Do you think its fair parents bring young babies on flights for a holiday ?

keithclancy · 12-07-2013 9:13am #1

I've heard mixed opinions on this one.

Basically on the continent (I work in Germany and live in the Netherlands) most people I know wouldn't dream on going on a flight with a young baby (young meaning under a year old), mainly because:

A. Babies can't/don't know how to equalise and it can be very painful even as an adult if you are congested etc when flying.

B. There's plenty of places you can drive to or simply go on a holiday close by with the ferry.

C. They simply stay at home and use their days off to spend time at home doing stuff and organise activities to do in the local area, they'll put off foreign holiday altogether until the kids are old enough to carry their own stuff, understand whats going on.

D. Travelling anywhere with a baby when you don't have a car is a pain in the hole.

In Ireland I've seen the complete polar opposite, with people going off to Mediterranean destinations with babies a few months old.

Why is this the case ?

Myself, I don't see the point, why put yourself and your child through that much hassle just to get a bit of fun in the sun, Ireland has some great spots to go to and enjoy yourself without flying anywhere.

bkavanagh · 12-07-2013 9:15am

long flight - NO

bkavanagh · 12-07-2013 9:15am

unless its really necessary

The Backwards Man · 12-07-2013 9:16am

There are many circumstances where it is necessary for people to fly with young children in my opinion, going on holiday isn't one of them. I'd include children up to at least seven years of age in that.

intellectual dosser · 12-07-2013 9:16am

Is it fair? Yes, everyone is entitled to do what they want.
Would I do it? Completely different question, haven't been in the situation yet.

Everyone in Ireland loves a bit of sun once a year, on the continent they can drive to reach whatever it is they like, so its a bit different.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 12-07-2013 9:17am

Why not? families are allowed holiday too you know!
Remember the crying baby of today is Boards moderator of the future, so dont pi4s them off:)

osarusan · 12-07-2013 9:18am

If they want to go ,they should go. There's no reason to be concerned for the welfare of the child at all.

listermint · 12-07-2013 9:18am

Meh, Its not your child.

Id love to be brought places as a child. There is not swimming pools outdoors in ireland that are fun.

Speisekarte · 12-07-2013 9:21am

I went to The Canaries with 14 month old. Never again, it's not a holiday, its hard labour.

McTigs · 12-07-2013 9:23am

Flying with a small baby is a doddle, it's when they are between 1 and 3 is the problem.

Myself and my wife travelled from galway - dublin- amsterdam - portland, oregon (10 hour flight) with a 5 month old and it was a breeze.

We made the same journey when she was 2 and i felt every inch. She's a good kid and didn't bother anyone but keeping them from getting bored is serious work on a long haul.

No she's 3 and we have another 6 month old and we're heading to the south of france in a few weeks and i'm not a bit nervous. The baby is too small to care and the 3 year old is old enough to understand and will just do her colouring and stuff till we land.

The Backwards Man · 12-07-2013 9:23am

listermint wrote: »

Meh, Its not your child.

Id love to be brought places as a child. There is not swimming pools outdoors in ireland that are fun.

You could have spent the first year of your life in Disneyworld and you wouldn't remember a single solitary thing about it.

What's the point?

Hannibal Smith · 12-07-2013 9:25am

Know plenty of people on the continent who have flown with young babies. ..ive met people on holidays who have flown there with young babies so I wouldn't follow your theory that its not the done thing on the continent at all.

No babies shouldn't be banned fron flights

greentea is just wrong · 12-07-2013 9:26am

Nothing worse than being stuck beside a screaming child/baby for a long flight.

Don't think it's fair on both the child and also the other passengers. Personally think they should only be on long flights when absolutely necessary (moving etc).

Robbo · 12-07-2013 9:29am

"I'm letting them cry it out" has been the starting point of most non-alcohol related air rage incidents.

keithclancy · 12-07-2013 9:31am

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Know plenty of people on the continent who have flown with young babies. ..ive met people on holidays who have flown there with young babies so I wouldn't follow your theory that its not the done thing on the continent at all.

