Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Zebra3 · 30-11-2014 10:51am

Going under Trinity would've been preferable.

AngryLips · 30-11-2014 1:14pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Going under Trinity would've been preferable.

You're right, they should have looked at putting Trinity on stilts

Middle Man · 03-12-2014 7:58pm

Those streets form part of a major pedestrian artery. General through traffic and cycling should be banned from College Green and Westmoreland Street as well as Lower Grafton Street and much of Dame Street.

LXFlyer · 03-12-2014 8:39pm

Middle Man wrote: »

Those streets form part of a major pedestrian artery. General through traffic and cycling should be banned from College Green and Westmoreland Street as well as Lower Grafton Street and much of Dame Street.

Right and exactly how would our public transport system function if that were the case?

Aard · 03-12-2014 9:40pm

Middle Man wrote: »

Those streets form part of a major pedestrian artery. General through traffic and cycling should be banned from College Green and Westmoreland Street as well as Lower Grafton Street and much of Dame Street.

I used to think this way until I did an audit of the area and concluded that the only other way for people to legally cycle east-west through the entire Grafton Street / Temple Bar area would be via the quays or Cuffe Street. About 1km. Not practical or reasonable imo.

Zebra3 · 03-12-2014 11:23pm

AngryLips wrote: »

You're right, they should have looked at putting Trinity on stilts

That's not what I said, but feel free to misquote me. :rolleyes:

cgcsb · 04-12-2014 12:47am

Middle Man wrote: »

Those streets form part of a major pedestrian artery. General through traffic and cycling should be banned from College Green and Westmoreland Street as well as Lower Grafton Street and much of Dame Street.

So cycling from Dublin 2 to Dublin 8 would become effectively impossible unless you fancy a cycle through the dual carriageways of the quays or cuffe st/kevin st which is like competing in the hunger games, only on a bike.

Middle Man · 04-12-2014 1:50am

cgcsb wrote: »

So cycling from Dublin 2 to Dublin 8 would become effectively impossible unless you fancy a cycle through the dual carriageways of the quays or cuffe st/kevin st which is like competing in the hunger games, only on a bike.

In the shopping/cultural districts, the pedestrian is king - simple as! If it is good enough to inconvenience many motorists for the sake of a few cyclists, then it's certainly good enough to inconvenience a few cyclists for the sake of the massive volume of pedestrians on streets such as O'Connell Street, Westmoreland Street, College Green etc. There's nothing stopping you from dismounting and walking your bike through major pedestrian areas. After all, just as cyclists are vulnerable to motorists, pedestrians are vulnerable to cyclists.

Middle Man · 04-12-2014 1:57am

lxflyer wrote: »

Right and exactly how would our public transport system function if that were the case?

I said general through traffic - not public transport! Of course, the Luas Cross City will be going through College Green - I have been screaming for this tram line for quite some time. Obviously, some bus services will also need to go through. However, the road would have to be reduced in width to allow for major footpath expansion.

AngryLips · 04-12-2014 11:28am

Middle Man wrote: »

In the shopping/cultural districts, the pedestrian is king - simple as! If it is good enough to inconvenience many motorists for the sake of a few cyclists, then it's certainly good enough to inconvenience a few cyclists for the sake of the massive volume of pedestrians on streets such as O'Connell Street, Westmoreland Street, College Green etc. There's nothing stopping you from dismounting and walking your bike through major pedestrian areas. After all, just as cyclists are vulnerable to motorists, pedestrians are vulnerable to cyclists.

You realise there are up to 11k journeys made on Dublin Bikes every day, right?

Middle Man · 04-12-2014 12:49pm

AngryLips wrote: »

You realise there are up to 11k journeys made on Dublin Bikes every day, right?

Would you care to mention how many significant pedestrian journeys are made in Dublin's City Centre? Also, cycling campaigns do not appear too concerned with the number of motorists on roads in general when it comes to narrowing traffic lanes and removing left lanes and slips for the convenience of cyclists. So as a pedestrian, I say to you, GANGWAY!

monument · 04-12-2014 1:37pm

Middle Man wrote: »

Would you care to mention how many significant pedestrian journeys are made in Dublin's City Centre? Also, cycling campaigns do not appear too concerned with the number of motorists on roads in general when it comes to narrowing traffic lanes and removing left lanes and slips for the convenience of cyclists. So as a pedestrian, I say to you, GANGWAY!

