Could Ireland cope with another wave of immigration?

fontanalis · 09-07-2010 5:10pm

mike65 wrote: »

1984 was a political allegory about Soviet Russia (and any other totalitarian state you might like to throw in) not immigration

But think about it man! you weren't there man!

Actually I'd love to know how 1984 is happening before our eyes, and specifically what parts of 1984.

Pauleta · 09-07-2010 5:10pm

It wouldnt make a difference in terms of EU immigration. There are no jobs and (correct me if im wrong) you have to be working here 2 years to claim the dole. It actually may boost the economy through short term rents and general living costs. They wont be here long because there is no work.

Although according to some people that listen to the Adrian Kennedy phone show the country will be broke because of the free BMWs and houses they get

fontanalis · 09-07-2010 5:12pm

DACSTER wrote: »

It was also about super-countries controlling their population with no democracy in the name of socialism.

EU - going to be like Oceania if you ask me. We already have Eurasia.

Wasn't Orwell a socialist? I think he was against the idea of totalitarianism more than anything.
The best thing to happen Ireland would be to be controlled by a competent country.

Denerick · 09-07-2010 5:18pm

fontanalis wrote: »

Wasn't Orwell a socialist? I think he was against the idea of totalitarianism more than anything.
The best thing to happen Ireland would be to be controlled by a competent country.

Orwell was a socialist. Animal Farm was aimed at his comrades, not the broader public.

lardossan · 09-07-2010 5:22pm

[QUOTE=paky;66732971 the imprint they have left on Ireland[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, what do you mean by that? Do you mean our attempts at showing you that there's more to food than takeaways and canned beans? Or that drinking in front of children only encourages them later life to pick up drinking? Or that getting drunk and vomiting all over the city centre is not what normal adults do all over Europe?

Or are you talking about all the taxes we pay, the rents we pay to your landlords? I'm just curious you know.

Pittens · 09-07-2010 5:25pm

I'm sorry, what do you mean by that? Do you mean our attempts at showing you that there's more to food than takeaways and canned beans? Or that drinking in front of children only encourages them later life to pick up drinking? Or that getting drunk and vomiting all over the city centre is not what normal adults do all over Europe?

how do describe normal. Are you describing the Irish as ab-normal? Do you think the Irish are genetially inferior to wherever you come from?

Pittens · 09-07-2010 5:36pm

fontanalis wrote: »

Wasn't Orwell a socialist? I think he was against the idea of totalitarianism more than anything.
The best thing to happen Ireland would be to be controlled by a competent country.

So you are saying we should be re-colonised? What about Africa?

fontanalis · 09-07-2010 5:45pm

Pittens wrote: »

So you are saying we should be re-colonised? What about Africa?

No, someone mentioned a while back about some nefarious plot to take control of the country by super countries or something like that. I was implying that maybe more oversight from the EU might actually be beneficial and it's not some 1984esque plot to enslave everyone.

Pittens · 09-07-2010 5:45pm

Anyway my guess is that the situation on mass immigration will come to a head after the recession in most european countries. Firstly most countries are in recession, secondly Germany and France - both total hypocrites when it comes to the European ideal - have to open up their borders. Just now. Millions of Poles could come to Ireland and the UK in seven years, but none to Germany. Couldn't cross the border. Couldnt work ten miles away in Eastern Germany but could here. That was to protect their labour market. Nothing has changed in the last 7 years to make German or French workers more competitive, and the recession may double dip.

The question is this: is the opening up of Eastern Europe good for workers in the west. While immigrants - most hard working to be fair - poured into the UK there was very little effect on the number of UK jobless. Benefit claimants in the UK stayed static. Long term benefit holders in the UK stayed long term - mostly it was disability ( but that hides long term unemployment).

So what will happen after the recession? Is there a chance that outsourcing and open labour markets will mean that the employers will - in rough financial circumstances once the recession ends - employ immigrants and increase outsourcing rather than employ locals. Recession always ends with jobless growth, but jobless growth after a few years and well into the recovery will not be accepted.

