Re: Adolf Hitler

Fratton Fred · 30-04-2015 9:05am

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Right, so we've got Jude Law (once you hire him a nanny he's on board), I'm in touch with Bill Murray's pizza delivery guy and Bill's up for it once we provide mermaids. Bruno Ganz has expressed interest in the Hitler role so we'll have to do a Hitler does Iceland segment - I'm thinking Bill on acid here.
Yes, we have people. George is being evasive about WW2 things but I'll convince the lawyer chick to toss the bum for a month or so. 5 star in Reykjavik will swing his vote. We are a go.

Definitely needs Zombies in there somewhere.

FloatingVoter · 30-04-2015 1:20pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Definitely needs Zombies in there somewhere.

....they're arriving by UFO in the third act.

sbsquarepants · 30-04-2015 1:25pm

4512 wrote: »

Could Hitler's Nazi regime have lasted longer if it had made the Catholic church and the USSR an ally indtead of an enemy?

I'm confused, yes the USSR (with a bit of help from mother nature) finally put an end to hitlers shenanigans, but what the fúck did the catholic church do? Another mass?

FloatingVoter · 30-04-2015 2:04pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'm confused, yes the USSR (with a bit of help from mother nature) finally put an end to hitlers shenanigans, but what the fúck did the catholic church do? Another mass?

Mainly good in terms of sheltering Jews and facilitating the Allies. They had to pay lip service to Mussolini giving where the Vatican is situated. Rogue elements were involved in running ratlines out of Europe after the war.
In terms of the overall course of the war, they were background actors. It was not a religious war.
There are plenty of reasons to criticise the RCC. WW2 behaviour is way down the list. Their behaviour would be comparable to that of Ireland - neutral but an Allied shade of neutral.

sbsquarepants · 30-04-2015 3:50pm

That's more or less my point - why would it have made a difference whether the church were either for or against or just couldn't give a rats arse, which they basically didn't, every cupboard in the vatican didn't have a couple of jews hiding in or anything like that!

jmayo · 30-04-2015 4:01pm

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Whaaaaaat?

Himmler saw himself as a vanguard to overcome Christianity and replace it with a non-judo centric Germanic way of living. Himmler saw the
Christian principle of mercy as dangerous to his plans.

Reinhard Heydrich left the Catholic church with his wife in 1936, stating it was a dangerous institution to the State.

Hoess turned against religion in his teens after a priest broke the seal of confession, he renounced his religion and joined the Nazi party, but never officially left the church.

Fair enough some of them left or stop practicising, but were any of them excommunicated ?
They were at one stage catholics and were reared as such.

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Goebbels renounced his religion while in University, later refering to Christianity as a "Symptom of decay" due to his Jewish origins. Goebbels led the persecution of clergy and created charges of immorality or currency smuggling. All Christian presses were closed under his watch.

Then again wasn't Goebbels one of those who subscribed to the idea that Christ was an Aryan like all the apostles bar Judas and that they could not possibly be Jewish.

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Start/mid-war might not have been the best time to condemn the guy with the mechanized infantry brigades and the one way train tickets.

They could have stood against them in the early 30s, but they didn't.
In fact in 1933 they legitimised them in government.

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Im pretty sure 100% of those Austrian Catholics, in the nazi party upon being faced with the fuhrers message to kill shortly after Sunday mass where they were told not to kill had a moment where they thought 'yeah but'.

The thing is have the Austrians ever really admitted their part rather than seeing themselves as victims.
Hell some of them really play up how much they suffered under the Soviets, but neglect to mention what they contributed to the German war machine.
Remember how one kurt waldheim got elected president of Austria even though his Balkan war record suddenly came to light.

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The ones I mentioned are the ones that jmayo mentioned. That's why I jumped into the thread, big historical inaccuracies.

How is it a big historical inaccurracy.
They WERE catholics, granted they may not have been practicising and some may have left by the time they did their worse.
But the ones who never officially left were never excommunicated by the church afaik.

And before someone has go I don't think that any of the leading nazis who did the worse were actually atheists.
boorman, mengele, speer, goering were all protestants.

LadyAthame · 30-04-2015 4:57pm

hairyslug wrote: »

It was the older boys that made them do it

Subordinates were not made for insubordination.

