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The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

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24567…131

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    #32
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    Humanly speaking, the only hope the RCC has is in offering up a few notable scapegoats and getting the lid back on as soon as possible. If the full truth emerges, its claim to be the true Church will be seen for the con it is.

    I don't agree with this. I believe that the Church in Ireland will suffer for at least the next 20 to 30 years. The Eucharistic Congress in 2012 will be snubbed by the Pope and all high-ranking Cardinals for all that has gone on. We'll probably get one token high-ranking Cardinal in attendence (if we're lucky). We're going to see a big reduction in the number of bishops too. The task for new priests coming on-stream and those being sent to Ireland will be one of 21st century re-evangelisation: a hugely difficult task considering what they must compete against in this age of television and internet. That said, evangelisation has never been an easy task: we must look to the great historical figures and the saints for guidance.

    The most pressing task at the moment is to generously compensate all the abuse victims, offer them sincere apologies and beg for their forgiveness (which I think the current incumbents are attempting to do in the most sensitive manner possible). I have no problem dipping deep into my pockets and offering prayers to help comfort these victims. Unfortunately, some of them have passed away; some even have committed suicide: a tragic reality that also needs to be addressed. The faithful must also pray for the living victims and the dead victims and pray that this great cleansing of the Irish Church leads us to a purer Christian way of life.


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    #33
    philiporeilly
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭philiporeilly


    Outrage wrote: »
    The Cardinal is not resigning. Get used to it. Go find another anti-Catholic hobby horse.

    Typical! Just because people comment and criticise church leaders for reprehensible and disgusting actions/inaction they are anti-catholic?

    As far as I am concerned personal ambition and protectionism of clerics are not what christianity is about. Unfortunately the church hierarchy still seems to be that way though.

    Maybe you would prefer people to remain quiet on these issues? We've seen how that works out!


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    #34
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    If I may comment (as a non-Catholic):
    As far as I can see, Brady is one of the better clerics today, one who is trying to clean-up the RCC's act regards sexual abuse. But he did fail in the 70's, fail to give more concern for the then and future victims than he did for the Church's authority.

    The dilemma for the RCC now is if they punish those who failed back then, who among the higher clergy would survive? Does anyone think any bishop, archbishop, cardinal or pope did not encounter similar instances and themselves acted just as Brady did? That paedo-priests were/are a rare exception, to be encountered once or twice in a career? The evidence suggests they are/were in every diocese, and likely in every country. Every priest even would have had some suspicions about some of their colleagues. Every bishop would have had to deal with the details.

    Brady is not an exception to one failing his moral duty. The mind-set he was in made him follow orders.

    What each Catholic needs to consider is the fact that the Catholic Church is the problem - its institutional power gave depravity a safe breeding-ground. Only modern communications has revealed the institutional extent of the corruption and cover-up, otherwise it would have remained the 'sectarian propaganda' of the few who left the priesthood and orders, and the powerless victims.

    Humanly speaking, the only hope the RCC has is in offering up a few notable scapegoats and getting the lid back on as soon as possible. If the full truth emerges, its claim to be the true Church will be seen for the con it is.

    A must read to understand how these things came about. This book is shocking but deserves to be read.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Goodbye-Good-Men-Liberals-Corruption/dp/0895261448

    This is good too:
    http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020820_Keep_the_Faith_Change_the_Church.html


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    #35
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    Outrage wrote: »
    The most pressing task at the moment is to generously compensate all the abuse victims, offer them sincere apologies and beg for their forgiveness (which I think the current incumbents are attempting to do in the most sensitive manner possible). I have no problem dipping deep into my pockets and offering prayers to help comfort these victims. Unfortunately, some of them have passed away; some even have committed suicide: a tragic reality that also needs to be addressed. The faithful must also pray for the living victims and the dead victims and pray that this great cleansing of the Irish Church leads us to a purer Christian way of life.

    I am not sure that is what they need. I'd say they should be given the best psychotherapy available. Sadly their trust in God and the Church will be shattered. There is evidence that giving abuse victims large sums of money leads to their further ruination. Money doesn't solve their problem, it doesn't heal them.


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    #36
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    Ultravid wrote: »
    A must read to understand how these things came about. This book is shocking but deserves to be read.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Goodbye-Good-Men-Liberals-Corruption/dp/0895261448

    This is good too:
    http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020820_Keep_the_Faith_Change_the_Church.html

    A great book if I do say so myself.


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    #37
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    philiporeilly wrote: »
    As far as I am concerned personal ambition and protectionism of clerics are not what christianity is about. Unfortunately the church hierarchy still seems to be that way though.

    Can you please name one of the world's great institutions that doesn't have a hierarchy? Sure didn't Jesus himself appoint twelve apostles?


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    #38
    sarahlulu
    Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭sarahlulu


    Personally, I feel strongly that Brady should resign. I hope he at least had sleepless nights when the whole country was watching the news every evening in disgust when the animal Brendan Smith was being tried for his evil acts.


