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The "First" Irish people

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  • #202
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    The R1b found in Cameroon is a different branch of R1b, there are multiple sub-branches as can be seen on the Haplogroup Tree for R.
    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

    The Western European R1b is mostly made up of the P312 clade (R1b1b2a1a2). African R1b is marked by the V88 clade (R1b1a)

    This points that both shared a comman male ancestor at a very early stage. V88 isn't found in Europe apart from in recent immigrants and is tied with the expansion of the Chadic languages in Africa.

    Within P312 there are several distinct subclades. The most common in Ireland is L21 (R1b1b2a1a2f) which is found from Ireland in the west to Austria in the east (very common in France). It's been postulated that the expansion of L21 is tied with that of Celtic languages. In Ireland there are a number of sub-clades of L21 that are tied to specific Irish septs/tribes.

    For example M222 (R1b1b2a1a2f2) is tied to the Uí Neill and the Uí Briúin and the Uí Fiachra which are both branches of the ancient Connachta (supposedly descended from the half brothers Niall,Brion and Fiachra).

    L226 (R1b1b2a1a2f4) appears to be the signature of the Dál gCais, it's reported in men who bear Dál gCais surnames including "The O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin)

    I myself am just plain old L21* I haven't tested positive for any of the let discovered sub-clades under L21.

    Germanic R1b is mostly in another P312 clade. This is S28/U152 (R1b1b2a1a2d) which has a very high incidence in the Netherlands. The other major haplogroup among the Germanics is I2b which is interesting as linguists often consider that Germanic languages has been heavily influenced by a non Indo-European language.

    In Ireland 90% of men are R1b most of remaining 10% belong to haplogroup I specificially I1 which appears to be that of the pre-celtic speaking male population. Irish men who are I2b are showing potential Germanic ancestory (be that viking/Norman/English/Palatine German)

    Some have postulated that the Centum/Satem spilt in Indo-European languages are connected with difference between R1a and R1b. For example most Satem language populations are high in R1a (slavic/baltic/Indic/Iranic) whereas R1b is high in Centum languages (Celtic/Germanic/Italic)


  • #203
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    dubhthach wrote: »
    The R1b found in Cameroon is a different branch of R1b, there are multiple sub-branches as can be seen on the Haplogroup Tree for R.
    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

    The Western European R1b is mostly made up of the P312 clade (R1b1b2a1a2). African R1b is marked by the V88 clade (R1b1a)

    This points that both shared a comman male ancestor at a very early stage. V88 isn't found in Europe apart from in recent immigrants and is tied with the expansion of the Chadic languages in Africa.

    Within P312 there are several distinct subclades. The most common in Ireland is L21 (R1b1b2a1a2f) which is found from Ireland in the west to Austria in the east (very common in France). It's been postulated that the expansion of L21 is tied with that of Celtic languages. In Ireland there are a number of sub-clades of L21 that are tied to specific Irish septs/tribes.

    For example M222 (R1b1b2a1a2f2) is tied to the Uí Neill and the Uí Briúin and the Uí Fiachra which are both branches of the ancient Connachta (supposedly descended from the half brothers Niall,Brion and Fiachra).

    L226 (R1b1b2a1a2f4) appears to be the signature of the Dál gCais, it's reported in men who bear Dál gCais surnames including "The O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin)

    I myself am just plain old L21* I haven't tested positive for any of the let discovered sub-clades under L21.

    Germanic R1b is mostly in another P312 clade. This is S28/U152 (R1b1b2a1a2d) which has a very high incidence in the Netherlands. The other major haplogroup among the Germanics is I2b which is interesting as linguists often consider that Germanic languages has been heavily influenced by a non Indo-European language.

    In Ireland 90% of men are R1b most of remaining 10% belong to haplogroup I specificially I1 which appears to be that of the pre-celtic speaking male population. Irish men who are I2b are showing potential Germanic ancestory (be that viking/Norman/English/Palatine German)

    Some have postulated that the Centum/Satem spilt in Indo-European languages are connected with difference between R1a and R1b. For example most Satem language populations are high in R1a (slavic/baltic/Indic/Iranic) whereas R1b is high in Centum languages (Celtic/Germanic/Italic)

    Isn't there also a grouping which appears mainly on the East Coast? I sent my sample to 23 and me a few weeks ago, hopefully on a few weeks I'll get it back.
    R1b is oh my god like so 2005; E or J would be good.


  • #204
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Isn't there also a grouping which appears mainly on the East Coast? I sent my sample to 23 and me a few weeks ago, hopefully on a few weeks I'll get it back.
    R1b is oh my god like so 2005; E or J would be good.

    Well when it comes to Y-Chromosome STR (short tandem repeats) there are a number of Irish clusters. So far at least two of these clusters have been tied to SNP (Single-nucleotide polymorphism) such as M222 or L226.

    All of these clusters as far as I know are L21 here's a list that I know of:
    • Uí Neill cluster (M222) -- Irish Northwestern Modal
    • Dal gCais cluster (L226) -- Irish Type III cluster
    • Laigin Cluster (no distinct SNP let)
    • South Irish cluster (no distinct SNP let)
    • Airghialla cluster (no distinct SNP let)

    Someone who is in say the Uí Neill cluster will have STR markings close to this: M5UKQ

    If they then did SNP testing would probably show them as M222+, 23andme doesn't test for STR's but for SNP's so depending on list of SNP's on their chip you might be able to get quite exact data on your y-chromosome.

    I've tested with Familytreedna, have results of over 95 STR's but I don't have any matches in their database with anyone within the last 6 generations, I also don't belong to any clusters. As part of my testing I've done deep clade SNP testing. Which has shown I'm just L21+
    P312+ L21+ M222- M37- P66- L96- L130- L144- L159.2- L192- L193- L195- L226- P314.2- L9- L10-, L69-

    I've also did a test with 23andme in early december and should hopefully get the result by the end of the week. Good thing about 23andme is they do testing on your autosomal DNA (all 23 pairs not just the X/Y) as well as Mitochondrial (female line).

    There's a very interesting project been run called "The Dodecad project" where they take your 23andme raw data and tell you the exact break down of your autosomal DNA (population admixture). For example the Irish members (8) of project break down on average as:
    Northern European: 64.9%
    Southern European: 26.7%
    West Asian: 7.8%
    South Asian: 0.6%

    Image (click for bigger)
    Irish_D_10.png

    Regarding haplogroup E and J those would be quite exotic in an Irish context, E is generally linked with Africans and Southern Europeans whereas J is extremely comon among Semetic population (Jews/arabs). As an Irish person if you don't test R1b highest probability would be haplogroup I. It does look that some names associated with the ruling families of the Ulad/Dál nAraide/Cruithne are haplogroup I.