Racism and anti-semitism were the basic tenets of the NSDAP and the Nazi regime. Primary education focused on racial biology. Most subjects like geography or maths etc changed focus to race. Imagine focusing on 'racial mathematics'.

LadyAthame · 30-04-2015 5:00pm

Fair enough some of them left or stop practicising, but were any of them excommunicated ?
They were at one stage catholics and were reared as such.

Actually a lot of individual priests are on the list of the righteous.

LadyAthame · 30-04-2015 5:00pm

Not saying the church did not tacitly aid by not taking a stand as an organization but some individuals bravely did.

FloatingVoter · 30-04-2015 6:18pm

The influence of the Catholic Church on WW2 was minimal. They did play a larger role than lets say Buddhists. HQ located in Rome....not a lot of choice. As for the Church of England, you show me one Nazi catholic priest, I'll throw you a C of E vicar with Mosley connections.
Neither your priest nor my vicar mattered in the outcome of events. Stalin was an atheist. Hitler was an atheist. Churchill expressed a wish to believe in something else but ultimately yes....a realist. Roosevelt did what all US prez's do .. show up in a church and daydream.
This is the one war in history that you can definitely say religion was not involved.
For fun, check out what the future John XXIII (the guy gets the gig on the condition he dies soon...whoops!!) was getting up to in Turkey at the time. Spy rings, some junior nitwit called Philby interfering - the wee genial man was on the side of the angels with the bite of a wolf. And probably the dumbest diplomat in history as German ambassador.
If anybody is seriously interested there is a strong chance that Pope Frank is going to open the Vatican files on everything WW2 related. Everybody from drunks like me to Max Hastings is watching that closely.

househero · 30-04-2015 6:35pm

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Mosley connections.

I went to school with his nephew.

He was brought up to be very ashamed of his family. They were quite bonkers. Actually nuts, which might give some explanation to his uncles rather odd views of the world.

The Diabolical Monocle · 30-04-2015 7:38pm

jmayo wrote: »

They could have stood against them in the early 30s, but they didn't.
In fact in 1933 they legitimised them in government.

Nobody could have foreseen in 33 what would come later.

The church hedged its political bets (as is still done by organizations today around election time) in what it thought was just another political re-shuffling.

They're not armed, their power runs parallel to national politics, so they just try to stay on the good side of whoevers in government, keep public favor and live another day, just like any corporation.

This time unfortunately the one the church (along with other big businesses) had backed in order to stay in the publics good books, later went a wee bit too far.

It never purposely conspired with the nazis to bring about the holocaust and ww2. The Catholic church wasn't therefore an ally.

Joseph Goebbels · 30-04-2015 7:41pm

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Nobody could have foreseen in 33 what would come later.

The church hedged its political bets (as is still done by organizations today around election time) in what it thought was just another political re-shuffling.

They're not armed, their power runs parallel to national politics, so they just try to stay on the good side of whoevers in government, keep public favor and live another day, just like any corporation.

This time unfortunately the one the church (along with other big businesses) had backed in order to stay in the publics good books, later went a wee bit too far.

It never purposely conspired with the nazis to bring about the holocaust and ww2. The Catholic church wasn't therefore an ally.

In fairness someone could have read Mein Kampf.

Wurzelbert · 30-04-2015 7:46pm

Joseph Goebbels wrote: »

In fairness someone could have read Mein Kampf.

yes, but i’d say let’s just wait for adolf to post and commment on it all himself…won’t be long now that you have shown up around here…

The Diabolical Monocle · 30-04-2015 7:57pm

Joseph Goebbels wrote: »

In fairness someone could have read Mein Kampf.

eh, eh, how are yis.

be-be-bertie here.

eh, youse lot coulda read eh-eh-economics for dummies before yis voted my bunch of cr-cr-criminals in.

FloatingVoter · 30-04-2015 9:01pm

Thats actually touching on a serious issue. Most people didn't bother reading Mein Kampf. Getting past page 4 or 5 is a struggle. Just like Ulysses (and here the similarities end) it is a book many people claimed to have read but never did. Goering had no fear of books and even he didn't make it all the way through. I believe him on that - he had better stuff to lie about.
The book was written about 1924 by some upstart who had started a riot in a beerhall. It's "importance" has only become evident due to what said upstart became. It definitely should have been compulsory reading in the British Foriegn Office after 1933.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-04-2015 10:19pm

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Nobody could have foreseen in 33 what would come later.

