Been to the Zoo lately?

LH Pathe · 15-07-2012 1:07am

montyrebel wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1184154.stm

.. think I just vom'd a bit in my mouth. savage

ozmo · 15-07-2012 1:19am

Pure_Cork wrote: »

Dublin Zoo? It's no Fota Wildlife Park.

The annual pass for Dublin zoo if you get one - gets you into Fota Wildlife Park also. Both are very good.

ozmo · 15-07-2012 1:28am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

As for the endangered species, what percentage of animals in world wide zoos are endangered?

Pretty much most of the larger ones it seems.

Was a Fota a while back and almost all the animals on the flier map had some endangered level -
Some even had Extinct (in the wild) - European Bison think it was - and a very large Eagle that used to live in Ireland - they were breading them to reintroduce them to the wild.

Micky Dolenz · 15-07-2012 1:51am

ozmo wrote: »

Pretty much most of the larger ones it seems.

Was a Fota a while back and almost all the animals on the flier map had some endangered level -
Some even had Extinct (in the wild) - European Bison think it was - and a very large Eagle that used to live in Ireland - they were breading them to reintroduce them to the wild.

Can you name must of the larger animals as being on the endangered list?,

Elephants,giraffes , hippos, rhinos, zebras,Gorillas, Chimps,Monkey's, Lions, other big cats. The list could go on of zoo animals that aren't endangered.

Unless zoos plan on repopulating a wild species, then they are little more then a freak show and cheap entertainment.

ozmo · 15-07-2012 2:12am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Can you name most of the larger animals as being on the endangered list?,

Elephants,giraffes , hippos, rhinos, zebras,Gorillas, Chimps,Monkey's, Lions, other big cats. The list could go on of zoo animals that aren't endangered.

Unless zoos plan on repopulating a wild species, then they are little more then a freak show and cheap entertainment.

7 or 8 out of the 10 of your list - Yes - they are of course on the endangered or essentially extinct list.

Source: http://www.earthsendangered.com/list.asp

Elephants - Area(s) Where Listed As Endangered: Africa
giraffes - nope they seem to be ok
hippo - yes, endangered according to above website.
rhinos - definitely especially the white ones
zebras - nah lots of them
Gorillas - yes, endangered due to poaching and habitat loss
Chimps / Monkey's - too general - several species are endangered
Lions - endangered.
other big cats - Siberian Tiger is almost extinct (less than 400 left !!)
http://tigersincrisis.com/siberian_tiger.htm

Cookie_Monster · 15-07-2012 2:13am

To a large degree Dublin zoo has gotten rid of a lot of animals to concentrate of the 'big ticket' ones like lions, apes, elephants etc and is poorer because of it IMO

The meerkat enclosure is crap now too.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 15-07-2012 2:26am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I think most animals have the mating thing nailed

Except for the pandas. A species of awkward teenagers.

steddyeddy · 15-07-2012 2:28am

Brian Chilly Ale wrote: »

Except for the pandas. A species of awkward teenagers.

Actually they have it nailed or they wouldnt have survived as a species. What is true is that humans dont have their mating nailed. All you do to mate them is swap their cages every now and again and bingo.

steddyeddy · 15-07-2012 2:36am

bluewolf wrote: »

I was in jersey zoo a couple years ago, and surprised at the number of "this species is endangered" signs

Because its true

15-07-2012 10:51am

steddyeddy wrote: »

Because its true

well, yeah

i was surprised how many species are endangered...

Gummy Panda · 15-07-2012 10:57am

Brian Chilly Ale wrote: »

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I think most animals have the mating thing nailed

Except for the pandas. A species of awkward teenagers.

Not since panda porn

steddyeddy · 15-07-2012 11:03am

bluewolf wrote: »

well, yeah

i was surprised how many species are endangered...

Were in the fifth mass extinction thanks to man and I dont see it changing anytime soon.

JupiterKid · 15-07-2012 7:22pm

The chap who makes a good case for zoos is linked below.

I can understand why people are opposed to zoos and I certainly don't like to see animals in tiny enclosed spaces but zoos have changed for the better and carry out important breeding, education and conservation work. I used to be against zoos myself until a zoologist friend I went to college with persuaded me to think again about zoos.

