Irish history for kids

FinnLizzy · 19-05-2011 1:21am

Elmo wrote: »

Up to what age did you think this? Before 1916 we rule ourselves!

I think outlooks and views should be thought at a later stage, let people form their own opinions based on the facts (The why will be asked). Then they can come on boards and argue to their hearts content

In primary we did Irish Myths and Legends, The Great Famine, O'Connell, but then I had a teacher who brought us to all of the buildings in Dublin city telling us about the architecture, we also did allot about Irish Art Jack B. Yeats. And we play chess! haha! I must be a posh republican.

Imagine trying to teach a child about the Bank Bailout. The English beat up the Irish but before that the Irish had kings and queens up to 1916 then a Biffo starting building and people bought huge houses that they could not afford so their was a Famine and then the English and some other countries gave money to Ireland to feed the poor and we're still suffering 800 years later.

I thought that the whole carry on that was the War of Independence all happened in 1916. I dunno what age I was when I learned the whole 800 years malarky, but I had alot of thinking to be done!
I saw bits of Michael Collins and didn't really know what was going on, but mentions of Irish history involed 1916 so I thought that was where it all kicked off.
And I thought Michael Collins was killed by Brits... black and white (or tanned) history:D

Niles · 19-05-2011 1:37am

Let's see, Cattle raid of Cooley, Strongbow, Battle of the Boyne, Walter Raleigh brought us potatoes, 1798, the Famine. Oh and the Vikings, can't forget the Vikings. I recall a former teacher of mine criticising the history syllabus at primary level as being laid out of chronological order, can't recall if this was the case when I was in primary though.

It's kind of mad the way Irish legends are thought as part of history in primary school with little to indicate that they are fiction. Funnily enough I don't remember 1916 coming up much until secondary school though the Famine and 1798 did (growing up in the south east meant that the latter was practically drummed into us anyway).

Kojak · 19-05-2011 1:41am

We learnt that back in the day everyone believed in leprechauns and listened to the priest for moral advice. Good to see they had they're heads screwed on anyways....

El Siglo · 20-05-2011 9:05am

Sefirah wrote: »

When it comes to learning Irish history, it really does start at home. From a very young age, it was made very clear to me who the 'goodies' and 'baddies' were. Shortly before I was born, my dad (while on duty in the gardaí) was caught up in a terrorist incident which left him unable to work, and certainly his experiences growing up in the north but being forced to leave because of all the hassle and discrimination completely altered my worldview. Secondary school education only confirmed that they were assholes, and it's only now since I've started studying history in UCD that I've become more open to other outlooks

That's called "revisionism", I suppose Susannah Riordan has done the usual Ruth Dudley-Edwards "blood sacrifice" and "undemocratic" actions of the Pearse et al. and the Irish Republican movement of the 1918-21?

stovelid · 20-05-2011 9:20am

My first historical memory was seeing a picture of Kitty O Shea and wondering why Parnell went to all that bother?

up for anything · 20-05-2011 10:08am

It seems to me like I've know each and every penal law since before I could speak thanks to the primary history book of the 60s and 70s. It was pretty much the same one in every school back then. Does anyone remember what it was called?

The same with the geography book - it had all the counties and main towns listed at the back listed with what they produced. Mallow: sugar beet, Carrick-on-Suir: Miloko, etc. I doubt many of those towns listed produce any of the products they used to any more.

The Brigadier · 20-05-2011 10:16am

Bit of a side topic on this but looking back is anyone surprised at the lack of depth in the secondary school history curriculum?

I remember Inter Cert history seemed to start about 1850. It was as if nothing in Ireland happened before then.

Elmo · 20-05-2011 11:13am

The Brigadier wrote: »

I remember Inter Cert history seemed to start about 1850. It was as if nothing in Ireland happened before then.

Junior Cert history covers a huge amount including the Renaissance, archeology, primary & secondary sources, European history, Modern Irish History, The Famine and the Act of Union, flight of the earls etc. It maybe a little to broad.

When I did leaving cert History it began in 1870 and covered both Irish and European History. There was also a second history course before 1870 going back to the Flight of the Earls etc, up to the school which course they taught.

pickarooney · 20-05-2011 11:39am

We started with the stone age, then it skipped onto the Vikings and only a while after did we get to the British. We were well versed in all the treachery and chicanery of the local chieftains pulling fast ones on one another and enlisting the help of the sasanaigh in their internecine squabbles.

