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Is the fear of Paedophilia preventing positive male role models?

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    #62
    Eve_Dublin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,886 ✭✭✭Eve_Dublin


    who_me wrote: »
    I had a 'funny' situation recently, when some of my Spanish flatmate's family (her sister, brother-in-law and their 2 year old daughter) came to stay in my apartment for a short visit.

    One day when they were leaving the flat they said for her (the daughter) to kiss me goodbye. I expected a peck on the cheek Spanish-style but she gave me a peck on the lips. I immediately got defensive ("I didn't mean that... I thought she...") but I looked at the parents and they were just smiling saying it was sooo cute.

    There certainly seems to be a different in attitudes across countries. Either "in reality", or in the minds of us men!

    I was going to post about this. This attitude you're all talking about doesn't exist here. Men can touch, hug and talk to kids they don't know here with no problems. I've no idea why this is more prevalent in the UK, Ireland and the States...I suppose a big part of it is the fact that sensationalist tabloid-style papers don't exist here. I think they are to blame.


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    #63
    population
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭population


    Eve_Dublin wrote: »
    I was going to post about this. This attitude you're all talking about doesn't exist here. Men can touch, hug and talk to kids they don't know here with no problems. I've no idea why this is more prevalent in the UK, Ireland and the States...I suppose a big part of it is the fact that sensationalist tabloid-style papers don't exist here. I think they are to blame.

    Italy is exactly the same. I do not feel nervous around children here and yet when I am back in Ireland, if a kid waved at me on the bus I would try not to react for fear of the parent getting the wrong idea. It's a pity but the way it is now


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    #64
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,320 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Boys and girls; the new word for today is 'naivete'.

    Au contraire! I've been working and volunteering with kids for the last five years. Never had an issue due to pretty much sticking to the guidelines.


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    #65
    Blisterman
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭Blisterman


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    Au contraire! I've been working and volunteering with kids for the last five years. Never had an issue due to pretty much sticking to the guidelines.

    The purpose of the thread was not so much about whether false accusations are made, but more about the effect of the fear of false accusations.

    Maybe there is a bit of paranoia here. But it's clear from reading this thread that a lot of men are wary of putting themselves in any position where there could be misunderstandings, and that is preventing kids from having interaction with adults, as a result.

    So the question is what effect is this having, and how can some kind of normality be restored? It's interesting hearing from people that this kind of culture doesn't exist in other countries. Is there any difference in the rates of child abuse in those countries?


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    #66
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    Au contraire! I've been working and volunteering with kids for the last five years. Never had an issue due to pretty much sticking to the guidelines.
    Well clearly Gloomtastic you are correct and everyone else here claiming the contrary, is delusional.

    Sarcasm aside, might I suggest that just because you have no problem, doesn't mean a problem can't exist? The naivete TC could be referring to is your willingness to disregard every other poster on this thread.

    On a side note, I take it you are in fact a man?


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    #67
    ongarboy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭ongarboy


    I think people who never encountered this concern or dilemma are equally entitled to share their experiences on this thread as those that have and should not be accused of being naive or living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Personally, this situation never entered my head until my brother jokingly said to me during the summer when I was out in the common green area of our neighbourhood playing with my nieces and nephews - piggy back rides, swinging them around etc that I should be careful in case the neighbours might get suspicious. While he said it in jest, it did make me think for the first time about how things can be perceived. Sadly, it has made me think twice about taking part in such games with them in such a public setting in future which is a shame.


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    #68
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    ongarboy wrote: »
    I think people who never encountered this concern or dilemma are equally entitled to share their experiences on this thread as those that have and should not be accused of being naive or living in cloud cuckoo land.
    Certainly, but not if they go on to suggest that based on their experiences, the experiences of others are founded in nothing more than paranoid fantasy.


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    #69
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    Au contraire! I've been working and volunteering with kids for the last five years. Never had an issue due to pretty much sticking to the guidelines.

    You just don't get it do you. You not having had a problem means what exactly ? that the problem doesn't exist ? or that you have been lucky because you stick to the stringent guidelines designed on the basis that you might be an abuser ?