Link below:

http://peterdickinson.hubpages.com/hub/Why-Zoos

hmmm · 15-07-2012 7:35pm

I used to avoid Dublin zoo, because every time I saw the tiny gorilla enclosure and the miserable silverback it made me feel very sad (despite all the good work done elsewhere). I've gone back since they built the new gorilla enclosure and it's made a huge difference. Other than perhaps too small an enclosure for some of the big cats, it's in great shape at the moment.

c_man · 15-07-2012 7:37pm

I really don't like the idea of a zoo. I remember going there as a kid and how utterly depressing it was seeing the polar bears enclosure in particular.

Chucken · 15-07-2012 7:38pm

RTE just showed "Nationwide revisited". Well worth watching. It shows how absolutely awful the zoo was back in the day compared to what it is now.

g'em · 15-07-2012 7:46pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Elephants,giraffes , hippos, rhinos, zebras,Gorillas, Chimps,Monkey's, Lions, other big cats. The list could go on of zoo animals that aren't endangered.

Unless zoos plan on repopulating a wild species, then they are little more then a freak show and cheap entertainment.

I'd see your view as pretty sensationalist tbh.

As humans we have an innate tendency towards anthropomorphising other animals' feeling, even those that are dubiously capable of emotional intelligence. Animals no not 'feel' the way we do, but they do have basic needs. A zoo meets - and often surpasses - those needs. They had unlimited food, medical care, they are free from the stress of predation or having to forage for sustenance. They have a ready made territory and there are numerous accounts of animals who have become freed or escaped from an enclosure only to return to the safety of their 'freakshow' home.

The chances of becoming prey in a zoo are non-existent, the chances of succumbing to disease or parasites is massively reduced. The chances of starvation or dehydration are nil. So what part is the animal missing out on?

Freedom? Meh, given the option of a potential niche the animal will rarely, if ever, occupy all of that territory, instead living in a much smaller realised niche. If you want to humanise it, think about one person living in a huge mansion - chances are they will live most of their time in the house in two or three primary rooms and will rarely if ever venture into others.

I don't know if you've ever seen big cats in the wild, but they are lazy baxstards. Wonderfully so. It's only the pressures of mating and feeding that force them to go anywhere. Likewise with most of the animals you have listed.

Social interaction? This I would agree with in some cases. Elephants thrive in a socially complex hierarchy, travelling in large groups headed up by a long standing matriarch. Socially interactive animals like to be told what to do, in the wild their 'leader' does this for them, in captivity their handlers and feeders can play a surrogate role. It's not a patch on the real thing though.

Breeding programs - this is one extremely important role that zoos play. Take our own Dublin zoo for example - the zoo is a member of the international tiger breeding program. Given that the wild tiger population is in such horrible decline, one of the only ways to keep the lineage going (and not only going but varied, a major issue facing dwindling populations in the wild is genetic bottlenecking. By 'blind-dating' tigers from zoos around the world we are keeping the lineage for the tigers varied and healthy.

Some of the breeding programs are also involved in reintroduction programs - afaik some of the birds bred in the zoo are reintroduced in their native rainforests. I've seen something similar in Zimbabwe where the lion cubs of captive lionness are reared for release at 1-2 years old.

And then there's the educational factor. Keeping animals in captivity helps us to understand how they tick, how they work, what they need. It will help us to understand what kind of conservation programs need to be implemented to make sure that healthy populations remain that way. Even for children (and adults) of the tropical animals that we associate with zoos need to be educated about their value in ecological society. In Kenya or Tanzania lions are seen as cattle killers; in India elephants are seen as crop destroyers. Zoos help us all to appreciate animals as more than just a local pain in the face.

I'm not saying all zoos are great, and I'm not saying zoos are all inherently great. But slating zoos as having no redeeming feature is - to me - quite misinformed. And I say that as a zoologist and someone who has worked in animal conservation on three different continents.

Micky Dolenz · 15-07-2012 8:48pm

g'em wrote: »

I'd see your view as pretty sensationalist tbh.

