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Bus Eireann Cuts (Feb 2015)

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    #32
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    slackerdude wrote: »
    Also it costs more to travel on Bus Eireann from Limerick to Newcastle West than it does to travel from Dublin to Limerick on the Dublin Coach service. Sadly, the Dublin Coach company will not operate beyond Limerick to Kerry probably due to the lack of a motorway between Limerick and Kerry.

    Actually private companies do operate services off motorways, for instance CityLinks Galway - Limerick - Cork service, CityLink Galway to Killarney service and CityLinks Galway to Clifden service.

    In fact given that CityLink now has a new Dublin Airport to Limerick route, perhaps in time they will extend it to Kerry.


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    #33
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    The route via Castlecomer is not going to be altered until June according to local media to allow time for more consultation.


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    #34
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Rothmans wrote: »
    I think they can, but from what I've seen, they have to fill out a form. I've seen it a few times, but I was surprised to see a few people decide to pay the fare instead of filling out the form. Madness!

    Afaik JJ Kavanagh's actually check the pps numbers provided on the slip of paper regularly to ensure that passes used are genuine and valid.


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    #35
    stehyl15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭stehyl15


    Bus Eireann should be scrapped altogher and regionalised for example have a local authority running bus transport in each county. Buses should only connect towns with no railway station theres no point on the state running a bus between two towns served by a rail connection. Routes should be run to towns with no rail comection for example with a route like Dublin-Donegal could take the train to Sligo and then make the onward journey to Donegal. It works in a lot of europe why shouldn't it work in Ireland.


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    #36
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    stehyl15 wrote: »
    Bus Eireann should be scrapped altogher and regionalised for example have a local authority running bus transport in each county. Buses should only connect towns with no railway station theres no point on the state running a bus between two towns served by a rail connection. Routes should be run to towns with no rail comection for example with a route like Dublin-Donegal could take the train to Sligo and then make the onward journey to Donegal. It works in a lot of europe why shouldn't it work in Ireland.

    I'm not sure that would work considering the higher price of train fares compared to bus services.

    If they made that change to the Dublin Donegal bus service, then, that would mean that the service that the 30 bus does to and from the airport, would end. The other aspect is that the Dublin Donegal 30 bus also takes people from Bus Aras and the airport to places like Butlersbridge, Belturbet, Derrylin, Bellanaleck and Enniskillen, which are not covered on the Derry - Donegal - Sligo service.

    http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1415719270-030.pdf

    http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1415968119-480.pdf

    Many commuters, who are from towns with train services to and from Dublin, opt for bus services in and out of Dublin instead of the train services.

    Matthews Coaches, as an example, run a very regular service throughout the day from Parnell Street Dublin, to Drogheda and Dundalk and a very regular daily service from both towns to Dublin. They also run daily services to and from Dublin and Laytown and Bettystown.

    http://commuter.matthews.ie/images/pdf/DundalkRev9Oct2014WEBPAGE.PDF

    http://commuter.matthews.ie/images/pdf/BettystownOct2014Rev003WEBPAGE.PDF

    Bus Éireann also runs a very regular bus service to and from Dundalk, Drogheda and Dublin.

    http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1358427979-100X.pdf

    The other difference is that Bus Éireann/Translink Ulster Bus along with various private bus companies, like Aircoach, Go Bus, City Link, JJ Kavanagh's and Dublin Coach run bus services throughout the night between Dublin and Belfast, from Donegal to Dublin, from Derry to Dublin, from Cork to Dublin, from Galway to Dublin and from Limerick to Dublin, long after the last train services each night between the cities, have stopped.

    These bus companies also run services daily at night, from Dublin to each of these cities, much later than the train services.


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    #37
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,558 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Following on from all of the nonsensical hyperbole that was published about these changes (not helped by the shoddy journalism that pre-empted it), the inevitable NTA Review of the implications of Route 5 being cancelled has now been published.

    And, as I predicted this will result in additional PSO services.