Elmo · 20-05-2011 12:04pm

pickarooney wrote: »

We started with the stone age, then it skipped onto the Vikings and only a while after did we get to the British. We were well versed in all the treachery and chicanery of the local chieftains pulling fast ones on one another and enlisting the help of the sasanaigh in their internecine squabbles.

We did the Bronze Age. It wasn't a dull :rolleyes:

Zebra3 · 20-05-2011 12:08pm

stovelid wrote: »

My first historical memory was seeing a picture of Kitty O Shea and wondering why Parnell went to all that bother?

You obviously didn't see the one when her ankles were showing.

Yowzer!!! :pac:

The Brigadier · 20-05-2011 12:36pm

Elmo wrote: »

Junior Cert history covers a huge amount including the Renaissance, archeology, primary & secondary sources, European history, Modern Irish History, The Famine and the Act of Union, flight of the earls etc. It maybe a little to broad.

When I did leaving cert History it began in 1870 and covered both Irish and European History. There was also a second history course before 1870 going back to the Flight of the Earls etc, up to the school which course they taught.

Sorry I mean Irish history pre-1850ish.

It is a long time ago for me but my recollection is of very little Irish history pre the independence movement.

The Brigadier · 20-05-2011 12:40pm

pickarooney wrote: »

We started with the stone age, then it skipped onto the Vikings and only a while after did we get to the British. We were well versed in all the treachery and chicanery of the local chieftains pulling fast ones on one another and enlisting the help of the sasanaigh in their internecine squabbles.

That is pretty much my recollection of things. Vikings to "Brits Out!" in a single page turn.

ImpossibleDuck · 20-05-2011 5:21pm

The Brigadier wrote: »

Bit of a side topic on this but looking back is anyone surprised at the lack of depth in the secondary school history curriculum?

I remember Inter Cert history seemed to start about 1850. It was as if nothing in Ireland happened before then.

Jaysus, the JC History course these days is massive. It's a great course, taught me a lot. Very very long and broad.

The Brigadier · 20-05-2011 5:45pm

I just found the curriculum

http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Post-Primary_Curriculum/Junior_Cycle_Curriculum/Junior_Certificate_Subjects/History/History_Syllabus/History_Syllabus.pdf

It seems to be very short on Irish history other than concerning the struggle for independence.

Niles · 20-05-2011 5:57pm

Elmo wrote: »

Junior Cert history covers a huge amount including the Renaissance, archeology, primary & secondary sources, European history, Modern Irish History, The Famine and the Act of Union, flight of the earls etc. It maybe a little to broad.

When I did leaving cert History it began in 1870 and covered both Irish and European History. There was also a second history course before 1870 going back to the Flight of the Earls etc, up to the school which course they taught.

The new (2006) course is similar, either Early Modern History (up to 1815) or Later Modern History (1815-1993). From what I gather very few schools do the earlier course, don't know if that's down to teacher preference or something else. I did it the year it came out and I think there were less than 40 in the whole country that did the earlier course. Suited me as I preferred later modern history anyway, though I did miss the 1798 rebellion!

K-9 · 21-05-2011 12:56am

The Brigadier wrote: »

I just found the curriculum

http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Post-Primary_Curriculum/Junior_Cycle_Curriculum/Junior_Certificate_Subjects/History/History_Syllabus/History_Syllabus.pdf

It seems to be very short on Irish history other than concerning the struggle for independence.

My recollection was pre 1847/48 tended to be covered more in national school.

NIMAN · 21-05-2011 1:26am

I love the way you hear the phrase "and the British suppressed the Irish language being spoken.." as if Irish people really love to speak Irish.

From what I have seen over my lifetime, 99.9% of Irish people can hardly string an Irish sentence together, hated it at school and have zero interest in ever speaking another word of it.:D

Instead, we are now a nation of English speakers, the most accepted 'world' language, which has no doubt brought great benefits to the country. If we all spoke Irish, do you think eBay, Intel, Google, plus the tourists would be rushing to come here?

charlemont · 21-05-2011 1:42am

My mother would fob me off with useless answers to questions such as.. how did Ireland start speaking Irish ? Dáithí o Donnal came here and spoke it

Who invented the gun ? Colonel Gadaffi

Our first paragraph in a History book in primary school was about the Celts and our first paragraph in secondary was about the 1066 Norman invasion of Britain.