As humans we have an innate tendency towards anthropomorphising other animals' feeling, even those that are dubiously capable of emotional intelligence. Animals no not 'feel' the way we do, but they do have basic needs. A zoo meets - and often surpasses - those needs. They had unlimited food, medical care, they are free from the stress of predation or having to forage for sustenance. They have a ready made territory and there are numerous accounts of animals who have become freed or escaped from an enclosure only to return to the safety of their 'freakshow' home.

The chances of becoming prey in a zoo are non-existent, the chances of succumbing to disease or parasites is massively reduced. The chances of starvation or dehydration are nil. So what part is the animal missing out on?

Freedom? Meh, given the option of a potential niche the animal will rarely, if ever, occupy all of that territory, instead living in a much smaller realised niche. If you want to humanise it, think about one person living in a huge mansion - chances are they will live most of their time in the house in two or three primary rooms and will rarely if ever venture into others.

I don't know if you've ever seen big cats in the wild, but they are lazy baxstards. Wonderfully so. It's only the pressures of mating and feeding that force them to go anywhere. Likewise with most of the animals you have listed.

Social interaction? This I would agree with in some cases. Elephants thrive in a socially complex hierarchy, travelling in large groups headed up by a long standing matriarch. Socially interactive animals like to be told what to do, in the wild their 'leader' does this for them, in captivity their handlers and feeders can play a surrogate role. It's not a patch on the real thing though.

Breeding programs - this is one extremely important role that zoos play. Take our own Dublin zoo for example - the zoo is a member of the international tiger breeding program. Given that the wild tiger population is in such horrible decline, one of the only ways to keep the lineage going (and not only going but varied, a major issue facing dwindling populations in the wild is genetic bottlenecking. By 'blind-dating' tigers from zoos around the world we are keeping the lineage for the tigers varied and healthy.

Some of the breeding programs are also involved in reintroduction programs - afaik some of the birds bred in the zoo are reintroduced in their native rainforests. I've seen something similar in Zimbabwe where the lion cubs of captive lionness are reared for release at 1-2 years old.

And then there's the educational factor. Keeping animals in captivity helps us to understand how they tick, how they work, what they need. It will help us to understand what kind of conservation programs need to be implemented to make sure that healthy populations remain that way. Even for children (and adults) of the tropical animals that we associate with zoos need to be educated about their value in ecological society. In Kenya or Tanzania lions are seen as cattle killers; in India elephants are seen as crop destroyers. Zoos help us all to appreciate animals as more than just a local pain in the face.

I'm not saying all zoos are great, and I'm not saying zoos are all inherently great. But slating zoos as having no redeeming feature is - to me - quite misinformed. And I say that as a zoologist and someone who has worked in animal conservation on three different continents.

There is a difference between animal conservation and putting animals on display for an audience.

Denying an animals instinctual urge to feed, mate and laze about or roam is completely wrong in my opinion.

As a zoologist, do you truly believe that large (ultimately) wild animals would rather be enclosed then not?

g'em · 15-07-2012 9:19pm

How are they being denied?? Mating and feeding in the wild are tough going, many animals in captivity get the opportunity to breed, they just have their mate brought too them. Other than apes and dolphins, no animals take any real pleasure out of mating. It's not like they're sitting in their enclosures bemoaning the fact that they haven't had the ride in months

And to answer your question I don't think animals 'rather' anything. They don't have the power of choice. They don't understand the concept of enclosures, but I do think its possible for an animal to be 'happy' (I.e. undergoing little or no distress) in a.zoo, and the wild subjects them to a heck of a lot more distress and danger.

OpenYourEyes · 15-07-2012 9:24pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

You can't breed out instinct.

You very very definitely can breed out instinct!

OpenYourEyes · 15-07-2012 9:34pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

There is a difference between animal conservation and putting animals on display for an audience.

Without zoos, the general public would care a lot less about conservation projects, would know a lot less about them, and definitely wouldn't make donations etc that are necessary to run these programmes. All of the individual animals needs are catered for in zoos (the good ones like Dublin Zoo anyway), and their presence there is important for conserving the wild populations too.

