[Article] Dublin Outer Bypass could be tolled

Irish and Proud · 28-08-2007 9:39pm

Victor wrote:

For clarity that is a dual 2-lane motorway.

The standard cross section for a dual 2-lane motorway is exactly that of the HQDC since 2001. Yes, a number of schemes with the traditional cross section have been built, or even started since (N1 Border to Dundalk is the latest of such), but you have to bear in mind that new road types take a while to filter down through the planning system - after all, how many 2+1 roads have we to date, despite all the time we've been hearing about them.

Just to clarify, the cross section that you quoted is now classed as a wide motorway, and is probably used where engineers foresee a need for future widening to D3M.

Xyndrix · 29-08-2007 1:26pm

Bit more info on the route from The Meath Weekender

The 80km route submitted to the Department of Transport by the National Roads Authority (NRA) begins south of Drogheda and continues through Slane, Navan and Trim, before ending near Naas in Co. Kildare.

It is believed that the preferred route will travel north of Slane and Navan, crossing the River Boyne near the Silver Tankard, then turning near Dunderry to emerge south of Trim.

Talks about south of Drogheda and south of Trim again, so that does seem a little confusing. It's hardly going to be much south of Drogheda, and if what Dempsey said is true about Ballivor then it might be more correct to say passing west of Trim before heading south.

Chris_533976 · 29-08-2007 1:39pm

Be damned to this outer bypass until ALL necessary routes have been upgraded. Ie: Interurbans, N20, N18 etc, N11, N25 and all those.

Stark · 29-08-2007 1:40pm

If it turns near Dunderry, then it probably goes east of Trim before ending up south of Trim. With the current roads administration, it's nearly a guarantee that they're deliberately pulling the motorway in at this point so it can cross the M4 just within the toll bridge. That way people travelling from Galway/Sligo to the North will still have to pay the M4 toll. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if they're going with the counterintuitive option of starting the motorway south of Drogedha so that people don't end up joining the M1 to the north of the M1 toll.

Xyndrix wrote:

It's hardly going to be much south of Drogheda, and if what Dempsey said is true about Ballivor then it might be more correct to say passing west of Trim before heading south.

Perhaps Dempsey has more sense than the NRA and isn't going with the "screw you 3 ways" option.

Xyndrix · 29-08-2007 3:29pm

Yeah, that line about turning near Dunderry seems somewhat at odds with what Dempsey said. It's proving a bit difficult to visualise the route from the information available.

Stark wrote:

With the current roads administration, it's nearly a guarantee that they're deliberately pulling the motorway in at this point so it can cross the M4 just within the toll bridge. That way people travelling from Galway/Sligo to the North will still have to pay the M4 toll. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if they're going with the counterintuitive option of starting the motorway south of Drogedha so that people don't end up joining the M1 to the north of the M1 toll.

That really would be outrageous and it would make a total joke of the route, to bring it south of the toll at Drogheda after passing north of Navan. Of course, when it comes to the NRA nothing is too far-fetched or ridiculous, so you never know.

Stark wrote:

Perhaps Dempsey has more sense than the NRA and isn't going with the "screw you 3 ways" option.

I find it really difficult to imagine Dempsey as the voice of reason in these matters. I'm trying hard to picture it, but it's just not happening.

Navan Junction · 29-08-2007 3:38pm

Well, if it goes east of Trim the obvious question is going to be why the M3 was not given a more westerly route - you will have 2 parallel motorways heading sth from Navan as things stand.

BTW, I can't see the M51/52 running sth of the M1 toll plaza - the new North-east super hospital may well be located in Navan. But if it is to be the regional superhospital for Dundalk and Drogheda as well, I can't see it being put behind tolls from those two towns (which it will be if the M51/52 starts sth of the M1 toll plaza).

However what will be interesting is how they work out the route in relation to the Boyne valley and Newgrange/Slane Castle etc - I think it may be fair to assume that if the road runs north of the Boyne at Drogheda, it will stay north of the Boyne until crossing the Blackwater north of Navan.

On the other hand if it starts out sth of the Boyne at Drogheda, it will probably stay there - and run through Blundlestown...

Still think Tara Mines will be the nominal reason a southerly route is chosen, even though it is likely to be controversial

D'Peoples Voice · 29-08-2007 5:21pm

Chris_533976 wrote:

Be damned to this outer bypass until ALL necessary routes have been upgraded. Ie: Interurbans, N20, N18 etc, N11, N25 and all those.

That's why I'm saying don't start building new roads when we can't maintain the NATIONAL SECONDARY ROADS we have on a regular basis!

We need to ask what is the expected traffic volumes on such a route, is a motorway needed here - or would a 2+1 road not suffice?
My experience on say the M7 is that once I get past Monasteravin, the volume of traffic falls drastically - and that's on a road between the two biggest cities in the country. Why type of traffic will there be between the M1from Belfast to the N11 to Wexford Town (N25 Rosslare)?

