Irish Rail derails plans for Wi-Fi on trains

paulm17781 · 19-05-2008 10:02am #1

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/news.nv?storyid=single11040

Just another shining example of what makes Irish Rail such a rubbish entity. My personal favourite is

Useless Company wrote:

“Iarnród Éireann (IÉ) feels that it wouldn’t be in the public’s or the company’s best interest to install the current wireless technologies on its fleet for customer use due to the limited lifespan of said technologies. Anything we install now is likely to be completely redundant within five years.

“We feel customers would be better supported by obtaining their own wireless solutions, such as those provided by the mobile providers (3G and GPRS/EDGE).

This is just annoying. Once again the ball is dropped and Irish rail are shown for the useless visionless entity they are.

markpb · 19-05-2008 10:10am

Useless Company wrote:

“We feel customers would be better supported by obtaining their own wireless solutions, such as those provided by the mobile providers (3G and GPRS/EDGE).

Replace "wireless solutions" with "cars" and it's still true.

markf909 · 19-05-2008 10:18am

markpb wrote: »

Replace "wireless solutions" with "cars" and it's still true.

Indeed, Irish Rail do not care about innovation or their Business customers because all of the Irish Rail staff are guaranteed their jobs irrespective of the service they provide.

Witness this mornings cancellation of the 6:30am Cork Dublin with no notice.
How are business people expected to put up with such nonsense?

paulm17781 · 19-05-2008 10:37am

If Dempsey had any balls, or use as a politician, he'd be reorganizing CIE as we speak. Not because of this but successive governments have seen what a bad company they are let it continue. I almost wish Harney was moved to Transport. At least she make some changes.

MOH · 19-05-2008 10:47am

While I think Irish Rail stance on the matter is a complete joke, the article is a bit strange. I came across that statement in the Irish Rail FAQ over a month ago (and thought it ridiculous then). Why start writing about it now? And the blog poll quoted has a grand total of 15 replies. What exactly is a "wi-fi practitioner" anyway?

lostinsuperfunk · 19-05-2008 12:19pm

Crazy decision, I'm surprised it didn't get much attention at the time.

Internet access is another opportunity for IE to gain an edge over the airlines, private cars and bus operators and they choose to ignore it.

I don't understand the reasoning. Of course the final part of the wi-fi standard may become obsolete, 802.11b/g or whatever, but this part is cheap (maybe one access point per carriage?), and surely investing in the underlying infrastructure is worthwhile. People will always want high-speed internet access, and will always pay for a good service. You could even install wired 1 Gbps access at each seat and charge handsomely for it.

Zoney · 19-05-2008 1:20pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

If Dempsey had any balls, or use as a politician, he'd be reorganizing CIE as we speak. Not because of this but successive governments have seen what a bad company they are let it continue. I almost wish Harney was moved to Transport. At least she make some changes.

If it was Harney, we'd get a new HSE-like authority above CIE sucking cash and acting as another blame shield. Something like a National Transport Authority... Oh, wait a minute, that's right, the Government do plan to do this. It won't ensure joined up thinking in transport, just another layer of bureaucracy above the various fiefdoms and an attempt to outsource the Dept. of Transport.

Unfortunately Fianna Fail convinced almost half the voters to vote for them last time round, and the opposition managed not to win an election outright in pretty much ideal circumstances (which in fairness, doesn't inspire confidence they'd be much better than the alternative, though they'd be unlikely to be worse).

godtabh · 19-05-2008 1:27pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/news.nv?storyid=single11040

Just another shining example of what makes Irish Rail such a rubbish entity. My personal favourite is

This is just annoying. Once again the ball is dropped and Irish rail are shown for the useless visionless entity they are.

Why should they have wifi on trains? Because you said so?

If it doesn't work out financially for them why should they do it? Its a business decision that they made.

If it was a private operator would you be saying the same?

Ham'nd'egger · 19-05-2008 1:33pm

The issue of WIFI on trains was debated here many times over the last year or so and sadly that story doesn't bring anything new or relevant onto this debate, it is just a stock story slipped into that site to boost hits for a blogger.

