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[Article] Dublin Outer Bypass could be tolled

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    #32
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,049 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    spacetweek wrote:
    Why would they do that, when the 2 extra lanes weren't needed until nearly 10 years later? The more road space you provide, the faster it fills. Correct practice is to provide what's needed for the short term, not the long term. Later, as the road fills, you widen.
    Widening a road is one thing, demolishing and rebuilding every bridge along a motorway because you couldn't be bothered to cheaply build in a bit of future-proofing quite another. Not just very expensive to upgrade but very disruptive.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #33
    Andrew Duffy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Andrew Duffy


    All the bridges on the M50 are being retained. Some new ones are being built to carry traffic movements in the improved interchanges.


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    #34
    Xyndrix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭Xyndrix


    lostexpectation wrote:
    I can't find a proper map for this on the NRA site or anywhere, I've drawn where i think it will go, http://dublinstreams.blogspot.com/2007/08/outer-orbital-motorway-where-it.html

    I'm not sure about this. Much as I'm inclined to think the worst of the Blundelstown interchange and its future purpose, linking in with this outer orbital route may not actually be part of the plan. Dempsey was interviewed on local radio shortly after getting Transport and he mentioned this project. He said it would pass north of Trim, south of Ballivor and I'm pretty sure he also said north of Navan as well. In any case, it would be absolutely daft to route another motorway through this area, if only because of all the delays and trouble it would cause (Clearly, these are the only issues that might concern the government as heritage and the destruction of national monuments don't concern them in the slightest). Of course, you never know for sure until the route options are published so there may yet be some more craziness ahead.


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    #35
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,915 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    They'll probably want it inside the M1 and M4 tolls, can't have people getting away with not paying them by taking the outer orbital route ;)

    ⛥ ̸̱̼̞͛̀̓̈́͘#C̶̼̭͕̎̿͝R̶̦̮̜̃̓͌O̶̬͙̓͝W̸̜̥͈̐̾͐Ṋ̵̲͔̫̽̎̚͠ͅT̸͓͒͐H̵͔͠È̶̖̳̘͍͓̂W̴̢̋̈͒͛̋I̶͕͑͠T̵̻͈̜͂̇Č̵̤̟̑̾̂̽H̸̰̺̏̓ ̴̜̗̝̱̹͛́̊̒͝⛥



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    #36
    Navan Junction
    Closed Accounts Posts: 721 ✭✭✭Navan Junction


    Whats the bets they say it can't go north of Navan because it can't be built over Tara Mines?


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    #37
    LostinBlanch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,908 ✭✭✭LostinBlanch


    lostexpectation wrote:
    they said they didn't bring the m3 to the west of tara because of peoples homes...

    A Fig leaf IMO. They're just using that as an excuse, if it wasn't that it'd be something else. I'm not wishing to sound flippant about this but the fact remains that some peoples homes would have to be compulsorily purchased no matter what route was chosen, though I think it was about 5 or 10 less in this case.

    Like I said before I'm concerned that this was just used as an excuse.


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    #38
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Xyndrix wrote:
    I'm not sure about this. Much as I'm inclined to think the worst of the Blundelstown interchange and its future purpose, linking in with this outer orbital route may not actually be part of the plan. Dempsey was interviewed on local radio shortly after getting Transport and he mentioned this project. He said it would pass north of Trim, south of Ballivor and I'm pretty sure he also said north of Navan as well. In any case, it would be absolutely daft to route another motorway through this area, if only because of all the delays and trouble it would cause (Clearly, these are the only issues that might concern the government as heritage and the destruction of national monuments don't concern them in the slightest). Of course, you never know for sure until the route options are published so there may yet be some more craziness ahead.

    ok well if thats the case my drawing is wrong,but there say the total opposite on the rte news bit in the OP, i mean totally guessing but that sounds too close to the N52, unless it was replacement for that...

    http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/motors/2007/0801/1185230272740.html


    oh but look this is what your talking about, is this a story on the same study earlier in the year?

    http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14668

    http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0224/breaking18.htm
    It is understood the new 100km (62 mile) road would begin at Drogheda, cross the N3 between Navan and Kells and heading southwards past Trim before continuing to Kilcock where there would be an interchange with the M4.


