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What evidence of Gerry Adams' IRA membership do people need?

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Comments

  • #902
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    So you're telling us that these things were common knowledge, and that you didn't know anything about them.

    Right so.
    Real classy on not admitting misquoting maccored and just pretending it never happened there oscarBravo.


  • #903
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Sand wrote: »
    My opinion on community policing was that it was essentially thuggery and intimidation - no different than a mafia "policing" areas and neighbourhoods it controls.

    However, Adams opinion is not that community policing was in itself wrong. He believes it was a valid response to the situation as he saw it. His judgement is based on the technical and personal capabilities of the IRA to "police" particular crimes like sexual abuse or rape. The ability to determine the capabilities of the IRA to be more or less effective in certain crimes requires much more knowledge than simply knowing that community policing happened.

    After all - what does Gerry Adams know about the men and women of the IRA who investigated these crimes? How does he feel qualified to demean their efforts? As a non member, he knows nothing about the IRA which is a deeply secretive organisation.

    Yet he feels qualified to offer judgements on their ability to handle particular crimes despite having absolutely no qualification to do so. Why isn't an IRA commander offering a view instead of this guy?
    You have missed the point utterly.
    You claimed having opinion and knowledge of "community policing" meant you were most likely a senior IRA member.
    So, you're saying that's what you are now you're demonstrating exactly that?


  • #904
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    Sand wrote: »
    My opinion on community policing was that it was essentially thuggery and intimidation - no different than a mafia "policing" areas and neighbourhoods it controls.

    However, Adams opinion is not that community policing was in itself wrong. He believes it was a valid response to the situation as he saw it. His judgement is based on the technical and personal capabilities of the IRA to "police" particular crimes like sexual abuse or rape. The ability to determine the capabilities of the IRA to be more or less effective in certain crimes requires much more knowledge than simply knowing that community policing happened.

    After all - what does Gerry Adams know about the men and women of the IRA who investigated these crimes? How does he feel qualified to demean their efforts? As a non member, he knows nothing about the IRA which is a deeply secretive organisation.

    Yet he feels qualified to offer judgements on their ability to handle particular crimes despite having absolutely no qualification to do so. Why isn't an IRA commander offering a view instead of this guy?

    If anyone still has a copy of tapes they are probably in a box in Thames House or Holywood. A lot of these investigations would have had oversight


  • #905
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    To gain some political clout? To strengthen themselves for the next election? To tell the voters that the SF party are a bunch of abusers and dont vote for them? I dont know all the whys. Theres many of them.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Why?


  • #906
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    give me 'mafia policing' any day over 'you are a fenian, I will kick the **** out of you anyway' policing.

    Maybe i was a weirdo or something growing up, but I never got the impression I was being intimidated by the 'mafia' IRA. That might have been the way in cities, but in the country I certainly never experienced any kind of intimidation. I think thats the kind of thing that probably did happen in small areas, and then the sunday tabloids went to town on it.
    Sand wrote: »
    My opinion on community policing was that it was essentially thuggery and intimidation - no different than a mafia "policing" areas and neighbourhoods it controls.

    However, Adams opinion is not that community policing was in itself wrong. He believes it was a valid response to the situation as he saw it. His judgement is based on the technical and personal capabilities of the IRA to "police" particular crimes like sexual abuse or rape. The ability to determine the capabilities of the IRA to be more or less effective in certain crimes requires much more knowledge than simply knowing that community policing happened.

    After all - what does Gerry Adams know about the men and women of the IRA who investigated these crimes? How does he feel qualified to demean their efforts? As a non member, he knows nothing about the IRA which is a deeply secretive organisation.

    Yet he feels qualified to offer judgements on their ability to handle particular crimes despite having absolutely no qualification to do so. Why isn't an IRA commander offering a view instead of this guy?


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  • #907
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Real classy on not admitting misquoting maccored and just pretending it never happened there oscarBravo.
    Oh, there's classiness to go around, what with all the "rape victim must be being manipulated by sinister political forces because the alternative is the unthinkable notion that a Republic politician could ever possibly have lied" stuff that's going on.


  • #908
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    jaysus - with statements like that I hope you didnt waste all your classiness.

    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Oh, there's classiness to go around, what with all the "rape victim must be being manipulated by sinister political forces because the alternative is the unthinkable notion that a Republic politician could ever possibly have lied" stuff that's going on.


  • #909
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Oh, there's classiness to go around, what with all the "rape victim must be being manipulated by sinister political forces because the alternative is the unthinkable notion that a Republic politician could ever possibly have lied" stuff that's going on.

    I said it earlier...just because she was raped (and I believe she probably was) does not mean everything she says is true.


  • #910
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    ... though do feel free to point out where I said that a rape victim must be manipulated etc etc.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Oh, there's classiness to go around, what with all the "rape victim must be being manipulated by sinister political forces because the alternative is the unthinkable notion that a Republic politician could ever possibly have lied" stuff that's going on.