  • #205
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Well when it comes to Y-Chromosome STR (short tandem repeats) there are a number of Irish clusters. So far at least two of these clusters have been tied to SNP (Single-nucleotide polymorphism) such as M222 or L226.


    All of these clusters as far as I know are L21 here's a list that I know of:
    • Uí Neill cluster (M222) -- Irish Northwestern Modal
    • Dal gCais cluster (L226) -- Irish Type III cluster
    • Laigin Cluster (no distinct SNP let)
    • South Irish cluster (no distinct SNP let)
    • Airghialla cluster (no distinct SNP let)
    Someone who is in say the Uí Neill cluster will have STR markings close to this: M5UKQ

    If they then did SNP testing would probably show them as M222+, 23andme doesn't test for STR's but for SNP's so depending on list of SNP's on their chip you might be able to get quite exact data on your y-chromosome.

    I've tested with Familytreedna, have results of over 95 STR's but I don't have any matches in their database with anyone within the last 6 generations, I also don't belong to any clusters. As part of my testing I've done deep clade SNP testing. Which has shown I'm just L21+



    I've also did a test with 23andme in early december and should hopefully get the result by the end of the week. Good thing about 23andme is they do testing on your autosomal DNA (all 23 pairs not just the X/Y) as well as Mitochondrial (female line).

    There's a very interesting project been run called "The Dodecad project" where they take your 23andme raw data and tell you the exact break down of your autosomal DNA (population admixture). For example the Irish members (8) of project break down on average as:
    Northern European: 64.9%
    Southern European: 26.7%
    West Asian: 7.8%
    South Asian: 0.6%

    Image (click for bigger)
    Irish_D_10.png

    Regarding haplogroup E and J those would be quite exotic in an Irish context, E is generally linked with Africans and Southern Europeans whereas J is extremely comon among Semetic population (Jews/arabs). As an Irish person if you don't test R1b highest probability would be haplogroup I. It does look that some names associated with the ruling families of the Ulad/Dál nAraide/Cruithne are haplogroup I.

    That Dodecast is by that Greek blogger Dienekes isn't it?
    I'd expect my results to be M222; as my surname originated in Galway (like you said earlier the range of M222 goes beyond the UiNiall).
    Is there a point where the irish clusters intersect? A common ancestor outside of Ireland, if you will.


  • #206
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    fontanalis wrote: »
    That Dodecast is by that Greek blogger Dienekes isn't it?
    I'd expect my results to be M222; as my surname originated in Galway (like you said earlier the range of M222 goes beyond the UiNiall).
    Is there a point where the irish clusters intersect? A common ancestor outside of Ireland, if you will.

    Well if all of the clusters are L21+ (if you are M222+ you are automatically L21+) then they would have shared a common ancestor who was first to carry the L21 snp. L21 has been reported in France and over as far as Austria. However problem with alot of amateur genetic testing that most people getting test are Americans. The three biggest ancestral groups for white americans are the: Germans, Irish, British.

    Until testing becomes more common in Europe (including Ireland) it's going to be hard to get a broader view. Currently the picture is alot more detailed then it was 5 years ago. Back then the major SNP groups in R1b hadn't been discovered. I can imagine that in 5 more years that our imagine of the Haplogroup tree will be even more different.

    M222 is a good example of "dominant male replacement". In that you could get a small population of warrior invaders who due to higher social standing (been conquerors) end up swamping the local male population over multiple generations. What happens is they have more male children who survive to adulthood. A good example given on M222 is that one of the Kings of Tír Chonnail in the 15th century (Ó Domhnaill) had 15 surviving male children from 3-4wives.

    As a result 1 in 6 Irish men carry M222 even though it's only believed to have arisen about 1700-2000 years ago.


  • #207
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Well if all of the clusters are L21+ (if you are M222+ you are automatically L21+) then they would have shared a common ancestor who was first to carry the L21 snp. L21 has been reported in France and over as far as Austria. However problem with alot of amateur genetic testing that most people getting test are Americans. The three biggest ancestral groups for white americans are the: Germans, Irish, British.

    Until testing becomes more common in Europe (including Ireland) it's going to be hard to get a broader view. Currently the picture is alot more detailed then it was 5 years ago. Back then the major SNP groups in R1b hadn't been discovered. I can imagine that in 5 more years that our imagine of the Haplogroup tree will be even more different.

    M222 is a good example of "dominant male replacement". In that you could get a small population of warrior invaders who due to higher social standing (been conquerors) end up swamping the local male population over multiple generations. What happens is they have more male children who survive to adulthood. A good example given on M222 is that one of the Kings of Tír Chonnail in the 15th century (Ó Domhnaill) had 15 surviving male children from 3-4wives.

    As a result 1 in 6 Irish men carry M222 even though it's only believed to have arisen about 1700-2000 years ago.

    It's basically an Irish Genghis Khan effect isn't it?
    Doesn't this also pose problems for future testing within Ireland? You gave an example of one king with 15 sons; if there isn't a "filter" inplace to take account of these instances won't the results be skewed in favour of these male lines?


  • #208
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    fontanalis wrote: »
    It's basically an Irish Genghis Khan effect isn't it?
    Doesn't this also pose problems for future testing within Ireland? You gave an example of one king with 15 sons; if there isn't a "filter" inplace to take account of these instances won't the results be skewed in favour of these male lines?

    The Genghis Khan effect indeed. Niall is generally ranked up there with him in this regard. However more then likely he isn't the originater given that families with other Connachta "dynasties" carry M222 as well (Uí Briúin, Uí Fiachra). One funny thing about M222 that most people don't know is that a very high proportion of O'Neill's (surname not dynastic group) aren't M222. It would seem there was a NPE (non-paternal event) occured sometime between the 12th and 14th century.

    TBH the ruling dynasties of "Gaelic Ireland" are always going to be well represented. What potentially might happen in the future is that a new SNP is found that divides M222. For example there might be one that is only found in M222 men who have names connected with the Uí Briúin (O'Connor, O'Rourke, O'Malley, O'Flaherty etc.) so it's still worthwhile to test men who are M222. I think one thing that would be good is if we have more testing from people bearing "minor" names. What I mean is names that are not connected to kings etc. (my name would be an example: Duffy).