Not a theory, its based on having a groups of friends/acquaintances from three different countries.

Also if you saw the amount of Dutch Campervans/Caravans in the summer you'd get the idea.

No babies shouldn't be banned fron flights

I never said they should be, simply asked do you think its fair on a young baby when they have no choice.

vitani · 12-07-2013 9:32am

Flying doesn't have to be torture for babies. I brought mine to the UK when she was four months old and she slept for the entire flight (although, to be fair, it's only an hour long). The people sitting behind us actually laughed when I stood up with her at the end of the flight as they hadn't realised there was a baby in front of them at all.

She's two and a half now and the thought of flying anywhere with her brings me out in a cold sweat. Although, having said that, I can see that she's getting to the stage where it will become doable in the next year or so.

oldyouth · 12-07-2013 9:32am

Very hard to comment on what is 'fair' with regard to other people. As for me, I wouldn't dream of bringing a young child on an overseas holiday. Too much hassle for all concerned and of no benefit to the child itself.

wexie · 12-07-2013 9:32am

There's no reason not to, ours have been on many flights, both long and short haul, from the age of 5 weeks in one case.
The problem is that a lot of parents aren't prepared very well (or at all) to make sure they're entertained and not harassing other passengers.

If you're bringing young kids on a plane you should make sure that they remain your problem and not become someone else's. Make sure there is plenty of food, drink and entertainment and it needn't be a problem at all.

It's the parents that have young ones acting the maggot, all the while blissfully unaware as they have their headphones on and are ignoring the child, that need a good smack in the head.

And for those of you implying kids shouldn't be allowed on planes....can I just ask if you're aware Ireland is, in fact, an island, and therefore surrounded by sea?

wexie · 12-07-2013 9:34am

keithclancy wrote: »

Not a theory, its based on having a groups of friends/acquaintances from three different countries.

Also if you saw the amount of Dutch Campervans/Caravans in the summer you'd get the idea.

I never said they should be, simply asked do you think its fair on a young baby when they have no choice.

That's because in Holland you can hop in the car in the evening and be pretty much anywhere in Europe the following day...(heavy foot, maybe not so much in a campervan but you get the idea)

Whereas here it's 16 hours on the boat to get to France...

Speisekarte · 12-07-2013 9:36am

The Backwards Man wrote: »

You could have spent the first year of your life in Disneyworld and you wouldn't remember a single solitary thing about it.

What's the point?

But they still would have enjoyed it regardless of remembering.

wexie · 12-07-2013 9:36am

keithclancy wrote: »

I never said they should be, simply asked do you think its fair on a young baby when they have no choice.

Don't know why it wouldn't be fair? Ours are 3 and 5 now and they love going on a plane, it's a big adventure and there's always something good at the other end, being a holiday or coming back home after a holiday.

It's all in how you present it to the child and how you act yourself while travelling. If you get all stressed out it's not going to be a pleasant experience, if you're going 'on an adventure' it can be great fun.

vicwatson · 12-07-2013 9:38am

wexie wrote: »

There's no reason not to, ours have been on many flights, both long and short haul, from the age of 5 weeks in one case.
The problem is that a lot of parents aren't prepared very well (or at all) to make sure they're entertained and not harassing other passengers.

If you're bringing young kids on a plane you should make sure that they remain your problem and not become someone else's. Make sure there is plenty of food, drink and entertainment and it needn't be a problem at all.

It's the parents that have young ones acting the maggot, all the while blissfully unaware as they have their headphones on and are ignoring the child, that need a good smack in the head.

And for those of you implying kids shouldn't be allowed on planes....can I just ask if you're aware Ireland is, in fact, an island, and therefore surrounded by sea?

+1

Fail to prepare, prepare to fail

fishy fishy · 12-07-2013 9:38am

keithclancy wrote: »

I've heard mixed opinions on this one.

Basically on the continent (I work in Germany and live in the Netherlands) most people I know wouldn't dream on going on a flight with a young baby (young meaning under a year old), mainly because:

A. Babies can't/don't know how to equalise and it can be very painful even as an adult if you are congested etc when flying.