Part of the diffrence: http://www.humantransit.org/2012/09/the-photo-that-explains-almost-everything.html

Other parts of the diffrence is that cycling offers a transport option which covers distances way beyond what most people will walk, while still being sustainable, costing both the individual and the State a fraction of public transport or motoring, zero running emissions, hardly measurable running noise, and adding to engery security.

We're also not taking about a pedestrian area -- that's not what College Green is.

Middle Man · 04-12-2014 1:55pm

The pedestrian equivalent of the M50 is in my mind, the heavily walked route that joins the major shopping precincts of Henry Street and Grafton Street via O'Connell Bridge - College Green is part of that route.

cgcsb · 04-12-2014 2:32pm

Middle Man wrote: »

In the shopping/cultural districts, the pedestrian is king - simple as! If it is good enough to inconvenience many motorists for the sake of a few cyclists, then it's certainly good enough to inconvenience a few cyclists for the sake of the massive volume of pedestrians on streets such as O'Connell Street, Westmoreland Street, College Green etc. There's nothing stopping you from dismounting and walking your bike through major pedestrian areas. After all, just as cyclists are vulnerable to motorists, pedestrians are vulnerable to cyclists.

But there is no pressing need to inconvenience those cyclists. If all motor traffic is removed from College Green, there'll be plenty of space to accommodate cycling and a generous pedestrian plaza. Banning cyclists doesn't add any value.

keane2097 · 04-12-2014 2:50pm

cgcsb wrote: »

But there is no pressing need to inconvenience those cyclists. If all motor traffic is removed from College Green, there'll be plenty of space to accommodate cycling and a generous pedestrian plaza. Banning cyclists doesn't add any value.

I suppose it gives a certain type of person the opportunity to sneer.

monument · 04-12-2014 3:23pm

Middle Man wrote: »

The pedestrian equivalent of the M50 is in my mind, the heavily walked route that joins the major shopping precincts of Henry Street and Grafton Street via O'Connell Bridge - College Green is part of that route.

If to give greater priority to people walking is your main goal then you should be arguing for wider footpaths and a larger percentage of the traffic light cycle given over to the green man lights.

Arbitrarily calling for a ban on people cycling bicycles while keeping large, noisly, and polluting buses in place brings up questions of your motivates.

Middle Man · 04-12-2014 9:16pm

monument wrote: »

If to give greater priority to people walking is your main goal then you should be arguing for wider footpaths...<snip>

Well the following is what I said in post #310 in response to another post...

I said general through traffic - not public transport! Of course, the Luas Cross City will be going through College Green - I have been screaming for this tram line for quite some time. Obviously, some bus services will also need to go through. However, the road would have to be reduced in width to allow for major footpath expansion.

LXFlyer · 04-12-2014 9:33pm

monument wrote: »

If to give greater priority to people walking is your main goal then you should be arguing for wider footpaths and a larger percentage of the traffic light cycle given over to the green man lights.

Arbitrarily calling for a ban on people cycling bicycles while keeping large, noisly, and polluting buses in place brings up questions of your motivates.

I think a little less of the "noisy" and "polluting" comment about buses might be in order, monument.

The current fleet are all to the highest available environmental specifications - the days of Dublin buses being excessively noisy and polluting are long gone.

Aard · 04-12-2014 10:26pm

^I think he meant it more as a contrast with bicycles.

monument · 04-12-2014 11:39pm

Middle Man wrote: »

Well the following is what I said in post #310 in response to another post...

I said general through traffic - not public transport! Of course, the Luas Cross City will be going through College Green - I have been screaming for this tram line for quite some time. Obviously, some bus services will also need to go through. However, the road would have to be reduced in width to allow for major footpath expansion.

You can reduce the roadway, increase the footpath space, have a plaza taking up half of College Green and still fit a two-way cycle path and a tram/bus lane in each direction.

D.L.R. · 05-12-2014 2:22pm

I agree Foster Place should be opened up and the trees there removed. Also remove the trees around the Grattan statue. They're just messy looking. Far worse than the trees on O'Connell Street ever were.

And the Bank of Ireland/Old Parliament should be a museum or conference venue - wholly wasted as a bank.

Aard · 05-12-2014 3:02pm

Judging the way nearby former bank buildings have gone, the old parliament building could well end up as a shopping centre :pac:

Middle Man · 05-12-2014 3:17pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

I agree Foster Place should be opened up and the trees there removed. Also remove the trees around the Grattan statue. They're just messy looking. Far worse than the trees on O'Connell Street ever were.

And the Bank of Ireland/Old Parliament should be a museum or conference venue - wholly wasted as a bank.