    Here's an image from 2006 regarding Niall's purported STR signature. As you can see it reaches a peak in around Inishowen and in Connacht (Uí Briúin)
    ireland470.645.jpg


  • #209
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    I think I read somewhere that there are two O'Neill lineages; the "main" one and a Southern one. This ties in with your non parental event; probably down to someone adopting it due to allegiances etc
    You mentioned the cruithne earlier; I read somewhere that they had links around Roscommon. Isn't this also the rough region where the Connachta hailed from?
    What is known about the cruithne; anything I've read always seems to tie them to the Picts and also to p-celtic speaking groups. Also who were the Connachta and what kind of background did they claim?


  • #210
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    I think people get abit too hung up on the P/Q celtic divide. Looking at Welsh now obviously it seems quite alien compared to Irish but when you understand the orthographical differences you can see words that have common meanings. They reckon that the spilt between Irish and Welsh could be about 2,500 years, given that neither was written for a further 1,000 years it's not surprising that they look different, but in sense the basic P/Q divide is like the "High German" shift. For example Dutch only shifted th ->d but it didn't do for example d -> t (English: day, Dutch: Dag, German: Tag) or t -> ss (english that, German dass

    As for Cruithne I can't really comment as I don't know enough though the medieval Dal nAirde are purported to be their successors. If they had originally been p-celtic then they had undergone language shift. Given the closeness of the two languages at the time this wouldn't have been too hard (lot easier then shifting Irish to English for example).

    The Connachta if you believe the ancient Genealogists are descended from Conn Cétchathach (Conn of the 100 battles). Who supposedly lived in the 2nd century around the time of Marcus Aurelis and who ruled the northern half of Ireland (line from Galway to Dublin) as Leath Cuinn (Conn's half). The southern half (leath Mugh) been ruled by the ancestor of the Éoganacht: Mug Nuadat

    However alot of Irish history at this stage is purely conjucture if not outright mythology in it's own way. It would seem that the history books were rewritten by the Uí Neill for dynastic propaganda.


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  • #211
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    dubhthach wrote: »
    I think people get abit too hung up on the P/Q celtic divide. Looking at Welsh now obviously it seems quite alien compared to Irish but when you understand the orthographical differences you can see words that have common meanings. They reckon that the spilt between Irish and Welsh could be about 2,500 years, given that neither was written for a further 1,000 years it's not surprising that they look different, but in sense the basic P/Q divide is like the "High German" shift. For example Dutch only shifted th ->d but it didn't do for example d -> t (English: day, Dutch: Dag, German: Tag) or t -> ss (english that, German dass

    As for Cruithne I can't really comment as I don't know enough though the medieval Dal nAirde are purported to be their successors. If they had originally been p-celtic then they had undergone language shift. Given the closeness of the two languages at the time this wouldn't have been too hard (lot easier then shifting Irish to English for example).

    The Connachta if you believe the ancient Genealogists are descended from Conn Cétchathach (Conn of the 100 battles). Who supposedly lived in the 2nd century around the time of Marcus Aurelis and who ruled the northern half of Ireland (line from Galway to Dublin) as Leath Cuinn (Conn's half). The southern half (leath Mugh) been ruled by the ancestor of the Éoganacht: Mug Nuadat

    However alot of Irish history at this stage is purely conjucture if not outright mythology in it's own way. It would seem that the history books were rewritten by the Uí Neill for dynastic propaganda.

    Is there any truth to the charge that they moved the seat of the high king to Tara from a more western location?


  • #212
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Is there any truth to the charge that they moved the seat of the high king to Tara from a more western location?

    I don't think we'll ever know tbh. Obviously the Connachta were mostly based out of Cruachain Ai in what's now Roscommon but I think Tara was always associated with High Kingship. Before the rise of the Uí Neill it would seem that some of the "high kings" were of the Laigin. For example the annals talk about the death of "Mac Caírthinn Uí Enechglaiss" in battle in Kingdom of Brega (Eastern-Meath) in the mid 5th century. What's interesting is that there is an Ogham stone in Slane that verifies the existance of this king. The stone says
    "MAQI CAIRATINI AVI INEQUAGLASI"

    It's reckoned he was killed in the battle that saw the Uí Neill take Tara. Generally it's reckoned that history was rewritten by the Uí Neill in the period after their ascent to power. For example the oldest know king list dates to period 700-720 and is called "Baile Chuind Chétchathaig" (Baile = Buile = mania/frenzy, in this case the vision frenzy of Conn of hundred battles) which has Conn having a vision about the future kings. Or in other words justifying the Uí Neill pocession of the throne as it had been predicted by Conn.

    Propaganda and rewriting is fairly common thoughout history. For example the Dál gCais wrote "Cogad Gáedel re Gallaib" (the war of the irish with the foreigner) to emphasise Brian Boru defeat over the "wicked pagan" vikings.

    Anyways if you had sent your 23andme sample in early december you should log in and see if there is an update. Mine says:
    Lab processing complete. Data loaded on January 22, 2011. Allow 3 business days for Quality Control.


  • #213
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Data processing complete; three days and I'll know.
    What did yours reveal?


  • #214
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Data processing complete; three days and I'll know.
    What did yours reveal?

    Well it confirmed that I was 100% European and placed me right in the middle of the Irish population cluster. Interesting I'm a carrier of a gene that can cause the mild form of Haemochromotosis (you need to have two copies to suffer from the condition) which is interesting as we have the highest levels of Haemochromotosis in the world (it's believe it might originate in "Celtic" populations)

    Once Dienekes reopens the submission period I'll submit it to the Dodecad project so I can get a more fine grain result on the specific ancestor clusters. Given that I'm in the middle of the Irish cluster I would reckon my genetic admixture is fairly typical of most Irish people eg. 65%~ North European, 25-27%~ South European, 7-10% West Asian

    My wife who is a Filipina comes back as 87% Asian, 12% European and <1% African, not surprising as one of her Great-Gandfathers was Spanish.


  • #215
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    I still can't get my head around the admixture percentages; take the 7% West Eurasian, what does that mean?
    Are you aware fo any studies focusing on Irish ancestry that I can give my results to?


  • #216
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    fontanalis wrote: »
    I still can't get my head around the admixture percentages; take the 7% West Eurasian, what does that mean?
    Are you aware fo any studies focusing on Irish ancestry that I can give my results to?

