Views on my son's 5k time

Myles Splitz · 26-06-2015 12:21pm

demfad wrote: »

I would respectfully disagree with that assertion. It is precisely because children are no longer running about for 5-8 hours a day that the clubs must take up some of this slack to keep an optimum ratio for development.

Surely that is a debate for schools and parents doing more rather than clubs facilitating informal activity around normal training sessions?

Volunteer based coaches keeping the attention of 10 + kids for more than 1hr 2-3 times a week for formal training of important developmental skills is already a stretch. Anything more and you are getting into the point where coaches become nothing more than nannies.

Again fine in theory but to the best of my knowledge I don't know any club in this country which could provide the manpower to make this feasible.

And I think the large number of glute and hip injuries in adult distance runners and unsuccessful FAI recoveries (in comparison to more lateral movement sports such as hurling) in this country shows that we are already underdeveloped to a certain point in co-ordination and proprioceptive skills that can have a huge impact on elite development in the early 20s from an injury risk standpoint in consistent training.

Notwork Error · 26-06-2015 12:43pm

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Surely that is a debate for schools and parents doing more rather than clubs facilitating informal activity around normal training sessions?

Volunteer based coaches keeping the attention of 10 + kids for more than 1hr 2-3 times a week for formal training of important developmental skills is already a stretch. Anything more and you are getting into the point where coaches become nothing more than nannies.

Again fine in theory but to the best of my knowledge I don't know any club in this country which could provide the manpower to make this feasible.

And I think the large number of glute and hip injuries in adult distance runners and unsuccessful FAI recoveries (in comparison to more lateral movement sports such as hurling) in this country shows that we are already underdeveloped to a certain point in co-ordination and proprioceptive skills that can have a huge impact on elite development in the early 20s from an injury risk standpoint in consistent training.

I think what demfad is saying that because kids aren't getting the activity from normal living that clubs should focus more on activity levels than form and such. By doing so, Actually making them healthy in general body and mind and development. If they don't have the activity level in the first place, all the form work in the world won't make much of a difference.

That's my take on what he said anyway.

kit3 · 26-06-2015 12:59pm

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Surely that is a debate for schools and parents doing more rather than clubs facilitating informal activity around normal training sessions?

Volunteer based coaches keeping the attention of 10 + kids for more than 1hr 2-3 times a week for formal training of important developmental skills is already a stretch. Anything more and you are getting into the point where coaches become nothing more than nannies.

Again fine in theory but to the best of my knowledge I don't know any club in this country which could provide the manpower to make this feasible.

And I think the large number of glute and hip injuries in adult distance runners and unsuccessful FAI recoveries (in comparison to more lateral movement sports such as hurling) in this country shows that we are already underdeveloped to a certain point in co-ordination and proprioceptive skills that can have a huge impact on elite development in the early 20s from an injury risk standpoint in consistent training.

+1 In my opinion, it is very much a matter for parents and schools to tackle rather than any one individual club. Schools can do a lot in this regard but it's down to having individual teachers who are willing to put in the time & effort, generally outside of school hours. While each school has a physical activity curriculum to follow, having teachers who 'go the extra mile' as it were can make a huge difference. I consider myself fortunate in that the school that my kids attend have a healthy eating policy (means no arguments about what's in the lunchbox because the goodies are not allowed) and there are two particular teachers who put in a huge amount of time with the kids. The sports covered are gaelic football, camogie, hurling & athletics.

It is also very much down to parents to ensure that their kids are active and having them involved in a number of activities increases the likelihood of this between individual training sessions and matches etc. The parents being active themselves also helps.

An interesting observation regarding the school healthy eating policy (& off-topic I know:o) - my son started secondary school last year and there are two main feeder schools in the village - one with a healthy eating policy and one that doesn't have. He said that the majority of kids that are overweight in the class have come from the school without the healthy eating policy - might well be coincidence but .....

demfad · 26-06-2015 2:21pm

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Surely that is a debate for schools and parents doing more rather than clubs facilitating informal activity around normal training sessions?

Volunteer based coaches keeping the attention of 10 + kids for more than 1hr 2-3 times a week for formal training of important developmental skills is already a stretch. Anything more and you are getting into the point where coaches become nothing more than nannies.