Remove trees? Sure it's the trees and parks that people admire about Dublin. I once saw the parts of Brussels that had no trees - well, I say no thanks!!! I'm not a tree hugger, but I seriously appreciate the value of trees. I know people that would love towns to go back in time, but the first thing I notice about old urban photos is the lack of greenery - again, no thanks!

D.L.R. · 05-12-2014 4:20pm

Middle Man wrote: »

Remove trees? Sure it's the trees and parks that people admire about Dublin. I once saw the parts of Brussels that had no trees - well, I say no thanks!!! I'm not a tree hugger, but I seriously appreciate the value of trees. I know people that would love towns to go back in time, but the first thing I notice about old urban photos is the lack of greenery - again, no thanks!

People also admire Dublin's history and architecture. I agree trees and greenery is an essential part of a healthy city. But that doesn't mean any old haphazard tree planting is a positive.

The College Green trees were just lobbed in there and allowed to become overgrown and gnarled. Again, that's ok in some places, but here it looks shabby and doesn't enhance the area. The trees themselves aren't particularly attractive. That's my view.

Aard · 05-12-2014 5:05pm

Tree roots can undermine underground services and foundations so trees are monitored for potential damage they may cause. Trees don't last forever and the ones on CG will eventually have to be felled. Planting trees in urban areas these days is a lot more restrictive than say twenty years ago.

seamus · 05-12-2014 5:15pm

Aard wrote: »

Judging the way nearby former bank buildings have gone, the old parliament building could well end up as a shopping centre :pac:

I think it would be best served as an upmarket hotel. It always seemed to me to be somewhere that should be open for public access rather than an enormous private business building slap bang in (literally) the middle of the city.

Middle Man · 05-12-2014 6:02pm

seamus wrote: »

I think it would be best served as an upmarket hotel. It always seemed to me to be somewhere that should be open for public access rather than an enormous private business building slap bang in (literally) the middle of the city.

...or an iconic central library for Dublin City. Is the current library still in the ILAC? So Dun Laoghaire has the iconic modernist library and it would be great if the city had a classical equivalent - such would probably be comparable to the National Library on Kildare Street - that's an amazing building!

Zebra3 · 05-12-2014 9:56pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

the Bank of Ireland/Old Parliament should be a museum or conference venue - wholly wasted as a bank.

The state should have got possession of that property while it was throwing billions at the bank.

paddyland · 06-12-2014 12:25am

monument wrote: »

Arbitrarily calling for a ban on people cycling bicycles while keeping large, noisly, and polluting buses in place brings up questions of your motivates.

You know that buses are not noisy or polluting any more, in the way they were in say the 1980s, when you smelt the fumes and saw the smoke before you saw the actual bus. Modern legislation has reduced that to a most reasonable minimum. Maybe not enough for you, sitting behind one on a bicycle, but very reasonably so, all the same. Legislation gets tighter every year.

Are you sure you aren't having your own 'motivates' (sic) in portraying them as such?

monument · 06-12-2014 1:58am

paddyland wrote: »

You know that buses are not noisy or polluting any more, in the way they were in say the 1980s, when you smelt the fumes and saw the smoke before you saw the actual bus. Modern legislation has reduced that to a most reasonable minimum. Maybe not enough for you, sitting behind one on a bicycle, but very reasonably so, all the same. Legislation gets tighter every year.

Are you sure you aren't having your own 'motivates' (sic) in portraying them as such?

In this context I was highlighting the silliness of another poster wanting to ban bicycles but no buses. I was not suggesting to ban buses from College Green, just pointing out that issues with the other poster's suggestion.

Compressed natural gas buses are cleaner. So are hybrids of different mixes. Trams have zero tailpipe emissions. While things have improved, diesel is still a dirty fuel which causes major health issues for residents and works in cities. Dublin is no exception.

The stereotype of a cyclist getting all caught up from tailpipe emissions might be a prominent one, but research shows that people cycling have a lower exposure to harmful emission that drivers and passengers.

Re noise: I've lived beside a major road for a while -- older buses which were still being phased out were clearly the worst but the noise of modern buses was still notable among other traffic.

It must have been hell on earth living beside a major route before buses etc improved, but these are still issues which have major affects on people. Before stricker air quality emissions come into play, the EPA has already been warning that Dublin has breached or been near to breach the current air quality standards more than a few times in the past few year. They don't even test some of the most congested areas where focused emissions can have the worst affect.

