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Blood of the travellers

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  • 21-05-2011 3:03pm
    #1
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭


    Good progamme on sunday night at 9.30 investigating the origins of irish travellers. Through DNA testing, they're going to investigate whether travellers emerged during the cromwellian period or the famine. I always thought the cromwellian origin was more applicable. Looking forward to it.


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    #2
    purplepanda
    Registered Users Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    They are a mixture of mostly Anglo - Celtic stock combined with an earlier migration of European traveling peoples which arrived in Ireland sometime after the fall of the Roman Empire.

    In contrast later European gypsy populations like the Romanies in Britain for example arrived on the continent from around 1200 onwards.

    My Grandfather always said many of them were the Old English who had lost their lands under Cromwell & others were the offspring of his soldiers.

    Although he didn't explain it such favourable terms :eek:


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    #3
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    i would of thought that they were somehow connected to the gaelic nobility since alot of their surnames are gaelic irish. but ya i would think some are old english also, with traveller names such as ward.
    there was a clip from the show last night on the late late and francis barrett said that irish people were semi nomadic during the th late 16th century, which is true and that it was the travellers who kept the nomadic practice alive after they lost their lands. so essentially it would suggest that all irish people were travellers during that time. the only difference nowadays would seem that we were the only ones who eventually settled!


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    #4
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    DNA testing won't be able to determine if they arose during the cromwellian era or the famine. What it will show is do they share a similar male or female direct lineage with the rest of irish males.
    The Roma are descended from people in India (the Northern region I think).
    I read somewhere that Francie Barret and Ward man were on the late late show last night and the Ward man mentioned being descended from Niall of the Nine hostages which indicates the male DNA marker M222 which is very widespread in Ireland.


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    #5
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I can't imagine there being nomads on pre-Norman times.

    It would have been hard to exist without loyalty to a local chief. There were always wars etc.

    And even in England following the Norman conquest you had a feudal system.

    Some maybe there were in influx of Roma or there were dispossessions but surviving in numbers thru the famine would have been difficult.

    Edit - tommorrow What channel


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    #6
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    i think they could determine whether they are cromwellian or famine. all they would have to do is compare the dna with irish people whio share the same surnames with irish travellers. if there is common anscestor emerging at a certain time, just say the early 17th century, then you could safely assume that travellers are a result of the cromwellian plantation.


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    #7
    Deliverance
    Registered Users Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭Deliverance


    DNA testing will only prove that they are humans with a common ancestry i.e. human beings. The program in itself is ridicoulous. Tis like asking to test the mafia to determine why they are 'italian' and criminal. It is a social issue and 'choice' that some have chosen to partake in.

    Inclusion of their kids into society as human beings with as much oppurtunity as any other person is key to education. The bottom line is they are the same as everyone else, they should get used to this and shut the **** up about being different.

    Country and western music, disney style weddings, sexism, following britney spears as an influence for their dancing is not a 'culture'. It is a bastardised pretend standing joke of a culture that is based on nothing more than letting their kids becoming influenced by TV, Hollywood and general glamour type influences.

    Culture my ass. I see more culture in a plexiglass. That is why we have people working in 'outreach' to get them out of this **** culture and into education. That is where the real work happens, it provides these kids and women with a real future over the ignorent travellor male dominated 'culture' that exists.


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    #8
    man1
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭man1


    what channel and whats the title of the programme?


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    #9
    LaBaguette
    Registered Users Posts: 189 ✭✭LaBaguette


    RTÉ 1, and same name as the thread ;)


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    #10
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Deliverance wrote: »
    DNA testing will only prove that they are humans with a common ancestry i.e. human beings. The program in itself is ridicoulous. Tis like asking to test the mafia to determine why they are 'italian' and criminal. It is a social issue and 'choice' that some have chosen to partake in.

    Inclusion of their kids into society as human beings with as much oppurtunity as any other person is key to education. The bottom line is they are the same as everyone else, they should get used to this and shut the **** up about being different.

    Country and western music, disney style weddings, sexism, following britney spears as an influence for their dancing is not a 'culture'. It is a bastardised pretend standing joke of a culture that is based on nothing more than letting their kids becoming influenced by TV, Hollywood and general glamour type influences.

