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Two interesting motions at the GUI AGM
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Thats the Lance Armstrong defence : if everyone is doing it then by definition it isnt cheating, whatever the rules say. So its only mugs who observe the system, rather than 'optimising' their handicaps to improve their chances of personal or club glory. Realise you arent advocating it Russ, but I guess it is the policy of a good cohort of golfers.
And cycling is still the same 10 years on
I'm not advocating it as you say, but is it cheating, to go out and be a bit more casual about your golf and maybe not be too concerned about your score ? Maybe taking on shots you normally wouldn't, and to heck with the consequences ? I'm not so sure it is.
We all try very hard in medals and majors, are we somehow cheating by not caring or trying as hard in run of the mill comps ? I realise I'm playing devils advocate to a point, but it's not always black and white and I'd suggest almost impossible to prove anything untoward is going on.
Or an even more extreme example, I'll take on shots/carries in stableford that I won't in strokes, am I cheating by not taking the cautious steady route that possibly I "should" take to optimise my score ? It's easy to stretch that out to a fella trying something or messing around in the last few singles comps if he doesn't really care (or secretly doesn't want to get cut !).0 -
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People not returning cards affects standard scratch.
it was decided in Athlone that everyone must return their scorecard and so we used the tracking system on the computer to see who was and was not returning cards. People not returning cards on a consistent basis were warned about it.
i don't think any rules were broken on our part, as was quoted above, that rule seems to have covered our situation pretty well.
not sure what the new rules will mean for us, and I'm not on committee so i won't begin to speculate how this affects us
i shall now exit the thread, permanently..... Stage left!0 -
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People not returning cards affects standard scratch.
it was decided in Athlone that everyone must return their scorecard and so we used the tracking system on the computer to see who was and was not returning cards. People not returning cards on a consistent basis were warned about it.
i don't think any rules were broken on our part, as was quoted above, that rule seems to have covered our situation pretty well.
not sure what the new rules will mean for us, and I'm not on committee so i won't begin to speculate how this affects us
i shall now exit the thread, permanently..... Stage left!
Responsibilities of the Handicap Committee:
Under Clause 7:(d) Unless some other body has been appointed by the Home Club for this purpose, exercise the power to suspend handicaps contained in Clause 24.
Responsibilities of the Player:8.8 Ensure that all competition cards in Qualifying Competitions, whether or not complete, are returned to the organising Committee, and make such computer entries as may be required – see Decisions,
Dec.(m) and Dec.(n).Note 1: Players are reminded that failure to report all Qualifying Scores returned away from their Home Clubs (including ‘No Returns’ and Disqualified Scores – see Appendix P) as required by the UHS could lead to the suspension of offending players’ handicaps under the provisions of Clause 2424. The handicap of a player shall be suspended by a Union, Area Authority or a player’s Home Club if in its opinion he has:
(a) constantly or blatantly failed to comply with the obligations and responsibilities imposed by the UHS
Handicap Committees are meant to read, understand the rules and then implement them.0 -
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I'm not advocating it as you say, but is it cheating, to go out and be a bit more casual about your golf and maybe not be too concerned about your score ? Maybe taking on shots you normally wouldn't, and to heck with the consequences ? I'm not so sure it is.
We all try very hard in medals and majors, are we somehow cheating by not caring or trying as hard in run of the mill comps ? I realise I'm playing devils advocate to a point, but it's not always black and white and I'd suggest almost impossible to prove anything untoward is going on.
Or an even more extreme example, I'll take on shots/carries in stableford that I won't in strokes, am I cheating by not taking the cautious steady route that possibly I "should" take to optimise my score ? It's easy to stretch that out to a fella trying something or messing around in the last few singles comps if he doesn't really care (or secretly doesn't want to get cut !).
Course managment certainly isn't cheating... thats your call over every shot... if you lay up and I go for it that's not cheating.... deciding to fluff a hole or two on purpose to make sure you don't get cut... thats cheating.
Managing your handicap is cheating.
Your handicap is supposed to fluctuate all by itself based on how you play during the year.... if you at any point decide to pull up or do something to make sure you don't get cut... there's no grey area.. it is black or white.. you are ( obviously this isn't directed at you!) cheating.
The levels to which some people go to not get cut vary but it is wide spread.....
I start off every comp with the same intention.... beat my handicap
if things go the way of the pear early I set myself different goals
but thats just me
--Quote
Maybe, just maybe, its not as widespread as is made out ?
People aren't going to go onto internet forums or chat to their mates about how the system is working brilliantly, it's only those with a gripe that will air their views. Empty vessels etc.......