    Well it appears to be made up possibly of two things.
    1. Agriculture developed in the middle east (Fertile crescent), as a result the first farmers would have some west-asian admixture
    2. It appears that the proto-Indo Europeans assimilated a population with a "west asian" genetic profile at a very early stage

    With regards the Indo-European theory this can be seen with "west asian" admixture in all Indo-European language populations in Europe. you don't see it however in the Basques who telling speak a non-IE language.

    The modal population for this component appears to be in a population sampled in Dagestan (Caucasus). The modal population for "South European" is the population in Sardinia, whereas the highest percentage for "North European" is among the Finns and Lithuanian

    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/fine-scale-admixture-in-europe.html.

    The Dodecad project currently has 8 Irish participants. It's not accepting submissions at the moment but when he opens it up again I'm going to submit my raw data.
    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/

    Irish_D_10.png


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  • #217
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    My data is up; I2b1. Was expecting M222.


  • #218
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Well Haplogroup I tends to make up the bulk of the Irish male population that isn't R1b, you could be potentially one of the very first Irish or you could be a viking ;)

    I believe there is a specific subclade of I2b1 that appears to have developed in Britian and Ireland (I2b1a) generally the best place to go for Y-Chromosome testing is familytreedna. They will give you STR markers on your Y which can be used to see if you belong to a specific cluster of I2b1 they will also do further testing further down the line to see if you belong to a specific sub-haplogroup. I did all my Y testing with them a couple months ago.


  • #219
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Well Haplogroup I tends to make up the bulk of the Irish male population that isn't R1b, you could be potentially one of the very first Irish or you could be a viking ;)

    I believe there is a specific subclade of I2b1 that appears to have developed in Britian and Ireland (I2b1a) generally the best place to go for Y-Chromosome testing is familytreedna. They will give you STR markers on your Y which can be used to see if you belong to a specific cluster of I2b1 they will also do further testing further down the line to see if you belong to a specific sub-haplogroup. I did all my Y testing with them a couple months ago.

    A bloody blow in! Interesting stuff, a lot of digging around to do.
    Also maternal haplogroup H3.


  • #220
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    fontanalis wrote: »
    A bloody blow in! Interesting stuff, a lot of digging around to do.
    Also maternal haplogroup H3.

    Well no not necessary. If any male lineage in Europe could be regarded as "Native european" then it's probably Haplogroup I, it appears to be that of the earliest men in Europe. In comparison R1b which I am developed in central Asia/Plains of Russia. :D

    My Mitrochondrial haplogroup is U4 which appears quite common in Scandinavia/eastern europe. I believe mt Haplogroup H is among the most common in Ireland.

    If you do a search of my username on 23andme we can share see if there are any shared segments.


  • #221
    eh2010
    Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭eh2010


    dubhthach wrote: »
    The Genghis Khan effect indeed. Niall is generally ranked up there with him in this regard. However more then likely he isn't the originater given that families with other Connachta "dynasties" carry M222 as well (Uí Briúin, Uí Fiachra). One funny thing about M222 that most people don't know is that a very high proportion of O'Neill's (surname not dynastic group) aren't M222. It would seem there was a NPE (non-paternal event) occured sometime between the 12th and 14th century.

    TBH the ruling dynasties of "Gaelic Ireland" are always going to be well represented. What potentially might happen in the future is that a new SNP is found that divides M222. For example there might be one that is only found in M222 men who have names connected with the Uí Briúin (O'Connor, O'Rourke, O'Malley, O'Flaherty etc.) so it's still worthwhile to test men who are M222. I think one thing that would be good is if we have more testing from people bearing "minor" names. What I mean is names that are not connected to kings etc. (my name would be an example: Duffy).

    Here's an image from 2006 regarding Niall's purported STR signature. As you can see it reaches a peak in around Inishowen and in Connacht (Uí Briúin)
    ireland470.645.jpg


    How would you know if you're descended from Niall of the 9 hostages?.


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  • #222
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    eh2010 wrote: »
    How would you know if you're descended from Niall of the 9 hostages?.

    Get your Y-Chromosome analysed is the simple answer. There is a specific "Haplotype" (collection of marker repeats) that is associated with men who bear surnames connected to the Uí Néill as well as their relatives in the wider Connachta (Uí Briúin and Uí Fiachrach). There is also a specific SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) called M222 that defines this specific clade of men. Basically all men who teste positive for M222 are descended from one man who lived 1600-1900 years ago. Given high level of M222 among men bearing surnames connected to Connachta and Uí Néill it looks like Niall probably bore it (if he actually existed). Above map is actually distrubition of men who carry this haplotype. It peaks in Donegal and also in West Roscommon (home of the O'Connors, Flanagans, McDermots and McDonaghs all of the Uí Briúin)


  • #223
    eh2010
    Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭eh2010


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Get your Y-Chromosome analysed is the simple answer. There is a specific "Haplotype" (collection of marker repeats) that is associated with men who bear surnames connected to the Uí Néill as well as their relatives in the wider Connachta (Uí Briúin and Uí Fiachrach). There is also a specific SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) called M222 that defines this specific clade of men. Basically all men who teste positive for M222 are descended from one man who lived 1600-1900 years ago. Given high level of M222 among men bearing surnames connected to Connachta and Uí Néill it looks like Niall probably bore it (if he actually existed). Above map is actually distrubition of men who carry this haplotype. It peaks in Donegal and also in West Roscommon (home of the O'Connors, Flanagans, McDermots and McDonaghs all of the Uí Briúin)

    Ok. If you could trace a surname in your family to one of Niall's sons do you think that would mean you're related to him?


  • #224
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    eh2010 wrote: »
    Ok. If you could trace a surname in your family to one of Niall's sons do you think that would mean you're related to him?

    Well it's a start that's for sure. However there's a number of caveats here:
    • Irish genealogies were tampered with for political purposes
    • Non-Paternal Events (NPE) occur

    For example it looks like the main line of the O'Neill family suffered a NPE event probably back in 12-14th century. There are O'Neill's who are M222 but majority aren't see:
    http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf

    O'Neill's are of the Cinél Eoghain which are descendants of Niall's son Eoghan. Though in their case they are specifically the descendants of Niall Glundubh who was High King of Ireland and killed fighting the Vikings in 919AD (or thereabouts)


  • #225
    tomasocarthaigh
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭tomasocarthaigh


    Anyone familiar with Travellers legends of them being the origional Irish folk before the arrival of the last of the Celts?

