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Plumbing in a solid fuel stove

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  • 16-07-2013 5:38pm
    #1
    Toby250
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭


    Hi all I'm plumbing in a stove,the pic shows the layout of the house as it is now,what would be the best way to plumb it in,I can control the zone valves any way I want,I have 4 outlets on the boiler can I get away with just using 2 any advice or tip is much appreciated


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    #2
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    Toby250 wrote: »
    Hi all I'm plumbing in a stove,the pic shows the layout of the house as it is now,what would be the best way to plumb it in,I can control the zone valves any way I want,I have 4 outlets on the boiler can I get away with just using 2 any advice or tip is much appreciated

    For a start that pic you've drawn is a potential bomb if that's a solid fuel stove. Get a professional in please.


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    #3
    Outkast_IRE
    Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    Dtp79 wrote: »
    For a start that pic you've drawn is a potential bomb if that's a solid fuel stove. Get a professional in please.
    Its not, its the current setup with an oil boiler, I think he wants advice on how to connect in safely to this setup.

    Best of luck with it, I generally don't offer advice on solid fuel installations too much room for disaster with people who don't know what they are doing.


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    #4
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    My apologies. But don't attempt to do this yourself no matter how good a diy'er you think u are


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    #5
    Robbie.G
    Registered Users Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭Robbie.G


    I agree with the lads on this one.Solid fuel is a potential bomb so if your not sure or completely confident in fitting and have to ask don't touch it


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    #6
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    Robbie.G wrote: »
    I agree with the lads on this one.Solid fuel is a potential bomb so if your not sure or completely confident in fitting and have to ask don't touch it

    I'd edit your post robbie and change confident for competent!!


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    #7
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    Robbie.G wrote: »
    I agree with the lads on this one.Solid fuel is a potential bomb so if your not sure or completely confident in fitting and have to ask don't touch it


    I also agree with the others. Were all profesional plumbers and have seen what happens when things go wrong. I've seen a whole gable end blown out.
    House had to be demolished.
    Luckly nobody at home at time.

    Get proper advice, if you don't know the layout for dual then you shouldn't be doing it. Please do not be offended with all our replys. We try to help free of charge. But we want you to be safe ok.


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    #8
    Toby250
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭Toby250


    Thanks all for your replies and your concern,my girlfriends uncle is a plumber he'll be telling me what way it should be done as we don't have the money to pay someone to do this,I've done a lot of plumbing jobs before but nothing as hazardous as this so this is my hole reason for posting this so I don't kill someone,even though a pro will be instructing me I still want to get as much info as I can for my setup and put any ideas ye great minds come up with to him,my biggest worry is a power cut when the stove is hot.ill have a temp sensors on the stove outlet to turn on the pump around 55c for downstairs rads and zone controls for upstairs and water,but then if the power goes will the setup I have below be safe,


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    #9
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Do not attempt to install that system as per your diagram. It is dangerous in so many ways. Economics are no reason to to avoid safety & that diagram is blatantly avoiding safety.


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    #10
    Toby250
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭Toby250


    Can you explain to me why so I have better understanding,only one boiler will be on at any one time this will be controlled electronically so you can't have them on at the same time


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    #11
    demanufactured
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    You need a dual coil cylinder.
    Don't whatever you do install it like that.


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    #12
    corkplumber
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 259 ✭✭corkplumber


    Outkast_IRE wrote: »
    Its not, its the current setup with an oil boiler, I think he wants advice on how to connect in safely to this setup.

    Best of luck with it, I generally don't offer advice on solid fuel installations too much room for disaster with people who don't know what they are doing.

    I couldn't agree more. shane007 has given you good advice aswell


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    #13
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Toby250 wrote: »
    Can you explain to me why so I have better understanding,only one boiler will be on at any one time this will be controlled electronically so you can't have them on at the same time

    You have no gravity circuit.
    You have restricted solid fuel circuit in a number of locations.
    You have a single coil cylinder.
    You have no idea of the importance of installing solid fuel correctly. It is not a toy.
    Get a professional to design & install the system, not forums & not you, no offence intended.


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    #14
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    demanufactured wrote: »
    You need a dual coil cylinder.
    Don't whatever you do install it like that.

    "Gravity Circuit" "Dual Coil" 2 basic princples of dual. Your going to kill yourselves and your uncle in law is not much better.

    Don't be offended but you haven't a clue. Were only trying to advise you.

    Your sketch is totally dangerous.