  • #911
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    maccored wrote: »
    To gain some political clout? To strengthen themselves for the next election? To tell the voters that the SF party are a bunch of abusers and dont vote for them? I dont know all the whys. Theres many of them.
    My question is, what's Mairia's motive for allowing herself to be manipulated into lying?

    Because the claim that she's being manipulated is nothing more than a thin veneer over the claim that she's a liar.
    maccored wrote: »
    Maybe i was a weirdo or something growing up, but I never got the impression I was being intimidated by the 'mafia' IRA.
    Maybe if you were raped and the "community police" dealt with it by forcing you to confront your rapist, you might have felt somewhat differently.


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  • #912
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I said it earlier...just because she was raped (and I believe she probably was) does not mean everything she says is true.
    I guess it's easier for some people to believe that a rape victim is a liar than that a politician is.
    maccored wrote: »
    ... though do feel free to point out where I said that a rape victim must be manipulated etc etc.
    maccored wrote: »
    Personally I think she's being manipulated by other people with other agendas.


  • #913
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    My question is, what's Mairia's motive for allowing herself to be manipulated into lying?

    Because the claim that she's being manipulated is nothing more than a thin veneer over the claim that she's a liar.
    You have been given several possible reasons...are you looking for the actual one? I don't think you'll get that unless M Cahill tells us.
    Maybe if you were raped and the "community police" dealt with it by forcing you to confront your rapist, you might have felt somewhat differently.
    That is if that is true of course. If it is, it was totally wrong.


  • #914
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Oh, there's classiness to go around, what with all the "rape victim must be being manipulated by sinister political forces because the alternative is the unthinkable notion that a Republic politician could ever possibly have lied" stuff that's going on.
    Not content with lame mis-quoting, you've graduated to doing that pathetic thing of putting things in quotes that nobody actually said.
    Care to attach a name to that completely fabricated "quote" of yours, or just some invented nonsense you hope will stick to somebody here because you don't really have an argument?


  • #915
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I guess it's easier for some people to believe that a rape victim is a liar than that a politician is.

    I don't know if Adams is lying or not and never said I believed him. Stop jumping to conclusions. I am not prepared to hang any man or woman based on allegations.
    If GA is lying he needs to go and needs to face a trial. But we need it to be proved.


  • #916
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Not content with lame mis-quoting, you graduated to doing that pathetic thing of putting things in quotes that nobody actually said.
    Care to attach a name to that completely fabricated "quote" of yours, or just some invented nonsense you hope will stick to somebody here because you don't really have a argument?
    It's called paraphrasing. Look it up.


  • #917
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I don't know if Adams is lying or not and never said I believed him.
    But you do believe that Mairia is lying (apart from about the rape)?


  • #918
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    But you do believe that Mairia is lying (apart from about the rape)?

    I don't know, she needs to publish the 'irrefutable evidence' she says she has. We have a media and political circus around 'allegations'. and that is what it will remain until we get some proof. I'm not holding my breath at this stage.


  • #919
    Johngoose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Johngoose


    Gerry with a balaclava on would be enough...oh wait...


  • #920
    Johngoose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Johngoose


    I suppose Nixon said he wasn't a crook and Clinton said he didn't have sexual relations with Lewinski...but Gerry is believable.


  • #921
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I don't know...

    You've stated confidently that you believe that she's being manipulated. What are you trying to claim, that you think she might have been manipulated into telling the truth?


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  • #922
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You've stated confidently that you believe that she's being manipulated. What are you trying to claim, that you think she might have been manipulated into telling the truth?

    She clearly wants GA to take the fall for this over and above her rapist who she allowed to walk free from a court of law (the only place she was going to get justice.
    In all her interviews I hace only heard her talk about her attacker once, the IRA squad a few times and GA over an over again.
    Michael Martin choose GA as the point of his attack, not mentioning the rapist at all.
    Ditto Enda.
    Ditto numerous Sindo articles.
    The only person whose core response to Maria Cahill was that 'justice should be done for the crime of rape committed against her, was Peter Robinson.

    Priorities are skewed completely on this, hence my in-built bull**** detector is irritable


  • #923
    Fuzzy Clam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,293 ✭✭✭Fuzzy Clam


    maccored wrote: »
    Theres no better sign of someone who's lost the argument than that statement.

    You don't believe what many consider is common knowledge about Gerry because there's no proof? Correct?

    I haven't lost any argument with you, that's for sure. You've lost your own argument.


  • #924
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,286 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Who says she's not "after" the rapist?

    Are you suggesting Adams is the rapist?


  • #925
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    ...her rapist who she allowed to walk free from a court of law...
    I guess the victim only has herself to blame.


  • #926
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I guess the victim only has herself to blame.