B. There's plenty of places you can drive to or simply go on a holiday close by with the ferry.

C. They simply stay at home and use their days off to spend time at home doing stuff and organise activities to do in the local area, they'll put off foreign holiday altogether until the kids are old enough to carry their own stuff, understand whats going on.

D. Travelling anywhere with a baby when you don't have a car is a pain in the hole.

In Ireland I've seen the complete polar opposite, with people going off to Mediterranean destinations with babies a few months old.

Why is this the case ?

Myself, I don't see the point, why put yourself and your child through that much hassle just to get a bit of fun in the sun, Ireland has some great spots to go to and enjoy yourself without flying anywhere.

sure why not just keep them locked up in the basement till they are 18 - saves hassle and having to deal with them - pesky kids. :rolleyes:

How Strange · 12-07-2013 9:38am

Maybe you should ask your continental friends if it is 'fair' to bring young babies on a 20 hour car journey to Spain or France or wherever. Personally I'd prefer a 2-4 hour flight with a young baby than a painfully long car journey in an overpacked car.

I've brought my son on a few flights and except for one 6.30am flight he was as good as gold and not a peep out of him. On the other hand, the grumpy f*cker in front of us on one flight who kept kicking his seat back and hitting my son in the head made a complete show of himself and I now feel grumpy f*ckers should be banned from flying.

mattjack · 12-07-2013 9:39am

keithclancy wrote: »

Not a theory, its based on having a groups of friends/acquaintances from three different countries.

Also if you saw the amount of Dutch Campervans/Caravans in the summer you'd get the idea.

I never said they should be, simply asked do you think its fair on a young baby when they have no choice.

Is it possible your friends are like minded individuals without kids who have reached a similar conclusion based on an occasional flight , if one of them flew every two weeks on package holidays or worked on aircraft would their view viable ?

Maybe the Dutch just like that way of holidaying , aren't campervans here extremely expensive to buy and maintain , I don't know what our facilties are like for them.

SEPT 23 1989 · 12-07-2013 9:39am

I don't think its fair on the child,parents or other passengers, i have a two year old and i would not bring him near a plane at the moment,we will holiday in Ireland until he gets a bit older

xzanti · 12-07-2013 9:39am

Took my Son to Lanzarote when he was 6 months old.. no problem at all, pressure seemed to have no effect on him.. he was sucking a soother while landing anyway.

Took him to the same place for a second time at 2 and it was a little trickier tbh.. he did get restless and bored..

Took him again at 2.5 and this time I brought lots of puzzles and play doh etc for him and he was fine.

Also, if your child is over 2, Teedex is your best friend.

keithclancy · 12-07-2013 9:41am

wexie wrote: »

That's because in Holland you can hop in the car in the evening and be pretty much anywhere in Europe the following day...(heavy foot, maybe not so much in a campervan but you get the idea)

Whereas here it's 16 hours on the boat to get to France...

I would be completely the opposite way, the boat is a doddle compared to a Campervan trip to the south of Germany from here.

E.G. from Eindhoven to Freiburg with a Campervan you need to split it up about 2 days otherwise its not really worth it.

The Ferry is great, you park up, have a beer eat your dinner, wake up in the morning and have a shower and then drive off nice and fresh.

I wouldn't see either one being more difficult that the other, the Camper trip you just need to plan a lot better as Stelleplatzes and Campsites fill up quickly in the summertime and you can't camp 'wild' in Germany.

mattjack wrote: »

Is it possible your friends are like minded individuals without kids who have reached a similar conclusion based on an occasional flight , if one of them flew every two weeks on package holidays or worked on aircraft would their view viable ?

Maybe the Dutch just like that way of holidaying , aren't campervans here extremely expensive to buy and maintain , I don't know what our facilties are like for them.