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    #15
    corkplumber
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 259 ✭✭corkplumber


    shane0007 wrote: »
    You have no gravity circuit.
    You have restricted solid fuel circuit in a number of locations.
    You have a single coil cylinder.
    You have no idea of the importance of installing solid fuel correctly. It is not a toy.
    Get a professional to design & install the system, not forums & not you, no offence intended.

    shane I think you have confirmed in writing outcast_ire and my own reason for not giving advice


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    #16
    corkplumber
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 259 ✭✭corkplumber


    [QUOTE=scudo2;85572476 Your going to kill yourselves and your uncle in law .[/QUOTE]


    scudo have you the number for o conners on Shandon street for him. they do a 2 for 1 deal


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    #17
    Cedrus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    Toby250 wrote: »
    Can you explain to me why so I have better understanding,only one boiler will be on at any one time this will be controlled electronically so you can't have them on at the same time

    You can't control solid fuel electronically.
    The system has to be designed to be failsafe, when the power or any control component fails the boiler must be able to continue to dissipate heat safely. The physical layout is critical and that cannot be properly assessed by looking at schematics. Your schematic will not work safely for several reasons so it is fairly easy to say "No, Stop, you don't know enough to try this".

    However, it might be feasible to draw something that looks alright on paper but in reality would not work safely because critical components are too far apart, too high, too low, wrong size, wrong type. For this reason it would be irresponsible for anyone to "approve" a design only to read about the results in the paper later.

    A further problem you have is that you are trying to adapt a system which was never designed to have a solid fuel boiler on it. It might be possible, but it's more likely that you'd have to rip out a lot of what you already have and still end with a compromise.

    When I was 20, my boss took me to see an incorrectly installed AGA embedded in all four walls of a kitchen after exploding, before he let me design my first gravity system.


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    #18
    Toby250
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭Toby250


    Ok thanks all,I won't try anything ill wait till her uncle has a look and see what he thinks,this is why I asked I don't want to kill myself or anyone for that matter


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    #19
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    Toby250 wrote: »
    Ok thanks all,I won't try anything ill wait till her uncle has a look and see what he thinks,this is why I asked I don't want to kill myself or anyone for that matter

    Thanks
    It took a lot of posts for you to understand but at least you do now. Best of luck with the job.


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    #20
    Toby250
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭Toby250


    Ah yeah but you can't just say no its not safe to someone without explaining why lol,I'll post result when we have the money to pay a pro to do it
    Thanks again lads


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    #21
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Toby250 wrote: »
    Ah yeah but you can't just say no its not safe to someone without explaining why lol

    Get it wrong, they'll be scraping you off the walls for weeks :



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    #22
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    Toby250 wrote: »
    Ah yeah but you can't just say no its not safe to someone without explaining why lol,I'll post result when we have the money to pay a pro to do it
    Thanks again lads

    Sorry Toby but if we gave to much info you might think you've figured it out and go ahead without your uncle in laws on the job profesional input.
    A simple mistake could have been dangerous.
    Look at it from our side.
    Thanks


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    #23
    xual
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭xual


    I'm actually in the process of doing a similar thing. My new house is a bungalow where the cylinder is in the middle of the house. It is currently driven by a decent but inefficient oil burner. The plan is to install a boiler stove in the large living/dining room on the end of the house to help contribute to the heating. Its been proposed a stainless steel pressurized cylinder (dual) be installed and placed it over the boiler stove which will be placed in the sitting room ( as near as the clearance in the roof permits ). Then correctly knit the oil burner and boiler stove in a new system. The new stove is rated to drive 12 rads ( 6 doubles ).

    Am buying the stove myself - approx €1,300 - €1500
    tank and plumbing easy - approx €2,400 - straight forward job.
    tank and plumbing hard - approx €3,000 - digging to get at pipes.

    Was questioning the cost a bit but this post and video link has really brought the math/forces involved to light.

    I do have one question. What advantages do I gain for the type of cylinder I'm getting? And would a normal dual Copper cylinder ( despite being cheaper ) detract from the new system?

    Great thread BTW.


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    #24
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    xual wrote: »
    I'm actually in the process of doing a similar thing. My new house is a bungalow where the cylinder is in the middle of the house. It is currently driven by a decent but inefficient oil burner. The plan is to install a boiler stove in the large living/dining room on the end of the house to help contribute to the heating. Its been proposed a stainless steel pressurized cylinder (dual) be installed and placed it over the boiler stove which will be placed in the sitting room ( as near as the clearance in the roof permits ). Then correctly knit the oil burner and boiler stove in a new system. The new stove is rated to drive 12 rads ( 6 doubles ).

    Am buying the stove myself - approx €1,300 - €1500
    tank and plumbing easy - approx €2,400 - straight forward job.
    tank and plumbing hard - approx €3,000 - digging to get at pipes.

    Was questioning the cost a bit but this post and video link has really brought the math/forces involved to light.

    I do have one question. What advantages do I gain for the type of cylinder I'm getting? And would a normal dual Copper cylinder ( despite being cheaper ) detract from the new system?