Xyndrix · 29-08-2007 5:58pm

I see the Weekender made a mistake as well referring to the Blackwater as the Boyne. Makes you wonder if anyone really knows where this thing is going. "north of Trim", "south of Trim", "south of Drogheda but north of Navan". What's going on? I assume we'll find out soon enough though as this appears to be a project that's getting special attention even though it's not in the NDP or Transport 21.

icdg · 29-08-2007 8:11pm

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

That's why I'm saying don't start building new roads when we can't maintain the NATIONAL SECONDARY ROADS we have on a regular basis!

We need to ask what is the expected traffic volumes on such a route, is a motorway needed here - or would a 2+1 road not suffice?

No more 2+1s are being built (due to Irish people thinking the sign swapping the extra lane from one side to another meant speed up and overtake like there was no tommorow!) - roads that were due to be upgraded to 2+1 are now going to be dual carrigeway instead. In any case, 2+1 was only ever meant to be used to retrofit existing roads, not new builds.

The Outer Orbital, if built, will intersect mainly with motorways (assuming we are sensible and don't put junctions with every little R-road - if that happens, it'll end up with a fair bit of local traffic on it), the only AP road it will intersect with will be the N2. It makes sense to slap motorway regulations on the road in that case.

bk · 30-08-2007 12:23am

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

That's why I'm saying don't start building new roads when we can't maintain the NATIONAL SECONDARY ROADS we have on a regular basis!

We need to ask what is the expected traffic volumes on such a route, is a motorway needed here - or would a 2+1 road not suffice?
My experience on say the M7 is that once I get past Monasteravin, the volume of traffic falls drastically - and that's on a road between the two biggest cities in the country. Why type of traffic will there be between the M1from Belfast to the N11 to Wexford Town (N25 Rosslare)?

While, you are right, many of the interurban routes don't currently have the traffic volumes required for motorways, I have to completely disagree with you.

IMO your view is the typical old Irish short sighted view. Instead of building for the needs of tomorrow, just build inadequate infrastructure for todays needs, jut so you can save a few bob today (but cost way more in the long term).

This is exactly the type of short sightedness that has lead to the disaster that the M50 is and now it's very costly upgrade.

The reality is it only costs about 10% more to build motorway now up front versus Dual Carriage and probably only a small bit more again then 2+1. Whereas if we built 2+1 now and then in 10 years we find we need motorway, then it would probably cost a 100% more, just like the M50.

I'm really glad that at least some people have learned from the mistakes of the M50 and that it seems that such short sighted thinking is being left behind and we are now building for the future rather then the present.

D'Peoples Voice · 30-08-2007 1:38pm

bk wrote:

IMO your view is the typical old Irish short sighted view. Instead of building for the needs of tomorrow, just build inadequate infrastructure for todays needs, jut so you can save a few bob today (but cost way more in the long term).

This is exactly the type of short sightedness that has lead to the disaster that the M50 is and now it's very costly upgrade.

Lets be honest here, the M50 is SURROUNDED by huge population centres like Tallaght(N81), Clondalkin(N7), Lucan(N4) and Blanchardstown(N3). The M50 is used as a commuter route.
It's a bit different for the outer ring road, it's not to be used as a commuter route, nor is it surrounded by population centres as big as those named above(either now and very unlikely into the future).
I agree with leaving room for such an extension to take place, that's something many would argue they didn't do with the M50.

bk · 30-08-2007 2:14pm

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Lets be honest here, the M50 is SURROUNDED by huge population centres like Tallaght(N81), Clondalkin(N7), Lucan(N4) and Blanchardstown(N3). The M50 is used as a commuter route.
It's a bit different for the outer ring road, it's not to be used as a commuter route, nor is it surrounded by population centres as big as those named above(either now and very unlikely into the future).

Actually, when the M50 started out, it wasn't supposed to be a commuter route, it was supposed to be a Dublin by-pass, just like the new outer orbital, but we have all seen how that worked out. Dublin expanded massively out to the M50, due to bad planning.

I certainly hope that the same isn't left happen to the outer orbital road. Hopefully through good road design and strong planning permission, it won't be left develop in a M50 mark 2.

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

I agree with leaving room for such an extension to take place, that's something many would argue they didn't do with the M50.

Actually, on the contrary, the M50 was designed and planned from the start to be easily upgraded, with very wide medians and verges, so that extra lanes could be added. Yet we have seen that even when you leave space for upgrading, it still costs 100's of millions to upgrade, never mind the disturbance to the existing traffic while you upgrade.

So why not spend just 10% now to over engineer and build a motorway now, rather then leave the space and have is cost 100% more in 10 years time?

[Article] Dublin Outer Bypass could be tolled

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