Elmo · 21-05-2011 2:15am

NIMAN wrote: »

I love the way you hear the phrase "and the British suppressed the Irish language being spoken.." as if Irish people really love to speak Irish.

From what I have seen over my lifetime, 99.9% of Irish people can hardly string an Irish sentence together, hated it at school and have zero interest in ever speaking another word of it.:D

Instead, we are now a nation of English speakers, the most accepted 'world' language, which has no doubt brought great benefits to the country. If we all spoke Irish, do you think eBay, Intel, Google, plus the tourists would be rushing to come here?

Most colonizing countries suppressed the native language. Notice how uncolonized countries speak their own language aka most other European countries, notice how most of the main languages spoken around the world are European.

Do you think that other European countries don't have such companies running to them? or that tourist only visit countries where English is spoken?

IMO one of the main problems we have as an English speaking country is our lack of interest in learning other languages after all everyone speaks English. Many non-English speaking countries seem to be doing allot better than Ireland at the moment.

Irish was oppressed as all government business was dealt with through English and school was not taught through the native language. As time went on the language died out in many areas. If Ireland had not been invaded by the English we would have colonized other countries and they would now speak Irish just as many French colonies speak French. Irish was widely spoken in Newfoundland until the 1960s.

The history of the death of a language has nothing to do with the 99.9% of non-speakers.

pragmatic1 · 21-05-2011 2:40am

Didnt much care for history as a child except for dinosaurs. Was very dissapointed when I found out they werent around with cavemen.

pragmatic1 · 21-05-2011 2:58am

NIMAN wrote: »

I love the way you hear the phrase "and the British suppressed the Irish language being spoken.." as if Irish people really love to speak Irish.

From what I have seen over my lifetime, 99.9% of Irish people can hardly string an Irish sentence together, hated it at school and have zero interest in ever speaking another word of it.:D

Instead, we are now a nation of English speakers, the most accepted 'world' language, which has no doubt brought great benefits to the country. If we all spoke Irish, do you think eBay, Intel, Google, plus the tourists would be rushing to come here?

Bilingual kids pick up additional languages easier. And yes the Brits did indeed surpress the language. What part of Donegal are you from.

NIMAN · 21-05-2011 5:19am

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Bilingual kids pick up additional languages easier. And yes the Brits did indeed surpress the language. What part of Donegal are you from.

True.
True.
Not important.

If folk were the least bit interested in learning Irish they would either have listened and concentrated more in school for the 12yrs or whatever that they were learning it. Or they could go to a class and learn it now. But people simply don't want to.

I tend to take a lot of the real anti-British brigade with a pinch of salt. Because they are usually the ones that are passionate about English football teams, British tabloids and the British way of life.

Elmo · 21-05-2011 2:33pm

NIMAN wrote: »

If folk were the least bit interested in learning Irish they would either have listened and concentrated more in school for the 12yrs or whatever that they were learning it. Or they could go to a class and learn it now. But people simply don't want to.

I tend to take a lot of the real anti-British brigade with a pinch of salt. Because they are usually the ones that are passionate about English football teams, British tabloids and the British way of life.

That's not the point we are talking about history pre-1922 before independence. Irish was a much spoken language at that stage of history. Even in Belfast shopper owners would learn Irish to speak with their Irish speaking customers. Irish died out to a large extend because the British (like in many other countries) suppressed the language by not teaching it schools and by running the country through a foreign language, that is where the suppression lies not in who speaks the language now or how many were interested in it as a school subject. Immigration also played a hand. It was a number of issues that could not be resolved by 1922.

I don't follow sport and have less interest in English teams. I would love to see both Soccer organisations in this country take their league more seriously but that is a totally separate part of history. I don't read tabloids and I don't really care about the way of English life as I don't know it. In other words I amn't anti-British in anyway they did allot of good but the also did allot of bad. I disregard anyone who bring up English soccer as a point under which to disregard peoples opinions. We all know that anglo-Americano culture is part of Irish life, its part of globalisation.

pragmatic1 · 21-05-2011 2:47pm

NIMAN wrote: »

True.
True.
Not important.