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    #39
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    sarahlulu wrote: »
    Personally, I feel strongly that Brady should resign. I hope he at least had sleepless nights when the whole country was watching the news every evening in disgust when the animal Brendan Smith was being tried for his evil acts.

    He's probably tucked up in his bed right now having had a few Trappist beers to celebrate a little lull in the Lenten monotomy on this, the day of our Patron Saint.


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    #40
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    I dont believe he should step down. He didnt abuse anybody, nor could he un-abuse the children involved. He did indeed make a mistake, and has admitted it and apologised. For anybody who thinks he should go, what would be the point? He'd be stepping down from being a cardinal back to being a bishop. What would be the point?


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    #41
    philiporeilly
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭philiporeilly


    Outrage wrote: »
    Can you please name one of the world's great institutions that doesn't have a hierarchy? Sure didn't Jesus himself appoint twelve apostles?

    The point is that this hierarchy professes what it deems morally right and wrong to millions yet will lie, deceive and cover-up for the sake of the institution.

    I'm sure Jesus didn't appoint 12 lawyers / spin-doctors to spread his gospel.


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    #42
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Tigger wrote: »
    serious question as i was arguing this with a mate and he says there is no way people support his position but i honestly believe that many people can see his side.

    I'm RC.
    I have a lot of sympathy with the cardinal.
    I'll qualify that.

    In 1975 RCC wielded a lot of power even more than today.
    brady interviewed the victims and sent his report to his Bishop.
    Morally/ethically, should Brady have gone to the police.
    Yes.
    However, having reported the crime to his Bishop, his Bishop failed to report the matter to the police.
    What is Brady supposed to do.
    If his own Bishop would not do the correct thing morally/ethically, what was brady to do?

    The Bishop should have reported the matter to the matter to the police.

    I can empathise with the Cardinal and the situation that he finds himself in.

    Should the cardinal pay the price in 2010, for what he and his Bishop did not do in 1975?
    He probably will have to resign.


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    #43
    philiporeilly
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭philiporeilly


    me_right_one wrote: »
    I dont believe he should step down. He didnt abuse anybody, nor could he un-abuse the children involved. He did indeed make a mistake, and has admitted it and apologised. For anybody who thinks he should go, what would be the point? He'd be stepping down from being a cardinal back to being a bishop. What would be the point?

    It could have saved many children over a twenty year period from being raped and abused if he had the courage to do the right thing.

    In a job where you say to serve god how can you continue when you are causing so many others pain by remaining to save pride.


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    #44
    sarahlulu
    Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭sarahlulu


    He said previously that he would step down if it transpired that he had caused harm to any child. Surely that is exactly what his lack of action did.


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    #45
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    philiporeilly wrote: »
    It could have saved many children over a twenty year period from being raped and abused if he had the courage to do the right thing.

    Could have. Would have. Should have.

    Who's to say that the child/parents even wanted the matter to be referred to the local Garda station and the town/village at large? Maybe they didn't want to have to travel to Dublin to testify publicly against a perverted paedophile. Think of the publicity that a perverted priest and his victim would attract in Holy Catholic Ireland. In all honesty, would you want a double whammy as an abuse victim? Remember, it's only recently that victims of child abuse have been facilitated by anonymity in the court room. Anyway, we don't have the full facts. It's all speculation as to what may or may not have happened 35 years ago.

    The Cardinal won't be resigning. His Bishop of the time is long dead. Even he is probably spending a short time in purgatory, in preparation for his ascension into heaven. That, I am confident of.


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    #46
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    sarahlulu wrote: »
    He said previously that he would step down if it transpired that he had caused harm to any child. Surely that is exactly what his lack of action did.

    The Cardinal won't be resigning. Get used to it.


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    #47
    sarahlulu
    Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭sarahlulu


    I wouldn't be so sure


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    #48
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    philiporeilly wrote: »
    It could have saved many children over a twenty year period from being raped and abused if he had the courage to do the right thing.

    So by resigning, what exactly would be achieved?
    philiporeilly wrote: »
    In a job where you say to serve god how can you continue when you are causing so many others pain by remaining to save pride.

    How is he causing any pain to anyone? What pride? The whole argument is like hunting down hitlers tea-boy and blaming him for the holucaust, then demanding he step down from whatever his present-day job is for some reason. Its ridiculous.

    He should have gone to the guards, but he didnt. He fcuked up, chickened out. People do that. People wasting their time saying he should go would be doing more good if they were lobbying their TD's to change the laws to punish sexual criminals more appropriately. Will we have another thread like this in 20 years saying philliporeilly should resign from whatever his job is cos he didnt go to his TD and ask for life sentences to be imposed on paedofiles, and some got out of jail after 2 or 3 years and abused more kids in the meantime? Thats the arguement you're making!


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    #49
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    sarahlulu wrote: »
    I wouldn't be so sure

    I'm looking forward to ROFL'ng at you in a year's time :lol:


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    #50
    allthedoyles
    Registered Users Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    For everyone's sake and for the Church's sake , he needs to step down .