Do you know how many dictators there were in Europe ?

Stuff like Admiral Horthy. An admiral in landlocked hungry :eek:
makes sense in historical context
Like most in the East it was a choice between two evils.

The war might have been different had Italy stayed out like Spain and Portugal.

Pretty much the only democracies left were Scandinavia, countries where they speak French and the Netherlands,
and oddly enough Czechoslovakia. Pity the "Allies" didn't step in then. 1/4 of the tanks and a lot of the trucks used in the invasion of France and most of the guns on the Atlantic Wall came from there. Western Betrayal indeed.

The history of Germany in WWI or the treatment of natives in the tropics would also be cause for alarm.

househero · 30-04-2015 10:31pm

FloatingVoter wrote: »

If it's about the 6 counties, they're welcome to them.

Hahahahahahahahahagagava #coughinglaughing

househero · 30-04-2015 10:34pm

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Thats actually touching on a serious issue. Most people didn't bother reading Mein Kampf. Getting past page 4 or 5 is a struggle. Just like Ulysses (and here the similarities end) it is a book many people claimed to have read but never did. Goering had no fear of books and even he didn't make it all the way through. I believe him on that - he had better stuff to lie about.
The book was written about 1924 by some upstart who had started a riot in a beerhall. It's "importance" has only become evident due to what said upstart became. It definitely should have been compulsory reading in the British Foriegn Office after 1933.

Good book. Hitler was an (evil confused) genius. Reading it you see where and maybe even why he blamed Jewish people.

We also gloss over eugenics was actually a popular idea all over Europe.

kumate_champ07 · 30-04-2015 10:37pm

Hitler relied on slave labour for his war machine, and he didnt look after them properly, they worked till they dropped dead. he also ruled by fear rather than respect, I believe he would never have succeeded.

you have to have an army and civilian population that will get behind you 100% in order to win. ie win hearts and minds

bnt · 30-04-2015 10:40pm

I see everyone's too busy arguing about the Catholic Church to notice today's date: Hitler topped himself 70 years ago today, on 30 April 1945.

househero · 30-04-2015 10:41pm

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Nobody could have foreseen in 33 what would come later.

.

Really?

We are repeating history. The German people accepted Hitler because he fixed their economy. Merkal is raping the Greeks. Public sector pay was cut 75% tax's increased, pensions cut in half, jobs disappeared, high youth unemployment. They will exit the euro, face massive inflation, just like germany last century.

They will vote in an extreme nutter, who promises to fix things, just like Germany last century. Maybe even with Isis or putin ties.

Europe will continue to be stagnated as money moves out, just like last century (UK/Europe to industrialised USA last century... USA/ Europe to digital Asia over the next 20 years). This willfek the Greeks harder, Germany and Europe will squeeze the Greek people further just like the French did to Germany after ww1 and the greeks , possibly along with the Isis controlled area of north Africa and the middle East, Ukraine and Russia will royally kick off.

But nobody seems to give a fek about history repeating its self.

blatantrereg · 30-04-2015 10:46pm

Hitler would still have lost the war.
By 1944 western mainland europe would probably have been German and eastern europe soviet (this ended up happening anyway).
But then they would have encountered an outside context problem in the shape of an atom bomb.

PopePalpatine · 30-04-2015 10:46pm

I'd say a Putin-backed puppet taking charge of Greece would be exponentially more likely than an ISIS takeover. :pac:

househero · 30-04-2015 10:47pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

you have to have an army and civilian population that will get behind you 100% in order to win. ie win hearts and minds

Hahaha Hitler gave the German people food, shelter, fuel, clothes and respect when they were starving and broke after WW1 that is exactly why they gave their lives to fight for an evil dictator.

You can keep your British american failed war political slogans. Hitler gave the Germans the basics to survuve , not a kiss and a cuddle hahahagaga

househero · 30-04-2015 10:49pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'd say a Putin-backed puppet taking charge of Greece would be exponentially more likely than an ISIS takeover. :pac:

I would agree with that.