    Its an interesting theory, and the Shelta language that they have could very well the the remnants of the "Iron" language of the bards (from whom the Wards take their name... Mac an Bhaird).

    Feedback please, and no need for deragatory comments...



  • #226
    tomasocarthaigh
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭tomasocarthaigh


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Is there any truth to the charge that they moved the seat of the high king to Tara from a more western location?

    There is a site outside of Kilbeggan in Westmeath that is supposed to be more important than Tara... cant remeber its name now...


  • #227
    GhostInTheRuins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    tomasocarthaigh wrote: »
    There is a site outside of Kilbeggan in Westmeath that is supposed to be more important than Tara... cant remeber its name now...

    Crúachain/Rathcroghan perhaps?

    I know there was another place over in the west which some chap had a website about, he claimed it was the real main royal site in Ireland, and not Tara. I can't remember now exactly but he claimed that moving the royal site to Tara in legend was an Ui Neill conspiracy or something. He had a book and everything but I can't find the website.


  • #228
    Farcheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 277 ✭✭Farcheal


    If you look at the historical evidence, ot makes sense, Irish scottish and manx are Giodlic langiages I believe the originate fromi Galician a language in north westwrn spain. However Wales, Brittany and maybe Cornwall were Brythonic. so was England but it was changed due to invasion. Scottish was Pictish umtil Dal raita or the scoti took over from Ireland. It seems as if Gaelic culture comes from celtic iberians, whilst brythonic from brittany, basically 2 surving isolated celt groups.


  • #229
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    tomasocarthaigh wrote: »
    Anyone familiar with Travellers legends of them being the origional Irish folk before the arrival of the last of the Celts?

    Its an interesting theory, and the Shelta language that they have could very well the the remnants of the "Iron" language of the bards (from whom the Wards take their name... Mac an Bhaird).

    Feedback please, and no need for deragatory comments...
    Worthwhile piece on the subject here. Dubhtach's opinion would be interesting.

    5. Conclusion (I'm sure a certain plastic Irishman will moan ; ))

    The turbulent history of Ireland, with its waves of invasions and immigrations, offers an unique opportunity to examine population structure in relation to biological variation and population history. In this study, three main conclusions can be made. First, these analyses support Crawford's (1975) hypotheses concerning the Irish origins and genetic affinity of the Travellers. Judging from the .R-matrix analyses, the Travellers are undoubtedly of Irish ancestry, due to their proximity to the centroid. Furthermore, the Travellers clustered with several heterogeneous counties in Ireland, including Wexford and Westmeath. Therefore, these data support that the origin of the Travellers was not a sudden event; rather a gradual formation of populations. Indeed, the Travellers probably originated with craftsmen and artisans forced to leave their monasteries (Crawford 1975). Later, their population grew as they were joined by various Irish groups that were forced to leave their homes because of various calamities and political upheavals (i.e. the potato famine and the repression of British occupation) (Crawford 1975). However, the timing of the Traveller origin is not certain and may have predated the historical period (e.g. Ni Shuinear 1996).

    Second, our analyses suggest that at the level of the country, the major influence on population structure was population history. Although our analyses suggest that Ireland is genetically homogeneous, several distinct subpopulations were identified that may have been formed because of historical gene flow. These findings further confirm that the hierarchical level of analysis has an important impact on the results of studies of the population structure of Ireland (Relethford et al. 1997, North et al. 1999). Indeed, recent research by North and colleagues identified different spatial patterns of biological variation, depending on the level of analysis (North et al.)

    Third, the .R-matrix analyses support Relethford and Crawford's (1995) hypothesis concerning the distinctiveness of the midland counties due to Viking influence. In this analysis, the midland counties clustered with Norway.
    (The source link for review seems to be dead)


  • #230
    goose2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    eh2010 wrote: »
    How would you know if you're descended from Niall of the 9 hostages?.

    You definitely are; however, this shows if he is your male-line (father's father's father's ... father) ancestor.

    tomasocarthaigh wrote: »
    Anyone familiar with Travellers legends of them being the origional Irish folk before the arrival of the last of the Celts?

    Its an interesting theory, and the Shelta language that they have could very well the the remnants of the "Iron" language of the bards (from whom the Wards take their name... Mac an Bhaird).

    Feedback please, and no need for deragatory comments...

    There were always itinerant people in Ireland, migrant labourers, evicted peasants, tradesmen, "gombeens", etc. There's nothing to suggest that Travellers are any more than the descendants of those who chose not to emigrate/move to towns in the 19th century. Shelta is entirely derived from English and Irish.


  • #231
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    The subject of travellers' possible origins was well covered previously in this forum here
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056275415


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  • #232
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    tomasocarthaigh wrote: »
    Anyone familiar with Travellers legends of them being the origional Irish folk before the arrival of the last of the Celts?

    Its an interesting theory, and the Shelta language that they have could very well the the remnants of the "Iron" language of the bards (from whom the Wards take their name... Mac an Bhaird).

    Feedback please, and no need for deragatory comments...


    its an interesting one alright and a sizeable amount of evidence to support it, though its not without controversy. My gf is a traveller and is doing a historic study of music in the community for a phd. She did find an intersting reference to nomadic 'tinkers' in a 12th century writting. dont have the reference handy im afraid


  • #233
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Well going on "Blood of the Travellers" TV program which unfortunatley was very light the following conclusions could be reached:
    • Ward was a carrier of M222 (subset of L21) on his Y-Chromosome -- connected to Connachta/Uí Néill
    • Collins was told he belonged to most common Y-Haplogroup in Ireland: ergo they must mean L21 (70-80% of all Irishmen)
    • The women had Mitochondrial Haplogroup H -- again very common in Ireland
    • Travellers cluster together, the closest non-traveller population to them are "settled Irish"
    • Potential time of divergence between the two populations was put between 500 and 800 years ago

    Travellers in general have native Irish surnames often based on those of ruling families from west of Ireland (Ward, McDonagh, Connors etc.) Barrett was an exception as they are Cambro-Norman who became more Irish then the Irish themselves -- held lands in Mayo.

    Most people seem to forget that there was always a high level of nomadism in Ireland during middle ages. Be it from tradesmen/craftsmen to travelling poets (Ward = mac an Bhaird eg. son of the poet) entertainers. Likewise alot of irish population were pastorlists who would would move between two areas with their cattle depending on seasons of the year.

