Iarnród Éireann charging adult fare on school trip

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 10:26am #1

Iarnrod eireann charged me and 60 other TY students adult fare today on a school trip from greystones to Tara street because we didn't have id. Can they really expect 15 year olds to carry Id to prove they aren't 16. We all arrived expecting to pay €3.60 and were charged €8.20 meaning many people didnt have lunch money. Worst of all the guy Standing beside the ticket man started joking about us all drinking in temple bar and saying that's why were paying full price. Anyone know where I go to get a refund and letter of apologies from this fail of a company?

Snakeblood · 22-11-2011 10:28am

nimrod86 wrote: »

Iarnrod eireann charged me and 60 other TY students adult fare today on a school trip from greystones to Tara street because we didn't have id. Can they really expect 15 year olds to carry Id to prove they aren't 16. We all arrived expecting to pay €3.60 and were charged €8.20 meaning many people didnt have lunch money. Worst of all the guy Standing beside the ticket man started joking about us all drinking in temple bar and saying that's why were paying full price. Anyone know where I go to get a refund and letter of apologies from this fail of a company?

You should have tried to buy booze off them.

KerranJast · 22-11-2011 10:32am

You should have had ID. Pretty simple.

Absurdum · 22-11-2011 10:34am

nimrod86 wrote: »

Anyone know where I go to get a refund and letter of apologies from this fail of a company?

no idea bro, definitely not their website as a starting point anyways

ScouseMouse · 22-11-2011 10:35am

Did you not pre-book or at least notify them you were coming?

With a school party of that size you will get a group discount. Were you in any kind of uniform? Could you show you were entitled to school rate?

Who organised that?

If you complain now, you may get some sort of a refund but that is the worst kind of organisation I have ever heard of.

biko · 22-11-2011 10:37am

AH->Commuting

loobylou · 22-11-2011 11:34am

KerranJast wrote: »

You should have had ID. Pretty simple.

So you now need a passport to go to Dublin? Don't know what other type of ID would be acceptable, they're too young to have a drivers license or Garda ID.

OP, probably not much you can do about it, the staff at Greystones station are a law unto themselves.
Hope you get some satisfaction though.

ScouseMouse · 22-11-2011 11:41am

loobylou wrote: »

So you now need a passport to go to Dublin? Don't know what other type of ID would be acceptable, they're too young to have a drivers license or Garda ID.

No, you dont need a passport to go to dublin, but to claim a ticket discount, you do have to show you are entitled to it.

Was it 60 students in uniform with a teacher?

Or was it 60 people turning up saying "I am a child/student I am entitled to a discount!"

So OP, what exactly did you do ?

AlekSmart · 22-11-2011 11:47am

nimrod86 wrote: »

Iarnrod eireann charged me and 60 other TY students adult fare today on a school trip from greystones to Tara street because we didn't have id. Can they really expect 15 year olds to carry Id to prove they aren't 16. We all arrived expecting to pay €3.60 and were charged €8.20 meaning many people didnt have lunch money. Worst of all the guy Standing beside the ticket man started joking about us all drinking in temple bar and saying that's why were paying full price. Anyone know where I go to get a refund and letter of apologies from this fail of a company?

In respect of the allegation of IE's failure then perhaps a brief perusal of the NTA's website may help.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/rail_rights.html

However it's a generally held point regarding School Child Fares that they are only available to cover mainstream classes between set times and do NOT cover extra-curricular activites such as Sports or Study Time.

A Schoolchild or Child fare is a concession on the part of the operator and therefore it may impose whatever conditions it feels are necessary,proof of age is one quite logical one I feel.

The Dublin Bus approach is outlined here...

Children's Fares
One child under 3 years of age is carried free if accompanied by and in the charge of a fare paying passenger, provided that the child does not occupy a seat to the exclusion of another passenger. Children under 16 years of age are charged fares in accordance with the child or school child fare scale. An official statement confirming a child's age may be obtained at Dublin Bus, 59 Upper O'Connell Street, on production of the appropriate birth certificate.