    In essence the plans involve the withdrawal of:

    - 1 commercial Bus Eireann service in each direction on weekdays (3 on Sundays) between Dublin & Waterford in either direction via Tullow, Enniscorthy and New Ross
    - 1 commercial Bus Eireann service in each direction on weekdays (none on Sundays) between Dublin & Rosslare in either direction via Tullow, Enniscorthy and Wexford
    - 3 commercial Bus Eireann services in each direction on weekdays (one on Sundays) between Dublin & Waterford in either direction via Arklow, Enniscorthy and New Ross

    These will be replaced with:
    - Extending the existing commuter Bus Eireann PSO route 132 service to start at Bunclody rather than Tullow
    - Add an additional morning Bus Eireann PSO route 132 service from Bunclody to Dublin and late afternoon return
    - Add two additional return Bus Eireann PSO services from Dublin to Tullow during the day
    - Extend two return Bus Eireann commercial route 4 services to operate Dublin Airport-Dublin-Waterford-New Ross and v.v.
    - New rural transport services from New Ross and Clonroche to Enniscorthy to connect with Bus Eireann, Wexford Bus or Irish Rail services to Dublin and Waterford
    - New rural transport services from Tullow via Bunclody to Enniscorthy to connect with Bus Eireann services to/from Dublin and JJ Kavanagh services to/from Carlow

    Detailed timetables are included, and it's clear that nowhere is being abandoned - additional PSO funded services will fill the gaps in those locations that no longer have a service once route 5 is withdrawn.

    Full details are available from the link quoted below:

    Údarás Náisiúnta Iompair, National Transport Authority
    Latest Updates
    19th March 2015

    Review of Bus Éireann Expressway Route 5 withdrawal

    March 19, 2015

    The National Transport Authority today (March 19, 2015) published its Review of Withdrawal of Bus Éireann’s licenced Route 5 Expressway service (Waterford to Dublin via Wexford corridor).

    In the Review, the Authority undertakes a detailed analysis of the impact of the removal of Bus Éireann Expressway Route 5 on the affected towns’ public transport links. It determines that some of these links should be maintained to meet a social need, and it proposes that these links are established by:
    1) Reconfiguration and additional services on Route 132 to serve Tullow and Bunclody connecting to Dublin
    2) New rural transport services to connect the towns of Clonroche, Bunclody and Tullow to Enniscorthy and New Ross for onward connections to Dublin, Wexford and Waterford.

    The Next Steps, as determined by the Authority are:

    1. NTA to procure the new rural transport services
    2. Bus Éireann to put in place the reconfigured 132 service
    3. NTA to put in place the connecting rural transport services
    4. Bus Éireann to commence amended Expressway Route 4.


    All to be co-ordinated in advance of the withdrawal of Bus Éireann Expressway Route 5.
    The Review of Withdrawal of Bus Éireann’s licenced Route 5 Expressway service (Waterford to Dublin via Wexford corridor Report is available to download and read.

    For more information see HERE

    I'd imagine that a similar review will take place to replace Bus Eireann commercial services routes 7 and 21 with new PSO options in the locations that will be impacted by their re-routing or withdrawal.


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    #38
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    well, lets hope they will be as much use to those effected by the with-drawn routes. we'l wait and see

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #39
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    end of the road wrote: »
    well, lets hope they will be as much use to those effected by the with-drawn routes. we'l wait and see

    It's a relief for sure, I can't afford to drive at the moment, the old phantom 132 is coming to the rescue ;). It used to tail the five and it was less packed as it was carrying people that wanted to go through Harold's Cross as opposed to Tallaght. I know they need the numbers to justify the service but the students can be noisy enough at times. Nothing as bad as being in the crossfire of a conversation with the seats in front of you about what happened at the weekend and you've forgotten your headphones. No offence to the students here.