I think that may happen. Europe wide. And then Eastern Europeans will have to get visas again ( like Romania)

Overheal · 09-07-2010 6:23pm

paky wrote: »

Considering the massive amount of immigrants that have come to Ireland in past 5 years and the imprint they have left on Ireland, will Ireland cope with another wave if things ever pick up? By coping, I mean will our identity survive in the European Union since we make up 4 million or so and considering the Polish make up 40 million or so, will we be eventually consumed by the larger nations?

Look West.

Irish Americans (Irish: Gael-Mheiriceánaigh) are citizens of the United States who trace their ancestry to Ireland. An estimated total of 36,278,332 Americans — over 12% of the total population and 20% of the white population - reported Irish ancestry in the 2008 American Community Survey.[2]

40 million here, 40 million there...

The short answer being Ireland's racial and cultural identity is not in jeopardy.

Pittens · 09-07-2010 7:49pm

. An estimated total of 36,278,332 Americans — over 12% of the total population and 20% of the white population - reported Irish ancestry in the 2008 American Community Survey.[2]

90% of that group could not find the country on a map.

hamlet1 · 09-07-2010 7:55pm

PirateShampoo wrote: »

With the 2nd highest rate of unemployment behind Spain, why would imergrants chose Ireland?

because we are stupid enough to give them social welfare payments,medical cards etc.i would be better off going abroad and coming back pretending im immigrating.

fontanalis · 09-07-2010 8:14pm

hamlet1 wrote: »

because we are stupid enough to give them social welfare payments,medical cards etc.i would be better off going abroad and coming back pretending im immigrating.

Apart from the fact they have to wait 2 years. Why not apply, you'll save the orice of a plane ticket?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 09-07-2010 8:42pm

Ireland got its first wave of non-whites after it stopped being acceptable to be racist in the western world. It will be interesting to see what effect that has on the future of race relations in this country.

What does concern me is that at the moment retail/fast food staff are overwhelmingly non-irish. Was in carrolls(irish souvinir shop) today saw 4 staff.

First one I asked if they were looking for staff, he was eastern european; said to ask the manager. On the way I saw a pair of sunglasses going cheap so i went to the cashier. Was South-East Asian, there was an Irish looking staff member at the other cash register. Finally found the manager - he was South Asian.

The centras/spars in my area are 90% non irish staffed - and I've heard their accents they are not from here. I believe for jobs requiring no training employers favour non-Irish.

Now I'm just a student looking for Summer work. I blame the system and I hold nothing against the foreigners who have these jobs. However there's hundreds of thousands of Irish people with families in dire straits who will be jealous of the foreigners being favoured by employers and actually blame them personally.

If the government doesn't do something to make employers treat Irish people the same as foreigners I fear we will head down the same racist path as the UK. Ironically the opponents of any kind of legislation supporting Irish workers will probably pull the racism card

fontanalis · 09-07-2010 8:51pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Ireland got its first wave of non-whites after it stopped being acceptable to be racist in the western world. It will be interesting to see what effect that has on the future of race relations in this country.

What does concern me is that at the moment retail/fast food staff are overwhelmingly non-irish. Was in carrolls(irish souvinir shop) today saw 4 staff.

First one I asked if they were looking for staff, he was eastern european; said to ask the manager. On the way I saw a pair of sunglasses going cheap so i went to the cashier. Was South-East Asian, there was an Irish looking staff member at the other cash register. Finally found the manager - he was South Asian.

The centras/spars in my area are 90% non irish staffed - and I've heard their accents they are not from here. I believe for jobs requiring no training employers favour non-Irish.

Now I'm just a student looking for Summer work. I blame the system and I hold nothing against the foreigners who have these jobs. However there's hundreds of thousands of Irish people with families in dire straits who will be jealous of the foreigners being favoured by employers and actually blame them personally.

If the government doesn't do something to make employers treat Irish people the same as foreigners I fear we will head down the same racist path as the UK. Ironically the opponents of any kind of legislation supporting Irish workers will probably pull the racism card

Why would foreigners be favoured?