    Because the problem does exist, clearly. It is a huge problem and tens of thousands of men experience it on a regular, weekly, basis across Ireland and the UK.


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    #70
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Blisterman wrote: »
    Maybe there is a bit of paranoia here. But it's clear from reading this thread that a lot of men are wary of putting themselves in any position where there could be misunderstandings, and that is preventing kids from having interaction with adults, as a result.
    And to be honest I see NO paranoia, which would be the case if the fear was deluded or not based on fact. But the opposite is true. I have discussed this very subject with many many male contacts over the last 15 years or so. The percentage who have direct experience of this and who have a real fear of accusation, or direct experience of accusation, is very very high. And the affect of accusation is REAL, and catastrophic in every sense of the word.

    We are now living in a society where children's contact with adult males who are not their father is being strangled and eliminated. This is a terrible and damaging development for both men and for children; children who are already being raised in a female dominated school environment with no male role models and are now being denied that from other men in their lives. And men are being denied the life experience, and enjoyment of, contact with children except for their own if they are lucky to have them.

    This is a shameful development in our society and one I am sure we will pay the price of in future years.


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    #71
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    ongarboy wrote: »
    I think people who never encountered this concern or dilemma are equally entitled to share their experiences on this thread as those that have and should not be accused of being naive or living in cloud cuckoo land.
    Except lack of any such experiences is not an experience. Just a statement of luck.
    Personally, this situation never entered my head until my brother jokingly said to me during the summer when I was out in the common green area of our neighbourhood playing with my nieces and nephews - piggy back rides, swinging them around etc that I should be careful in case the neighbours might get suspicious. While he said it in jest, it did make me think for the first time about how things can be perceived. Sadly, it has made me think twice about taking part in such games with them in such a public setting in future which is a shame.
    A deep shame that is totally underestimated by society, and which is exploited by the feminist movement as part of their strategy to marginalise men's roles while boosting their own influence.


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    #72
    Emeraldy Pebbles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 787 ✭✭✭Emeraldy Pebbles


    Piliger wrote: »
    A deep shame that is totally underestimated by society, and which is exploited by the feminist movement as part of their strategy to marginalise men's roles while boosting their own influence.

    Does everything come back to the feminist movement for you? :confused:


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    #73
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Piliger wrote: »
    You just don't get it do you. You not having had a problem means what exactly ? that the problem doesn't exist ? or that you have been lucky because you stick to the stringent guidelines designed on the basis that you might be an abuser ?
    In fairness, I think the chap's been flamed enough for his error.

    The problem is two-fold; on one side is the now prevailing attitude that all men are rapists and paedophiles - all we need is to be left alone with a child, woman or other victim, for our natural inclinations to come out. Such attitudes are regrettably quite commonplace, although often expressed sottovoce.

    The second is the more serious question of false accusation and as darlett pointed out earlier, following the rules is sometimes not enough, given that as adorable as they may be, some kids are simply unrepentant sociopaths.

    But I do think it understandable why some may choose to dismiss this problem; after all, it's completely insane, when you think about it - barely beggars belief. Yet, it happens, as the testimony of many here will attest and as some corporate policies will underline.

    Which is all the more bizarre given that in cases where female teachers will sexually abuse or rape their male students, they're often seen as cougars and milfs by the same media.
    Emeraldy Pebbles wrote: »
    Does everything come back to the feminist movement for you? :confused:
    I personally think this mainly hysteria is a product of the media, myself. The Church abuse scandals probably also have played a part, as is the complicit silence of our parents, grandparents and ourselves to those scandals - let's be honest about it, everyone knew it was going on - and so now we're overcompensating to salve our collective consciences.

    The only area where Feminism might come into this is that it's never been too comfortable with issues that may paint men as victims, so you'll get the odd one jump into the thread and try to dismiss it, before jumping out again to lurk. From what I can see, that has already happened earlier in this thread.