Any business that would invest in a medium only to possibly rip it up in a 2-3 years time is looking at a potential loss unless it is virtually free and hassle free to provide at the minute. I agree that it would be a nice extra but this would need to pay for itself and trains here may not have the numbers to make it worthwhile and to pay for itself (bear in mind many rail services here are loss making and need subvention to stay open). There is also the issue of 22000's being rolled out at present and phasing out of the Mark 3 carriages; this is naturally the priority of Irish Rail for the next year.

godtabh · 19-05-2008 1:39pm

Hamndegger wrote: »

The issue of WIFI on trains was debated here many times over the last year or so and sadly that story doesn't bring anything new or relevant onto this debate, it is just a stock story slipped into that site to boost hits for a blogger.

Any business that would invest in a medium only to possibly rip it up in a 2-3 years time is looking at a potential loss unless it is virtually free and hassle free to provide at the minute. I agree that it would be a nice extra but this would need to pay for itself and trains here may not have the numbers to make it worthwhile and to pay for itself (bear in mind many rail services here are loss making and need subvention to stay open). There is also the issue of 22000's being rolled out at present and phasing out of the Mark 3 carriages; this is naturally the priority of Irish Rail for the next year.

Exactly.

I don't understand why people bitch and moan about something as trivial as wifi on a train when there are much more important issues at hand.

OP who many times would you use the train and how often would you have used the wifi?

markpb · 19-05-2008 1:41pm

Hamndegger wrote: »

Any business that would invest in a medium only to possibly rip it up in a 2-3 years time is looking at a potential loss unless it is virtually free and hassle free to provide at the minute. I agree that it would be a nice extra but this would need to pay for itself and trains here may not have the numbers to make it worthwhile and to pay for itself (bear in mind many rail services here are loss making and need subvention to stay open).

It should be possible to roll out Wifi on particular routes based on the numbers using the route, the potential growth, the type of people who would use such a service, etc. Dublin - Cork and Dublin - Belfast both jump out as good examples as well as having the huge advantage that they run on pretty much dedicated fleets.

Also, the only reason it would have a life of three years is because IR missed the boat about five years ago when Wifi was getting popular.

paulm17781 · 19-05-2008 1:41pm

kearnsr wrote: »

Why should they have wifi on trains? Because you said so?

If it doesn't work out financially for them why should they do it? Its a business decision that they made.

If it was a private operator would you be saying the same?

You're quite tedious in your determination to argue with everyone.

They promised it some time ago. From the article posted, they clearly did not research this as WiMax isn't close to a decent level yet. 3G can't possibly offer the same service and won't give a decent speed. Most of the country side isn't covered by 3G as it is expensive.

If IE wanted to do things to make the trains better for customers they could. This is another example of "Sure something else will help." IE once again fail to do anything to improve their image. IE do nothing to encourage people to use their trains.

Yes, I'd say the same of any rubbish company. There's no basis it isn't financially viable, it is just an example of Irish rail doing nothing to improve their services.

paulm17781 · 19-05-2008 1:44pm

Hamndegger wrote: »

Any business that would invest in a medium only to possibly rip it up in a 2-3 years time is looking at a potential loss unless it is virtually free and hassle free to provide at the minute. .

Please go on. Can I some some figures to justify this. Can you show my why it is not viable? I'm a network administrator, I've a pretty decent idea of this. Do you?

OP who many times would you use the train and how often would you have used the wifi?

I'm not a business or regular traveler. If Wi-fi were available. I'd use it every time I traveled. I'm on 24hr call so I may need it and 3G just won't cut it for situations like that.

godtabh · 19-05-2008 1:49pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

Yes, I'd say the same of any rubbish company. There's no basis it isn't financially viable, it is just an example of Irish rail doing nothing to improve their services.

So what they should install this and make a loss on it?

You have serious issues with Irish Rail yet pick on one of the smallest issues that does not affect the running/performance of the trains and make it into a big issue.