The whole region looks more unstable now than any other time in the last 70 years.

If there is trouble, that is where it will start.

SaveOurLyric · 30-04-2015 10:52pm

bnt wrote: »

I see everyone's too busy arguing about the Catholic Church to notice today's date: Hitler topped himself 70 years ago today, on 30 April 1945.

RIP.

kumate_champ07 · 30-04-2015 10:52pm

househero wrote: »

Hahaha Hitler gave the German people food, shelter, fuel, clothes and respect when they were starving and broke after WW1 that is exactly why they gave their lives to fight for an evil dictator.

You can keep your British american failed war political slogans. Hitler gave the Germans the basics to survuve , not a kiss and a cuddle hahahagaga

whats it like being a know-it-all?

Smiles35 · 30-04-2015 10:54pm

FloatingVoter wrote: »

The book was written about 1924 by some upstart who had started a riot in a beerhall. It's "importance" has only become evident due to what said upstart became. It definitely should have been compulsory reading in the British Foriegn Office after 1933.

Even the 'some upstart' title is a bit of a fumble though. He was actually put to work with some intelligence crowd to gather info after WW1. So all you would hear from anyone involved with him in that is 'some nobody'.

FloatingVoter · 30-04-2015 10:59pm

househero wrote: »

Hahaha Hitler gave the German people food, shelter, fuel, clothes and respect when they were starving and broke after WW1 that is exactly why they gave their lives to fight for an evil dictator.

You can keep your British american failed war political slogans. Hitler gave the Germans the basics to survuve , not a kiss and a cuddle hahahagaga

He sold them a lie based on a false economy that needed a war to fund itself. There are 6,000,000 souls who would like to know how a manipulator of bullies qualifies as a "genius" - the Germans put on the jackboots and picked up the instruments of torture all be themselves. Without them, he's a sad little man ranting in an empty room.
He gave them an enemy to hate and blame...for them it was the Jews. For you, it's the Brits or Americans. On other threads, its people on welfare. No matter - all you need now is a shiny uniform, a paycheque and someone else's manifesto.

Joseph Goebbels · 30-04-2015 11:03pm

FloatingVoter wrote: »

He sold them a lie based on a false economy that needed a war to fund itself. There are 6,000,000 souls who would like to know how a manipulator of bullies qualifies as a "genius" - the Germans put on the jackboots and picked up the instruments of torture all be themselves. Without them, he's a sad little man ranting in an empty room.
He gave them an enemy to hate and blame...for them it was the Jews. For you, it's the Brits or Americans. On other threads, its people on welfare. No matter - all you need now is a shiny uniform, a paycheque and someone else's manifesto.

He conqueredy Europe, before his health deteriorated I would say he was a genius, he may have had parkinsons when he died.

The_Valeyard · 30-04-2015 11:10pm

Joseph Goebbels wrote: »

He conqueredy Europe, before his health deteriorated I would say he was a genius, he may have had parkinsons when he died.

I thought you died in 1945?

LadyAthame · 30-04-2015 11:12pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'd say a Putin-backed puppet taking charge of Greece would be exponentially more likely than an ISIS takeover. :pac:

Russian govt is much more linked to private economy and oligarchy than we can understand. It's a balance of political , military , economic , business and social power. Financially Russian private business is extremely powerful in cyrpus and Greece. But far more so in cyrpus they got an EU bailout and handed over majority ownership to Russian oligarchs. Greece has not yet done this. Russia waited until the EU bailout to help in Cyprus. Cyprus would be more likely first.

LadyAthame · 30-04-2015 11:13pm

Joseph Goebbels wrote: »

He conqueredy Europe, before his health deteriorated I would say he was a genius, he may have had parkinsons when he died.

You are not funny.

househero · 30-04-2015 11:25pm

FloatingVoter wrote: »

He sold them a lie based on a false economy that needed a war to fund itself. There are 6,000,000 souls who would like to know how a manipulator of bullies qualifies as a "genius" - the Germans put on the jackboots and picked up the instruments of torture all be themselves. Without them, he's a sad little man ranting in an empty room.
He gave them an enemy to hate and blame...for them it was the Jews. For you, it's the Brits or Americans. On other threads, its people on welfare. No matter - all you need now is a shiny uniform, a paycheque and someone else's manifesto.