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    #74
    Emeraldy Pebbles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 787 ✭✭✭Emeraldy Pebbles


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I personally think this mainly hysteria is a product of the media, myself. The Church abuse scandals probably also have played a part, as is the complicit silence of our parents, grandparents and ourselves to those scandals - let's be honest about it, everyone knew it was going on - and so now we're overcompensating to salve our collective consciences.

    The only area where Feminism might come into this is that it's never been too comfortable with issues that may paint men as victims, so you'll get the odd one jump into the thread and try to dismiss it, before jumping out again to lurk. From what I can see, that has already happened earlier in this thread.

    I believe it's a media thing too.

    Also, it's shame that paedophiles (very rare as they are) seem to gravitate towards professions and activities that give them easy access to children eg. priesthood, sports coaching, voluntary work etc. (Read about Jerry Sandusky if you haven't already) Not to sound too flippant here but they really do ruin it for everyone, this tiny minority. :(


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    #75
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭iptba


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    The problem is two-fold; on one side is the now prevailing attitude that all men are rapists and paedophiles - all we need is to be left alone with a child, woman or other victim, for our natural inclinations to come out. Such attitudes are regrettably quite commonplace, although often expressed sottovoce.

    [snip]
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Which is all the more bizarre given that in cases where female teachers will sexually abuse or rape their male students, they're often seen as cougars and milfs by the same media.

    [snip]
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    The only area where Feminism might come into this is that it's never been too comfortable with issues that may paint men as victims, so you'll get the odd one jump into the thread and try to dismiss it, before jumping out again to lurk. From what I can see, that has already happened earlier in this thread.
    Your point about rape does remind me of what seems like an ever widening definition of rape, where unless the female is sober and explicitly verbally gives consent, possibly several times, a man could be accused of rape.

    And then the unusual legal rules around such cases. And the downplaying, as some people see it, of the risk of false allegations by some feminists. As I've heard it described, unlike with most crimes, the defendant isn't necessarily seen as somebody innocent until proven guilty.

    Such a scenario may also have relevance to the climate around men, children and abuse.


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    #76
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Piliger wrote: »
    A deep shame that is totally underestimated by society, and which is exploited by the feminist movement as part of their strategy to marginalise men's roles while boosting their own influence.

    as always, please leave out the generalisations.


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    #77
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Emeraldy Pebbles wrote: »
    Also, it's shame that paedophiles (very rare as they are) seem to gravitate towards professions and activities that give them easy access to children eg. priesthood, sports coaching, voluntary work etc. (Read about Jerry Sandusky if you haven't already) Not to sound too flippant here but they really do ruin it for everyone, this tiny minority. :(
    I'm not convinced that paedophiles (or pederastists) do gravitate twoards professions and activities that give them easy access to children, per say. Certainly, whenever I read about people being arrested for possession of child porn, almost none of them are.

    Then again, it also stands to reason that those who seek to actively pursue their paraphilia do pursue such professions and activities.

    Complex issue, IMO.
    iptba wrote: »
    Your point about rape does remind me of what seems like an ever widening definition of rape, where unless the female is sober and explicitly verbally gives consent, possibly several times, a man could be accused of rape.
    Rape is generally sexual intercourse where one of the parties (the victim) does not (or cannot) give consent. Where the victim cannot give consent, this is statutory rape, which is what we have with minors. So, it's not all that old a definition, except for the old prejudice that you need a penis to commit rape - which is why women cannot be arrested for rape under Irish law.
    sam34 wrote: »
    as always, please leave out the generalisations.
    ...


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    #78
    Emeraldy Pebbles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 787 ✭✭✭Emeraldy Pebbles


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I'm not convinced that paedophiles (or pederastists) do gravitate twoards professions and activities that give them easy access to children, per say. Certainly, whenever I read about people being arrested for possession of child porn, almost none of them are.

    Then again, it also stands to reason that those who seek to actively pursue their paraphilia do pursue such professions and activities.

    Complex issue, IMO.