Muahahaha · 13-01-2015 2:28am

Zebra3 wrote: »

The state should have got possession of that property while it was throwing billions at the bank.

it was a missed opportunity for sure. I think it was mooted at the time but as usual it was just politicians blabber

nowecant · 13-01-2015 4:54pm

I wonder what the effect of shutting off the left turn from Dawson Street to Nassau street for the next 6 months will have on this?

It would be great if they decided to permanently remove it. It would be the perfect opportunity.

http://www.thejournal.ie/changes-to-traffic-dublin-city-centre-1878881-Jan2015/

LXFlyer · 13-01-2015 5:14pm

nowecant wrote: »

I wonder what the effect of shutting off the left turn from Dawson Street to Nassau street for the next 6 months will have on this?

It would be great if they decided to permanently remove it. It would be the perfect opportunity.

http://www.thejournal.ie/changes-to-traffic-dublin-city-centre-1878881-Jan2015/

Thankfully for the thousands of bus passengers that will face longer journeys because of this, it is only temporary.

The buses will revert to their old routing once the works are complete.

Aard · 13-01-2015 5:26pm

Once people get used to a bus-free Church Lane, I'm not sure anybody will want to go back. It'll be interesting to see how people react to the change in Suffolk Street.

cgcsb · 13-01-2015 5:31pm

Suffolk street is a nightmare for pedestrians, some welcome relief.

seamus · 13-01-2015 5:53pm

Aard wrote: »

Once people get used to a bus-free Church Lane, I'm not sure anybody will want to go back. It'll be interesting to see how people react to the change in Suffolk Street.

Yeah, two places with heavy pedestrian traffic.

There's a great opportunity there where you pedestrianise the entire area from Trinity St to Grafton St, including St. Andrew's St, meaning you have unbroken pedestrian access all the way from George's St to St. Stephen's Green.

All of those streets around that area, South William Street in particular, are massively frustrating for pedestrian and motorists alike because there's far too much traffic and not enough space.

The should very seriously look at pedestrianising that whole area - from Trinity St all the way up to Stephen's Green shopping centre, and all of the streets in between. Create a proper centre of tourism in Dublin that doesn't have tourist trap pubs and restaurants on every corner, like Temple Bar.

nowecant · 13-01-2015 6:00pm

I think it is a serious possibility that it will happen and should definitely be looked at by the council. It would also improve College Green by removing a lot of traffic and making it easier in future to pedestrianize it

I know that in the past they have reported the upgrading of many of the streets in the area to make for a better pedestrian experience http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/civic-spaces-to-be-developed-in-areas-west-of-grafton-street-1.1944632

You can see some images here as well http://www.irishtimes.com/draft-plan-for-dublin-s-grafton-street-quarter-1.1573479

LXFlyer · 13-01-2015 6:20pm

It's possible that the buses will share Nassau Street and the lower part of Grafton Street with LUAS in both directions, rather than operating via Suffolk Street & Church Lane, but the plan most definitely is that they will not be using the new diversionary routes once the works are complete.

LXFlyer · 13-01-2015 6:22pm

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, two places with heavy pedestrian traffic.

There's a great opportunity there where you pedestrianise the entire area from Trinity St to Grafton St, including St. Andrew's St, meaning you have unbroken pedestrian access all the way from George's St to St. Stephen's Green.

All of those streets around that area, South William Street in particular, are massively frustrating for pedestrian and motorists alike because there's far too much traffic and not enough space.

The should very seriously look at pedestrianising that whole area - from Trinity St all the way up to Stephen's Green shopping centre, and all of the streets in between. Create a proper centre of tourism in Dublin that doesn't have tourist trap pubs and restaurants on every corner, like Temple Bar.

I suspect that unfortunately the two multi-storey car parks within that area have put pay to any such plan.

It's difficult to see how it could be achieved and retain access to them.

nowecant · 13-01-2015 7:00pm

Here is their maps of the diversions

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/news/lcc-closure-of-left-turn-from-dawson-st-to-nassau-st/

Muahahaha · 13-01-2015 9:40pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I suspect that unfortunately the two multi-storey car parks within that area have put pay to any such plan.

It's difficult to see how it could be achieved and retain access to them.

You're right, the opposition to it from Brown Thomas and others would be fierce. But it really needs to be looked at if they are to do the job right. We have a CPO system in place that is supposed to prioritise the common good so hopefully some common sense comes into it at some stage down the line.

cgcsb · 14-01-2015 1:03pm

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, two places with heavy pedestrian traffic.