To provide maximum accommodation for passengers, children are requested, where possible, to sit three to a double seat. In the event of a dispute over entitlement to child fares, passengers will be asked to produce evidence of their age. The decision of the Dublin Bus official will apply to these passengers. Appeals against such decisions may be made to our Head Office at %9 Upper O'Connell Street, (01) 8734222.

* Schoolchild Cash Fares apply only during normal school terms, for travel between home and school Monday to Friday up to 17:00hrs and on Saturday up to 13:30hrs

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Bye-Laws/Fares/

Each passenger shall produce evidence of his eligibility for travel at concessionary rates where he claims to be so entitled.

I would see this little tableau as having provided a belated introduction to the wider world of Public Transport full stop.

I'd go so far as to suggest that it may well be the most memorable of the groups TY adventures in some ways and therefore a valuable learning experience.

I do find it slightly worrying that out of a group of 61,NONE of them had any evidence of age ?

A small bit of forward planning and a phone call on the part of the Trip organizer could have resulted in a much smoother,faster and cheaper journey for the group.

As for the Smart Alekry of the IE Staff Member,that was totally out of order,but should be treated as a seperate issue for reportage purposes !

Dodge · 22-11-2011 12:08pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

I do find it slightly worrying that out of a group of 61,NONE of them had any evidence of age ?

In fairness, what age ID would a 15 year old have apart from a passport, and they wouldn't be bringing that with them.

superscouse has it spot on about the organisation of the trip. 60+ kids and no supervision or pre-planning?

ScouseMouse · 22-11-2011 12:19pm

Dodge wrote: »

AlekSmart wrote: »

I do find it slightly worrying that out of a group of 61,NONE of them had any evidence of age ?[/UOTE]

In fairness, what age ID would a 15 year old have apart from a passport, and they wouldn't be bringing that with them.

superscouse has it spot on about the organisation of the trip. 60+ kids and no supervision or pre-planning?

This story is so mad, I wonder if its a wind up. Surely there is no way 60+ kids/students/people would just turn up and pay on a trip.

Organisation here seems to no existant.

loobylou · 22-11-2011 1:03pm

What proof of age could they provide?
Even though it was a school trip they were not attempting to get a schoolchild fare (for which there is an IE identity scheme in place), just an ordinary child fare.
Doubtless some of them are over 16, but surely it is up to IE to find and penalise fare evaders, not to assume that everyone is one and treat them accordingly.
Also I don't think it unusual for a group of TY students to travel unaccompanied,they hardly need a teacher as a babysitter.

ScouseMouse · 22-11-2011 1:20pm

loobylou wrote: »

What proof of age could they provide?
Even though it was a school trip they were not attempting to get a schoolchild fare (for which there is an IE identity scheme in place), just an ordinary child fare.
Doubtless some of them are over 16, but surely it is up to IE to find and penalise fare evaders, not to assume that everyone is one and treat them accordingly.
Also I don't think it unusual for a group of TY students to travel unaccompanied,they hardly need a teacher as a babysitter.

To claim a discount, surely you need to be able to show entitlement.

If any sane person was organising a trip like this, they would contact IE and let them know they were coming. IE would say grand, out group/child rate is XYZ.

That would have been enough. 60+ people cannot just turn up somewhere and demand a concession. This sounds wackier and wackier the more I think of it.

loobylou · 22-11-2011 1:24pm

This is the DART, they don't do bookings.

Rasmus · 22-11-2011 1:30pm

Was your teacher not able to vouch for you OP? And excuse my ignorance, but what are TY students?

loobylou · 22-11-2011 1:31pm

Rasmus wrote: »

And excuse my ignorance, but what are TY students?

Transition year.

ScouseMouse · 22-11-2011 1:48pm

loobylou wrote: »

This is the DART, they don't do bookings.

Yes they do.

Third paragraph down.

ScouseMouse · 22-11-2011 1:53pm

I blame the school on this. What ejit organised it?

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 4:24pm

We were on a school trip and we were with teachers. They tried to vouch and the guy replied "i can see it in them they are all 16". We werent in uniform but we have used the dart for trips before without any problem. As someone above said, what kind of id do they expect 15 year olds to have. If they want us to have.id they should have an id scheme we can apply to.