    Culture my ass. I see more culture in a plexiglass. That is why we have people working in 'outreach' to get them out of this **** culture and into education. That is where the real work happens, it provides these kids and women with a real future over the ignorent travellor male dominated 'culture' that exists.
    " Inclusion of their kids into society as human beings with as much oppurtunity as any other person is key to education. "
    Quite clearly this 'tax payer' doesn't believe that Travellers and their children are ' human beings ' to begin with - and that people should treat them with rerpect that they would think they derserve and would expect for their Mammy and Daddy and their family.

    The most discriminated community in Ireland are the people of the Travelling community, as good and decent - with a few exceptions - a people you could meet. I know as through life I had the good fortune to befriend a few of them and more honourable and decent people despite the cards that life has dealt them you couldn't meet. I would honestly say that an Asian or African person wouldn't face the discrimination that a Traveller, male or female gets. And with a woman it makes it far worse, that they should be mistreated in my opinion. A young traveller girl whose family settles down and goes to school and works part time etc is still regarded as "an easy thing" or a " slut " regardless and doubtless our humane friend has ro say " I'm all for travellers intigrating into the community - but not beside me Ha, Ha, Ha........ " And then would condemns a someone as ' racist ' who posts on the web about Paki's, Jews, N word etc

    I have witnessed what I call a ' Jerry McCabe ' - a Free State Special Branch thug kicking - several times - a traveller woman in the behind in front of her children........ "Jus for an auld laff" as superhero Jerry McCabe and his type of Free State scumbag would say.


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    #11
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    " Inclusion of their kids into society as human beings with as much oppurtunity as any other person is key to education. "
    Quite clearly this 'tax payer' doesn't believe that Travellers and their children are ' human beings ' to begin with - and if people could treat them with rerpect that they would think they derserve and would expect for their Mammy and Daddy and their family.

    The most discriminated community in Ireland is the people of the Travelling community, as good and decent - with a few exceptions - a people you could meet. I know as through life I had the good fortune to befriend a few of them. I would honestly say that an Asian or African person wouldn't face the discrimination that a Traveller, male or female, and with a woman it makes it far worse, should be mistreated. But doubtless to the Fine Galer/West Brit their not "human beings "

    I have witnessed what I call a ' Jerry McCabe ' - a Free State Special Branch thug kicking - several times - a traveller woman in the behind in front of her children........ "Jus for an auld laff" as superhero Jerry McCabe and his type of Free State scumbag would say.

    Absolute bullsh1t in this post.:rolleyes:


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    #12
    digzy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭digzy


    who cares.........

    Wonder if it'll explain their genetic pre-disposition to being dole spongers and thieves.:rolleyes:

    And before the inevitable condemnation i know i'm being rude, racist.... but thats how most people in rural ireland look upon them who have the mis-fortune to come across them.


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    #13
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Absolute bullsh1t in this post.:rolleyes:
    As Brendan Beehan said about the Free State super heros like Jerry McCabe - they coax them down from the Kerry mountains with raw meet.

    The way they treated the travelling people a decade or two ago, they would have given the red neck cops in Alabama in the 60's a good run for their money.


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    #14
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    As Brendan Beehan said about the Free State super heros like Jerry McCabe - they coax them down from the Kerry mountains with raw meet.

    The way they treated the travelling people a decade or two ago, they would have given the red neck cops in Alabama in the 60's a good run for their money.
    That post and the previous one of yours was a new low - even for you. The man was murdered in the line of duty. Shame on you. Shame on you.


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    #15
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    digzy wrote: »
    who cares.........

    Wonder if it'll explain their genetic pre-disposition to being dole spongers and thieves.:rolleyes:

    And before the inevitable condemnation i know i'm being rude, racist.... but thats how most people in rural ireland look upon them who have the mis-fortune to come across them.
    Ahhh, don't worry digzy, even though most people would know it's discriminatory, say what you like on boards.ie - so long as it's not about queers......... and little Israel......


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    #16
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Why don't you have a lie-down Patsy, you're tired.


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    #17
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Gonna be a good show, I think travellers are just refugees who never settled down, Some travellers are interbreed Most aren't. We only notice a traveller when they fit the stereotype We dont even notice the rest as there is no real difference between us. Its knackers give all travellers a bad name and all travellers aren't knackers.


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    #18
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    tbh wrote: »
    That post and the previous one of yours was a new low - even for you. The man was murdered in the line of duty. Shame on you. Shame on you.
    You should read a book called Round Up the Usual Suspetcs by Gene Kerrigan. The Free State thugs murdered at least a dozen people in custody " in the line of duty "-. And of course harrassing, physically and verbally abusing Travellers was one of their pet ' joys '.