    Anyways as mentioned above the travellers tested form their own "cluster" this is probably due to the fact that as intermarriage between the two communities fell (due to societal issues post 17th century) you ended up getting a degree of drift between the two populations.

    From a y-Haplogroup point of view (classification of a man's Y-Chromosome). Most men in Ireland belong to Haplogroup R1b. The most common branch of R1b in an Irish context is called L21 (R1b-L21). It probably first arose in one man between 3700 and 4,000 years ago (2000BC-1700BC). The current evidence points to Northern/Eastern France as probably source location.

    R1b-deepClade.png

    Men connected to the Connachta/Uí Néill tend to carry the marker M222. This is a sub-branch of wider L21 (eg. all M222+ men are L21+). Currently dating puts it at between 1600 and 2000 years ago, thence connection often made to Niall (who lived 4th/5th century)


  • #234
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Farcheal wrote: »
    If you look at the historical evidence, ot makes sense, Irish scottish and manx are Giodlic langiages I believe the originate fromi Galician a language in north westwrn spain. However Wales, Brittany and maybe Cornwall were Brythonic. so was England but it was changed due to invasion. Scottish was Pictish umtil Dal raita or the scoti took over from Ireland. It seems as if Gaelic culture comes from celtic iberians, whilst brythonic from brittany, basically 2 surving isolated celt groups.

    Eh no, Goidelic and Brythonic probably broke up about 900BC going on the work done by computer linguists. More then likely you had a large area of Western Europe covered by "Proto-Celtic" speaking populations in the late Bronze age. This would probably correspond with "Atlantic Bronze Age" culture in the west and Urnfield culture in the east.

    At a later stage a sound change occurred in continental celtic (Q->P -- simplified notation). This probably occurred in area that was Urnfield culture and from which Hallstat and La Tène material culture sprang. Over time the sound-shift spread. However neither Ireland or Iberia underwent the sound shift as both were at this stage at peripheral of "Celtic speaking Europe".

    Our closest genetic matches are with Western Britain, in otherwords areas that are/were Brythonic speaking the longest.


  • #235
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    tomasocarthaigh wrote: »
    There is a site outside of Kilbeggan in Westmeath that is supposed to be more important than Tara... cant remeber its name now...

    The Hill of Uisneach (Cnoc Uisnigh) which was regarded as the center of Ireland is ancient times (The navel) and which all provincial boundaries were suppose to meet.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_of_Uisneach

    Of course the actual geographical center isn't the Hill of Uisneach but it's near by, so wasn't a bad effort by ancient people who didn't have GPS ;)


  • #236
    Farcheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 277 ✭✭Farcheal


    People I would just like to clear up if there is any misconception. The Uí Néill are not the same as the O'Neill. It is not the continuation of that dynasty. Uí Néill is Niall of the Nine hostages, O'Neill is a lesser Subject also named Niall. Just to prove this theory, trinity College did a survey on 80 O'Neill's for the original Niall's DNA and only 5 of them came back with results indicating they were his descendents.


  • #237
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Farcheal wrote: »
    People I would just like to clear up if there is any misconception. The Uí Néill are not the same as the O'Neill. It is not the continuation of that dynasty. Uí Néill is Niall of the Nine hostages, O'Neill is a lesser Subject also named Niall. Just to prove this theory, trinity College did a survey on 80 O'Neill's for the original Niall's DNA and only 5 of them came back with results indicating they were his descendents.

    The Ó Néill claim descent from Niall Glúndubh (Black-knee) who was High-King of Ireland from 916-919AD and was killed in battle with the Dublin vikings. they are however members of the Northern Uí Néill via membership of the Cinél nEoghain. What seems to have happened though is that the mainline of the O'Neill family underwent a NPE (non-paternal Event). This ties in probably with the period when the Ó Néill's lost their position in the kingship of the Cinél nEoghain to the Mac Lochlainn. When they came back into power in 13th century their powerbase had shifted to east Tyrone.

    There are men who bear surname O'Neill who are M222, but it's apparant that mainline of the family is not of this lineage. Of course you see similiar belief bout interference in the line during the 16th century with the case of Aodh Mór Ó Néill (Hugh O'Neill -- Earl of Tyrone). You also have to remember that there are O'Neill families from other parts of countries who claim descent from completely different Niall's.

    Article was published about it in Journal of Genetic Genealogy couple years ago:
    jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf


  • #238
    Farcheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 277 ✭✭Farcheal


    dubhthach wrote: »
    The Ó Néill claim descent from Niall Glúndubh (Black-knee) who was High-King of Ireland from 916-919AD and was killed in battle with the Dublin vikings. they are however members of the Northern Uí Néill via membership of the Cinél nEoghain. What seems to have happened though is that the mainline of the O'Neill family underwent a NPE (non-paternal Event). This ties in probably with the period when the Ó Néill's lost their position in the kingship of the Cinél nEoghain to the Mac Lochlainn. When they came back into power in 13th century their powerbase had shifted to east Tyrone.

    There are men who bear surname O'Neill who are M222, but it's apparant that mainline of the family is not of this lineage. Of course you see similiar belief bout interference in the line during the 16th century with the case of Aodh Mór Ó Néill (Hugh O'Neill -- Earl of Tyrone). You also have to remember that there are O'Neill families from other parts of countries who claim descent from completely different Niall's.

    Article was published about it in Journal of Genetic Genealogy couple years ago:
    jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf

    .....Ok, you obviously know your stuff, compared to an Amateur history buff such as I :o But are we off topic here?


  • #239
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Farcheal wrote: »
    .....Ok, you obviously know your stuff, compared to an Amateur history buff such as I :o But are we off topic here?

    Well it connects in. On male line lineages it appears that there has been mass replacement compared to what would have been here in Mesolithic (Stone age hunter-gathers) era which would have been first settlers in Ireland from about 10k years ago (8k BC). Now to point out the Y-Chromosome is just 2% of a man's genome. It is passed only from father to son. As a result of your 16 great-great-great-grandfathers you only carry the Y-Chromsome of 1 (Direct male line)

    The oldest known ancient-DNA remains that are R1b+ only date from 3,000 years ago and were found in the Liechtenstein cave in Germany. Likewise the vast bulk of ancient-DNA from neolithic sites are from different Y-Haplogroups such as I* and G* (The Iceman Ötzi belonged to Haplogroup G2a4).

