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Dispatches, C4 last night

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2

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    #32
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    I dunno, I'm not a doctor. I'm also not very likely to have an abortion, being a man and all, so it's not something I've had to rationalise personally. But trained specialists, and people with a lot more knowledge than you and me have set standards for when abortion is acceptable. .. what is it, no third trimester? *shrug*.

    they know alot more about this than anyody on this thread, and I'm willing to accept their decision.


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    #33
    Mind Hunter 85
    Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭Mind Hunter 85


    sorry Unshelved i understand what your saying is true ,i also would think that post 24 week abortions are mainly for medicial reasons and the numbers are small compared to before 12 weeks .
    i was just trying to point out that there are many abortions after 12weeks as well .but i was going off point so nevermind


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    #34
    dior1catboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭dior1catboy


    Personally, I think the foetus becomes an actual person when it is born, I am in no way saying that the foetus isn't important, but it is not an actual human until it is born, hence the reason its called a foetus and not a baby, people have differing opinions on abortion and this is, of course, ok, as everyone has a right to an opinion, but if you haven't had to make this decision yourself, its impossible to put yourself in that persons shoes, this is something that should be remembered by everyone whether your pro life or pro choice!


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    #35
    MooseJam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭MooseJam


    dior1catboy wrote: »
    Personally, I think the foetus becomes an actual person when it is born, I am in no way saying that the foetus isn't important, but it is not an actual human until it is born, hence the reason its called a foetus and not a baby, people have differing opinions on abortion and this is, of course, ok, as everyone has a right to an opinion, but if you haven't had to make this decision yourself, its impossible to put yourself in that persons shoes, this is something that should be remembered by everyone whether your pro life or pro choice!

    there is no difference between a baby when it's inside or outside the mothers body, there is no majical OOW it's suddenly become a person moment


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    #36
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Mordeth wrote: »
    I dunno, I'm not a doctor. I'm also not very likely to have an abortion, being a man and all, so it's not something I've had to rationalise personally. But trained specialists, and people with a lot more knowledge than you and me have set standards for when abortion is acceptable. .. what is it, no third trimester? *shrug*.

    they know alot more about this than anyody on this thread, and I'm willing to accept their decision.

    The limit in the UK is 23 weeks 6 days and only after that due to sever danger to the woman's health or deformity of the fetus.

    The program was about just that Mord.

    The debate between medical professionals on the advances in neonatal care and the 3d scans and impact on the law about abortion in the UK which was introduced 40 years ago this week.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7042291.stm

    The program was made as there is talk about changing that law so that the limit becomes 19 weeks 6 days and that up until 13 weeks 6days a woman only has to get the referal of 1 dr instead of two.
    The makers of the program were clearly in favour of the change of the limit.


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    #37
    dior1catboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭dior1catboy


    MooseJam wrote: »
    there is no difference between a baby when it's inside or outside the mothers body, there is no majical OOW it's suddenly become a person moment

    Really? Oh ok, so when an egg is fertilised, its a human immediately then, yeah?


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    #38
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    dior1catboy humanites would be a better place for that debate tbh, not that I think you will be able to change moosejam or ntlbells opinions/beliefs.


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    #39
    MooseJam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭MooseJam


    dior1catboy wrote: »
    Really? Oh ok, so when an egg is fertilised, its a human immediately then, yeah?

    now you have it


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    #40
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Cos it is a hell of a lot cheaper then paying for teen pregnancies via welfare.

    Instead of educating them in the first place.......

    so what happens single mother at 26? we still have to pay for her? or do we refuse to pay for her because she's old enough to know better? like at 25 she was clueless now she's 26 everything changes?

    Why put the burdon on society? put it on the teens parents? surely they have to take some responsibility in it?

    Free condoms/pill won't do much IMO.


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    #41
    Snake Plisken
    Registered Users Posts: 12,433 ✭✭✭✭Snake Plisken


    I was reading an article about this show at the weekend and it pointed out that they NHS are finding it harder and harder to find Nurses and Docs to do abortions over 20 weeks. Weather abortion is right or wrong, I really think the show's only job was to show what the fetus experience during the abortion when its over 20 weeks old. And I think that acheived what it set out to do.


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    #42
    dior1catboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭dior1catboy


    Sorry, don't mean to annoy anyone, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, not trying to change anyones mind, this is a very personal subject to me, sorry if I sounded like I was arguing


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    #43
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    you really think a free way to stop getting pregnant, won't stop people getting pregnant?

    really?

    really?


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    #44
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    I see kids 16/17/18 driving high powered cars, wearing designer clothes.

    and your telling me a price tag of what ? .25c a day roughly puts them off using contreception??

    that;s just moronic


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    #45
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Mordeth wrote: »
    you really think a free way to stop getting pregnant, won't stop people getting pregnant?

    really?

    really?

    if it costs .25c a day or so to not get pregant and they have .25c a day and they dont use that way i don't think a free way would stop the people who wouldn't use it in the first place no.


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    #46
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    ntlbell wrote: »
    Instead of educating them in the first place.......
    No one said it should be instead of education and even the educated can have accidents.
    ntlbell wrote: »
    put it on the teens parents? surely they have to take some responsibility in it?
    You really think parents of a 25 year old are responsible for her getting pregnant?