    "Jus for an auld laff " as Jerry McCabe and his type would have said.

    x12677.jpg


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    #19
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    You should read a book called Round Up the Usual Suspetcs by Gene Kerrigan. The Free State thugs murdered at least a dozen people in custody " in the line of duty "-. And of course harrassing, physically and verbally abusing Travellers was one of their pet ' joys '.

    "Jus for an auld laff " as Jerry McCabe and his type would have said.
    Why do you keep bringing Jerry McCabe into this? Do you actually realise it is possible to be sympathetic to the challenges faced by members of the travelling community, as well as condemning the thugs who murdered Jerry McCabe?

    Gerry McCabe was killed over some guys trying to rob a post office, not trying to protect or defend the travelling community.


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    #20
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    Ahhh, don't worry digzy, even though most people would know it's discriminatory, say what you like on boards.ie - so long as it's not about queers......... and little Israel......

    Patsy you are offering your support by dissing a dead guy Jerry McCabe in doing it - nice.

    And quoting an authority like Brendan Behan who thru his own stupidity nearly got himself killed/executed.


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    #21
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    As Brendan Beehan said about the Free State super heros like Jerry McCabe - they coax them down from the Kerry mountains with raw meet.

    The way they treated the travelling people a decade or two ago, they would have given the red neck cops in Alabama in the 60's a good run for their money.

    More venomous vitriolic irrelevant crap in this post.

    If you're going to quote the late great Brendan Behan, you could at least spell his name correctly.


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    #22
    Cat Melodeon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭Cat Melodeon


    I'm enjoying this show, it's one of the most sympathetic portrayals of normal Traveller life I've yet seen on RTE. A welcome break from the over-the-top sesnsationalism of Big Fat Gysy Weddings and it's ilk.


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    #23
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Cat Melodeon wrote: »
    I'm enjoying this show, it's one of the most sympathetic portrayals of normal Traveller life I've yet seen on RTE. A welcome break from the over-the-top sesnsationalism of Big Fat Gysy Weddings and it's ilk.

    It is actually - its got me thinking of the wrens of the Curragh and what happened to them

    http://www.curragh.info/articles/wrens.htm


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    #24
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    It will be interesting to see the outcome but here is the percieved wisdom. There does seem to be a bit more research than the filmakers suggest.


    Irish Travellers are typical Gaels... historically septs/clans who lost
    land in the late 1500s and 1600s, but also a element of Gaels who predate
    those events who lived as travelling metal smiths. Ditto with Scottish
    Travellers. Have both Irish and Scottish ones were I live (the US South).

    Romany Gypsies quite different ethnically. Both Gaelic and Romany are often
    called 'gypsies.' though of course the Irish and Scottish ones are not real
    Gypsies.... that a slang phrase used to describe all who live 'as gypsies,'
    i.e. on the road.

    The Gaelic ones are called are called The Walking People in Gaelic....
    typical Celt in DNA.




    I don't recall any studies specifically on the Y chromosome, but studies of
    other genetic markers show they are basically similar to the general population
    of Ireland. There's a short section in John Relethford's chapter about
    Ireland in his recent book "Reflections of our Past."

    Ann Turner - GENEALOGY-DNA List Administrator

    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2003-10/1066571172

    University of Limerick

    http://www.ul.ie/~library/travellers/

    Some other UK links


    http://website.lineone.net/~rtfhs/links.html

    http://www.website-toplist.com/Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Society_and_Culture/Genealogy/Romani_and_Traveller/


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    #25
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    There are quite a few reports from pre cromwell times of the nomadic nature of the irish being quite the thorn in the side of the english. Richard Bingham wrote in several letters on it. My better half is a traveller so ill be watching this with interest later on as we didnt get a chance to see it last night


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    #26
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    sensibleken wrote: »
    There are quite a few reports from pre cromwell times of the nomadic nature of the irish being quite the thorn in the side of the english. Richard Bingham wrote in several letters on it. My better half is a traveller so ill be watching this with interest later on as we didnt get a chance to see it last night

    I am doing some research on my own family . Yola & Wexford - normans who had their own language and there are still hymns used in it.

    The travellers have a language called Shelta ??

    In Trim some years back there was a guy who used do the rounds at Christmas dressed as a Pearly King -very West End of London.

    Have you a link to the Bingham letters. ???


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    #27
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    CDfm wrote: »
    I am doing some research on my own family . Yola & Wexford - normans who had their own language and there are still hymns used in it.

    The travellers have a language called Shelta ??