And thats on top of the other stuff like keeping a bigger genetic pool etc.

Birdnuts · 15-07-2012 10:37pm

Dublin Zoo has come along way since the 80's(when frankly a trip would leave one feeling nearly as depressed as the animals inside it). Some species do better then others in Zoos and the modern facilites for the gorillas and chimps in Dublin are impressive. Others though like Polar bear, African Wild dogs etc. are totally unsuited to Zoos of any kind.

Micky Dolenz · 15-07-2012 10:52pm

g'em wrote: »

How are they being denied?? Mating and feeding in the wild are tough going, many animals in captivity get the opportunity to breed, they just have their mate brought too them. Other than apes and dolphins, no animals take any real pleasure out of mating. It's not like they're sitting in their enclosures bemoaning the fact that they haven't had the ride in months

And to answer your question I don't think animals 'rather' anything. They don't have the power of choice. They don't understand the concept of enclosures, but I do think its possible for an animal to be 'happy' (I.e. undergoing little or no distress) in a.zoo, and the wild subjects them to a heck of a lot more distress and danger.

Predators can't hunt and kill. I think you are wrong that animals don't understand the concept of enclosure. I think a lot of animals are smart enough to know it is better not be in a cage or a small enclosure, especially the massive ones.

I worked closely with animals while growing up and I could see how distressed some where by being enclosed. And these were domesticated animals.

Animals definitely have a concept of being content.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

You very very definitely can breed out instinct!

Nope. Even the most domesticated and well trained animal are unpredictable. You can dull instinct but it never leaves.Anyone who has ever worked with animals, knows and respects this.

Even the best behaved cat will play with a mouse.

Capt'n Midnight · 15-07-2012 10:55pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

There is a difference between animal conservation and putting animals on display for an audience.

The big difference is that putting animals on display pays for conservation

Denying an animals instinctual urge to feed, mate and laze about or roam is completely wrong in my opinion.

As a zoologist, do you truly believe that large (ultimately) wild animals would rather be enclosed then not?

I'd rather see a tiger in a cage than have them go extinct.

Tasmanian Tiger

Micky Dolenz · 15-07-2012 10:57pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The big difference is that putting animals on display pays for conservation

I'd rather see a tiger in a cage than have them go extinct.

Tasmanian Tiger

What about all the animals who are caged up and not near extinction?

krudler · 15-07-2012 11:01pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

There is a difference between animal conservation and putting animals on display for an audience.

Denying an animals instinctual urge to feed, mate and laze about or roam is completely wrong in my opinion.

As a zoologist, do you truly believe that large (ultimately) wild animals would rather be enclosed then not?

there's a great documentary about how animals are happy in the zoo, some even thrive on the attention of being looked at, Madagascar I think it was called.

Micky Dolenz · 15-07-2012 11:04pm

krudler wrote: »

there's a great documentary about how animals are happy in the zoo, some even thrive on the attention of being looked at, Madagascar I think it was called.

I love them bad ass penguins

4zn76tysfajdxp · 15-07-2012 11:06pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

What about all the animals who are caged up and not near extinction?

They should be eaten.

buzzardflute · 15-07-2012 11:09pm

Been there four times over the last two year's,have to say it gets more boring everytime.I would like to check out fota wildlife park in cork its meant to be a good craic.

krudler · 15-07-2012 11:18pm

I'm not completely against zoos but I'm not completely for them either, if the animals are being treated well and looked after then great. But you can see how bored a lot of animals get in smaller enclosures. espcially in the in the older Dublin Zoo the gorillas looked miserable, not so much now though its much better.
Then you get idiotic people banging on cages and shouting at them, if you want to go to a zoo just quietly appreciate the animals dont act like a dick. Last time I was there some spanner was banging on the window of the tiger enclosure trying to wake up the animal sleeping just inside the glass, fcuking idiot and his stupid children wouldnt stop it.

Best zoo I've ever been in was San Diego, the enclosures are huge, the one with the tigers in it winds through a massive section of the zoo and is full of plants and waterfalls and stuff for them to climb on, looks more like a natural area than a pen.