Its all most people need. Purpose in life.

Not sure what your craic is about people on welfare, no problem with me. The state has failed them, (the vast majority) didn't fail themselves.

I also have no problem with any race, us or UK. But selling a war on the basis of winning hearts and minds is retarded. FYI northern Ireland exercises were supposed to win hearts and minds... Worked didn't it.

It doesn't matter that Hitler sold them a lie, unlike normal politicians, he actually delivered. Germany became prosperous, was able to feed its self and went far beyond.

It doesn't matter if it was right or wrong. He was a genius.

FloatingVoter · 01-05-2015 1:23am

househero wrote: »

Its all most people need. Purpose in life.

Not sure what your craic is about people on welfare, no problem with me. The state has failed them, (the vast majority) didn't fail themselves.

I also have no problem with any race, us or UK. But selling a war on the basis of winning hearts and minds is retarded. FYI northern Ireland exercises were supposed to win hearts and minds... Worked didn't it.

It doesn't matter that Hitler sold them a lie, unlike normal politicians, he actually delivered. Germany became prosperous, was able to feed its self and went far beyond.

It doesn't matter if it was right or wrong. He was a genius.

Are you trolling or just stupid. He borrowed money from countries he later invaded. Dishing out free cash and holidays for all is possible - you just need to fund it. Raping Europe will provide the finance. Our genius wanted a smaller war in 1938 or hold out for larger in the early '40s. Either way he needed the usuals - oil, gold, land and fast. A genius who copies Napoleon's earlier mistake by invading Russia in the face of General Winter and declares war on the US because he's having a tantrum. I've known 10 year old brats with more self restraint.
His fabled Autobahns were well underway before he assumed power - never stopped a politician from assuming credit. They served as handy marching routes. He didn't need to fund the weak or aged - death is a natural process that can be speeded along where required. Hitler didn't magic jobs and money out of his arse - ask anybody with an economics qualification about 1930s Germany and money. Leave the camps, the SS, the whole kit and caboodle out - just ask about the 1930s German economy.

ps: "people on welfare" / single mums / foreigners = easy targets for men with small moustaches.

househero · 01-05-2015 2:43am

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Are you trolling or just stupid. ask anybody with an economics qualification about 1930s Germany
.

Go ahead and ask me then...

Joseph Goebbels · 01-05-2015 7:08am

LadyAthame wrote: »

You are not funny.

Lady if you are looking for a laugh try watching a comedy, an Adolf Hitler thread is probably not the right place to get your giggles.

Banjo String · 01-05-2015 7:27am

bnt wrote: »

I see everyone's too busy arguing about the Catholic Church to notice today's date: Hitler topped himself 70 years ago today, on 30 April 1945.

Yep, and downfall was aired on BBC2 last night, 10pm bit past my bedtime on a school night, but I think I'll enjoy a pilsner watching it tonight via sky+

It may be subtitled, but it's a Dam good show.

Wurzelbert · 01-05-2015 10:11am

Joseph Goebbels wrote: »

[...]an Adolf Hitler thread is probably not the right place to get your giggles.

but his one is...

bnt · 01-05-2015 10:12am

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

RIP.

If you mean "Remain In Pieces", well, that would be more accurate. The Russians moved what was left of his and Eva Braun's remains multiple times, finally burying them (with Goebbels and his family) in a secret location in Magdeburg, where they remained until 1970. Then they were all exhumed, burned again, and the ashes thrown in to a river. All to prevent Hitler's grave from becoming a Nazi shrine.

The Diabolical Monocle · 01-05-2015 11:13am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Do you know how many dictators there were in Europe ?

Stuff like Admiral Horthy. An admiral in landlocked hungry :eek:
makes sense in historical context
Like most in the East it was a choice between two evils.

The war might have been different had Italy stayed out like Spain and Portugal.

Pretty much the only democracies left were Scandinavia, countries where they speak French and the Netherlands,
and oddly enough Czechoslovakia. Pity the "Allies" didn't step in then. 1/4 of the tanks and a lot of the trucks used in the invasion of France and most of the guns on the Atlantic Wall came from there. Western Betrayal indeed.