    In the case of downloading child porn, you don't need to be in a profession that gives access to children. But to activity seek out children, it makes things easier to have easier access to them. Two different things, as in the first instance, you are watching others do the abusing. :(


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    #79
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭iptba


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Rape is generally sexual intercourse where one of the parties (the victim) does not (or cannot) give consent. Where the victim cannot give consent, this is statutory rape, which is what we have with minors. So, it's not all that old a definition, except for the old prejudice that you need a penis to commit rape - which is why women cannot be arrested for rape under Irish law.
    I'm far from an expert on rape and rape politics. But the issue of consent isn't a straightforward thing. Here's a piece on the Julian Assange allegations http://justice4assange.com/Sexual-Offences.html .

    Anyway, I accept your point about statutory rape: consent isn't generally an issue (unless one is talking about people around 16/17 perhaps) - that was just leading to what I was saying.

    But as I try to point out, I think there can parallels about how the criminal justice deal with such cases and the views of defendants.


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    #80
    seamie87
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭seamie87


    Maybe the whole big paedo scare was based around keeping kids away from male role models?


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    #81
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭iptba


    Negative representations of men have lead to some people thinking there should be drives to promote better images of men.

    Not sure if this is the best example, but one group that comes to mind is The Good Men Project http://goodmenproject.com/about/
    Guys today are neither the mindless, sex-obsessed buffoons nor the stoic automatons our culture so often makes them out to be.
    Our community is smart, compassionate, curious, and open-minded; they strive to be good fathers and husbands, citizens and friends, to lead by example at home and in the workplace, and to understand their role in a changing world. etc.

    Other groups and individuals complain about instances of misandry in society, perhaps akin to how some feminists would complain about misogyny. Negative views of men as dangerous, potential paedophiles and/or rapists can fit in to complaints about misandry in society e.g. attitudes of airline companies not letting unaccompanied minors sit beside men.


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    #82
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,320 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    In fairness, I think the chap's been flamed enough for his error.

    What error? :mad:

    You either are a kiddie fiddler or you're not. Who better to know than yourself? If people have nothing better to do with their lives than think ill of others, then that is their problem. Not yours.

    Trying living your lives as you see fit as opposed to what you think others would like you to be. If you cut out all the intellectual claptrap, it's called growing a pair!


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    #83
    Woodward
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Woodward


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    What error? :mad:

    You either are a kiddie fiddler or you're not. Who better to know than yourself? If people have nothing better to do with their lives than think ill of others, then that is their problem. Not yours.

    Trying living your lives as you see fit as opposed to what you think others would like you to be. If you cut out all the intellectual claptrap, it's called growing a pair!

    It becomes your problem once they lodge a complaint. Innocent until proven guilty rarely applies to sex cases and even if you are proved innocent your name is dragged through the mud


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    #84
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,320 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Woodward wrote: »

    It becomes your problem once they lodge a complaint. Innocent until proven guilty rarely applies to sex cases and even if you are proved innocent your name is dragged through the mud

    And you could get run over by a bus tomorrow ...........


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    #85
    Jimmy Iovine
    Registered Users Posts: 9,416 ✭✭✭Jimmy Iovine


    Galvasean wrote: »
    That attitude is quite common. When I was in secondary school two of my best friends wanted to go on to do primary school teaching. One was male, the other female. Sure enough the guy was constantly being called a paedo (both behind his back and to his face). No one ever said such things to/about the girl. Fast forward to now and she is a primary school teacher while my male friend has changed careers.
    I'd say a lot of men are put off following such career paths due to this.

    I'm studying to be a teacher in Wales, and I'm currently on teaching practice. I'm in with the year 3 class which is the exact same as second class back in Ireland (7-8 year olds).

    It'd be a disaster for me if I was to find myself in a situation whereby I was the only one in a room with another child. If the wrong person saw it then I'd be off to a very bad start in my career.

    Teaching at that age is a little bit of a nightmare at times. The children are all so nice and they want you to be giving them high fives and stuff the whole time. It's difficult but I think you really have to remain a little distanced from them, to save yourself from an embarrassing situation and to retain your authority in the classroom.