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 4:25pm

We were on a school trip and we were with teachers. They tried to vouch and the guy replied "i can see it in them they are all 16". We werent in uniform but we have used the dart for trips before without any problem. As someone above said, what kind of id do they expect 15 year olds to have. If they want us to have.id they should have an id scheme we can apply to.

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 4:25pm

We were on a school trip and we were with teachers. They tried to vouch and the guy replied "i can see it in them they are all 16". We werent in uniform but we have used the dart for trips before without any problem. As someone above said, what kind of id do they expect 15 year olds to have. If they want us to have.id they should have an id scheme we can apply to.

schemingbohemia · 22-11-2011 4:34pm

Heard you the first time!;)

Tell your teacher - "Fail to prepare, prepare to Fail" - that's what they did, not organised enough. In fairness the school should have organised a group deal for you and saved you all a lot of money, instead of costing you money.

foggy_lad · 22-11-2011 4:45pm

To be fair to Irish Rail staff they are entitled to request proof of age where there is any question of a childs age and it is up to the child and their parent/guardian/teacher to provide this proof of age.

Also most TY students would be 16 and those who are not yet 16 should know to have proof of age when using the bus or dart especially when living so near to Dublin.

I remember being asked for proof of age for almost every journey until the conductors got to know us on the 66 bus 25 years ago so this is nothing new!(going ustairs to smoke way back then didn't help getting the reduced fare:D)

ScouseMouse · 22-11-2011 4:52pm

A simple call or fax from the school would have sorted you all out (and anyone else on the trip).

Faced with a large party like that, even fecking Ryanair will give you a discount !

Badly organised, nothing else.

n97 mini · 22-11-2011 4:53pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

However it's a generally held point regarding School Child Fares that they are only available to cover mainstream classes between set times and do NOT cover extra-curricular activites such as Sports or Study Time.

15 year olds are still entitled to under 16 fares.

foggy_lad · 22-11-2011 5:16pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

However it's a generally held point regarding School Child Fares that they are only available to cover mainstream classes between set times and do NOT cover extra-curricular activites such as Sports or Study Time.

A Schoolchild or Child fare is a concession on the part of the operator and therefore it may impose whatever conditions it feels are necessary,proof of age is one quite logical one I feel.

Just to make one thing very clear, there is a Child fare which a child can avail of for any journey except some special trains, there are also very different scholar/schoolchild tickets which can only be used going between school and home and cant generally be used outside school hours.

https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/ConditionsOfTravel.pdf

31. Children (other than school children)
31.1 Except as may be specified in the publications and notices of, and applicable
to Iarnród Éireann, children “under three years” of age may travel free of
charge when accompanied by an adult passenger holding a valid ticket for the
journey provided such children do not occupy seats that are required for farepaying
passengers; children from their third to their sixteenth birthday are
conveyed at a reduced fare.

32. Children (travelling to and from school only)
32.1 School children’s reduced fares apply to children between their third and
sixteenth birthday travelling between home and school in connection with
normal classes up to17:00 hours, Monday to Friday.
32.2 School children’ reduced fares do not apply to travelling to or from football
matches, plays, films or other extra curricular activities. In such cases,
ordinary children’s fares are applicable.
32.3 School children’s reduced fares are available only during normal school terms
and do not apply to children attending classes outside normal school terms

foggy_lad · 22-11-2011 5:19pm

n97 mini wrote: »

15 year olds are still entitled to under 16 fares.

But where there is doubt about their age it is up to them to prove they are under 16

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 5:30pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Heard you the first time!;)

Sorry, I was using my mobile and it went all weird!

ConTheCat · 22-11-2011 5:34pm

Ty students are mainly 16 though aren't they? I know I was 16 and one of the youngest!

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 5:36pm

ConTheCat wrote: »

Ty students are mainly 16 though aren't they? I know I was 16 and one of the youngest!