If folk were the least bit interested in learning Irish they would either have listened and concentrated more in school for the 12yrs or whatever that they were learning it. Or they could go to a class and learn it now. But people simply don't want to.

I tend to take a lot of the real anti-British brigade with a pinch of salt. Because they are usually the ones that are passionate about English football teams, British tabloids and the British way of life.

Its hard to pick up a language of its only taught for about an hour a day. Most of my nieces and nephews are fluent because there parents speak it, the rest go to gaelscoils so they dont find it hard and dont hate it.

Mike 1972 · 21-05-2011 3:01pm

Our history books only went as far as 1966

Elmo · 21-05-2011 3:03pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Our history books only went as far as 1966

Did you live the rest of it!

Nhead · 22-05-2011 2:45am

The Brigadier wrote: »

I just found the curriculum

http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Post-Primary_Curriculum/Junior_Cycle_Curriculum/Junior_Certificate_Subjects/History/History_Syllabus/History_Syllabus.pdf

It seems to be very short on Irish history other than concerning the struggle for independence.

Well in the first year of secondary school students look at
(i) neolitic Ireland
(ii) Bronze Age Ireland
(III)Iron Age Ireland
(iv) Christian Ireland
(v) Medieval Ireland

In second year:

(i) Reformation and how that affected Ireland
(ii) Plantations in Ireland
(iii) revolutions in Ireland in the 18th and 19th century
(iv)Social change in Ireland during the industrial Rev.

It is not till third year that students look at:
(i)political developments in 19th and 20th century Ireland

This syllabus has been in Irish secondary schools since 1990 and imo is varied enough and not only concerned with Irish independence

Kojak · 22-05-2011 3:05am

Nhead wrote: »

Well in the first year of secondary school students look at
(i) neolitic Ireland
(ii) Bronze Age Ireland
(III)Iron Age Ireland
(iv) Christian Ireland
(v) Medieval Ireland

In second year:

(i) Reformation and how that affected Ireland
(ii) Plantations in Ireland
(iii) revolutions in Ireland in the 18th and 19th century
(iv)Social change in Ireland during the industrial Rev.

It is not till third year that students look at:
(i)political developments in 19th and 20th century Ireland

This syllabus has been in Irish secondary schools since 1990 and imo is varied enough and not only concerned with Irish independence

However, in 4th year and LC year, there is a lot more focus on Irish history and the Independence. It also focuses on the effects of the War of Independence on 20th century Ireland.

There is another section of the LC syllabus that is focused on European history (i.e. World War I and II).

later12 · 22-05-2011 3:52am

When I was in primary school I believed that all of this sh1t started with Dermot McMurrough and his slutty daughter, who everybody hated for being blackguards, that Irelands biggest misfortune was its huge population of spies and traitors.
I understood that Oliver Cromwell was the spawn of the devil, which is pretty much standard fare in an Irish primary school history context.
I believed that Robert Emmett and Daniel O Connell were noble heroes (my mind had not yet opened wide enough to ask why their methods opposed one another, and ask if both causes could simultaneously be noble. Parents and teachers didnt help).
As the curriculum progressed, I understood that Parnell was alright but that there was always something vaguely untrustworthy about him, and that the Irish were generally enslaved from the period 1169 to 1916 (the period between 1916 and 1921 was a grey area at that time, despite actually being one of the most crucial)

Later I started reading comprehensive biographies of some of these men, most particularly Oliver Cromwell, Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmett, Parnell and John Redmond, and I began to realise that my education, both primary and secondary had left out vast chapters on who these men really were, and failed to provide adequate balance. Having said that, the only curriculum which could have provided some reasonable level of balance, the leaving certificate, had up until recently ignored Irish history prior to 1870.

I learned things I had never once heard, despite all of the romantic bed time stories and passionate history lessons - how many people learned in school that Wolfe Tone was said to have died as a result of suicide? We had always been taught that he was hanged. Reading accounts of the late nineteenth century, or FSL Lyons biography of Parnell, I became aware of just how free Irish people really were, even in late Victorian Ireland. It just didnt fit with what I had learned, and much of it still doesnt.

I hope that children today are receiving a more balanced education, instead of Irish = good, English = bad sort of tripe that has been served up in the past. I know in my case the primary school teacher who taught us that, and whose views have informed many of my classmates from that time, is still teaching in the same school and I wonder if his teaching has become any way more considered at all.

Irish history for kids

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