Most of my German friends have kids, Dutch friends, maybe half of them.

seamus · 12-07-2013 9:41am

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong it tbh. A big foreign holiday is probably a bit pointless unless the child is old enough to run around and have fun and appreciate it, but if someone wants to do it, I don't see the problem.

Sun holidays with a baby (i.e. under 2) - what's the point? You can't go out and sit on the beach all day with the child, you can't go out for dinner and get half sloshed, and they'll be uncomfortable as hell in the heat and won't sleep.

mitosis · 12-07-2013 9:42am

The babies are seldom the problem. More likely it will be the parents who don't prepare the child properly, and don't manage the child properly. Flew all over the world with ours from a couple of months old - never bothered anyone else on a flight, never gave us any trouble anywhere.

Always the possibility I am perfect, I suppose, but unlikely :pac:

wexie · 12-07-2013 9:42am

xzanti wrote: »

Also, if your child is over 2, Teedex is your best friend.

and when they're younger : BOOBIES!!!!

My wife used to breastfeed while landing and taking off and one time, just as the plane started quieting down a bit our youngest let out an epic belch that was heard several rows away. Stunned silence at first but when people realised it came from a 6 month old there were quite a few giggles.

Frank Black · 12-07-2013 9:43am

Not this **** again.

It only feels like a couple of weeks since the last 'babies on flight thread'.

Allow me to summarise;

Those without kids:
'No, children/babies should never be allowed outside their home until they are 18years old. The sight of a baby in an airplane/restaurant/anywhere else I happen to be, is very upsetting to me.'

Those with kids
'You have no understanding what it's like to have kids and I really don't give a **** what you think anyway you selfish bastards'

Wacker The Attacker · 12-07-2013 9:44am

probably beats leaving them at home on their own

springwest · 12-07-2013 9:45am

well, it is really a troublesome thing to travel with a young baby, but it depends on everyone's will, some people like to travel with their babies, so i think it do not exist about fair or unfair matter, just as you like

12-07-2013 9:46am

Our eldest was 2 the first time we took her to the Caribbean. We flew via London and she was sitting in between us. When we landed in Florida, the couple behind us were shocked there was a small person in the seat as there wasn't a peep from her. We go as a family every year to the US. Being prepared is key. I fill a little rucksack for each of them with new toys/sweets/books/colouring stuff and they have to mind their own bag. Doing this important job takes great concentration from them

(eldest is I now) I wouldn't dream of not hiring a car over there. DH was very apprehensive about it at first...it'll be grand, I told him....

keithclancy · 12-07-2013 9:47am

wexie wrote: »

Don't know why it wouldn't be fair? Ours are 3 and 5 now and they love going on a plane, it's a big adventure and there's always something good at the other end, being a holiday or coming back home after a holiday.

It's all in how you present it to the child and how you act yourself while travelling. If you get all stressed out it's not going to be a pleasant experience, if you're going 'on an adventure' it can be great fun.

If you read the original post, 3 - 5 they have some idea whats going on, a baby 2-3 months old has no idea whats going on.

SEPT 23 1989 · 12-07-2013 9:49am

keithclancy wrote: »

2-3 months old has no idea whats going on.

2-3 months would be easy to bring away

the 2-3 year olds would be ticking time bombs

wexie · 12-07-2013 9:50am

keithclancy wrote: »

I would be completely the opposite way, the boat is a doddle compared to a Campervan trip to the south of Germany from here.

E.G. from Eindhoven to Freiburg with a Campervan you need to split it up about 2 days otherwise its not really worth it.

Most of my German friends have kids, Dutch friends, maybe half of them.

Would you not drive overnight? We used to leave friday evening, kids asleep in the back, parents taking turns driving and we'd be in Spain saturday afternoon. Kids need a lot less entertaining when they're asleep

I know a campervan is slower but still.

OldNotWIse · 12-07-2013 9:51am

Some have to. I have many cousins who have moved overseas from Ireland for employment/relationships etc so of course they want to travel home and see family.

I personally hate babies on planes, and will sit as far away from one as possible, but that's just cause they're noisy. Doesnt mean they shouldnt be allowed though.