Wouldnt be the battle I would be fighting

Run_to_da_hills · 19-05-2008 2:04pm

I wouldn't blame Irish Rail for not permitting Wifi on trains, If they could also ban the use of mobiles, video games, dvd players, Ipods and Walkmans it would make rail journeys much more pleasant and more considerate for those that want to sit back and relax. Gone were the days when one would read a book to pass the time on a journey. CIE Keep up the good work !

paulm17781 · 19-05-2008 2:14pm

kearnsr wrote: »

So what they should install this and make a loss on it?

As I said, show me the figures.

kearnsr wrote: »

You have serious issues with Irish Rail yet pick on one of the smallest issues that does not affect the running/performance of the trains and make it into a big issue.

Wouldnt be the battle I would be fighting

That's cause you'd rather argue with the people here.

This is another example of how out of touch IE are with their customers. They will do nothing to make them happy. I've fought all scales of battle with IE. From campaigning for the interconnector to things like this. What is clear in all battles is that they have no concern or care for what their customers want.

Ham'nd'egger · 19-05-2008 2:30pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

Please go on. Can I some some figures to justify this. Can you show my why it is not viable? I'm a network administrator, I've a pretty decent idea of this. Do you?

I'm not a business or regular traveler. If Wi-fi were available. I'd use it every time I traveled. I'm on 24hr call so I may need it and 3G just won't cut it for situations like that.

Ok, how much would it cost to install, how many people are liable to use it and should Irish Rail just put it in on the off chance that one may wish to use it? Certainly, I am not a network administrator but the last time I checked, Irish Rail are in the business of running trains, not supplying internet connections. Unless WIFI costs half a button to run and is destined, the return and justification isn't there. Almost all services are showing huge rises in numbers as it is so they must be doing something right without it

Or should they just put the money into something more practical; something like cutting journey times and replacing track, renovating a station, replacing a bridge somewhere, putting in new ticket machines, cheaper prices, adverts etc etc. Given the choice between getting there 10 minutes quicker and having the internet on, I'd know what people would go for

Oh by the way, if you are on 24 hour call then WIFI on a train isn't any use at 4AM

godtabh · 19-05-2008 2:35pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

As I said, show me the figures.

paulm17781 wrote: »

Yes, I'd say the same of any rubbish company. There's no basis it isn't financially viable, it is just an example of Irish rail doing nothing to improve their services.

You siad it isn't financially viable

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

I wouldn't blame Irish Rail for not permitting Wifi on trains, If they could also ban the use of mobiles, video games, dvd players, Ipods and Walkmans it would make rail journeys much more pleasant and more considerate for those that want to sit back and relax. Gone were the days when one would read a book to pass the time on a journey. CIE Keep up the good work !

paulm17781 wrote:

What is clear in all battles is that they have no concern or care for what their customers want.

What customers want is a reliable and efficient service. I could nearly guarantee that given the choice between a frequent on time service over the installation of wifi I know what the customers would want.

I couldn't care less if there was wifi on a train or not. I'd rather have a train that is frequent and that runs on time

I use my 3g connection to do my work on go. It does me.

Limerick Dude · 19-05-2008 2:47pm

In fairness alot people these days carry laptops when travelling with irish rail, be it business folk or students. Im a student myself and i travel from Limerick to Dublin most weekends, I always have my laptop with me and having a wifi service on the train would be very handy indeed, and i must admit im very dissapointed that they are not going to be going ahead with this.

paulm17781 · 19-05-2008 2:57pm

Hamndegger wrote: »

Ok, how much would it cost to install, how many people are liable to use it and should Irish Rail just put it in on the off chance that one may wish to use it?

I do this for a living. I'm not going to do it for Irish rail. The answer is not a whole lot, in the thousands anyway.

Hamndegger wrote: »

Or should they just put the money into something more practical; something like cutting journey times and replacing track, renovating a station, replacing a bridge somewhere, putting in new ticket machines, cheaper prices, adverts etc etc. Given the choice between getting there 10 minutes quicker and having the internet on, I'd know what people would go for

Won't make a difference, too small an amount.