Capt'n Midnight · 15-07-2012 11:28pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

What about all the animals who are caged up and not near extinction?

Like 90% of lemur species ?

Loss of habitat is the threat of extinction of most animal species. Poaching and bush meat are also high up on the list.

Nature reserves don't work if the locals don't have a stake, if there is political instability or corruption or there isn't the political will to support them.

Micky Dolenz · 15-07-2012 11:35pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Like 90% of lemur species ?

Loss of habitat is the threat of extinction of most animal species. Poaching and bush meat are also high up on the list.

Nature reserves don't work if the locals don't have a stake, if there is political instability or corruption or there isn't the political will to support them.

What about giraffes, zebras, kangaroos, emo's, etc etc. We could exchange Google found tit bits all night.

In my own personal opinion, zoos are horribly depressing places. Taking an animal out of it's natural environment is wrong. If they need to be conserved, do it on a nature reserve and make it as close as possible to the environment they are from. Having Camels or polar bears in Dublin is far from natural.

bb1234567 · 15-07-2012 11:42pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

What about giraffes, zebras, kangaroos, emo's, etc etc. We could exchange Google found tit bits all night.

In my own personal opinion, zoos are horribly depressing places. Taking an animal out of it's natural environment is wrong. If they need to be conserved, do it on a nature reserve and make it as close as possible to the environment they are from. Having Camels or polar bears in Dublin is far from natural.

lol

michellie · 16-07-2012 12:04am

Went last week, it was Fantasic, the new section is lovely, arrived to see the gorillas being fed

my daughter loved it.

Was at the St.Louis(Missouri) zoo 2 years ago, amazing zoo(free entry) Dublin is just as good !

Oranage2 · 16-07-2012 12:15am

one thing I've noticed about zoos is how lazy animals actually are - I always wondered how some animals manage to survive out in the wild.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-07-2012 12:38am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

In my own personal opinion, zoos are horribly depressing places. Taking an animal out of it's natural environment is wrong. If they need to be conserved, do it on a nature reserve and make it as close as possible to the environment they are from. Having Camels or polar bears in Dublin is far from natural.

Perhaps you'd like to explain how it will get paid for in light of all the other demands for land and food and money by locals, farmers, loggers, miners and speculators ?

until you have a better solution that can work in the real world you'll have to accept that zoos are a necessary evil

TiGeR KiNgS · 16-07-2012 1:08am

I remember when I was young going to Dublin Zoo and seeing, 2 Cheetahs ? (big Cats anyway), just pacing back and forth in this small cage.

I felt sick looking at it and never went back.

Has this changed ?

4zn76tysfajdxp · 16-07-2012 1:19am

TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »

I remember when I was young going to Dublin Zoo and seeing, 2 Cheetahs ? (big Cats anyway), just pacing back and forth in this small cage.

I felt sick looking at it and never went back.

Has this changed ?

They're probably long dead by now so... yes.

TiGeR KiNgS · 16-07-2012 1:29am

Brian Chilly Ale wrote: »

They're probably long dead by now so... yes.

Really? that is terrible news......'long dead' you say !
Torturing animals to death in this way is vile.

Thank you for informing me WRT the likely outcome of the Cheetahs I saw at the Zoo. After all these years I wondered how they were doing and now your post has given me some sense of relief that they are no longer suffering.

Many thanks,
TK

TiGeR KiNgS · 16-07-2012 1:40am

Brian Chilly Ale wrote: »

They're probably long dead by now so... yes.

I truly hope the Northern Ireland Zoo in the UK, situated within Belfast which fly's the flag of her Majesty have not got the aforementioned creatures in such a terrible state.

The UK I imagine would not tolerate the level of cruelty to animals I saw when I was 6.

May the Loyal Orange Lodges bless and keep you safe in your Utopian country.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 16-07-2012 1:43am

TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »

Really? that is terrible news......'long dead' you say !
Torturing animals to death in this way is vile.

Thank you for informing me WRT the likely outcome of the Cheetahs I saw at the Zoo. After all these years I wondered how they were doing and now your post has given me some sense of relief that they are no longer suffering.