Also think its a little unfair to bring young babies to very warm climates.

grarf · 12-07-2013 9:52am

One way of equalizing the ear pressure in young kids/babies is to give them something to eat/breast/bottle at takeoff. Same effect as adults chewing gum.

Personally, I know I will fly with my child once it's born - simply because I live here in Ireland, and my family are in Germany. I do want the child to have contact with his/her grandparents, and while they will visit us here, it's a two-way street.
I'd say the child will be about six months old when we'll fly first. thankfully it's only a short-ish flight, about 2 hours.
Long-haul, though, definitely not.

McTigs · 12-07-2013 9:52am

xzanti wrote: »

Took my Son to Lanzarote when he was 6 months old.. no problem at all, pressure seemed to have no effect on him.. he was sucking a soother while landing anyway.

Took him to the same place for a second time at 2 and it was a little trickier tbh.. he did get restless and bored..

Took him again at 2.5 and this time I brought lots of puzzles and play doh etc for him and he was fine.

Also, if your child is over 2, Teedex is your best friend.

yup, like i said, up to 12 months is grand over 2 and a half-3 is grand, in between is very tough but like someone said it's all in the preparation.

keith16 · 12-07-2013 9:53am

wexie wrote: »

It's the parents that have young ones acting the maggot, all the while blissfully unaware as they have their headphones on and are ignoring the child, that need a good smack in the head.

And for those of you implying kids shouldn't be allowed on planes....can I just ask if you're aware Ireland is, in fact, an island, and therefore surrounded by sea?

Absolute nail on the head. I don't mind a crying baby - in fact, they are usually not crying for long, plus, there are lot more annoying noises on an aircraft so noise cancelling headphones FTW.

What headphones can't do is stop kids behind or in front of you jumping up and down, banging your seat etc.

Had to ask two kids recently to stop banging my chair while their parents had their head stuck in an i-pad.

xzanti · 12-07-2013 9:53am

seamus wrote: »

Sun holidays with a baby (i.e. under 2) - what's the point? You can't go out and sit on the beach all day with the child, you can't go out for dinner and get half sloshed, and they'll be uncomfortable as hell in the heat and won't sleep.

Well, I wouldn't say it's pointless but it's definitely different.. it's really a case of structuring the day around the baby..

Lounging on the beach and sipping cocktails by the pool is replaced with long walks with the pram and making sure the baby is kept hydrated.

We just had our evening meal a little earlier than usual and didn't really drink much alcohol, maybe a couple of glasses of wine when we got back and he was asleep.

We're all entitled to a Holiday, even new parents.. just don't expect it to be anything like the holidays you had when you were childless.. cause you're in for a shock

But it's lovely for what it is

keithclancy · 12-07-2013 9:54am

wexie wrote: »

Would you not drive overnight? We used to leave friday evening, kids asleep in the back, parents taking turns driving and we'd be in Spain saturday afternoon. Kids need a lot less entertaining when they're asleep

I know a campervan is slower but still.

Car I would drive at night no problem, some of the roads are just too crappy for driving a campervan/caravan at night for it to be safe.

E.G. There are parts of road in SW Germany and Basically all of Belgium with two trenches melted into them, if you hit them the wrong way the caravan/camper can start swaying all over the place and you end up having to buy new trousers.

Smaller camper like a VW T5 would be doable, but quite small for 2-3 kids.

Frank Black · 12-07-2013 9:54am

OldNotWIse wrote: »

.

Also think its a little unfair to bring young babies to very warm climates.

Should we fly the young babies out of Ireland to somewhere cooler when it gets above 25degrees too?

Dave H · 12-07-2013 9:56am

I can't see the problem with bringing a baby on a flight. I have been on countless flights where there's been one or more babies on board, and let's face it, the worst they'll do is cry. I think it's unfair to expect the parents to have to either leave their child with a child minder or with other members of their family just to save the sensitive ears of a few fussy passengers. I know I wouldn't.
My wife is expecting our first in a few weeks and since we travel a lot, we will be including our child in all our journeys, obviously once we get over the initial shock to the system

Since we'll have this new member of the family, I will want to experience different places, cultures etc with them, regardless of how young they are or if they remember it or not.

wexie · 12-07-2013 9:57am

keithclancy wrote: »

Car I would drive at night no problem, some of the roads are just too crappy for driving a campervan/caravan at night for it to be safe.