Yeah, a fair few were, but there was at least 20-25 of us who aren't. I'm not until next April, another guy I know isn't until June

foggy_lad · 22-11-2011 5:46pm

nimrod86 wrote: »

Yeah, a fair few were, but there was at least 20-25 of us who aren't. I'm not until next April, another guy I know isn't until June

Do you get the Dart or Bus regularly? Do you use the Dart for school? have you never been asked for proof of your age on the Dart or bus before? You really should know to have proof of age to avail of child/schoolchild/scholar fares.

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 5:54pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Do you get the Dart or Bus regularly? Do you use the Dart for school? have you never been asked for proof of your age on the Dart or bus before? You really should know to have proof of age to avail of child/schoolchild/scholar fares.

No, I don't get it to school as I live near my school, but I do use it to go in and out of town and have never experienced this problem before. What I can't understand is why they decided to suddenly do this to so many students who's train was about to leave!!!

Dodge · 22-11-2011 6:01pm

nimrod86 wrote: »

No, I don't get it to school as I live near my school, but I do use it to go in and out of town and have never experienced this problem before. What I can't understand is why they decided to suddenly do this to so many students who's train was about to leave!!!

Presumably they didn't make you arrive at the station as the train was leaving?

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 6:06pm

Dodge wrote: »

Presumably they didn't make you arrive at the station as the train was leaving?

No we were there early enough, but because of arguing a lot of us didn't get tickets until about a minute before the train left. Some of the class and a teacher were already on the train and they were still holding us up. I've just sent a complaint to Irish Rail anyway and am about to send one to The ministers for the environment, transport and education about there being no way for me to prove my age

foggy_lad · 22-11-2011 6:09pm

nimrod86 wrote: »

No, I don't get it to school as I live near my school, but I do use it to go in and out of town and have never experienced this problem before. What I can't understand is why they decided to suddenly do this to so many students who's train was about to leave!!!

Obviously they were correctly assuming that so many TY students claiming to be Children entitled to child fares was to much to believe and decided to request proof of age from all as they are entitled to do.

but I do use it to go in and out of town and have never experienced this problem before.

Interesting that you refer to it as a problem, The only problem was ye did not have the required proof of age. you may be 15 or even 13 but if the Irish Rail employee does not agree it is up to you to prove your age and frankly not carrying this proof of age when you use the dart on a regular basis is your own problem and not one created in any way by Irish Rail.

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 6:21pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Interesting that you refer to it as a problem, The only problem was ye did not have the required proof of age. you may be 15 or even 13 but if the Irish Rail employee does not agree it is up to you to prove your age and frankly not carrying this proof of age when you use the dart on a regular basis is your own problem and not one created in any way by Irish Rail.

But what ID can they expect me to carry? I don't drive, pay bills, many classmates don't have passports, I certainly am not bringing either my passport or even a scan of it with me on the dart or into town. That's my personal information which I don't want to fall into the wrong hands

n97 mini · 22-11-2011 6:26pm

ConTheCat wrote: »

Ty students are mainly 16 though aren't they? I know I was 16 and one of the youngest!

My daughter is in TY. Her and most of her mates are 15. (In fact they might all be 15).

n97 mini · 22-11-2011 6:30pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

The only problem was ye did not have the required proof of age. you may be 15 or even 13 but if the Irish Rail employee does not agree it is up to you to prove your age

Think about what you are saying: That the IE guy's position was that every single one of them was lying including the teachers!

I prefer to take the view that he had a uniform on and was suffering from the associated power trip.

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 6:33pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Think about what you are saying: That the IE guy's position was that every single one of them was lying including the teachers!

I prefer to take the view that he had a uniform on and was suffering from the associated power trip.

That's basically exactly it, he was rude and incompetent as far as I'm concerned.

But it does raise the issue of a National ID for children and adults

foggy_lad · 22-11-2011 6:38pm

nimrod86 wrote: »

But what ID can they expect me to carry? I don't drive, pay bills, many classmates don't have passports, I certainly am not bringing either my passport or even a scan of it with me on the dart or into town. That's my personal information which I don't want to fall into the wrong hands

They do't want ID they require proof of your age. How you provide such proof is not their concern.