Many thanks,
TK

TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »

I truly hope the Northern Ireland Zoo in the UK, situated within Belfast which fly's the flag of her Majesty have not got the aforementioned creatures in such a terrible state.

The UK I imagine would not tolerate the level of cruelty to animals I saw when I was 6.

May the Loyal Orange Lodges bless and keep you safe in your Utopian country.

You're taking this news very hard. Perhaps you should consider calling a grief counselor?

TiGeR KiNgS · 16-07-2012 1:46am

Brian Chilly Ale wrote: »

You're taking this news very hard. Perhaps you should consider calling a grief counselor?

Not at all.
Your original reply to my genuine post was very heartfelt and I thank you for putting me at ease with your informative reply.

I am at peace now, thanks to you.

jupiterjack · 16-07-2012 2:04am

i have never been to the zoo..foto island is much better..

JupiterKid · 16-07-2012 2:11am

jupiterjack wrote: »

i have never been to the zoo..foto island is much better..

How can you say that Fota Island is better than Dublin zoo when you've never been to the latter and therefore can't compare?

SweetCaliber · 16-07-2012 2:15am

JupiterKid wrote: »

How can you say that Fota Island is better than Dublin zoo when you've never been to the latter and therefore can't compare?

Also Dublin Zoo own Fota

Aaaaaaand.... Dublin Zoo has far more animals :P

jupiterjack · 16-07-2012 2:21am

JupiterKid wrote: »

How can you say that Fota Island is better than Dublin zoo when you've never been to the latter and therefore can't compare?

suppose ur right, will compare when i go but i do love foto..

g'em · 16-07-2012 8:50am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I think you are wrong that animals don't understand the concept of enclosure. I think a lot of animals are smart enough to know it is better not be in a cage or a small enclosure, especially the massive ones.

I worked closely with animals while growing up and I could see how distressed some where by being enclosed. And these were domesticated animals.

Well enclosure could mean anything from a box to a paddock. Would a horse feel constrained and uncomfortable in a tiny holding box? Sure. Would that same horse feel constricted in a paddock? Likewise I'm saying that I don't agree with bad zoos, I agree with zoos that - to 4their best ability - replicate the natural conditions of an animal in the wild.

Have you ever seen the African Savanna section of Dublin zoo? Giraffes, zebras, ostriches (I think) all housed together in one very large paddock. These are animals who would all have hectares at their disposal in the wild, but in the zoo they are free from predatory pressure and disease.

You mentioned predatory animals though, so take the big cats as a classic example. Well, this is where I agree that having an animal as large and roaming as a lion or tiger in a zoo is less than ideal, but I'm willing to offset my concerns with the benefits of knowing that the animals will live long and safe lives, and the educational value they will provide (not only in terms of local schools and even adult education) but in their value as genetic repositories available for studying the species at large.

Micky Dolenz wrote:

Animals definitely have a concept of being content.

And I would argue that such contentment is almost always met by responsible zoos who actively remove all common stressors from same animals' lives: food, disease and shelter.

Micky Dolenz wrote:

Having Camels or polar bears in Dublin is far from natural.

Dublin Zoo no longer has either

smash · 16-07-2012 8:52am

You can't see the silver back any more, he's always hiding... just like the Lion!

Vicxas · 16-07-2012 8:59am

I really liked the zoo when we were there, the only problem i has was that there was no clear path to follow so that you could see everything, the paths just splt into 2 and you had to check you map frequently to see where you were going.

Apart from that i loved it. Love seeing Tigers

Dravokivich · 16-07-2012 9:01am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

What about giraffes, zebras, kangaroos, emo's, etc etc. We could exchange Google found tit bits all night.

In my own personal opinion, zoos are horribly depressing places. Taking an animal out of it's natural environment is wrong. If they need to be conserved, do it on a nature reserve and make it as close as possible to the environment they are from. Having Camels or polar bears in Dublin is far from natural.

What would you suggest should be displayed in a zoo based in Dublin so, Sheep and Cows?

Been to the Zoo lately?

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