Denerick · 09-07-2010 9:01pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Ireland got its first wave of non-whites after it stopped being acceptable to be racist in the western world. It will be interesting to see what effect that has on the future of race relations in this country.

What does concern me is that at the moment retail/fast food staff are overwhelmingly non-irish. Was in carrolls(irish souvinir shop) today saw 4 staff.

First one I asked if they were looking for staff, he was eastern european; said to ask the manager. On the way I saw a pair of sunglasses going cheap so i went to the cashier. Was South-East Asian, there was an Irish looking staff member at the other cash register. Finally found the manager - he was South Asian.

The centras/spars in my area are 90% non irish staffed - and I've heard their accents they are not from here. I believe for jobs requiring no training employers favour non-Irish.

Now I'm just a student looking for Summer work. I blame the system and I hold nothing against the foreigners who have these jobs. However there's hundreds of thousands of Irish people with families in dire straits who will be jealous of the foreigners being favoured by employers and actually blame them personally.

If the government doesn't do something to make employers treat Irish people the same as foreigners I fear we will head down the same racist path as the UK. Ironically the opponents of any kind of legislation supporting Irish workers will probably pull the racism card

The 'foreigners' are not to blame with you not been able to find work. The problem is that you are seeking student summer work - while employers want people who they can rely on. They can't rely on students as they are definately going to leave around exam time or when they finish their degree. When times are good employers will take on students (I never had problems finding part time work in shops and restaurants) When times are bad they'll concentrate on people willing to stay longer. This means they will predominatly stick with their current long time staff, who are foreign. The reason they are foreign is because Irish people simply didn't apply for these jobs. You choose to overlook that.

Furthermore, our 'working classes' do not want to work minimum wage jobs because they can earn more, or as much, on welfare. This is part of our ridiculous social welfare system that effectively punishes work. This is the main reason why you hear Pakistani, and not Dublin accents in your local centra.

When I worked in a shop in Dublin city centre there was around 20 people on the payroll. There were 2 Irish people, one of them being me. The boss always had a sign on the shop window advertising for new staff. Not once did an Irish person come up to me with a CV at any time that I was working.

Grumpypants · 09-07-2010 9:33pm

Another wave of immigration is actually what we need. The economy was built on us building houses. If we had another wave of people that bought up those empty houses we could get construction off the ground again which would help the country no end. With more demand, prices would rise lots of people wouldnt be faced with such bad negative equity and everything would ease up. At the moment we have mass emigration so even more houses are being left empty prices are still falling and the country is going into more debt.

View · 10-07-2010 12:12am

Pittens wrote: »

Anyway my guess is that the situation on mass immigration will come to a head after the recession in most european countries. Firstly most countries are in recession, secondly Germany and France - both total hypocrites when it comes to the European ideal - have to open up their borders.

France has already opened its labour markets - on July 1 2008 to be precise. All other EU member states with the exception of Germany and Austria have opened their labour markets to the former "EU-10" NAS.

Germany's and Austria's exception is contained explicitly in the Accession Treaties of those states - it expires on May 1 next year. Any or all of the "EU-10" NAS could have rejected that Accession Treaty if they didn't like that condition - their choice was to accept it.

Pittens wrote: »

Millions of Poles could come to Ireland and the UK in seven years, but none to Germany.

Restricted access to a labour market does not mean a total ban from that labour market...

Pittens wrote: »

Recession always ends with jobless growth, but jobless growth after a few years and well into the recovery will not be accepted.

I think that may happen. Europe wide. And then Eastern Europeans will have to get visas again ( like Romania)

This can of course happen provided you can persuade the governments & parliaments of the East European states to allow you to discriminate against their citizens. Failing that, you can forget about visas.

Lastly, I should mention that in the case of Bulgaria and Romania, Ireland together with the UK are the only 2 EU states which apply full restrictions. The other states have either fully opened their labour markets or allow partial access/apply partial restrictions for specific industry sectors.