Again fine in theory but to the best of my knowledge I don't know any club in this country which could provide the manpower to make this feasible.

And I think the large number of glute and hip injuries in adult distance runners and unsuccessful FAI recoveries (in comparison to more lateral movement sports such as hurling) in this country shows that we are already underdeveloped to a certain point in co-ordination and proprioceptive skills that can have a huge impact on elite development in the early 20s from an injury risk standpoint in consistent training.

The goal of running training is to help young runners to realise their potential as runners in a healthy manner.
That being true, IMO the club would need to know:

-The most important attributes needed to achieve this goal,
-The strenghts and weaknesses of the groups it typically trains vis a vis these attributes and
-The training to best address these weaknesses and enhance the strenght's of the typical group.

That's all straight forward I think.

In the second decade of 21st century Ireland, the typical group will have different strenght's and weaknesses to the typical Irish group back in the day. More weaknesses I would imagine. Their general aerobic and physical conditioning will be weaker. Weak also will be their co-ordination and proprioceptive skills as you have pointed out (I agree but I would argue the former as the far more serious and significant weakness for potential runners.)

As I've said, weaknesses need to be identified and addressed to achieve the runners potential. Historical reasons (emerging sedentary lifestyle) why aerobic conditioning etc. is the glaring weakness now in Irish youngsters are surely not reasons to ignore it. That wont make the weakness dissappear.

Adapting training (if possible) to address this weakness is necessary if potential is to be realised. And it can be adapted.

E.g

The Gerry Farnan devised Phoenix park Cats and Mice game (that Coghlan played as a youngster) got a lot of aerobic work, sprinting, some anaerobic work, speed endurance and more in. As it was a chasing game and off-road you got the co-ordination/agility work thrown in for free. Again the kids individually can thrive within this unstructure. One session that is truly one size fits all.

(One coach can supervise a lot of kids there too).

Myles Splitz · 26-06-2015 2:45pm

demfad wrote: »

The goal of running training is to help young runners to realise their potential as runners in a healthy manner.

That being true, IMO the club would need to know:

-The most important attributes needed to achieve this goal,
-The strenghts and weaknesses of the groups it typically trains vis a vis these attributes and
-The training to best address these weaknesses and enhance the strenght's of the typical group.

That's all straight forward I think.

In the second decade of 21st century Ireland, the typical group will have different strenght's and weaknesses to the typical Irish group back in the day. More weaknesses I would imagine.
Their general aerobic and physical conditioning will be weaker. Weak also will be their co-ordination and proprioceptive skills as you have pointed out (I agree but I would argue the former as the far more serious and significant weakness for potential runners.)
As I've said, weaknesses need to be identified and addressed to achieve the runners potential. Citing the historical reasons why aerobic conditioning etc. is the glaring weakness now in Irish youngsters are surely not valid reasons to ignore it. That doesnt make the weakness dissapear.

Adapting training to address the weakness is necessary if potential is to be realised.

E.g

The Gerry Farnan Phoenix park Cats and Mice game got a lot of aerobic work, sprinting, some anaerobic work, speed endurance and more. As it was a chasing game and off-road you got the co-ordination/agility work thrown in for free. Again the kids individually can thrive within this unstructure. One session that is not one size fits all.

(One coach can supervise a lot of kids there too).

I think that the issue here is that many templates in this country are based on athletics development rather than just distance running. Effectively the cost reward ratio in clubs with a high aerobic training approach would take up 75% of training time at least to get the desired effects to point where other elements will suffer, as well as predominantly fast twitch fiber youngsters well suited to high jump or sprints being alienated also as well as explosive power throwers.

I agree with your example of a good initiative and I think more should be included but I would like to see these on top of current training rather than replacing it. To this day I still think snatch the bacon is probably the greatest training session you can have an 8-10 year old do for similar reasons to what you have listed.