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    #47
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    the list of medical proplerms and conditions that a child which undergoes such intensive treatment suffers was never mentioned.
    Maybe I picked it up wrong but I'm sure they spoke at length of the possible complications leading to long term problems for severely premature babies.

    Anyhoo, the programme was difficult to watch in parts, no doubt about that. No matter how dispassionate one tries to be, when one is confronted with little bits of a foetus in a bowl it makes one uneasy.

    I think it is reasonable for the United Kingdom to question their allowable timeframe if science has proven that a baby born at x weeks can survive (even with massive medical intervention) whilst it is still legal to abort a foetus at that same number of weeks. Is that a baby or a foetus?

    Despite the images shown, I feel it is still a fundamental right for women to have access to abortion in certain circumstances. The programme has sparked some debate, so that can't be a bad thing. If the vast majority of abortions are performed up to 12 weeks and just 24 abortions were performed at 24 weeks then reducing the limit to 20 weeks or so shouldn't affect many people and still allow access to abortion. I can't but believe that a woman wouldn't know she might be pregnant after 20 weeks. I am sure some women agonise right to the last before opting to abort. Reducing the limit to say 20 weeks would hurry their decision making process but one presumes most decisions would be the same.

    A tough subject and as always it attracts the fringes. Comments such as "it's murder" are allowable but add little to the debate in the UK as abortion is already legal! The debate is the timeframe.


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    #48
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Ciaran500 wrote: »
    No one said it should be instead of education and even the educated can have accidents.


    You really think parents of a 25 year old are responsible for her getting pregnant?


    No of course not, and I don't think I should be responsible to pay for a fecking 25yr olds contreception or her child!

    see TEEN and 25? see?


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    #49
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Mordeth wrote: »
    yes.. because it's going to pay for their children too...

    also how the hell do you murder a foetus? they're not people.

    yes, yes they are. killing a foetus is exactly the same as killing a six month old child. and until we agree on that point, there is no point continuing the debate on abortion. i doubt that Thaedydal would post "/me shrugs" at the death of a baby but i see it as exactly the same thing and have lost a lot of respect for her after that comment


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    #50
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    ntlbell wrote: »
    I see kids 16/17/18 driving high powered cars, wearing designer clothes.

    and your telling me a price tag of what ? .25c a day roughly puts them off using contreception??

    that;s just moronic

    Every 16, 17, and 18 old in the country has a high powered car and designer clothes?


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    #51
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    stovelid wrote: »
    Every 16, 17, and 18 old in the country has a high powered car and designer clothes?

    did I say everyone?


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    #52
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    ntlbell wrote: »
    did I say everyone?

    You were implying it. No reason to bring up that point otherwise.


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    #53
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    dior1catboy wrote: »
    Really? Oh ok, so when an egg is fertilised, its a human immediately then, yeah?

    so when does it become a person then? when its arms form? when its head forms? when it kicks? when its born? when it learns to talk? when it takes its first steps? when it graduates from college?

    at what point does it stop being ok to kill your baby?


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    #54
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    ntlbell wrote: »
    did I say everyone?
    so you'd be ok with free contraception for kids who don't drive fast cars and/or wear designer clothes?


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    #55
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Ciaran500 wrote: »
    You were implying it. No reason to bring up that point otherwise.

    You can nit pick, me too.

    next.


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    #56
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Commander Vimes wrote: »
    so when does it become a person then? when its arms form? when its head forms? when it kicks? when its born? when it learns to talk? when it takes its first steps? when it graduates from college?

    at what point does it stop being ok to kill your baby?

    You didn't answer the question put to you. Do you believe it's a baby as soon as the egg is fertilised, or before even?


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    #57
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    ntlbell wrote: »
    did I say everyone?

    *sigh*

    You used the example to explain why kids in that age group could afford regular contraception.

    If you now mean to say: actually, not many kids have all that money to burn, then your example wasn't very clever was it?

    Also, the kids that are most likely to have teenage pregnancies are usually from the poorest backgrounds.


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    #58
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    murphaph wrote: »
    so you'd be ok with free contraception for kids who don't drive fast cars and/or wear designer clothes?


    no, for 16/17/18 I'm happy to put the responsibility of contraception on to their parents and should they not fill out that responsibility be responsible for the financial side of their new grand children.

    So in both all cases I don't pay for contraception for someone else to have sex and I don't pay for any mistakes made.


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    #59
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    Yeah, I can see load of 16-18 year olds asking their parents for money for a pack of condoms :rolleyes:


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    #60
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Ciaran500 wrote: »
    Yeah, I can see load of 16-18 year olds asking their parents for money for a pack of condoms :rolleyes:

    Well if their not old enough to discuss it with their parents.

    maybe they're not at the age were they should be having sexual intercourse then?

    They can be put in a box in the bathroom or whatever, beside the hankies not having a **** tonight? grab a johnny!

    easy..

    it's 07 now....


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    #61
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    murphaph wrote: »
    Do you believe it's a baby as soon as the egg is fertilised,
    yes
    murphaph wrote: »
    or before even?

    no


This discussion has been closed.
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