Hamndegger wrote: »

Oh by the way, if you are on 24 hour call then WIFI on a train isn't any use at 4AM

Do you know the difference between night time and 24 hours? If I'm not in work and I decide to go to Cork, I can be called on the train. See where this is going?

kearnsr wrote:

You siad it isn't financially viable

No, no I didn't. "There's no basis it isn't financially viable" the bolding was done by you.

kearnsr wrote:

What customers want is a reliable and efficient service. I could nearly guarantee that given the choice between a frequent on time service over the installation of wifi I know what the customers would want.

Well, we don't have Wi-fi yet and the trains are woeful. I don't see keeping wi-fi off the trains helping this. They could do both though that maybe too much for them. Customers would be impressed then.

kearnsr wrote:

I couldn't care less if there was wifi on a train or not. I'd rather have a train that is frequent and that runs on time

I use my 3g connection to do my work on go. It does me.

Well in that case. I'm clearly wrong to point out how Wi-fi is better and I know a 3G connection won't do me or many others to get into their office VPNs. If you're happy, that's what matters. :rolleyes:

godtabh · 19-05-2008 3:23pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

Won't make a difference, too small an amount.

Its still a small amount that could be better used else where

paulm17781 wrote: »

No, no I didn't. "There's no basis it isn't financially viable" the bolding was done by you.

Still reads as

paulm17781 wrote:

There's no basis it isn't financially viable

Still reads as isn't financially viable as orginally posted by you regardless of the bold type

Well, we don't have Wi-fi yet and the trains are woeful. I don't see keeping wi-fi off the trains helping this. They could do both though that maybe too much for them. Customers would be impressed then.

And having wifi will make the trains better? A rail company should concentrate on running a train company first and an internet train second

paulm17781 wrote:

Well in that case. I'm clearly wrong to point out how Wi-fi is better and I know a 3G connection won't do me or many others to get into their office VPNs. If you're happy, that's what matters.

apperatnley its what makes you happy that matters.

I get the train every day. Its the suburban but still a train none the less. I'm not the only one using their 3g connection for work.

Most users need to check their emails. Blackberry and 3g are more than enough to do this.

token56 · 19-05-2008 3:41pm

If they could just get me to work and home on time on a regular basis I would organise a parade for them

trellheim · 19-05-2008 3:49pm

The last few weeks I've been using [ or trying to use ] Voda 3G Dublin-Limerick and vice versa on the choo choo.

Pure crap. Signal bar usually 1 or less and only in range for 50% of journey, very slow when it was.

As for Wi-Fi, it wouldn't cost much to hook up each carriage with a wireless box, then put the server somewhere in the van.

Where are you going to get the wire to the Internet ? a long line trailing behind the train to Dublin ?

Ham'nd'egger · 19-05-2008 3:50pm

Paul, once again how much give or takewould it actually cost to install WIFI on inter city trains, including a reasonable amount to pay for the running cost (maintaining and renewing when needed) and relevant networking connections for same per year?

Bear in mind that there is 184 22000 Class railcars, 59 Mark 4s on Dublin-Cork, 28 De Dietrich on Dublin-Belfast, 83 Mark 3's (Soon to be phased out) and 25 Mark 3A push pulls; a fleet of 379 passenger coaches and railcars to fit out.

paulm17781 · 19-05-2008 4:02pm

Hamndegger wrote: »

Paul, once again how much give or takewould it actually cost to install WIFI on inter city trains, including a reasonable amount to pay for the running cost (maintaining and renewing when needed) and relevant networking connections for same per year?

I'd have to see how they were sourcing the connections for the trains. The actual cost to network the train would be at most 10k, that is an over estimate. I haven't seen how they were going to get the internet to the train. There would be minimum maintenance needed on this provided it was done right.

Hamndegger wrote: »

Bear in mind that there is 184 22000 Class railcars, 59 Mark 4s on Dublin-Cork, 28 De Dietrich on Dublin-Belfast, 83 Mark 3's (Soon to be phased out) and 25 Mark 3A push pulls; a fleet of 379 passenger coaches and railcars to fit out.