    Is it my fault he is free, is it Gerry Adams?


  • #927
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Are you suggesting Adams is the rapist?

    Of course he isn't suggesting that.
    Is there no end to the mental gymnastics that people are willing to engage in on this issue!


  • #928
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It's called paraphrasing. Look it up.
    Like that time earlier you said, to paraphrase "I just make stuff up and I don't care if it's nonsense".
    You have a (ridiculous) paraphrase. Now, any chance you could go the whole hog and tell us who you are paraphrasing?


  • #929
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I guess the victim only has herself to blame.
    Said nobody except you. So you must be the one who believes it.


  • #930
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    I would assume, considering this went to court and got nowhere, she holds an anger for the republican movement. an understandable anger mind you. i dont think she cares how she gets a platform to get her point across, she just wants to find justice. I dont blame her for wanting justice. The courts though is the place for that.

    this way - trial by media, and as entertaining as X Factor for the redtops - maria gets to make her point publicly, and other people make political gains out of it.

    I dont understand how you think that means she's lying all the same. When she says she was abused and raped, I believe her.


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    My question is, what's Mairia's motive for allowing herself to be manipulated into lying?

    Because the claim that she's being manipulated is nothing more than a thin veneer over the claim that she's a liar.

    Maybe if you were raped and the "community police" dealt with it by forcing you to confront your rapist, you might have felt somewhat differently.


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  • #931
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Listen fella, if you want to talk paranormal research and debate its finer points - theres a forum for that. If you want to continually lose debates about politics, theres this forum. Two different things.

    Fuzzy Clam wrote: »
    You don't believe what many consider is common knowledge about Gerry because there's no proof? Correct?

    I haven't lost any argument with you, that's for sure. You've lost your own argument.


  • #932
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Said nobody except you. So you must be the one who believes it.

    You clearly missed the post I quoted where Happyman42 blamed the rape victim.


  • #933
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    maccored wrote: »
    I dont understand how you think that means she's lying all the same. When she says she was abused and raped, I believe her.

    But if it's a question of whether a rape victim or a politician is lying, you choose to believe the politician?


  • #934
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You clearly missed the post I quoted where Happyman42 blamed the rape victim.

    You never answered earlier...is everything a rape victim says necessarily true?


  • #935
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    What kind of bizarre statement is that? When theres more than one question theres more than one answer - or didnt that occur to you. I dont think theres anyone saying they dont believe her statement that she was raped. Is there? Besides you that is, since you seem to keep putting it into posts.

    Is there a SF politican claiming she wasnt raped? If not, then who is this politician we're meant to be agreeing with?
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    But if it's a question of whether a rape victim or a politician is lying, you choose to believe the politician?


  • #936
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You clearly missed the post I quoted where Happyman42 blamed the rape victim.
    Let me guess, you paraphrased it, saying "I'm an evil SF lover and rape victims deserve it"? You know, the usual way you seem to quote things?


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  • #937
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You never answered earlier...is everything a rape victim says necessarily true?
    Of course not. Personally, I find Mairia Cahill more credible than Gerry Adams on this issue, not least because the Sinn Féin line seems to evolve as facts emerge.

    If you choose to believe a politician over a rape victim, that's up to you.


  • #938
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    maccored wrote: »
    Is there a SF politican claiming she wasnt raped?

    No. There's a SF politician claiming that he met with a rape victim and didn't discuss the rape.

    Maybe they did, indeed, discuss the weather. One of them is lying. I know which one I find more credible. Clearly so do you, and the one you can't bring yourself to believe could possibly be lying is the politician.


  • #939
    Fuzzy Clam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,293 ✭✭✭Fuzzy Clam


    maccored wrote: »
    Listen fella, if you want to talk paranormal research and debate its finer points - theres a forum for that. If you want to continually lose debates about politics, theres this forum. Two different things.

    Don't "listen fella" me. It doesn't work, which, when you mature a bit, you will realise.

    When you convince me that Gerry wasn't in the IRA, (the thread subject, in case you've forgotten), then i'll admit to having "lost" the argument, whatever that is. Until then, I'll comment on this thread as I see fit.

    Are you going to answer my question?


  • #940
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Of course not. Personally, I find Mairia Cahill more credible than Gerry Adams on this issue, not least because the Sinn Féin line seems to evolve as facts emerge.

    If you choose to believe a politician over a rape victim, that's up to you.

    Did I not say before that I don't know who is telling the truth, that I need to see the evidence?
    Are you reading posts at all?

    There is evidence somewhere, this alleged squad of interrogators where taken to court. I'd like to see that evidence at least.
    Something over and above allegations. Just think of all the people in the world who would have spent their lives in jail or would have executed if we handed down justice based on allegations.
    Getting the picture now?