The history of Germany in WWI or the treatment of natives in the tropics would also be cause for alarm.

What strange reasoning is this ?

Because a dictator existed in Hungary years earlier, therefore the Vatican could have foreseen WW2 and stopped hitler ?? But didn't ... for the craic like.

Then some unrelated filler text. The war might have been different if potato ... ergo the Vatican was a nazi ally.

househero wrote: »

Really?

We are repeating history. The German people accepted Hitler because he fixed their economy. Merkal is raping the Greeks. Public sector pay was cut 75% tax's increased, pensions cut in half, jobs disappeared, high youth unemployment. They will exit the euro, face massive inflation, just like germany last century.

They will vote in an extreme nutter, who promises to fix things, just like Germany last century. Maybe even with Isis or putin ties.

Europe will continue to be stagnated as money moves out, just like last century (UK/Europe to industrialised USA last century... USA/ Europe to digital Asia over the next 20 years). This willfek the Greeks harder, Germany and Europe will squeeze the Greek people further just like the French did to Germany after ww1 and the greeks , possibly along with the Isis controlled area of north Africa and the middle East, Ukraine and Russia will royally kick off.

But nobody seems to give a fek about history repeating its self.

ehhhh yeah rehllay.

So history repeats itself and Merkel is raping the Greeks today, therefore WW2 was foreseeable in 1933.

do you think there was someone with a crystal ball back in the Vatican in '33 who just said 'ah we could stop the whole destruction of Europe thing but fck it'.

Surely you guys are hugely minted by now with your abilities to foresee minor things like the stockmarket let alone forthcoming political changes like the folks back in 33 could.

Bastard church ... didn't even tell us about Lehman brothers.

jmayo · 01-05-2015 3:01pm

LadyAthame wrote: »

Not saying the church did not tacitly aid by not taking a stand as an organization but some individuals bravely did.

And some individuals in occupied countries stood up and gave their lives, just like actually in Germany itself.

FloatingVoter wrote: »

The influence of the Catholic Church on WW2 was minimal. They did play a larger role than lets say Buddhists. HQ located in Rome....not a lot of choice. As for the Church of England, you show me one Nazi catholic priest, I'll throw you a C of E vicar with Mosley connections.

Actually I think the Catholic church and Christian churches helped create some of the mindsets that played a huge part in some of the worse attrocities in WWII i.e. the Holocaust.

My point above was that most if not all of the leaders of Nazi Germany and their satelite states were christian, with a lot of them being catholic.
Yep some of them had left, but how much of their strict christian upbringing influenced their later mindsets ?

And what had the christian churches opinion of Jews being for centuries ?
Jews were to blame for the death of Christ and for centuries it had been ok by the church to discriminate and even violently target jews.

LadyAthame wrote: »

Actually a lot of individual priests are on the list of the righteous.

A lot of individual priests believed in a just God rather than follow the party line.

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

...
you have to have an army and civilian population that will get behind you 100% in order to win. ie win hearts and minds

The German population were very much behind him, otherwise he and his state could not have survived for so long.
Some of them only started getting disillusioned when they started getting their ar**es kicked and were getting the cr** bombed out of them.

househero wrote: »

Really?

We are repeating history. The German people accepted Hitler because he fixed their economy. Merkal is raping the Greeks. Public sector pay was cut 75% tax's increased, pensions cut in half, jobs disappeared, high youth unemployment. They will exit the euro, face massive inflation, just like germany last century.

They will vote in an extreme nutter, who promises to fix things, just like Germany last century. Maybe even with Isis or putin ties.

For someone who talks about learning from history I don't think you know the Greeks history with the muslim world ?

Joseph Goebbels wrote: »

He conqueredy Europe, before his health deteriorated I would say he was a genius, he may have had parkinsons when he died.

He was an idiot who happened to have some very good generals and some damm fine committed soldiers with better equipment.
Once the opposition's superior resources kicked in giving them more and better equipment and they were being led by actual proper generals the Germans started getting their asses kicked.

BTW I think your username is in very poor taste.

newmug · 01-05-2015 3:34pm

Yuri Checkov wrote: »

Hitler had no plans for Ireland.

I am sure Hitler would have won if he had not declared war on the USSR.