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    #39
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    spacetweek wrote:
    Why would they do that, when the 2 extra lanes weren't needed until nearly 10 years later? The more road space you provide, the faster it fills. Correct practice is to provide what's needed for the short term, not the long term. Later, as the road fills, you widen.
    They built the last section of the m50 knowing that what they already had was not sufficient. In fact, given how long it took them to build it I reckon they would have know pretty early on that it was not wide enough, but continued to build the remain sections as per the orininal 1960', (I believe) plan.

    Fcuking tards.

    MrP


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    #40
    D'Peoples Voice
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭D'Peoples Voice


    As I said before when this SAME topic came up, not sure if it was
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=223187
    or
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054926902

    I'd prefer the outer bypass to start by,
      Upgrade existing N51 between Drogheda & Navan(via Slane)
      Redesignate and upgrade the R161 between Navan and Kinegad(via Trim) to the N51 instead of the current N51 from Navan to Devlin
      redesignate and upgrade the R401 to the N51 from Kinegad to Kildare(via Edenderry and Rathangan),
      redesignate and upgrade the R415 to the N51 from Kildare to Crookstwon on the N9
      redesignate and upgrade R747 the N51 from Crookstown on the N9 to Arklow(via Baltinglass)

    The most expensive part of any road is USUALLY land acquisition, so if these roads needs to be improved ANYWAY, why not upgrade the existing roads, after we have to maintain these roads in the future, so the more we build the most costly it will be. Should be far easier to get planning permission for an area where there is an existing road! As regards CPO people's houses , yeah it's tough but while it may cost a lot up front, in the long term it will pay ifself off.


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    #41
    Xyndrix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭Xyndrix


    lostexpectation wrote:
    ok well if thats the case my drawing is wrong,but there say the total opposite on the rte news bit in the OP, i mean totally guessing but that sounds too close to the N52, unless it was replacement for that...

    http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/motors/2007/0801/1185230272740.html


    oh but look this is what your talking about, is this a story on the same study earlier in the year?

    http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14668

    http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0224/breaking18.htm
    It is understood the new 100km (62 mile) road would begin at Drogheda, cross the N3 between Navan and Kells and heading southwards past Trim before continuing to Kilcock where there would be an interchange with the M4.


    Sounds like the same thing alright. Just found this article which appeared in the Meath Chronicle at the end of June. Here Dempsey says "north of Navan... north of Trim...south of Ballivor" as well. Looks like RTE have got it wrong so, ...although if this was Cullen talking I mightn't be so sure.... hold on, this is Dempsey... he's not quite as bad as Cullen at getting his facts wrong on things like this, is he??

    I guess we'll have to wait till the NRA have some maps online before we can be really sure.


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    #42
    Navan Junction
    Closed Accounts Posts: 721 ✭✭✭Navan Junction


    lostexpectation wrote:
    that sounds too close to the N52, unless it was replacement for that...
    That's what it's being called by the politicians up here - the M52
    Xyndrix wrote:
    this is Dempsey... he's not quite as bad as Cullen at getting his facts wrong on things like this, is he??
    He won't get his facts wrong by accident on a Meath roads project


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    #43
    Xyndrix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭Xyndrix


    Navan Junction wrote:
    He won't get his facts wrong by accident on a Meath roads project

    Yeah, you're right. That would be quite extraordinary if he did, now that I think about it.


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    #44
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Navan Junction wrote:
    Whats the bets they say it can't go north of Navan because it can't be built over Tara Mines?
    roflmao
    :D


    DPeoples, I'd agree wit most of the route, but I'd go Trim-Enfield-New route to Kildare

    I'm always amazed with national secondary routes about the place that go nowhere really, while the route from the east of Wicklow and Gorey is a mule track. Twas even worse when the fert in Arklow was open, trucks going through Tinaheley and Aughrim to get to anywhere west.