    His speech today confirms that his position within the Church in untenable , - in my opinion


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    #51
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    As a RC, I feel very let down by the institution and the leaders of that institution both here and in the Vatican.

    Not only have the let down the victims and continue to crucify them with this covering up, the leaders of the RCC have sold out a lot of good/honest/decent clergy who have to suffer the
    opprobrium of wider society.


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    #52
    philiporeilly
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭philiporeilly


    Outrage wrote: »
    Could have. Would have. Should have.

    Who's to say that the child/parents even wanted the matter to be referred to the local Garda station and the town/village at large? ........

    It was not up to him or anyone in the church to make the decision of guessing what the victims want.

    The first, correct and moral response is to protect the victim(s) and ensure this doesn't happen again by informing the correct authorities.

    It's a pity that these 'men of god' saw it only fit to protect the name of their institution by denying, scorning victims and covering up what happened.


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    #53
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    allthedoyles wrote: »
    For everyone's sake and for the Church's sake , he needs to step down .

    His speech today confirms that his position within the Church in untenable , - in my opinion

    He's staying put. He has an important mission to fulfill here in Ireland. He has to oversee the compensation of all abuse victims and the conversion of the Irish Church from a large appeal-to-the-masses organisation to a smaller, more agile, smarter, more authentic church.


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    #54
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    philiporeilly wrote: »
    The point is that this hierarchy professes what it deems morally right and wrong to millions yet will lie, deceive and cover-up for the sake of the institution.

    I'm sure Jesus didn't appoint 12 lawyers / spin-doctors to spread his gospel.

    He chose 12 ordinary sinful men, one of whom was an unrepentant back-stabber. The other denied him three times, but repented. He was the first Pope*.

    Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

    Mt. 23:1-3

    Even if our leaders don't live the faith themselves, as long as they are teaching the faith as passed on to us through the Magisterium, Catholics should listen to them.

    I'm not passing judgement on anyone here, merely stating that even if ordained Ministers of Christ are hypcrits, as long as they teach the Catholic faith, they are worthy of being listened to:

    He who hears you, hears me.
    Lk. 10:16

    *(Start another thread if you want to debate any of this. I won't be joining you!)


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    #55
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    Nobodys perfect. The first man in heaven was the thief hanging off the cross beside Jesus, Saint Peter completely denied even knowing who Jesus was 3 times when Jesus needed him most, and he got sainted! Brady was the gofer for his boss one day when he came to know some very private and sensitive information regarding an investigation his boss was conducting, and he (wrongfully) chose to keep out of it! All failings, but let he who has no sin cast the first stone...................


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    #56
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    philiporeilly wrote: »
    It was not up to him or anyone in the church to make the decision of guessing what the victims want.

    The first, correct and moral response is to protect the victim(s) and ensure this doesn't happen again by informing the correct authorities.

    It's a pity that these 'men of god' saw it only fit to protect the name of their institution by denying, scorning victims and covering up what happened.

    Direct question: If you were abused by a priest in 1960s small-town Ireland, would you want the whole town to know about it?

    Another direct question: who was the Bishop and who was the Primate of All Ireland when Fr Brady had these elusive meetings?


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    #57
    sarahlulu
    Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭sarahlulu


    I would want it to be my decision.


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    #58
    bob50
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭bob50


    I think he should stay as cardinal what happened was 35 years ago

    dont forget he didnt abuse any kids the way man is being treated is a disgrace

    Im not a lover of the church but i can see that Sean Ryan as cardinal is a good man & has hard job to do


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    #59
    philiporeilly
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭philiporeilly


    Ultravid wrote: »
    I'm not passing judgement on anyone here, merely stating that even if ordained Ministers of Christ are hypcrits, as long as they teach the Catholic faith, they are worthy of being listened to:

    Where is the line drawn?

    Should priests that abuse/rape children be listened to as long as they teach the faith? Are they worthy of being listened to?


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    #60
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    bob50 wrote: »
    I think he should stay as cardinal what happened was 35 years ago

    dont forget he didnt abuse any kids the way man is being treated is a disgrace

    Im not a lover of the church but i can see that Sean Ryan as cardinal is a good man & has hard job to do

    Sean Brady.:)


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    #61
    Outrage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    sarahlulu wrote: »
    I would want it to be my decision.

    That's all very fine from your ooh so liberal 2010 perspective. But you're a passive observer. Someone who has access to nothing but third-hand information from 35 years ago that you've picked up in the media (who are in the business of selling advertising). You're not an abuse victim. Nor are you charged with having to compensate an abuse victim or stand in front of them and offer them a sincere apology from the depth of your heart in the most sensitive manner possible. It's all too easy for you to sit back and spout anonymous opinion from the comfort of your keyboard. Cardinal Brady is on the coal face dealing with the reality of child abuse. As is Archbishop Martin and countless others, both lay and religious.


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