Maybe it is, I dunno.
--End Quote
Obviously it's only those with a gripe that will have a go and have their say on forums..... I don't expect some bloke who plays in team events all year collects heaps of prizes to come on here and defend himself... he'll just say nothing and go win himself another holiday!.
I don't know if you play mostly single events, scratch cups thats kind of thing or whether you play in team comps with your mates.... but the area that most of the cheaters focus on is team events because their artificailly high handicaps are not under threat....
You might get lads who mind their handicap coming up to club majors or to still make the cut in a scratch cup but they are at least still playing singles events where they will be cut.
It's seriously naive to think that cheating is not wide spread....
Maybe Cork where I'm based is a hot bed for it but I've seen so much of it first hand in the couple of clubs where I've been a member or have friends as members that I can only imagine it is the same across the board....
I'd love to do a straw poll of the people who contribute here on this forum to see who thinks cheating is wide spread and whether the person plays only singles events or team events.
Finally ( thank God I hear you say! )
The GUI audits wont do anything to stop team cheating and it's team cheating that is most wide spread... forcing people to play 3 qualifying comps at home is a start but it's not enough.
Something needs to be done to counter the cancer that it is.:mad:0 -
Course managment certainly isn't cheating... thats your call over every shot... if you lay up and I go for it that's not cheating.... deciding to fluff a hole or two on purpose to make sure you don't get cut... thats cheating.
Managing your handicap is cheating.
Your handicap is supposed to fluctuate all by itself based on how you play during the year.... if you at any point decide to pull up or do something to make sure you don't get cut... there's no grey area.. it is black or white.. you are ( obviously this isn't directed at you!) cheating.
The levels to which some people go to not get cut vary but it is wide spread.....
I start off every comp with the same intention.... beat my handicap
if things go the way of the pear early I set myself different goals
but thats just me
--Quote
Maybe, just maybe, its not as widespread as is made out ?
People aren't going to go onto internet forums or chat to their mates about how the system is working brilliantly, it's only those with a gripe that will air their views. Empty vessels etc.......
Maybe it is, I dunno.
--End Quote
Obviously it's only those with a gripe that will have a go and have their say on forums..... I don't expect some bloke who plays in team events all year collects heaps of prizes to come on here and defend himself... he'll just say nothing and go win himself another holiday!.
I don't know if you play mostly single events, scratch cups thats kind of thing or whether you play in team comps with your mates.... but the area that most of the cheaters focus on is team events because their artificailly high handicaps are not under threat....
You might get lads who mind their handicap coming up to club majors or to still make the cut in a scratch cup but they are at least still playing singles events where they will be cut.
It's seriously naive to think that cheating is not wide spread....
Maybe Cork where I'm based is a hot bed for it but I've seen so much of it first hand in the couple of clubs where I've been a member or have friends as members that I can only imagine it is the same across the board....
I'd love to do a straw poll of the people who contribute here on this forum to see who thinks cheating is wide spread and whether the person plays only singles events or team events.
Finally ( thank God I hear you say! )
The GUI audits wont do anything to stop team cheating and it's team cheating that is most wide spread... forcing people to play 3 qualifying comps at home is a start but it's not enough.
Something needs to be done to counter the cancer that it is.:mad:
Good post.
I'd agree 99% with your sentiment. Ok, fair enough, team events are seriously dodgy areas, but to expect otherwise might be a bridge too far. I play in one team event per year, a two day annual fund raiser but that's it. I never expect to win it, although I always feel over two days there's a chance. We have a team event every bank holiday and up to last year when they left the club, I could have written down 3 of the 4 names of a prize winning team in advance of the comp most times. Something should have been done about them but for some reason it never was.
Best way to combat team events is smaller prizes. Any event that has a holiday or 500" TV as a prize is asking for trouble. That's probably a poorer reflection of us as a society than a statement on golfers !
The whole area of handicap management is pretty much impossible to police though. I mean ultimately it comes down to a player's state of mind. The UHS states that its based on the premise that a player tries his best (or words to that effect), but how can I or anyone say whether someone is or isn't, with any accuracy ? The best players in the world hit poor shots at the wrong moments and they're hardly "pulling". Yet, some people would have you believe that if a 16 handicapper double bogeys the 18th, he's up to no good - its farcical IMO. Of course there are bad eggs out there, but the clever ones will have their pulling done well before the 18th. Same reason the ESR doesn't hit its intended target, any genuine bandit will make sure not to break CSS by 4. It only hits players on a hot streak or juniors on their way down, when chances are the system would caught them anyway a week or two later.
