to agree to disagree.
    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    You very very definitely can breed out instinct!


    Nope. Even the most domesticated and well trained animal are unpredictable. You can dull instinct but it never leaves.Anyone who has ever worked with animals, knows and respects this.

    Even the best behaved cat will play with a mouse.


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    #75
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,838 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    There is a difference between animal conservation and putting animals on display for an audience.
    The big difference is that putting animals on display pays for conservation
    Denying an animals instinctual urge to feed, mate and laze about or roam is completely wrong in my opinion.

    As a zoologist, do you truly believe that large (ultimately) wild animals would rather be enclosed then not?
    I'd rather see a tiger in a cage than have them go extinct.

    Tasmanian Tiger :(


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    #76
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    The big difference is that putting animals on display pays for conservation

    I'd rather see a tiger in a cage than have them go extinct.

    Tasmanian Tiger :(

    What about all the animals who are caged up and not near extinction?


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    #77
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    There is a difference between animal conservation and putting animals on display for an audience.

    Denying an animals instinctual urge to feed, mate and laze about or roam is completely wrong in my opinion.

    As a zoologist, do you truly believe that large (ultimately) wild animals would rather be enclosed then not?

    there's a great documentary about how animals are happy in the zoo, some even thrive on the attention of being looked at, Madagascar I think it was called.


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    #78
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    krudler wrote: »
    there's a great documentary about how animals are happy in the zoo, some even thrive on the attention of being looked at, Madagascar I think it was called.


    I love them bad ass penguins :p


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    #79
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    What about all the animals who are caged up and not near extinction?

    They should be eaten.


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    #80
    buzzardflute
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭buzzardflute


    Been there four times over the last two year's,have to say it gets more boring everytime.I would like to check out fota wildlife park in cork its meant to be a good craic.


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    #81
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    I'm not completely against zoos but I'm not completely for them either, if the animals are being treated well and looked after then great. But you can see how bored a lot of animals get in smaller enclosures. espcially in the in the older Dublin Zoo the gorillas looked miserable, not so much now though its much better.
    Then you get idiotic people banging on cages and shouting at them, if you want to go to a zoo just quietly appreciate the animals dont act like a dick. Last time I was there some spanner was banging on the window of the tiger enclosure trying to wake up the animal sleeping just inside the glass, fcuking idiot and his stupid children wouldnt stop it.

    Best zoo I've ever been in was San Diego, the enclosures are huge, the one with the tigers in it winds through a massive section of the zoo and is full of plants and waterfalls and stuff for them to climb on, looks more like a natural area than a pen.


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    #82
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,838 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    What about all the animals who are caged up and not near extinction?
    Like 90% of lemur species ?

    Loss of habitat is the threat of extinction of most animal species. Poaching and bush meat are also high up on the list.

    Nature reserves don't work if the locals don't have a stake, if there is political instability or corruption or there isn't the political will to support them.


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    #83
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Like 90% of lemur species ?

    Loss of habitat is the threat of extinction of most animal species. Poaching and bush meat are also high up on the list.

    Nature reserves don't work if the locals don't have a stake, if there is political instability or corruption or there isn't the political will to support them.

    What about giraffes, zebras, kangaroos, emo's, etc etc. We could exchange Google found tit bits all night.

    In my own personal opinion, zoos are horribly depressing places. Taking an animal out of it's natural environment is wrong. If they need to be conserved, do it on a nature reserve and make it as close as possible to the environment they are from. Having Camels or polar bears in Dublin is far from natural.


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    #84
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,495 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    What about giraffes, zebras, kangaroos, emo's, etc etc. We could exchange Google found tit bits all night.

    In my own personal opinion, zoos are horribly depressing places. Taking an animal out of it's natural environment is wrong. If they need to be conserved, do it on a nature reserve and make it as close as possible to the environment they are from. Having Camels or polar bears in Dublin is far from natural.

    lol


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    #85
    michellie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,691 ✭✭✭michellie


    Went last week, it was Fantasic, the new section is lovely, arrived to see the gorillas being fed :) my daughter loved it.

    Was at the St.Louis(Missouri) zoo 2 years ago, amazing zoo(free entry) Dublin is just as good !


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    #86
    Oranage2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,128 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    one thing I've noticed about zoos is how lazy animals actually are - I always wondered how some animals manage to survive out in the wild.


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    #87
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,838 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    In my own personal opinion, zoos are horribly depressing places. Taking an animal out of it's natural environment is wrong. If they need to be conserved, do it on a nature reserve and make it as close as possible to the environment they are from. Having Camels or polar bears in Dublin is far from natural.
    Perhaps you'd like to explain how it will get paid for in light of all the other demands for land and food and money by locals, farmers, loggers, miners and speculators ?

    until you have a better solution that can work in the real world you'll have to accept that zoos are a necessary evil


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    #88
    TiGeR KiNgS
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭TiGeR KiNgS


    I remember when I was young going to Dublin Zoo and seeing, 2 Cheetahs ? (big Cats anyway), just pacing back and forth in this small cage.

    I felt sick looking at it and never went back.

    Has this changed ?


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    #89
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »
    I remember when I was young going to Dublin Zoo and seeing, 2 Cheetahs ? (big Cats anyway), just pacing back and forth in this small cage.

    I felt sick looking at it and never went back.

    Has this changed ?
    They're probably long dead by now so... yes.


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    #90
    TiGeR KiNgS
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭TiGeR KiNgS


    Brian Chilly Ale wrote: »
    They're probably long dead by now so... yes.

    Really? that is terrible news......'long dead' you say !
    Torturing animals to death in this way is vile.

    Thank you for informing me WRT the likely outcome of the Cheetahs I saw at the Zoo. After all these years I wondered how they were doing and now your post has given me some sense of relief that they are no longer suffering.

    Many thanks,
    TK


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    #91
    TiGeR KiNgS
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭TiGeR KiNgS


    Brian Chilly Ale wrote: »
    They're probably long dead by now so... yes.

    I truly hope the Northern Ireland Zoo in the UK, situated within Belfast which fly's the flag of her Majesty have not got the aforementioned creatures in such a terrible state.

    The UK I imagine would not tolerate the level of cruelty to animals I saw when I was 6.

    May the Loyal Orange Lodges bless and keep you safe in your Utopian country.


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