    In Trim some years back there was a guy who used do the rounds at Christmas dressed as a Pearly King -very West End of London.

    Have you a link to the Bingham letters. ???

    I dont have a link at the moment as i read in an old fashioned analogue format (book :D). But I'll get a reference when I get home for you.

    Theres Shelta and Gammon which are the same thing more or less and also known as the cant.


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    #28
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    sensibleken wrote: »
    I dont have a link at the moment as i read in an old fashioned analogue format (book :D). But I'll get a reference when I get home for you.

    lol :D
    Theres Shelta and Gammon which are the same thing more or less and also known as the cant.

    An aside.

    I knew a guy in England when I lived there with a real Irish accent. And circa 1995 he told me he had been born in Oxford and his family had been there for 4 generations and were Irish Travellers.

    Lots of Irish cant trace their family pre 1800 anyway but I wonder if the real info is buried in places like household accounts of the estates ,fairs, old court records and army records/accounts.

    I found some info on my family on transcriptions of notes on a missal made by a protestant clergyman in 1870 something.


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    #29
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    CDfm wrote: »
    lol :D



    An aside.

    I knew a guy in England when I lived there with a real Irish accent. And circa 1995 he told me he had been born in Oxford and his family had been there for 4 generations and were Irish Travellers.

    really? thats quite a feat. my gf has an english accent despite being able to trace back until the 1670s as thats where shes mostly lived. It does mean she suffers less discrimination although you do have to put up with a lot of anti-traveller rhetoric before politely pointing out that the person they're speaking to is a traveller
    Lots of Irish cant trace their family pre 1800 anyway but I wonder if the real info is buried in places like household accounts of the estates ,fairs, old court records and army records/accounts.

    I found some info on my family on transcriptions of notes on a missal made by a protestant clergyman in 1870 something.

    I cant get further back than the 1860's although it turns out my great great grandmother moved here from america after the civil war (I guess that makes me american-irish :) )

    Sometimes it depends on what status you faimily where. mine where very poor so couldnt spell their name or would even know what age they were so tracing them was quite difficult.


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    #30
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    DNA testing can tell you alot about human migration patterns. Each population tends to have some unique gentic features that are common to it's population as a result when you plot members they cluster together. Here's a map of Europe from genetic point of view using "Autosomal" typing:

    sobpc.jpg

    Looks remarkably like a political map doesn't it?

    Y-Chromosomal testing can be used for genealogical point of view. Ward is obviously M222+ if he possess the Northwest Irish signature (Uí Néill). This has been dated to having occurred in one man who lived about 1700-1800 years ago.

    Niall was used by the geneticists to announce this (same thing happen with Genghis). However surnames connected to the Uí Fiachra (O'Dowd, Shaughnessy) and the Uí Briúin (O'Connor, O'Rourke, O'Reilly, McDermot etc.) have all shown to be M222+ as well.

    Interesting enough the pseudo-histories claim that Niall had three half brothers, two of which were Fiachra and Brion. M222 as a result looks like it might be signature of ruling elite of "Connachta" population group in early Ireland.

    Recently enough another SNP marker called L226 was found. This is a brother clade of M222 (both are subclades of L21) that appears to mark men who bear surnames connected to the Dál gCais (O'Brien, Kennedy, MacMahon etc.)

    I myself tested positive for L21 but negative for all know subclades (M222, L226 etc.) it's been calculated that L21 first arose in a man in Western Europe about 3,700 years ago. The highest genetic variability for men carrying L21 is in France.


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    #31
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    sensibleken wrote: »
    really? thats quite a feat. my gf has an english accent despite being able to trace back until the 1670s as thats where shes mostly lived. It does mean she suffers less discrimination although you do have to put up with a lot of anti-traveller rhetoric before politely pointing out that the person they're speaking to is a traveller

    I knew the late great Ted Fossett of Fossetts Circus -a wonderful guy and descendant of Sir Edward Fossett of the Circus Dynasty.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66806910&postcount=25



    I cant get further back than the 1860's although it turns out my great great grandmother moved here from america after the civil war (I guess that makes me american-irish :) )

    So was Parnell & Oscar Wilde :pac:
    Sometimes it depends on what status you faimily where. mine where very poor so couldnt spell their name or would even know what age they were so tracing them was quite difficult.

    Sometimes a traumatic event happened and people moved etc. Say parents dying of TB etc or a family dispute. I have found one dating from 1841 and the two sides of the family still do not speak.


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