You could get a Garda age card for a small fee (€5 afaik) which can be used for any other situation where photo id or proof of age is required.

You could bring a birth certificate with you but be prepared to prove you are the person named on it.

You could get the Dublin Bus schoolchild id card which is free afaik and the application form is Here.

You can also get a form from your school office stating that you are a student there and it will most likely have your date of birth on it which may be enough.

foggy_lad · 22-11-2011 6:42pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Think about what you are saying: That the IE guy's position was that every single one of them was lying including the teachers!

I prefer to take the view that he had a uniform on and was suffering from the associated power trip.

The IE staff members position seems to have been if in doubt ask for proof of age and with such a large number of noisy students appearing without notice all requesting child tickets which possibly two thirds were not entitled to anyone would do the same imho.

I would also hold off blaming the school because they most likely told all their students that they would be charged normal child/adult fares dependant on their age. The only mistake the school/teachers made is not booking the trip and getting a proper discount.

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 6:48pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

They do't want ID they require proof of your age. How you provide such proof is not their concern.

You could get a Garda age card for a small fee (€5 afaik) which can be used for any other situation where photo id or proof of age is required. Yes, that is a possible solution, but what I think we need is a card we are all required to have. They can't expect me to go out of my way to say I'm not LYING

You could bring a birth certificate with you but be prepared to prove you are the person named on it. I certainly am not bringing even a copy of this for the same reason as the passport, and then I'm back to the problem of trying to prove I am that person. That then gets into what counts as an ID

You could get the Dublin Bus schoolchild id card which is free afaik and the application form is Here.I might use the bus once a year, so despite being free, it's not worth my while, and that is for Dublin Bus, not Irish Rail. I shouldn't be asked to show that when buying a train ticket

You can also get a form from your school office stating that you are a student there and it will most likely have your date of birth on it which may be enough.

We have to pay a charge for photocopying, It wouldn't be economic for the school to print this for every trip we do. Also, it Isn't really relative what school I go to or whether I'm a student there, I am under 16 and they are overcharging me. They don't even say what they class as ID. I mean they wouldn't take our teachers word, what's to say they won't say its a fake letter

Sorry to seem like I'm arguing with you by the way! My complaint isn't with you, and you have been helpful. But my point is There is no Nationally accepted way for me to prove my age. ( That and I'm really p*ssed off by all this!)

foggy_lad · 22-11-2011 7:04pm

nimrod86 wrote: »

We have to pay a charge for photocopying, It wouldn't be economic for the school to print this for every trip we do. Also, it Isn't really relative what school I go to or whether I'm a student there, I am under 16 and they are overcharging me. They don't even say what they class as ID. I mean they wouldn't take our teachers word, what's to say they won't say its a fake letter

Sorry to seem like I'm arguing with you by the way! My complaint isn't with you, and you have been helpful. But my point is There is no Nationally accepted way for me to prove my age. ( That and I'm really p*ssed off by all this!)

I understand your issue but they are not overcharging you, they offer a reduced fare to passengers under 16 but where there is any doubt about a persons age it is up to them to prove their age.

https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/ConditionsOfTravel.pdf

14.2 Subject to restrictions on certain trains, children from their fifth to their
sixteenth birthday are entitled to discounts on most tickets.
14.3 Where there is a doubt regarding the age qualification, it will be the
responsibility of the passenger to produce satisfactory evidence of age to
secure the reduced fare.

I have listed a few ways that you can prove your age including the form from the school which i imagine they would issue to you once and you will present it as proof when asked and then retain it in case it is required at a later date.

number10a · 22-11-2011 7:06pm

nimrod86 wrote: »

Yeah, a fair few were, but there was at least 20-25 of us who aren't.

If that was the case, the teachers (who do have access to dates of birth) should have had lists of students over 16 and those under 16 and had them in two seperate groups when paying. The students could have been advised of the appropriate fare for their age, and the under 16s could have been told that without ID, they may still be charged the adult rate so to be prepared for this. At least then when the IÉ workers see a bit of initiative and help in dealing with a group of 60 they might have been a bit more co-operative. A little bit of organisation can go a very long way.