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    #45
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Agree with Carawaystick - the route corridor south of the Wicklow mountains is not well served, there should be a national secondary road.

    Still, having travelled it a fair number of times over the last decade or so, it's certainly immensely better nowadays with most parts having a servicable or even good surface (even if no hard shoulders) and far better signposting on the R roads, even if not yet fully comprehensive.

    It's a very big gap in the national road network between M50 to the north and N80 to the south; between the N81 and N11.


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    #46
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    The N52 is still pretty appalling. They've improved a very short stretch just west of Delvin but most of the route is very poor. We do need a new motorway but it needs to be contained in case it just causes more urban sprawl.


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    #47
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Right! I'm going to set the record straight on the M50 green space issue!

    Now, the old Irish Standard for a 4 lane motorway cross section is:

    2 x 3.00m Verges
    2 x 3.00m Hard Shoulders
    4 x 3.75m Lanes
    2 x 1.00m Median Strips
    1 x 7.00m Grass Median

    Up to recently, all Irish motorways followed the above specification. Now, a tighter configuration using the concrete barrier has been used more frequently since the NRA decided to follow international trends around 2001 - the first such road is the N8 Cashel Bypass opened in 2004. This current standard is as follows:

    2 x 2.00m Verges
    2 x 2.50m Hard Shoulders
    4 x 3.50m Lanes
    2 x 1.00m Median Strips
    1 x 0.60m Concrete Barrier

    Now, back to the main point - the M50 followed the former standard, but because the engineers foresaw the need for extra capacity, a 15m median was provided between the junctions to allow for construction of 2 extra lanes (while maintaining a 7.5 median), which in turn would allow the initial outer lanes to become auxiliary lanes. However, the recent economic boom arrived and by 2000, engineers realised that the original upgrade plans would be insufficient and that a far more robust scheme was required. Now, the M50 upgrade will include the following:

    2 x 2.00m Verges
    2 x 2.50m Hard Shoulders
    6 x 3.50m Running Lanes
    2 x 3.50m Auxiliary Lanes
    2 x 1.00m (min) Median Strips
    1 (or 2) x 0.60m Concrete Barriers
    5 x Major Interchange Reconfigurations (multiple new structures)
    2 x Major Interchange Extensions (1 extra road bridge)
    3 x Minor Interchange Extensions (left turn slips only)

    An interesting point, the old Irish standard is now described in the NRA-DMRB as a wide motorway cross section. The M4 Kilcock to Kinnegead Motorway uses such, even though it commenced construction in 2003. The N4 link-up to the McNeads Bridge scheme uses the standard (concrete barrier) cross section though it's part of the above scheme. I guess a safe bet is that the wide motorway standard is used if engineers foresee a need for extra lanes - provision for extra lanes on the M4 were mentioned at the time of construction.

    Regards


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    #48
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,281 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Irish and Proud wrote:
    Now, the old Irish Standard for a 4 lane motorway cross section is:

    2 x 3.00m Verges
    2 x 3.00m Hard Shoulders
    4 x 3.75m Lanes
    2 x 1.00m Median Strips
    1 x 7.00m Grass Median
    For clarity that is a dual 2-lane motorway.


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    #49
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    Ahhhh....Sense...
    breakingnews.ie wrote:
    The Green Party has said it has 'serious reservations' over Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey's plan to prioritise the building of the Dublin outer orbital motorway.

    The junior coalition partner claimed that building more motorways will lead to greater urban sprawl and will not solve the country's transport problems.

    The Greens said priority should be given to new commuter rail projects and they said they will make this clear to their Fianna Fáil counterparts.


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    #50
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    So i was totally wrong about the route of the road,I blame RTE for saying "south of Drogheda towards Navan, south of Trim" does that sound like its going north or south of Navan?


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    #51
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    I'll always remember when the M50 was first opened, I saw a satircal drawing (can anyone remember which paper this was?) detailing plans for a Dundalk-Mulingar-Kildare orbital motorway, it was so ridiculous at the time I actually laughed out loud. :o


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    #52
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Victor wrote:
    For clarity that is a dual 2-lane motorway.