Deleted User wrote: »

I always find that weird. Ireland is pretty strategically placed between Britain and America, so surely it would have been the perfect launching pad?

Incorrect. Hitler did indeed have plans for Ireland. He knew we hated england, having just ended a war with them ourselves, so he parachuted a spy into county Meath to talk with the govt. about joining Hitler's side. The spy was arrested and interned in the Curragh for the duration of the war. Dev, fair play to him, was having none of it. But this put him in a prickly situation, which eventually led to him officially declaring Ireland neutral, while unofficially encouraging men to join the allied armies (specifically the US). It was a masterpiece of diplomacy which basically kept us from being pulled in to the war, while still keeping up the image of hating england, while simultaneously backing the allies.

Eugene Norman · 01-05-2015 3:42pm

jmayo wrote: »

Actually I think the Catholic church and Christian churches helped create some of the mindsets that played a huge part in some of the worse attrocities in WWII i.e. the Holocaust.

My point above was that most if not all of the leaders of Nazi Germany and their satelite states were christian, with a lot of them being catholic.
Yep some of them had left, but how much of their strict christian upbringing influenced their later mindsets ?

And what had the christian churches opinion of Jews being for centuries ?
Jews were to blame for the death of Christ and for centuries it had been ok by the church to discriminate and even violently target jews.

If Catholicism were to lead to the Holocaust it would have done so in Catholic countries, particularly Catholic fascist States, or in the Middle Ages. Hitler was engaged in a race war, not a sectarian war, evidenced by the fact that they rounded up Jewish converts to Christianity in Germany and didn't round up converts to Judaism in some countries, where the converts were not original ashkenazi.

For instance in Crimea the religiously Jewish Crimean Karatites were exempt from persecution because they weren't considered racially Jewish.

Wurzelbert · 01-05-2015 3:52pm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

[...]If Catholicism were to lead to the Holocaust it would have done so in Catholic countries, particularly Catholic fascist States, or in the Middle Ages.[...]

check out jewish persecution throughout the centuries...

newmug · 01-05-2015 3:58pm

Did anyone ever hear of one of Hitlers top men who had a cloven foot / bad limp? Who was he?

Wurzelbert · 01-05-2015 3:59pm

newmug wrote: »

Did anyone ever hear of one of Hitlers top men who had a cloven foot / bad limp? Who was he?

goebbels

Eugene Norman · 01-05-2015 4:07pm

Wurzelbert wrote: »

check out jewish persecution throughout the centuries...

Not a holocaust. Not a genocide. The holocaust wasn't based on sectarianism.

jmayo · 01-05-2015 4:50pm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

If Catholicism were to lead to the Holocaust it would have done so in Catholic countries, particularly Catholic fascist States, or in the Middle Ages. Hitler was engaged in a race war, not a sectarian war, evidenced by the fact that they rounded up Jewish converts to Christianity in Germany and didn't round up converts to Judaism in some countries, where the converts were not original ashkenazi.

For instance in Crimea the religiously Jewish Crimean Karatites were exempt from persecution because they weren't considered racially Jewish.

I know you can't say that Catholicism was directly responsible for the actions of hitler and his henchmen, but I believe Catholism and indeed Christianaity had a big influence on western thinking and the Jews had always been scapegoats.
They were always the go to when someone needed to be blamed.
And hitler resorted to a time honoured tradition.

BTW the idea of a yellow badge been worn by Jews to distinguish them was originally a papal backed idea (pope Innocent III) and had been in use in Catholic France, newly conquered Catholic Spain and even in England in the 13th century.
The ironic thing is that German speaking areas were less restrictive.

And speaking of Spain and ironies, the Jews were far better off under Muslim rule in Spain than under Catholic rule.

They were slaughtered by conquering Catholic armies and forced to convert.
In fact one of the reasons for the establishment of the Spainish Inquisition was to make sure the Jews and Muslims who converted to Catholicism were playing ball.

So the idea that Jews were safe in predominantly Catholic countries didn't always hold true.
They might not have been rounded up and sent for industrial level extermination, but life was often precarious depending largely on who was in charge and how well the state was doing.
By the 20th century most countries had ceased actually killing them and they were just discriminated in some ways.

Re: Adolf Hitler

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