Perhaps a solution would be that clubs establish a fitness creche approach but again you are talking about a very small proportion of volunteer based coaches and while it may be possible for a coach to handle a large number of kids in events like this realistically a 1:10 ratio is about as much as you can have from a health and safety standpoint when dealing with youngsters.

dna_leri · 26-06-2015 5:21pm

rom wrote: »

There are a whole lot of adults that shouldn't be running long distance due to poor form if that is the case. Who dictates what poor running forum is. If you had a child version of Paula Radcliff with her bobbing head would you pull her off the route? The restrictions that society puts on children and women are outdated. 3000 was the longest track race that women could do and this changed in Sonia O'Sullivans time. The arguments there were seen to be invalid. Somehow racing a 5k is bad for a kid but doing a 2000m XC race is not. The most horrible race I ever did was the Munsters schools XC at 12. It took nearly 15 mins for me to get my breath back.

I used to play team sports also when I was younger. There is no one questioning that 90 mins of a soccer pitch is too long for young kid etc. I have never heard anyone ever saying "Look at that guy he can has loads of health issues as he ran too much and too hard as a kid".

I'm not sure what points you are trying to prove here but I don't get any of them. Are you saying that it was good that it took you nearly 15 mins to recover after XC at 12? I know I had a similar experience at that age and it almost put me off running until I found some limited talent at shorter distances by accident. That was nearly knocked out of me also at one point when a new coach put me out jogging through mud. No wonder I still don't enjoy XC.

Actually most kids do not play 90 mins of a soccer match until they reach U17 and at younger ages they play on smaller pitches. I also know one talented kid who was run into the ground from too many miles too early. We do not have enough talent to allow a high % to drop out through over training (or under achieving) as happens in some countries.

All children should be exposed to a variety of sports so they can specialize in their late teens if talented enough or if less talented they can maintain a healthy fitness level throughout their lives in a sport they enjoy.

thesimpsons · 27-06-2015 11:25pm

I've read most of the thread but have to admit I only skimmed some of it. I've a 15yr old girl who runs 5km 2/3 times a week for run and work off stress of life, does a 10k few times a year and has done a few half marathons (which I've tried to discourage cos do think they too long and might lead to problems in later life). she joined a club about 2 yrs ago and just got bored to tears with the short distances. she can pace herself very easily and would have a spurt for the end of the race. Virtually none of her friends do sport anymore as they got fed up with the very competitive element of the hockey, camogie, running, soccer clubs. if you weren't an A player, you didn't get game time. With running she sets her own pace, her own times and its kept her in sport. She actually trained and paced an adult cousin for a 10k earlier this year to get from over 1hr 10mins down to 57 mins. Clubs aren't for everyone. I'd prefer to see her in sport of whatever kind she enjoys than doing nothing. IF there are problems wit form later, then they can be tackled then.

Tigerandahalf · 28-06-2015 11:41am

@thesimpsons

No harm in not joining a club. Some people feel pushed in a club or under pressure to compete against others. Any 15 year old girl getting regular exercise is doing well.

As regards times I see an 11-14 year old lad ran the Westport parkrun in 18.15 or something on Saturday.

Sunny Dayz · 30-07-2015 12:39pm

Hi OP, I only came across this thread now. My son is 10 (nearly 11) and does 5km in about 26/27 mins. He's not really into sport, he prefers cars, rallying and Formula 1, sO I'm happy he is getting asome form of exercise that he enjoys. My local GAA club started a fitness club last summer for the kids and he did that and when it finished up for the summer, he continued on with me doing the adult runs over the winter. Meeting twice a week doing 4-5 km each time. Warm up stretches and cools downs also. He really enjoys doing this, there have been evenings I wouldn't want to go out running only for himself! When the kids fitness started back this summer he said he wanted to stay doing the adults running and prefers doing runs out on the road rather than laps around the pitch or the kids games.
I have tried to get him into the athletics club in the nearest town but they have said they are full up and there is a waiting list. He actually did a 10k the May bank holiday, completed it in 1 hr 13 mins.

Your son did a pretty good time but I would leave it up to him to do what he enjoys. I made my son go to football training when he was younger and he didn't enjoy it, and it was a hassle to get him to go. Now he looks forward to his runs and can't wait to get out the door and enjoys participating in any local fun runs.

Views on my son's 5k time

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