    The standard cross section for a dual 2-lane motorway is exactly that of the HQDC since 2001. Yes, a number of schemes with the traditional cross section have been built, or even started since (N1 Border to Dundalk is the latest of such), but you have to bear in mind that new road types take a while to filter down through the planning system - after all, how many 2+1 roads have we to date, despite all the time we've been hearing about them.

    Just to clarify, the cross section that you quoted is now classed as a wide motorway, and is probably used where engineers foresee a need for future widening to D3M.


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    #53
    Xyndrix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭Xyndrix


    Bit more info on the route from The Meath Weekender

    The 80km route submitted to the Department of Transport by the National Roads Authority (NRA) begins south of Drogheda and continues through Slane, Navan and Trim, before ending near Naas in Co. Kildare.

    It is believed that the preferred route will travel north of Slane and Navan, crossing the River Boyne near the Silver Tankard, then turning near Dunderry to emerge south of Trim.

    Talks about south of Drogheda and south of Trim again, so that does seem a little confusing. It's hardly going to be much south of Drogheda, and if what Dempsey said is true about Ballivor then it might be more correct to say passing west of Trim before heading south.


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    #54
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Be damned to this outer bypass until ALL necessary routes have been upgraded. Ie: Interurbans, N20, N18 etc, N11, N25 and all those.


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    #55
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,915 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    If it turns near Dunderry, then it probably goes east of Trim before ending up south of Trim. With the current roads administration, it's nearly a guarantee that they're deliberately pulling the motorway in at this point so it can cross the M4 just within the toll bridge. That way people travelling from Galway/Sligo to the North will still have to pay the M4 toll. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if they're going with the counterintuitive option of starting the motorway south of Drogedha so that people don't end up joining the M1 to the north of the M1 toll.
    Xyndrix wrote:
    It's hardly going to be much south of Drogheda, and if what Dempsey said is true about Ballivor then it might be more correct to say passing west of Trim before heading south.

    Perhaps Dempsey has more sense than the NRA and isn't going with the "screw you 3 ways" option.

    ⛥ ̸̱̼̞͛̀̓̈́͘#C̶̼̭͕̎̿͝R̶̦̮̜̃̓͌O̶̬͙̓͝W̸̜̥͈̐̾͐Ṋ̵̲͔̫̽̎̚͠ͅT̸͓͒͐H̵͔͠È̶̖̳̘͍͓̂W̴̢̋̈͒͛̋I̶͕͑͠T̵̻͈̜͂̇Č̵̤̟̑̾̂̽H̸̰̺̏̓ ̴̜̗̝̱̹͛́̊̒͝⛥



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    #56
    Xyndrix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭Xyndrix


    Yeah, that line about turning near Dunderry seems somewhat at odds with what Dempsey said. It's proving a bit difficult to visualise the route from the information available.
    Stark wrote:
    With the current roads administration, it's nearly a guarantee that they're deliberately pulling the motorway in at this point so it can cross the M4 just within the toll bridge. That way people travelling from Galway/Sligo to the North will still have to pay the M4 toll. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if they're going with the counterintuitive option of starting the motorway south of Drogedha so that people don't end up joining the M1 to the north of the M1 toll.

    That really would be outrageous and it would make a total joke of the route, to bring it south of the toll at Drogheda after passing north of Navan. Of course, when it comes to the NRA nothing is too far-fetched or ridiculous, so you never know.
    Stark wrote:
    Perhaps Dempsey has more sense than the NRA and isn't going with the "screw you 3 ways" option.

    I find it really difficult to imagine Dempsey as the voice of reason in these matters. I'm trying hard to picture it, but it's just not happening.


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    #57
    Navan Junction
    Closed Accounts Posts: 721 ✭✭✭Navan Junction


    Well, if it goes east of Trim the obvious question is going to be why the M3 was not given a more westerly route - you will have 2 parallel motorways heading sth from Navan as things stand.