Once they source the "internet" (I'm being no technical) on the routes, it is only how to do the trains, that really is quite low cost. I would need to see what they were planning but I wouldn't think it would be that much. It would improve the customer aspect in one regard and look better.

me wrote:

There's no basis it isn't financially viable

Kearnsr wrote:

Still reads as isn't financially viable as orginally posted by you regardless of the bold type

It only reads as that if you ignore half the sentence.

I'm going to stop arguing with you (Kearnsr) now. It is pointless. I know what is a better technology and how not to do networks half-a***d. I know how a company should provide a decent service. If you're happy with mediocrity, well be it. .

alpha2zulu · 19-05-2008 4:04pm

Bear in mind that given the record of irish rail this could have proved the death knell for WI-FI.
Back in the mid 90's (if memory serves me ):D IE introduced callcard phones in the restaurant cars of all MK3's, only to be removed a few years later through lack of use and the mobile phone revolution.

godtabh · 19-05-2008 4:19pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

It only reads as that if you ignore half the sentence.

paulm17781 wrote: »

Yes, I'd say the same of any rubbish company. There's no basis it isn't financially viable, it is just an example of Irish rail doing nothing to improve their services.

There is the full sentence. Still reads that it is not financially viable.

paulm17781 wrote: »

I'm going to stop arguing with you (Kearnsr) now. It is pointless.

Why is it pointless? Because I dont accept your argument?

paulm17781 wrote: »

I know what is a better technology and how not to do networks half-a***d. I know how a company should provide a decent service.

If you're happy with mediocrity, well be it. .

Nots not mediocrity if it meets your needs

jjbrien · 19-05-2008 7:57pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I wouldn't blame Irish Rail for not permitting Wifi on trains, If they could also ban the use of mobiles, video games, dvd players, Ipods and Walkmans it would make rail journeys much more pleasant and more considerate for those that want to sit back and relax. Gone were the days when one would read a book to pass the time on a journey. CIE Keep up the good work !

I would not agree with this. I travel quite alot an need my mobile, my mp3 player keeps me entertained on the train. What I would suggest like what NSB have in Norway is that they have a quite carage and a family carage as well. Works well in Norway and have seen it in opeation in the UK as well.

On the wifi issue whilts I would like to have this on the train the practalities are not good. In the UK only one of the train opperatators have this in place. IE and cie should be working more on increasing the customer experince as a whole.

Victor · 19-05-2008 8:45pm

Ok, rather than arguing with each other, how about making a suggestion as to how such a system might work?

Note:
1. Trains sometimes operate in tunnels, cuttings and narrow valleys with limited coverage.
2. How much would it cost and how would it be funded?
3. How would costs be re-couped? How would data be billed and how would money be collected?
4. Would you equip entire trains or just a limited number of cars, e.g. first class and one other?
5. What trains do you equip?
6. How would you deal with the whiners who say that the connections is too slow compared to Y or because of X?
7. What equipment would be fitted?
8. How do you deal with security issues?

godtabh · 19-05-2008 9:09pm

Victor wrote: »

Ok, rather than arguing with each other, how about making a suggestion as to how such a system might work?

Note:
1. Trains sometimes operate in tunnels, cuttings and narrow valleys with limited coverage.
2. How much would it cost and how would it be funded?
3. How would costs be re-couped? How would data be billed and how would money be collected?
4. Would you equip entire trains or just a limited number of cars, e.g. first class and one other?
5. What trains do you equip?
6. How would you deal with the whiners who say that the connections is too slow compared to Y or because of X?
7. What equipment would be fitted?
8. How do you deal with security issues?

Do you not think there could be the very reasons why Irish Rail did want to install it?

Again I dont see the point of providing a service that does nothing for the core business of Irish Rail.

The money spent on the installation of wifi could be put to far better use. Improving the PA systems in stations for example

Ham'nd'egger · 19-05-2008 10:37pm

This issue was mentioned on George Hook tonight. The technology expert said that he had heard that there may be an issue with Irish Rail communication radio frequencies and WIFI clashing with each other that means it would be problematic to install; I am sure that it will be repeated overnight or on podcast one of the days.

Paul, when you mention €10k; is that €10k per train or €10k for all the trains?

Irish Rail derails plans for Wi-Fi on trains

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