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    #40
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Interesting to note that the new PSO services will accept free travel pass holders without payment of any concessionary fare and this is to include the private Wexford local link services. This appears to be opposite to the direction the NTA appeared to be going previously with other privately operated PSO services.
    3.3 Fares
    The fares on the proposed reconfigured Route 132 will not be more than what is currently paid on the Bus Éireann Route 5 services and the same ticket range will be on offer. Free Travel Passholders will be able to continue to travel for free on this service.
    The fares on the new rural transport services will be in the same order as those that are currently charged on Wexford Local link’s services. The details will be made available at a later date.
    Free Travel Passholders will be able to travel for free on this service. The Authority will seek a further payment from the Department of Social Protection to compensate for the extra free travel passenger journeys on Wexford Local link services.
    (emphasis by me)


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    #41
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Interesting to note that the new PSO services will accept free travel pass holders without payment of any concessionary fare and this is to include the private Wexford local link services. This appears to be opposite to the direction the NTA appeared to be going previously with other privately operated PSO services.

    (emphasis by me)
    just a guess, but i'd imagine its to get the numbers. no free travel, little use, those who need left with no access to public transport. was the same done for the south wexford rail replacement service i wonder?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #42
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    - Extend two return Bus Eireann commercial route 4 services to operate Dublin Airport-Dublin-Waterford-New Ross and v.v.

    I really can't see why this is necessary.


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    #43
    currins_02
    Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭currins_02


    2 Private operators took and won separate but parallel legal challenges before Christmas to get into the free travel scheme, challenging the legality of the cap on it. One was Martin Leydon in Cavan for his Swanlinbar route and the other was McGonagle Bus Company in Donegal on their replacement for the former Lough Swilly Derry-Buncrana service.

    http://www.northernsound.ie/news/private-operator-in-west-cavan-wins-fight-on-free-travel-passes/

    http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/mediazone/localmediareports/weekending29november/freetravelschemerestoredforelderlyanddisabl/

    http://www.highlandradio.com/2014/11/19/use-of-travel-passes-restored-on-buncrana-to-derry-bus-route/

    As such that would seem to change the landscape in terms of whether services (new, old or amended) are in any way prevented from joining the scheme I would imagine


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    #44
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,847 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    currins_02 wrote: »
    2 Private operators took and won separate but parallel legal challenges before Christmas to get into the free travel scheme, challenging the legality of the cap on it. One was Martin Leydon in Cavan for his Swanlinbar route and the other was McGonagle Bus Company in Donegal on their replacement for the former Lough Swilly Derry-Buncrana service.
    <snip>
    I dont see where its mentioned that they won their legal challenge, just that the services were taken under the wing of the free travel scheme.

    small but subtle difference


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    #45
    currins_02
    Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭currins_02


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    I dont see where its mentioned that they won their legal challenge, just that the services were taken under the wing of the free travel scheme.

    small but subtle difference

    Whatever works for you.

    In my opinion, small, subtle but in the context of the point I was making largely irrelevant.

    As with many things here unless there is a complete transcript and diatribe posts are nit picked.

    Both operators, working independently largely unaware of the other had legal teams working on this. Complaints were lodged with the EU commission (and as per the above link) it ruled in favour of the complainants in that it was unfair to block entry to the scheme. There was also legal papers lodged here in our courts. At a very late stage, prior to proceedings beginning, the state conceded their position and allowed the operators into the system. Can be spun whatever way works for anyone, but in my view they undertook a legal process at EU and local level and achieved their goal (despite all indications initially being it would never happen) - in my view they won, we'll agree in a small and subtle way to disagree if that works.

    For reference there were a number of grounds for the proceedings and complaints including (and pardon my non legal wording):
    - System was "closed" to new entrants which is anti competitive, a barrier to new services and possibly in breach of EU law (which was largely the point upheld by the EU)
    - System was "capped" and payments frozen to incumbent operators, since that a small number of members have ceased trading while a further small number have opted out of the system due to non-viable levels of payments, Where does the surplus created go?
    - In the case of McGonagle in Donegal the service was a direct replacement for the collapsed Lough Swilly Service but they challenged why, subject to meeting some level of criteria, they could not take up the money (in part or in full) previously allocated to the Swilly service (which ceased when company went belly up, was, allegedly the oldest transport company in Europe and served rural Donegal which is largely ignored by Bus Eireann). McGonagles link Buncrana with Derry, Buncrana is the 2nd or 3rd biggest town in Donegal yet has no Bus Eireann links at rural or national level and relies of private operators like McGonagle, NorthWest Busways, John McGinley Coaches etc. The campaign to get the pass back was high profile in the area and seemed to enjoy unanimous political support from all parties in that area.