E.G. There are parts of road in SW Germany and Basically all of Belgium with two trenches melted into them, if you hit them the wrong way the caravan/camper can start swaying all over the place and you end up having to buy new trousers.

Smaller camper like a VW T5 would be doable, but quite small for 2-3 kids.

Hadn't thought of that, never driven a big campervan but I can see how that would be pretty scary alright.

In a bigger campervan could the kids sleep while you drive? Or does everybody need to be seated while driving?

syklops · 12-07-2013 9:57am

keithclancy wrote: »

I've heard mixed opinions on this one.

Basically on the continent (I work in Germany and live in the Netherlands) most people I know wouldn't dream on going on a flight with a young baby (young meaning under a year old), mainly because:

A. Babies can't/don't know how to equalise and it can be very painful even as an adult if you are congested etc when flying.

B. There's plenty of places you can drive to or simply go on a holiday close by with the ferry.

C. They simply stay at home and use their days off to spend time at home doing stuff and organise activities to do in the local area, they'll put off foreign holiday altogether until the kids are old enough to carry their own stuff, understand whats going on.

D. Travelling anywhere with a baby when you don't have a car is a pain in the hole.

In Ireland I've seen the complete polar opposite, with people going off to Mediterranean destinations with babies a few months old.

Why is this the case ?

Myself, I don't see the point, why put yourself and your child through that much hassle just to get a bit of fun in the sun, Ireland has some great spots to go to and enjoy yourself without flying anywhere.

Ireland does have some great spots, but the weather is not guaranteed. As a fellow passenger you might say, why does that parent put themselves through 2 hours of entertaining a baby just to get a week of sun, but if they go to Bundoran, the parent could easily spend a week of entertaining a baby in a small hotel room, looking out at rain.

I used to live abroad and I am sure I annoyed the bejaysus out of my friends and family with statements like "Why do the Irish do bleh, over here they do blah and its much better...". In Germany you can drive to Spain, Croatia, even Azerbajzhan, and you can bring the mother in law, and the kitchen sink with you. Things are different in Ireland. To get to France, its a choice of airline or ferry. To a parent with a small child that boils down to "Two hours in a confined space to entertain the child, or 14 hours in a confined space to entertain a child? I'll take the two hours I think".

gobnaitolunacy · 12-07-2013 9:57am

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

probably beats leaving them at home on their own

Oh I don't know, maybe leave them with a hape of Micro Machines and some paint tins, bag of nails etc and they'll have a great time.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 12-07-2013 9:59am

My first flight was at 6 weeks old and I slept through it. For the first 10 years of my life I travelled regularly including annual flights from Botswana to Ireland and return. I'm glad I had that too. I may not remember all the places I've been to but I have the story and the travel big and the urge to go back to all that again. It certainly never did me any harm.

Hannibal Smith · 12-07-2013 9:59am

keithclancy wrote: »

Not a theory, its based on having a groups of friends/acquaintances from three different countries.

Also if you saw the amount of Dutch Campervans/Caravans in the summer you'd get the idea.

I never said they should be, simply asked do you think its fair on a young baby when they have no choice.

And im saying based on my circle of friends and people I've met on holiday...bringing babies on flights is the done thing on the continent.
You never asked was it fair on the young baby when they have no choice. You're thread title asked should babies be allowed on flights and your opening post referred to how you think things are done on the continent and whether, for a a variety of reasons a baby should be allowed on a flight. You never asked if it was fair on the child though.

To whoever said about it being unfairon other passengers...thats rubbish...drunk larger louts top the most annoying passengers by far.

Do you think its fair parents bring young babies on flights for a holiday ?

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