There's a great opportunity there where you pedestrianise the entire area from Trinity St to Grafton St, including St. Andrew's St, meaning you have unbroken pedestrian access all the way from George's St to St. Stephen's Green.

All of those streets around that area, South William Street in particular, are massively frustrating for pedestrian and motorists alike because there's far too much traffic and not enough space.

The should very seriously look at pedestrianising that whole area - from Trinity St all the way up to Stephen's Green shopping centre, and all of the streets in between. Create a proper centre of tourism in Dublin that doesn't have tourist trap pubs and restaurants on every corner, like Temple Bar.

Your big obstacle there is the Drury and BT car parks. CPO them?

cgcsb · 14-01-2015 1:06pm

lxflyer wrote: »

It's possible that the buses will share Nassau Street and the lower part of Grafton Street with LUAS in both directions, rather than operating via Suffolk Street & Church Lane, but the plan most definitely is that they will not be using the new diversionary routes once the works are complete.

Is it feasible for almost every bus route in the city to share space with luas around Nassau-Grafton-College Green? Some of the routes will have to change permanently, otherwise you've a wall of yellow double deckers and trams going nowhere.

Aard · 14-01-2015 3:08pm

Perhaps some routes could remain diverted via Camden St to reduce pressure on Lower Grafton.

LXFlyer · 14-01-2015 3:41pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Is it feasible for almost every bus route in the city to share space with luas around Nassau-Grafton-College Green? Some of the routes will have to change permanently, otherwise you've a wall of yellow double deckers and trams going nowhere.

Well I don't see why the far greater number of bus passengers should have a longer journey to facilitate fewer tram passengers. If not then Suffolk Street and Church Lane come back into the equation northbound, and then onto the south side of College Green which could become a two way bus lane.

Aard wrote: »

Perhaps some routes could remain diverted via Camden St to reduce pressure on Lower Grafton.

One would hope not - it is significantly slower via Camden Street.

monument · 14-01-2015 3:48pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well I don't see why the far greater number of bus passengers should have a longer journey to facilitate fewer tram passengers. If not then Suffolk Street and Church Lane come back into the equation northbound, and then onto the south side of College Green which could become a two way bus lane.

One would hope not - it is significantly slower via Camden Street.

Why? Because if all buses go down that route after Luas is in there everybody will be going slower than if some buses went around.

Sources tell me RPA still unwilling to state how much of a traffic impact it will have -- need for 24 hour CG bus gate etc.

LXFlyer · 14-01-2015 4:16pm

monument wrote: »

Why? Because if all buses go down that route after Luas is in there everybody will be going slower than if some buses went around.

Sources tell me RPA still unwilling to state how much of a traffic impact it will have -- need for 24 hour CG bus gate etc.

So do you think it acceptable that a much greater number of people on board the buses should facilitate a smaller group of tram users by having to endure a longer journey?

There will have to be a 24 hour public transport gate - nothing less is going to work.

I still find it utterly disgraceful that no analysis of the negative impact on bus services was made at the time of the Railway Order application.

Aard · 14-01-2015 4:32pm

With traffic management measures put in I don't see why the Camden/Georges route should be any slower than via Earlsfort Tce.

LXFlyer · 14-01-2015 5:04pm

Aard wrote: »

With traffic management measures put in I don't see why the Camden/Georges route should be any slower than via Earlsfort Tce.

Right - try that on any Thursday, Friday or Saturday night when taxis cause mayhem. Do you seriously think that is going to change?

It's perfectly possible for southbound buses to share the entire section from College Street to Nassau Street with LUAS - with no bus stops on that section and only pedestrian lights that's not going to cause unnecessary delays.

I don't see why northbound buses could not share Nassau Street either, with the stops on Suffolk Street removed thereby removing any sticking point.

nowecant · 14-01-2015 6:47pm

At least the new conta flow Bus lane at the bleeding horse will help improve the times. http://www.dublincycling.ie/cycling/bleeding-horse-contraflow-open-1100-wed-14th-jan-2015 The are also making Pierce Street a double bus lane.

While I understand that it will certainly cause difficulty moving traffic away from Suffolk street and eventually full pedestrianisation (hopefully) of college green i believe it is inevitable and the right thing to do.

cgcsb wrote: »

Your big obstacle there is the Drury and BT car parks. CPO them?

I think BT and the owners of Trinity Street should simply redevelop them as shops/retail. (Does the council own Dury Street????) Give them notice that over the next 3 years (??) that traffic will keep finding it harder to access these areas, through removal of access and increasing the wait times at red lights to give better access for pedestrians.

Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Comments