The alternative of using ID is fairly difficult for a 15 year old considering the only state-issued ID you can have at that age is a passport and not every family will have been able to take their kids on holidays to result in there being a passport sitting at home.

TheChrisD · 22-11-2011 7:10pm

ConTheCat wrote: »

Ty students are mainly 16 though aren't they? I know I was 16 and one of the youngest!

I was 14 for the entirety of TY when I did it...

foggy_lad wrote: »

You could get a Garda age card for a small fee (€5 afaik) which can be used for any other situation where photo id or proof of age is required.

The Garda age card is only for over-18's, because the point of it is to prove you are over-18.

But yes, in the end, there is nothing nationally and well-known that you need to have to prove that you are under 16, particularly since there is no national identity scheme. The DB schoolchild ID thing is only really there if you use DB.

The only IE based alternative is the child smartcard. Again rather useless if you rarely take the train.

There's so much available to prove that you are over 16, but almost nothing (that isn't a risk to be carrying on your person) to prove you are under 16.

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 7:11pm

number10a wrote: »

If that was the case, the teachers (who do have access to dates of birth) should have had lists of students over 16 and those under 16 and had them in two seperate groups when paying. The students could have been advised of the appropriate fare for their age, and the under 16s could have been told that without ID, they may still be charged the adult rate so to be prepared for this. At least then when the IÉ workers see a bit of initiative and help in dealing with a group of 60 they might have been a bit more co-operative. A little bit of organisation can go a very long way.

The alternative of using ID is fairly difficult for a 15 year old considering the only state-issued ID you can have at that age is a passport and not every family will have been able to take their kids on holidays to result in there being a passport sitting at home.

We all knew the fare relative to our ages, that's where part of the problem was, some only brought enough for the fare and a cheap lunch. And as I said before, it's never been an issue before.

I agree totaly about the passports too!

number10a · 22-11-2011 7:11pm

TheChrisD wrote: »

I was 14 for the entirety of TY when I did it...

So you started Junior Infants at the age of 2?

TheChrisD · 22-11-2011 7:13pm

number10a wrote: »

So you started Junior Infants at the age of 2?

Birthday's in July, started Junior having just gone 4, skipped Senior and was put straight up into 1st class. Thus starting 1st year at 11, and doing my Leaving before my 17th birthday.

saa · 22-11-2011 7:14pm

Some schools have date of births on their ID cards but not all.
I agree there should be some of ID for 12-16 year olds for travel,
but OP should know there is usually an argument at ticket offices, they can't tell if someone is 15,16, or 17 looking for a child ticket.

nimrod86 · 22-11-2011 7:14pm

Also, I said this in my e-mail to the ministers, why are a semi-state body allowed to charge a 16 year old an adult rate when the government and state still sees them a a child?

foggy_lad · 22-11-2011 7:19pm

number10a wrote: »

If that was the case, the teachers (who do have access to dates of birth) should have had lists of students over 16 and those under 16 and had them in two seperate groups when paying. The students could have been advised of the appropriate fare for their age, and the under 16s could have been told that without ID, they may still be charged the adult rate so to be prepared for this. At least then when the IÉ workers see a bit of initiative and help in dealing with a group of 60 they might have been a bit more co-operative. A little bit of organisation can go a very long way.

The alternative of using ID is fairly difficult for a 15 year old considering the only state-issued ID you can have at that age is a passport and not every family will have been able to take their kids on holidays to result in there being a passport sitting at home.

At this level the teachers usually leave it up to the individual students to find out and pay their own fare, except maybe for special needs students who may need some assistance, I would expect even primary school children would be able to do this if they lived along the dart line, I am also thinking that teachers would have warned those over 16 that they would have to pay adult fares as these outings are all about safety and organisation and preparation is usually spot on..

a birth certificate is also state issued and is usually accepted as proof of age as well as most schools will issue a letter of enrollment stating that the child attends the school and this could alse contain the date of birth and may be acceptable.

Iarnród Éireann charging adult fare on school trip

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