  • #941
    Fuzzy Clam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,293 ✭✭✭Fuzzy Clam


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    In all her interviews I hace only heard her talk about her attacker once, the IRA squad a few times and GA over an over again.

    That is true, I think.
    She has also brought up other instances of abuse in the organisation (not specifics).
    I don't know, maybe she's trying to be a martyr.


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  • #942
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Fuzzy Clam wrote: »
    That is true, I think.
    She has also brought up other instances of abuse in the organisation (not specifics).
    I don't know, maybe she's trying to be a martyr.
    If she actually has anything worth saying I'd prefer if she'd name the people currently being abused or at risk of abuse instead of banging on about Gerry Adams.


  • #943
    Fuzzy Clam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,293 ✭✭✭Fuzzy Clam


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    If she actually has anything worth saying I'd prefer if she'd name the people currently being abused or at risk of abuse instead of banging on about Gerry Adams.

    If she's telling the truth about Gerry, then she has a perfect right to "bang on" about it until the truth comes out, one way or the other.


  • #944
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Fuzzy Clam wrote: »
    If she's telling the truth about Gerry, then she has a perfect right to "bang on" about it until the truth comes out, one way or the other.
    Whether she is or not, I'd prefer if she brought her own rapist to justice and tried to prevent further abuse by outing those she believes responsible.
    She can say what she likes about Adams, but I know I'd be after the abusers first. She doesn't seem to be.


  • #945
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    what was your question? What would I know about politics because I have an interest in the paranormal? Thats the only vague question like thing I've seen you come up with.

    Fuzzy Clam wrote: »
    Don't "listen fella" me. It doesn't work, which, when you mature a bit, you will realise.

    When you convince me that Gerry wasn't in the IRA, (the thread subject, in case you've forgotten), then i'll admit to having "lost" the argument, whatever that is. Until then, I'll comment on this thread as I see fit.

    Are you going to answer my question?


  • #946
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    If she actually has anything worth saying I'd prefer if she'd name the people currently being abused or at risk of abuse instead of banging on about Gerry Adams.

    She should name people being abused??
    What kind of f*cked up world do you live in where you think that would be appropriate?


  • #947
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    This has been pointed out on numerous occasions to you - no-one (as far as I can tell) is claiming Maria Cahill wasnt raped, and yet you keep banging on with this guff.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I guess it's easier for some people to believe that a rape victim is a liar than that a politician is.


  • #948
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    OMD wrote: »
    She should name people being abused??
    What kind of f*cked up world do you live in where you think that would be appropriate?

    Nobody is saying that she should do that publically, but has any 'journalist' asked her has she passed this information to the proper authorities?
    She doesn't seem overly concerned that her own attacker is walking free and the impression is that she is more concerned that Gerry Adams might be telling lies about a much much lesser issue. Now that is 'f*cked up', wouldn't you agree?
    Maybe I am wrong, but isn't that the only conclusion you can draw at the moment.


  • #949
    alias no.9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Whether she is or not, I'd prefer if she brought her own rapist to justice and tried to prevent further abuse by outing those she believes responsible.
    She can say what she likes about Adams, but I know I'd be after the abusers first. She doesn't seem to be.

    In her interview on the last word yesterday she mentioned how prosecution witnesses have withdrawn their evidence following republican intimidation.
    She also stated that she was so in fear for her own life, that she would be executed for being an informer if she spoke to the PSNI that she felt the only thing that offered her any element of protection was going public before going to the police.
    She said that the so called community policing by the IRA was instigated by them, not her, and resulted in her being forced to sit in a room with her attacker while he verbally abused her. The house arrest of the perpetrator only happened when another victim of this man came forward and low and behold as soon as she went to the PSNI the perpetrator somehow escaped from house arrest and fled the junction.
    I really don't see how this woman can have any beef with the republican leadership, none at all.


  • #950
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    OMD wrote: »
    She should name people being abused??
    What kind of f*cked up world do you live in where you think that would be appropriate?
    Name them to the police.
    I apologise if the blindingly obvious is too complicated for you.


  • #951
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    alias no.9 wrote: »
    In her interview on the last word yesterday she mentioned how prosecution witnesses have withdrawn their evidence following republican intimidation.
    She also stated that she was so in fear for her own life, that she would be executed for being an informer if she spoke to the PSNI that she felt the only thing that offered her any element of protection was going public before going to the police.
    She said that the so called community policing by the IRA was instigated by them, not her, and resulted in her being forced to sit in a room with her attacker while he verbally abused her. The house arrest of the perpetrator only happened when another victim of this man came forward and low and behold as soon as she went to the PSNI the perpetrator somehow escaped from house arrest and fled the junction.
    I really don't see how this woman can have any beef with the republican leadership, none at all.
    And yet she won't name the rapist, or any of the other alleged criminals she apparently knows of, not even to protect past and future victims.
    I notice you have also completely failed to explain why. Join the club.


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