    BTW, I can't see the M51/52 running sth of the M1 toll plaza - the new North-east super hospital may well be located in Navan. But if it is to be the regional superhospital for Dundalk and Drogheda as well, I can't see it being put behind tolls from those two towns (which it will be if the M51/52 starts sth of the M1 toll plaza).

    However what will be interesting is how they work out the route in relation to the Boyne valley and Newgrange/Slane Castle etc - I think it may be fair to assume that if the road runs north of the Boyne at Drogheda, it will stay north of the Boyne until crossing the Blackwater north of Navan.

    On the other hand if it starts out sth of the Boyne at Drogheda, it will probably stay there - and run through Blundlestown...

    Still think Tara Mines will be the nominal reason a southerly route is chosen, even though it is likely to be controversial


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    #58
    D'Peoples Voice
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭D'Peoples Voice


    Chris_533976 wrote:
    Be damned to this outer bypass until ALL necessary routes have been upgraded. Ie: Interurbans, N20, N18 etc, N11, N25 and all those.
    That's why I'm saying don't start building new roads when we can't maintain the NATIONAL SECONDARY ROADS we have on a regular basis!

    We need to ask what is the expected traffic volumes on such a route, is a motorway needed here - or would a 2+1 road not suffice?
    My experience on say the M7 is that once I get past Monasteravin, the volume of traffic falls drastically - and that's on a road between the two biggest cities in the country. Why type of traffic will there be between the M1from Belfast to the N11 to Wexford Town (N25 Rosslare)?


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    #59
    Xyndrix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭Xyndrix


    I see the Weekender made a mistake as well referring to the Blackwater as the Boyne. Makes you wonder if anyone really knows where this thing is going. "north of Trim", "south of Trim", "south of Drogheda but north of Navan". What's going on? I assume we'll find out soon enough though as this appears to be a project that's getting special attention even though it's not in the NDP or Transport 21.


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    #60
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    D'Peoples Voice wrote:
    That's why I'm saying don't start building new roads when we can't maintain the NATIONAL SECONDARY ROADS we have on a regular basis!

    We need to ask what is the expected traffic volumes on such a route, is a motorway needed here - or would a 2+1 road not suffice?

    No more 2+1s are being built (due to Irish people thinking the sign swapping the extra lane from one side to another meant speed up and overtake like there was no tommorow!) - roads that were due to be upgraded to 2+1 are now going to be dual carrigeway instead. In any case, 2+1 was only ever meant to be used to retrofit existing roads, not new builds.

    The Outer Orbital, if built, will intersect mainly with motorways (assuming we are sensible and don't put junctions with every little R-road - if that happens, it'll end up with a fair bit of local traffic on it), the only AP road it will intersect with will be the N2. It makes sense to slap motorway regulations on the road in that case.


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    #61
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    D'Peoples Voice wrote:
    That's why I'm saying don't start building new roads when we can't maintain the NATIONAL SECONDARY ROADS we have on a regular basis!

    We need to ask what is the expected traffic volumes on such a route, is a motorway needed here - or would a 2+1 road not suffice?
    My experience on say the M7 is that once I get past Monasteravin, the volume of traffic falls drastically - and that's on a road between the two biggest cities in the country. Why type of traffic will there be between the M1from Belfast to the N11 to Wexford Town (N25 Rosslare)?

    While, you are right, many of the interurban routes don't currently have the traffic volumes required for motorways, I have to completely disagree with you.

    IMO your view is the typical old Irish short sighted view. Instead of building for the needs of tomorrow, just build inadequate infrastructure for todays needs, jut so you can save a few bob today (but cost way more in the long term).

    This is exactly the type of short sightedness that has lead to the disaster that the M50 is and now it's very costly upgrade.

    The reality is it only costs about 10% more to build motorway now up front versus Dual Carriage and probably only a small bit more again then 2+1. Whereas if we built 2+1 now and then in 10 years we find we need motorway, then it would probably cost a 100% more, just like the M50.

    I'm really glad that at least some people have learned from the mistakes of the M50 and that it seems that such short sighted thinking is being left behind and we are now building for the future rather then the present.


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