    I'm glad I'm not teaching any of the younger children. I see some teachers going around holding their hands and giving them hugs. I'd be sued from here to Nantucket, I'd say, if I was to teach in those classes.

    The media has a huge role to play in this in my opinion. Bad news sells these days, unfortunately. Flick through the papers on a daily basis and you'll see almost no mention of men, or women for that matter, being hailed as role models for children. It's a sad world we live in. It would not surprise me in the least if some people genuinely think that all male teachers have ulterior motives.

    My brother went the whole way through primary school without having a male teacher. That was 10 years ago. I'd imagine it's even more of a common occurrence these days. I really hope that it improves over the next few years because children really need to have at least one positive male role model in their lives.

    Although, as long as the influx of male teachers doesn't start until I have a job then it's fine :pac:.


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    #86
    Woodward
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Woodward


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    And you could get run over by a bus tomorrow ...........


    That wouldnt be the fault of a flawed legal system and social biases against men.


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    #87
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,320 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Woodward wrote: »


    That wouldnt be the fault of a flawed legal system and social biases against men.

    No. But it's all part of life. Deal with it instead of blaming everyone else for your misfortunes.


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    #88
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    No. But it's all part of life. Deal with it...
    Ironically, "grow(ing) a pair" isn't dealing with it. Neither is ignoring the problem, which seems to be your suggested solution.

    Make up your mind Gloomtastic, do we "deal with it" as you suggest? or do we follow your example and ignore it?

    A case of "do as I say, not as I do"...


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    #89
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,320 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Zulu wrote: »
    Ironically, "grow(ing) a pair" isn't dealing with it. Neither is ignoring the problem, which seems to be your suggested solution.

    Make up your mind Gloomtastic, do we "deal with it" as you suggest? or do we follow your example and ignore it?

    A case of "do as I say, not as I do"...

    I'm sorry you're right. We shouldn't ignore the problem - we should march, no we should write to, no let's just admit the doubters are right and never go near kids again. We are all bad people who will rape and murder the first kid who comes near us.

    Thank heavens I live in a different world to you guys. It's your kids I feel sorry for....


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    #90
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    You either are a kiddie fiddler or you're not. Who better to know than yourself? If people have nothing better to do with their lives than think ill of others, then that is their problem. Not yours.
    Were that the case, slander and libel would not be actionable in the courts - after all, if someone spreads a rumour that because you helped the neighbours kids at sport, you must be a kiddie fiddler, then it won't affect you. Other neighbours will naturally ignore this. They won't stop their kids playing with your own - they won't ostracise you or your family at all. And certainly they won't turn to violence or other vigilante tactics to get a child molester out of their neighbourhood.

    And that's just the potential effect of slander. More serious is the effect of false accusations. You may have followed the rules, but unfortunately there was no CC-TV around to document this, leaving you in a situation whereby it's your word against a sociopathic ten-year old, and the rest of your life in the balance.

    Read over the thread at the experiences of others; if these are not yours, then ultimately it's only because you've been fortunate, not because you have a clue.
    Trying living your lives as you see fit as opposed to what you think others would like you to be. If you cut out all the intellectual claptrap, it's called growing a pair!
    Intellectual claptrap? There's no claptrap, intellectual or otherwise, in listening to the cautionary experiences of some of the other posters. Indeed, dismissing them, and living instead in some fantasy World whereby what other people say behind your back isn't going to hurt you and that if you're honest nothing bad will ever happen to you is the best claptrap I've heard in quite a while - a combination of naivety and idiocy all wrapped into a perfect package.

    It's very easy to come out with meaningless clichés like telling others to 'grow a pair', especially if you're all right Jack simply because you've not encountered a problem yet, and so are happy to ignore it. It's just not terribly bright.


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    #91
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    Deal with it instead of blaming everyone else for your misfortunes.
    Ahhh, the old macho take it on the chin 'cos real men do, line - a strategy that has successfully convinced generations of men to do phenomenally dumb things for no good reason other than ego.

    At what point do you stop taking it on the chin then? When you're taking it in the ass?


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