View · 10-07-2010 12:33am

Pauleta wrote: »

There are no jobs and (correct me if im wrong) you have to be working here 2 years to claim the dole.

Almost 100% right, (almost all) EU citizens who live in Ireland for less than the two year mark, and who are unfortunate enough to lose their job will not qualify.

But there is always the exception...

Under the wonderful rules devised by our government, it is possible for a Non-EU citizen (e.g. a Swiss or Norwegian citizen) who lives in any of the Channel Islands - all of which are Non-EU "states" - for a period of 2 years to move to Ireland and qualify immediately for Social Welfare benefits without ever having set foot in Ireland prior to their arrival!

Bottle_of_Smoke · 10-07-2010 1:26pm

fontanalis wrote: »

Why would foreigners be favoured?

I think there's a perception that Irish people are lazy whereas foreigners will work harder. I think employers are worried the Irish would be more likely to leave if something better came along

Perhaps this is true to an extent, but imagine a workplace only hired men because some women end up going on maternity leave? You can't allow this kind of discrimination when hiring people

Denerick wrote:

The 'foreigners' are not to blame with you not been able to find work. The problem is that you are seeking student summer work - while employers want people who they can rely on. They can't rely on students as they are definately going to leave around exam time or when they finish their degree. When times are good employers will take on students (I never had problems finding part time work in shops and restaurants) When times are bad they'll concentrate on people willing to stay longer. This means they will predominatly stick with their current long time staff, who are foreign. The reason they are foreign is because Irish people simply didn't apply for these jobs. You choose to overlook that.

Did you read a word I said? I'm not blaming them at all. Also I don't know why you have foreigners written as 'foreigners'. I only mentioned that I was a student to point out as to why it doesn't bother me.

Furthermore, our 'working classes' do not want to work minimum wage jobs because they can earn more, or as much, on welfare. This is part of our ridiculous social welfare system that effectively punishes work. This is the main reason why you hear Pakistani, and not Dublin accents in your local centra.

There's plenty of eastern european accents too, people who'd be eligible for welfare. The welfare system is loony but it doesn't punish people to that great an extent. Most people would rather earn 360 a week on min wage than 190 in benefits. Well enough people anyway

When I worked in a shop in Dublin city centre there was around 20 people on the payroll. There were 2 Irish people, one of them being me. The boss always had a sign on the shop window advertising for new staff. Not once did an Irish person come up to me with a CV at any time that I was working.

Find that hard to believe. I worked in sports shops in Dublin 1 in the summers of 02/03 and a fashion store in Dublin 2 03 to 05. Got some CVs from foreigners but most of them came from young Irish people.

mikemac · 10-07-2010 1:39pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Now I'm just a student looking for Summer work. I blame the system and I hold nothing against the foreigners who have these jobs.

As said, the employer would prefer to have a team of full-time staff then a lot of part-timers who will leave next September or might only be available to work evening or weekends, it's makes the roster a nightmare to organize.

If the shop is busy and particularly for a tourist type shop like Carolls, they'd certainly take on summer staff.
But tourism numbers are down, it's expensive for American tourists now with the US dollar so they probably don't need as many staff this summer.

I've worked in a small hotel in Galway, 18 staff and only 4 of us of us were Irish.
We certainly got lots of CV's from Irish people too but apart from the chef's they were mostly students looking for part time work.
Since management wanted full timers they went with other staff, even using agencies to recommend staff from Eastern Europe. So they had the job arranged before they arrived in Ireland.