    R1b and it's "brother" R1a is associated with Indo-European languages. R1b* seems more associated with modern Centum languges (Celtic, Italic, Germanic) whereas R1a is more associated with Satem languages (Slavic, Indic, Iranic, Baltic etc.)

    If travellers were indeed a "pre-Celtic" surviving population. Then you would expect that their Y-DNA might have higher amounts of non R1b (particulary R1b-L21) in it. For example Haplogroup I2* appears to be quite ancient in Ireland, likewise Haplogroup E in Ireland could be connected to arrival of agriculture.


  • #240
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Well it connects in. On male line lineages it appears that there has been mass replacement compared to what would have been here in Mesolithic (Stone age hunter-gathers) era which would have been first settlers in Ireland from about 10k years ago (8k BC). Now to point out the Y-Chromosome is just 2% of a man's genome. It is passed only from father to son. As a result of your 16 great-great-great-grandfathers you only carry the Y-Chromsome of 1 (Direct male line)

    The oldest known ancient-DNA remains that are R1b+ only date from 3,000 years ago and were found in the Liechtenstein cave in Germany. Likewise the vast bulk of ancient-DNA from neolithic sites are from different Y-Haplogroups such as I* and G* (The Iceman Ötzi belonged to Haplogroup G2a4).

    R1b and it's "brother" R1a is associated with Indo-European languages. R1b* seems more associated with modern Centum languges (Celtic, Italic, Germanic) whereas R1a is more associated with Satem languages (Slavic, Indic, Iranic, Baltic etc.)

    If travellers were indeed a "pre-Celtic" surviving population. Then you would expect that their Y-DNA might have higher amounts of non R1b (particulary R1b-L21) in it. For example Haplogroup I2* appears to be quite ancient in Ireland, likewise Haplogroup E in Ireland could be connected to arrival of agriculture.
    Forgive my total ignorance (I find it difficult to get my head around this material :o) but do travellers exhibit any differences to the wider Irish population - do they have traces of Haplogroup 12* or E or any pre Celtic markers?


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  • #241
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    slowburner wrote: »
    Forgive my total ignorance (I find it difficult to get my head around this material :o) but do travellers exhibit any differences to the wider Irish population - do they have traces of Haplogroup 12* or E or any pre Celtic markers?

    Well the problem is that we probably don't have enough samples. Before the "Blood of the travellers" program I don't think there had been any genetic testing research involving Irish Travellers. The general implication was that they in general matched the "settled community". Here's one high level sample I've come across of Irish male haplogroups
    • I1: 7%
    • I2* + I2a: 2%
    • I2b: 4%
    • R1a: 3%
    • R1b: 79%
    • G: 1%
    • J2: 1.5%
    • J* + J1: 0%
    • E1b1b: 2%
    • T: 0%
    • Q: 0%
    • N: 0%

    that's taken from here: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

    Haplogroup R1a is often associated with Vikings in an Irish context (it's quite common in scandinavia). Haplgroup I1* is associated with Germanic Europe so could be connected to both Vikings and English.

    There was a study done on Haplogroup R1b distrubition in Europe there recently for the "Royal Society". They had a total of 476 Irish samples in it. The R1b breakdown was following:

    R1b-L11+ = 87.61% -- includes all subclades

    L11 is the first marker in the tree above. (image in previous post) They further broke it down by testing for some of the main subclades markers such as U106, P312, U152, L21 etc. The breakdown for Ireland was following
    • P312* (negative for L21, U152): 8.40%
    • L21+ (ergo P312+): 70.59%
    • U152+ (ergo P312+, L21-): 2.31%
    • U106+ (ergo P312-): 5.25%
    • L11* (L11+ but U106-, P312-): 1.05%

    All the P312+ came to: 81.30% (inclusive of L21 and U152) this clade is most prevalent in parts of Europe that was once either Italic or Celtic speaking (Though it also shows up in scandinavian coast in it's subclade L238). It's brother clade U106 has an association with Germanic speakers. As does Haplogroup I1*


  • #242
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    mikhail wrote: »
    , the Dutch and the Swedish retain their own languages in spite of extremely high levels of English literacy), the claim that the native Irish did so is a big one. I doubt archaeologists are arguing in a vacuum; do you know of a neat summary of the argument anywhere?

    Add Norwegians and Danes to that list, please. Both are countries with small populations who retain their own version of the same basic Germanic language. Nevertheless, the chances of meeting a native of either county who does not speak English is slight.

    tac


  • #243
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Enkidu wrote: »
    The Welsh call their language Cymraeg.

    Not a million miles away from Gomeraeg, you must admit.

    BTW, modern Hungarians firmly believe that their language, Mágyár, is derived from ancient Scythian...

    tac


  • #244
    tac foley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Johnmb wrote: »
    Scotland and Wales also have little mixing, and England, while it has more than us, has surprisingly little as well when you consider how many times they've been invaded and conquered.

    You make it seem as though the invasion and conquest of the whole of mainland Great Britain was a weekly event.

    44AD - the Romans invaded the southern end of Britanno-Celtic Britain. In spite of rumours to the contrary, what later became known as Britannia Major was not instantly pacified and Romanised - indeed, it took more than a hundred years to do it.

    Then, around 440AD, the Romans that WERE Romans left. Leaving an extremely mixed-up 'native population' of British, part-British [from intermarrying of Roman soldiers from all over the Empire who chose to settle down in Britain] and Romano-British [those who were either Romanised by pursuasion, or were the off-spring of native Italian Romans of pure Mediterranean stock].

    Meanswhile, to escape the marauding Scandinavians, sometime between 500AD and 600AD, a Northern Irish tribe [the Scottii] invaded the top end of Britain, supplanting the native population [the so-called Picts] of that area, and settled, giving it the name Scotland, and brought their language with them.

    Thereafter, down below, there were numerous incursions between 400 and 800 or so, when there were no 'real' British left, apart from those in Wales. All the invaders at that time did was to in invade their own pre-planted populations. This 'conquest' was much more of a gradual infiltration of people and their way of life and introduction of language. Only in Wales is there a recognisably Brythonic language still spoken.

    Then the very last time, in 1066 by the Normans, themselves only a couple of generations after colonising Northern France from Scandinavia, and most certainly NOT French, except by accepting the language.

    In this event, Scotland was a separate country and not included, and Wales, notionally a separate country, needed almost 300 more years of 'pacification' before it became, grudgingly, under English rule.

    tac


  • #245
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    tomasocarthaigh wrote: »
    There is a site outside of Kilbeggan in Westmeath that is supposed to be more important than Tara... cant remeber its name now...