    Great thread BTW.



    it is an easy job plumbing wise.....easy for somebody who knows what there doing and you clearly don't.
    You cannot do this yourself
    You most certainly cannot join solid fuel to a pressurised cylinder unless its a bomb you're trying to make. I'd be horrified if you come back and tell me a plumber quoted you to join solid fuel appliance into a pressurised cylinder
    When will people learn


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    #25
    xual
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭xual


    Should have clarified. I am absolutely NOT planning to do any of this myself. I'm a software engineer, I'll stick to what I'm good at and get a professional to do the rest :-) thanks for the well placed concern though.

    So I'm glad I posted. It is a plumber who is saying I should do just that. He said the boiler part of the system needs to be open and vented. 1 inch up and back to the boiler stove. I saw that pressurized dual cylinders are normally fitted with solar panels and a boiler stove would be a considerably bigger driver than a solar panel.

    I'm not a plumber so I won't get a lot of what you might say :-) but... Are those two components ( boiler stove and pressurized cylinder ) generally incompatible?

    What combo would you suggest ( totally off the cuff and not holding you to my plan or any other plan )


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    #26
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    xual wrote: »
    Should have clarified. I am absolutely NOT planning to do any of this myself. I'm a software engineer, I'll stick to what I'm good at and get a professional to do the rest :-) thanks for the well placed concern though.

    So I'm glad I posted. It is a plumber who is saying I should do just that. He said the boiler part of the system needs to be open and vented. 1 inch up and back to the boiler stove. I saw that pressurized dual cylinders are normally fitted with solar panels and a boiler stove would be a considerably bigger driver than a solar panel.

    I'm not a plumber so I won't get a lot of what you might say :-) but... Are those two components ( boiler stove and pressurized cylinder ) generally incompatible?

    What combo would you suggest ( totally off the cuff and not holding you to my plan or any other plan )

    Solid fuel needs to be run to the cylinder via gravity feed.
    You cannot run a gravity circuit to a pressurised cylinder because you cannot switch off a fire. It's extremely dangerous. I'd recommend getting a quote from a plumber who knows what there talking about. What part of the country are you in?


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    #27
    xual
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭xual


    @Dtp79

    Okay so for me I heard him mention gravity feed, but definitely the driving point was it was best to have a pressurized cylinder! As an engineer myself i was really trying to understand his plan. He seemed to be apprehensive about answering in case he there was a complication he couldn't quote for.

    I want to know what the right approach is and get a quote for that. I want the quote for the right approach so I can get the funds together to get the correct and safe job done :-)

    I'm in the south east. Near Carlow area. We don't have the keys for the new house yet so we have to arrange a viewing on the job. But if you know or can recommend guys in the area I'm happy to talk with them. Again I'm looking to get a proper and safe job done so I can enjoy the cost saving of having a dual Boilerstove/Oil system :-)

    Thanks for your input so far. Like I said a really realy useful thread.


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    #28
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    xual wrote: »
    @Dtp79

    Okay so for me I heard him mention gravity feed, but definitely the driving point was it was best to have a pressurized cylinder! As an engineer myself i was really trying to understand his plan. He seemed to be apprehensive about answering in case he there was a complication he couldn't quote for.

    I want to know what the right approach is and get a quote for that. I want the quote for the right approach so I can get the funds together to get the correct and safe job done :-)

    I'm in the south east. Near Carlow area. We don't have the keys for the new house yet so we have to arrange a viewing on the job. But if you know or can recommend guys in the area I'm happy to talk with them. Again I'm looking to get a proper and safe job done so I can enjoy the cost saving of having a dual Boilerstove/Oil system :-)

    Thanks for your input so far. Like I said a really realy useful thread.

    Pm sent


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    #29
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    I hate to think how many time bombs are out there by people who haden't a clue + DIYer's and and the boys wearing Stetsun hats.

    At least the last few lad's had the intelegence to ask us for info. even tho it did take a f's to get the message across.

    Keep up the good work and indirectly we might save a few lives.


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    #30
    xual
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭xual


    Hate to throw a cat among the pigeons but am I reading a contradiction?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056451733

    And I've had two plumbers tell me two different things :-) I think consistency or consensus on the hardware involved would be helpful.

    Interestingly I read this and this . So you can't have a boiler stove as the only driver of a pressurized system. BUT.. You may incorporate two systems as part of a larger overall system ( expensively but safely arranging each system accordingly )


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    #31
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    See what the other replys say,
    But in my view I think open vented is nice, simple and safe.Safety been the most important part.
    I never saw a sealed system stove but wait till the others reply, they know there stuff and won't waste your time.
    Oil boilers are my field.


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