I had it myself last year, cruising along 2 under par after 16, silly missed par putt on 17th but no drama, pulled drive into trees on 18th, got in to play it, the ball moved, penalty shot, hack out, long iron just short, average chip and missed putt giving me a triple - I was trying my best to do a decent score as I hadn't broken par in about 3 years, yet it looks terrible on the card. I even had to listen to some slagging about pulling to make sure I didn't get cut too much !! Nothing could have been further from the truth.
The 1% I might disagree with is, we'll say its the last comp of the year, a meaningless singles off the forward tees, you've had a good season and got cut to 8.5, so as it stands you still qualify for the Metro next year. You really want to play Metro, but its a nice sunny day and you want to have a game rather than drive back home. Now, without intentionally playing bad, I'm not so sure someone who doesn't try as hard as they maybe could is cheating. Or even if they are, how could it possibly be proven, if they turn in 33pts and are in the buffer ?
Its just such a grey area that I think we'd all be wasting our time worrying about it and trying to police it.
The current line of thinking with the GUI seems to be that almost everyone is a bandit, maybe I'm out of touch and everyone is, in fact, a bandit.0 -
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I don't think they think everyone is a bandit, however I would say that the vast majority have higher handicaps than they should.
I don't care that it allows lower guys be artificially low, that's their own problem. For the events they enter they should have a requirement have shot x in last 6 months something.
Everyone else needs to be protected from themselves, for me your handicap shouldn't rocket just because are In a bad patch. That just means you don't and imo shouldn't win anything, by definition you are playing worse than normal, a handicap isn't there to boost you up then.
Ah come on, a maximum of 2 shots (20 0.1s) in a given year is hardly "rocketing".
If someone is getting 20 0.1's in a year and no cuts then I think they obviously "need" the 2.0 shots.
I love how this always comes back to course management... What has course management got to do with the handicap system moreso than anything else.
It's a fundamental of the game, but it needs to be worked on just like anything else, there are other fundamentals but yet this seems to crop up all by itself, as if it is some magic cure for the High HC'er, as if they haven't got other flaws with their game and as if it is an easy and quick fix.
Yet somehow Course Management gets brought into it as this easy fix.
Why not start looking at peoples grips, time spent practicing, putting stroke etc etc etc.
I personally think course management is a harder skill to master than any of the other skills needed.
Lowering someones handicap does not lead to the magical situation where they discover and implement good CM.
It's the opposite, like all the other skills, as you improve on this area, the Handicap reductions follow.
Yes, most peoples Handicaps are higher than they should... I don't think many of us have discovered the secret to golf so in that sense, there is always room for improvement and we will always play to a handicap higher than we could/should.
I also love how these discussions automatically home in on high HC'ers...why?
Could I not say that you are should be playing to a lower handicap and deserve a cut.
You obviously have CM mastered sensei
But I am sure there are other areas that you can improve.
Would it be fair to cut you 2-3 shots and say, "get out to the range and start working on your driving, long irons, etc, etc" and you will be able to play off your lower HC.0 -
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Ah come on, a maximum of 2 shots (20 0.1s) in a given year is hardly "rocketing".
If someone is getting 20 0.1's in a year and no cuts then I think they obviously "need" the 2.0 shots.
I love how this always comes back to course management... What has course management got to do with the handicap system moreso than anything else.
It's a fundamental of the game, but it needs to be worked on just like anything else, there are other fundamentals but yet this seems to crop up all by itself, as if it is some magic cure for the High HC'er, as if they haven't got other flaws with their game and as if it is an easy and quick fix.
Yet somehow Course Management gets brought into it as this easy fix.
Why not start looking at peoples grips, time spent practicing, putting stroke etc etc etc.
I personally think course management is a harder skill to master than any of the other skills needed.
Lowering someones handicap does not lead to the magical situation where they discover and implement good CM.
It's the opposite, like all the other skills, as you improve on this area, the Handicap reductions follow.
Yes, most peoples Handicaps are higher than they should... I don't think many of us have discovered the secret to golf so in that sense, there is always room for improvement and we will always play to a handicap higher than we could/should.
I also love how these discussions automatically home in on high HC'ers...why?
Could I not say that you are should be playing to a lower handicap and deserve a cut.
You obviously have CM mastered sensei
But I am sure there are other areas that you can improve.
Would it be fair to cut you 2-3 shots and say, "get out to the range and start working on your driving, long irons, etc, etc" and you will be able to play off your lower HC.
I dont think I mentioned course management...?
I think you've jumped on a dead fish there tbh!
There is a massive difference between playing how you should and playing how you could. We could all play better by practicing more, etc. But I should be playing better than I currently am, as I have, consistently played better than I am right now.