    It's called Uisneach. Its a couple of miles west of Loughnavalley in Westmeath. It's just off the road between Mullingar and Athlone


  • #246
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    tac foley wrote: »
    Not a million miles away from Gomeraeg, you must admit.
    If you here them both pronounced correctly in their original languages, they're pretty far from each other. Secondly, I'm sure if you take any language's name for itself, it will probably sound like something out of some mythology.
    tac foley wrote: »
    BTW, modern Hungarians firmly believe that their language, Mágyár, is derived from ancient Scythian...
    It derives from Proto-Finno-Ugric.


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  • #247
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Farcheal wrote: »
    If you look at the historical evidence, ot makes sense, Irish scottish and manx are Giodlic langiages I believe the originate fromi Galician a language in north westwrn spain. However Wales, Brittany and maybe Cornwall were Brythonic. so was England but it was changed due to invasion. Scottish was Pictish umtil Dal raita or the scoti took over from Ireland. It seems as if Gaelic culture comes from celtic iberians, whilst brythonic from brittany, basically 2 surving isolated celt groups.

    But not all of scotland was in the kingdom of dalriada. Irish people have this obsession of saying that they brought scottish culture about (which they did partially) but irish people are not wholly responsible for the development of scotland. They might have brought the language to north western scotland but their kingdom hardly covered the whole of scotland. It is always forgotten that england is right beside scotland and is actually attached to scotland so in any event they would've had their influence aswell. Infact when we look at dna results from east scotland we see alot of scandavian influence. So really the only irish influence is in the west.


  • #248
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    owenc wrote: »
    But not all of scotland was in the kingdom of dalriada. Irish people have this obsession of saying that they brought scottish culture about (which they did partially) but irish people are not wholly responsible for the development of scotland. They might have brought the language to north western scotland but their kingdom hardly covered the whole of scotland. It is always forgotten that england is right beside scotland and is actually attached to scotland so in any event they would've had their influence aswell. Infact when we look at dna results from east scotland we see alot of scandavian influence. So really the only irish influence is in the west.

    obsession? please, stick to facts without making generalisations


  • #249
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    It's considerably more complex then that tbh, you see plenty of Scandinavian influence in Western Scotland as well particulary as they mostly Gaelicised (Like Normas in Ireland). thus you see that in Irish we call the Hebrides (Stronghold of Gàidhlig) Innse Gall (The islands of the foreigns).

    At it's peak in the 12th century most of modern day scotland was Gaelic speaking. For example here is a map showing the linguistic boundaries in the 14th century.

    500px-Languages_of_Scotland_1400_AD.svg.png

    At this stage the name Scots applied to Gaelic where'as what we now call "Scots" was called Inglis. It's expansion had started with Burgh creation thus the "outposts" in North East. Likewise it expanded into the area that were historically "British speaking" (Cumbrian -- related to Welsh) which is what the Kingdom of Strathcylde had been up until it's absorption by the Kingdom of Scotland in the 11th/12th centuries. Before then it had been limited specifically to the South-East in area around Edinburgh/Lothian/Borders which had historically been part of the Anglian kingdom of Northumbria until it to was conqueored by the Kingdom of Scotland.

    The actual entity the Kingdom of Scotland was a Gaelic entity at it's creation (Kingdom of Alba) the last scottish King to speak Gaelic I believe was James IV in the mid 15th century. Obviously with the spread of feudalism and the arrival of Scot-Normans (invited in by monarchy) you saw a spread of English, particulary through the process of Burgh creation which was sponsored by the Scottish monarchy.


  • #250
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Yes but in general scottish people and irish people are two different groups. I'm sick to the bone teeth of hearing "oh but scottish people are from Ireland" actually no they are not, it is a well known fact scotland was colonised by english and Scandinavian people.


  • #251
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    owenc wrote: »
    Yes but in general scottish people and irish people are two different groups. I'm sick to the bone teeth of hearing "oh but scottish people are from Ireland" actually no they are not, it is a well known fact scotland was colonised by english and Scandinavian people.

    Again english input is specifically limited to South-East Scotland. The Scandinanvian input is calculated at up to about 20% of male lineages. The bulk of input is actually from native "British" (Brythonic celtic --related to Welsh/Cornish).

    Here's a head-turner for you, more then likely the Irish entered Ireland via South-West Scotland. Both Ireland and all of Britain were Insular Celtic speaking at least 2,500 years ago. For example lineage attached to the Uí Néill dynasty in Ireland is also heavily found in Lowland Scotland. More then likely it originated there and migrated into Ireland about 2,000 years ago.

    Anyways if you take a sample populations from Dublin, Aberdeen and SE England and do a plot of the "Principle component analysis" of there genetics you see that unsurprising the Scots cluster in the middle between the Irish and the English. The implication is that they received genetic input from both.

    pca-britain.jpg

    Population structure and genome-wide patterns of variation in Ireland and Britain

    Here's a reference to an academic paper published in the European Journal of Human Genetics specifically about that:
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n11/abs/ejhg201087a.html
    Abstract
    Located off the northwestern coast of the European mainland, Britain and Ireland were among the last regions of Europe to be colonized by modern humans after the last glacial maximum. Further, the geographical location of Britain, and in particular of Ireland, is such that the impact of historical migration has been minimal. Genetic diversity studies applying the Y chromosome and mitochondrial systems have indicated reduced diversity and an increased population structure across Britain and Ireland relative to the European mainland. Such characteristics would have implications for genetic mapping studies of complex disease. We set out to further our understanding of the genetic architecture of the region from the perspective of (i) population structure, (ii) linkage disequilibrium (LD), (iii) homozygosity and (iv) haplotype diversity (HD). Analysis was conducted on 3654 individuals from Ireland, Britain (with regional sampling in Scotland), Bulgaria, Portugal, Sweden and the Utah HapMap collection. Our results indicate a subtle but clear genetic structure across Britain and Ireland, although levels of structure were reduced in comparison with average cross-European structure. We observed slightly elevated levels of LD and homozygosity in the Irish population compared with neighbouring European populations. We also report on a cline of HD across Europe with greatest levels in southern populations and lowest levels in Ireland and Scotland. These results are consistent with our understanding of the population history of Europe and promote Ireland and Scotland as relatively homogenous resources for genetic mapping of rare variants.


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