    In the context of this thread, I was inferring it will probably become common for new services to be included in the scheme again where a need exists as these operators have proven if a valid case is made the system can be beaten as it were. In areas poorly served by the state sponsored CIE group (not condemning their need to be commerical on certain routes etc) the population deserve some level of service and allowing use of passes would be a minimum IMO.

    That's not withstanding who the passes are issued to etc needs massive overhaul.

    Now, back to the thread, I suggest....


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    #46
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    New timetable for X7

    http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1434530922-007X.pdf

    Didn't notice route 4 had changed and good to see the additional college services added. Lots of non stop services to compete with IE and Dublin Coach on Sundays.


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    #47
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    New timetable for X7

    http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1434530922-007X.pdf

    Didn't notice route 4 had changed and good to see the additional college services added. Lots of non stop services to compete with IE and Dublin Coach on Sundays.
    Those college services were always operated but not listed on the timetable, the NTA apparently now insist on these auxiliary services being added to the timetables.


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    #48
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,558 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/replacement-bus-services-following-changes-to-expressway-route-7-operational-from-sunday-28-june-2015/
    Replacement bus services following changes to Expressway Route 7 – Operational from Sunday 28 June 2015

    24/06/15

    The National Transport Authority, in conjunction with Bus Éireann, Carlow-Kilkenny Locallink and Cork Locallink, has put in place a number of bus services following changes to Bus Éireann Expressway Route 7, which no longer will provide services to a number of locations including Cork, Fermoy, Mitchelstown, Carrick-on-Suir, Castlecomer and Athy from Sunday next (June 28).

    The Authority has extended Bus Éireann Route 245 for people travelling between Clonmel and Cork also serving Ardfinnan, Clogheen & Ballyporeen. Cork Locallink will additionally provide services on Route 245C giving an enhanced level of service between Mitchelstown and Fermoy via Kildorrery & Glanworth.

    The Authority has introduced a new connecting service (Route 817C) provided by Carlow-Kilkenny Locallink between Carrick-on-Suir and Grangemockler where passengers can change on to Route 717 provided by JJ Kavanagh & Sons and revised Route X7 provided by Bus Éireann for onward travel to Callan, Kilkenny and Dublin City.

    The revised services will come into operation on Sunday next; June 28, and the Free Travel Pass will be accepted.

    The Authority is also in the process of procuring additional services on Route 817 between Kilkenny and Dublin City and between Naas and Castlecomer including serving intermediate locations at Moneenroe, Ballylinan, Athy and Kilcullen. To ensure continuity of service for the affected locations, temporary arrangements have been put in place for Bus Éireann to provide these services pending the completion of the procurement process.

    Kildare South Dublin Locallink is procuring a service on behalf of the Authority that provides a number of services between Castledermot and Naas.

    All these additional services are being provided by the Authority, with funding allocated by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Paschal Donohue T.D.

    Full details of the relevant services are found at the following links:

    Bus Éireann Route 245 incorporating Local Link Cork services

    Local Link Carlow-Kilkenny Route 817C

    Bus Éireann Expressway Route X7 revised timetable

    JJ Kavanagh & Sons Route 717:

    Route 817 Kilkenny – Dublin City & Naas – Castlecomer


    The National Transport Authority undertook a review of the effect of the changes to Expressway Route 7 which is available here:
    “Review of withdrawal of Bus Éireann and J.J. Kavanagh licensed services from locations along the Clonmel to Dublin and Waterford to Dublin corridors”


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