My average day on the course would have me playing to 7/8, currently Im off 10 (9.5) due to a run of less than average golf. I think this is wrong. I'm still the same guy I was when I got to 8.1, I'm just playing badly at the moment. I dont expect to still be competitive when Im playing below par (har har1) for myself.Then how come so few players shoot 36 (or even 34) points in your average weekly singles ? Are they all sandbagging ?
IMO your handicap should of course fluctuate with your form/ability. Ok its not an exact science, and you shouldn't get shots back just because you had a bad round, but your handicap isn't meant to be just an indication of how you could once play, its supposed to be reasonably current. Its not a fixed value of how good or bad someone may have been. People improve and disimprove and the handicap system is in theory there to level out the playing field so everyone can be competitive.
There will always be a timing lag, you play bad for a while, you'll get the 0.1s and when/if your form turns, you'll get cut.
Depending on a player's priorities artificially low golfers can be a bigger problem than artificially high ones. Both are equally wrong IMO.
Most people dont shoot 36 points because your handicap is designed so that you dont. You have to play well to shoot 36 points, its all there laid out by CONGU. 36 points means playing above average, not average. Its supposed to happen something like 2 out of every 7 times. Thats why the handicap system is weighted to cut you when you do better than it. If 36 points was supposed to be your average score you would get cut and increased by the same amount and there would be no buffer zone to keep you low.0 -
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Ah come on, a maximum of 2 shots (20 0.1s) in a given year is hardly "rocketing".
If someone is getting 20 0.1's in a year and no cuts then I think they obviously "need" the 2.0 shots.
I love how this always comes back to course management... What has course management got to do with the handicap system moreso than anything else.
It's a fundamental of the game, but it needs to be worked on just like anything else, there are other fundamentals but yet this seems to crop up all by itself, as if it is some magic cure for the High HC'er, as if they haven't got other flaws with their game and as if it is an easy and quick fix.
Yet somehow Course Management gets brought into it as this easy fix.
Why not start looking at peoples grips, time spent practicing, putting stroke etc etc etc.
I personally think course management is a harder skill to master than any of the other skills needed.
Lowering someones handicap does not lead to the magical situation where they discover and implement good CM.
It's the opposite, like all the other skills, as you improve on this area, the Handicap reductions follow.
Yes, most peoples Handicaps are higher than they should... I don't think many of us have discovered the secret to golf so in that sense, there is always room for improvement and we will always play to a handicap higher than we could/should.
I also love how these discussions automatically home in on high HC'ers...why?
Could I not say that you are should be playing to a lower handicap and deserve a cut.
You obviously have CM mastered sensei
But I am sure there are other areas that you can improve.
Would it be fair to cut you 2-3 shots and say, "get out to the range and start working on your driving, long irons, etc, etc" and you will be able to play off your lower HC.
I think you're completely off the mark....
I'm not sure what your point is about course management???
Why do these conversations come back to high handicappers???
Because people who artifically increase their handicaps and go play in teams events or any event are cheating.... that doesn't mean everyone with an 18 handicap is cheating... it's only people who are artifically increasing their handicaps....
The idea of your handicap is to adjust your score according to your ability so that you can score 36 points in a stableford competition.
If you consistently score 40 points then your handicap gets adjusted to bring you back to the 36 points mark.... if you consistently score 30 points then you get your .1's back...
There are a few brackets for golfer and their handicaps
There are the people playing off lower handicaps than they should be playing off.... vanity golfers
there are people playing off roughly what they should be off... your Joe soap golfer
and there are people playing off inflated handicaps.... your cheating golfer0 -
I dont think I mentioned course management...?
I think you've jumped on a dead fish there tbh!
There is a massive difference between playing how you should and playing how you could. We could all play better by practicing more, etc. But I should be playing better than I currently am, as I have, consistently played better than I am right now.
My average day on the course would have me playing to 7/8, currently Im off 10 (9.5) due to a run of less than average golf. I think this is wrong. I'm still the same guy I was when I got to 8.1, I'm just playing badly at the moment. I dont expect to still be competitive when Im playing below par (har har1) for myself. You didn't (for a change ) .. My bad.
Ok, so in your example, what change to the system can be introduced to get rid of this "wrong".
How does it work? Do you stay at your low point (HC) for X period no matter what?
I'm sure it's not the case, and I hope not, but what if this bad run isn't just a bad run... what if you've past your peak? Should the HC system not reflect your current (past 12 months or so?) game rather than over a year ago?
I think you are taking an imperfect system and making it an even less imperfect system if you go down that road.0 -
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