It certainly wansn't that Irish people don't work as well, there are great workers and useless wasters in equal numbers from all countries. Tbh, it wasn't the Irish staff who were constantly missing work due to nights out and hangovers.
Just companies want full time staff and not students who will pick and choose shifts and changing rosters every week.
If times are good, they'll take them on

Edit, I've been in your situation though, it's tough.
I went to McDonalds on Headford Rd, Galway and asked about a job, this was 2005.
The manager said they were not hiring and I sure didn't spot many Irish staff there! Not the staff's fault, they got a job before I applied
Rejected by McDonalds, the shame

yosemite_sam · 10-07-2010 1:41pm

Why would they come

aDeener · 10-07-2010 2:05pm

Denerick wrote: »

The 'foreigners' are not to blame with you not been able to find work. The problem is that you are seeking student summer work - while employers want people who they can rely on. They can't rely on students as they are definately going to leave around exam time or when they finish their degree. When times are good employers will take on students (I never had problems finding part time work in shops and restaurants) When times are bad they'll concentrate on people willing to stay longer. This means they will predominatly stick with their current long time staff, who are foreign. The reason they are foreign is because Irish people simply didn't apply for these jobs. You choose to overlook that.

Furthermore, our 'working classes' do not want to work minimum wage jobs because they can earn more, or as much, on welfare. This is part of our ridiculous social welfare system that effectively punishes work. This is the main reason why you hear Pakistani, and not Dublin accents in your local centra.

When I worked in a shop in Dublin city centre there was around 20 people on the payroll. There were 2 Irish people, one of them being me. The boss always had a sign on the shop window advertising for new staff. Not once did an Irish person come up to me with a CV at any time that I was working.

what is a student to do for money so? they are punished as they are getting themselves educated

Overheal · 10-07-2010 4:46pm

Pittens wrote: »

90% of that group could not find the country on a map.

well then by all means have a bitch and a moan and discriminate against the poles and your irish american brothers, not to mention irish that live in just about any other corner of the world.

yes, ireland and the irish will be in trouble if such bigoted attitudes are left to fester.

Denerick · 10-07-2010 5:00pm

Overheal wrote: »

well then by all means have a bitch and a moan and discriminate against the poles and your irish american brothers, not to mention irish that live in just about any other corner of the world.

yes, ireland and the irish will be in trouble if such bigoted attitudes are left to fester.

Amen brother!

Bottle_of_Smoke · 10-07-2010 5:20pm

Just want to make it clear to people replying to my post that I mentioned I was a student solely to explain that it doesn't bother me much personally that foreigners have jobs I want, but I'd be worried people who need full time work would resent them personally.

I completely understand an employer not taking me on unless they only need someone for the summer.

danbohan · 10-07-2010 5:35pm

Overheal wrote: »

well then by all means have a bitch and a moan and discriminate against the poles and your irish american brothers, not to mention irish that live in just about any other corner of the world.

yes, ireland and the irish will be in trouble if such bigoted attitudes are left to fester.

the crazy thing is a lot this attitude is coming from our so called ''best educated generation'' !

peasant · 10-07-2010 5:37pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Just want to make it clear to people replying to my post that I mentioned I was a student solely to explain that it doesn't bother me much personally that foreigners have jobs I want, but I'd be worried people who need full time work would resent them personally.

So we have to wait until you graduate before we can call you a xenophobe?

:D

Overheal · 10-07-2010 8:40pm

Denerick wrote: »

Amen brother!

danbohan wrote: »

the crazy thing is a lot this attitude is coming from our so called ''best educated generation'' !

Well then perhaps it's arrogance. Yes on average an Irish Student gets a better education than a US student. Not that school teaches you much of anything about virtues, like modesty

Anyway, back OT, I'm simply stating that the supposed figure of 4 million Irish is wildly inaccurate; theres not exactly a chance of cultural extinction.

Pittens · 11-07-2010 10:27am

well then by all means have a bitch and a moan and discriminate against the poles and your irish american brothers, not to mention irish that live in just about any other corner of the world.

yes, ireland and the irish will be in trouble if such bigoted attitudes are left to fester.

Oh, for the love of God, my only post on the matter was a post on the economic reasons why mass immigration may not be politically acceptable in the long run. The only apparant bigorty is saying that Americans are not Irish. They aren't. YOu can no more maintain Irish culture in America with Americans, than you can maintain Italian culture with Italian Americans. If Italy was not Italy, Italian Americans would not replace that culture.

Could Ireland cope with another wave of immigration?

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