Questions on Nationalism and the right.

Canvasser · 31-07-2012 12:07pm

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

This is an interesting interpretation Shea. As a capitalist and a nationalist my gut instinct is that the reason Irish capitalists shy away from nationalism is cultural rather than out of self interest. The Cromwellian invaders took our land leaving us nothing and their descendants are present day Irish with west brit sympathies.

If the real Irish believe the Cromwellians had every right to steal our country then their poverty mentality is understandable. Those of us who have never accepted the legal claim of the Cromwellians or their descendants to our land have a different outlook. We see ourselves as being wealthy even if we are not.

Capitalism is not natural to Ireland. It was forced upon us by the British colonisers. Capitalism and pro-Britishness go together.

Sergeant · 31-07-2012 12:48pm

Canvasser wrote: »

Capitalism is not natural to Ireland. It was forced upon us by the British colonisers. Capitalism and pro-Britishness go together.

Could you share with us your vision of how Ireland would be without the oppressive yoke of capitalism around her neck? Or even elucidate on how capitalism and 'pro-Britishness' are intrinsically linked?

Canvasser · 31-07-2012 12:57pm

Sergeant wrote: »

Could you share with us your vision of how Ireland would be without the oppressive yoke of capitalism around her neck? Or even elucidate on how capitalism and 'pro-Britishness' are intrinsically linked?

It's impossible to say what Ireland would be like today if a non-capitalist power had come to dominate the world.

And as I said there was no capitalism in Ireland before it was forced upon us by the British.

Nodin · 31-07-2012 2:04pm

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

If one rejects all that is not Gaelic, Celtic and Catholic then the alliance Party are not Irish in the purest sense. Similarly, the PDs were west Brit in their perspective. Were these parties to be nationalist in their outlook they would conform to the norms of the National Right. Granted ethnic cleansing is an abomination and no right thinking person would advocate such a thing but there is certainly good and just grounds to consider a policy of cultural cleansing on the Island of Ireland. Why for example, should we preserve Georgian and Edwardian buildings when they are not part of our culture and when these buildings are already represented in England and lots of other places around the world. Similarly why waste the time of our students and the resources of our country teaching Shakespeare when the subject has no practical use in the modern world and no cultural benefit to anyone other than the English.

A bizarre advocacy for some sort of cultural taleban.

Shea O'Meara · 31-07-2012 4:09pm

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

This is an interesting interpretation Shea. As a capitalist and a nationalist my gut instinct is that the reason Irish capitalists shy away from nationalism is cultural rather than out of self interest. The Cromwellian invaders took our land leaving us nothing and their descendants are present day Irish with west brit sympathies.

If the real Irish believe the Cromwellians had every right to steal our country then their poverty mentality is understandable. Those of us who have never accepted the legal claim of the Cromwellians or their descendants to our land have a different outlook. We see ourselves as being wealthy even if we are not.

I thought we were discussing politicians not people?
Most politicians are generational inbred politicos; in it by birth and only interested in maintaining power and money. If there's no money or votes in being nationalist, they won't pipe up about it.
Culturally, everybody including loyalists know the full island of Ireland makes the country. It's geographical. To deny Ireland in it's natural state based on culture is a little silly, capitalist or no.
I've always said that if the tables were turned we'd probably be no kinder to the British than they were to us. Look at the self centered fraudsters we've had heading our nation. So I really don't think, at this point, Cromwell or whether or not we see ourselves as capitalists plays a role in our being nationalist of not. It's about current self interest. I mean anyone with any inherited wealth is living off stolen profits if you look deep enough.
I see myself as being Irish from the country Ireland and all the culture and art that comes with it, regardless of any passing British fad in parts of the North.

Hawkeye123 · 31-07-2012 7:55pm

Canvasser wrote: »

Capitalism is not natural to Ireland. It was forced upon us by the British colonisers. Capitalism and pro-Britishness go together.

There are plenty of capitalist countries which have never been invaded by the British. Even if capitalism were a British invention that in itself would not be a reason to reject it.

Every successful civilization from the Roman Empire to present day Asian tiger economies have thrived by learning from other successful nations.

Shea O'Meara · 01-08-2012 3:24pm

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

There are plenty of capitalist countries which have never been invaded by the British. Even if capitalism were a British invention that in itself would not be a reason to reject it.

Every successful civilization from the Roman Empire to present day Asian tiger economies have thrived by learning from other successful nations.

And when capitalism falls on its arse it turns to socialism for a hand out

Hawkeye123 · 01-08-2012 3:39pm

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

And when capitalism falls on its arse it turns to socialism for a hand out

Lest we forget, it is capitalists who pay for socialism in the first place. It should also be pointed out that capitalism can withstand almost anything except the incompetence of public sector bodies like our own financial regulator.

Duggys Housemate · 01-08-2012 3:49pm

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

And when capitalism falls on its arse it turns to socialism for a hand out

Lest we forget, it is capitalists who pay for socialism in the first place. It should also be pointed out that capitalism can withstand almost anything except the incompetence of public sector bodies like our own financial regulator.

Why would a perfect self-regulating system need a regulator in the first place?

Canvasser · 01-08-2012 3:56pm

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

Lest we forget, it is capitalists who pay for socialism in the first place. It should also be pointed out that capitalism can withstand almost anything except the incompetence of public sector bodies like our own financial regulator.

That doesn't even makes sense. You clearly have no idea what socialism is.

Shea O'Meara · 01-08-2012 6:50pm

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

Lest we forget, it is capitalists who pay for socialism in the first place.

It should be understood that tax in it's very nature is a socialist vehicle. It enables and supports public untilites, social care, education, health and lest we forget capitalist banking folk who can't live by their own philosophy.

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

It should also be pointed out that capitalism can withstand almost anything except the incompetence of public sector bodies like our own financial regulator.

Capitalism has and will always fail under it's own weight.
Just to point out that the financial regulator's flaw was not reigning in rampant capitalism, which in turn crushed the country for nothing more than personal greed and profit. Maybe Ireland is better off without a right wing nationalist party?

Gregor Samsa · 01-08-2012 7:22pm

Lockstep wrote: »

The link between nationalism and the left seems to mainly be a Celtic trend: Sinn Féin, Plaid Cymru, the Scottish National Party and so on.

Some of the Basque (Batasuna, Abertzaleen Batasuna, etc) and Catalan (Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya) nationalist parties identify as left wing too. As does Fatah (Palestinian Nationalists) in the Middle East. Quebec too (Bloc Québécois).

Although it's fair to say that in each of these regions, there's also right wing nationalist parties too. Which isn't the case (at a popular level at least) in the Celtic countries.

Hawkeye123 · 02-08-2012 1:07am

Canvasser wrote: »

That doesn't even makes sense. You clearly have no idea what socialism is.

Yes I do. Socialism is what capitalists pay for in their taxes. The public sector only pay pretend taxes because they get their money from the state.

Gregor Samsa · 02-08-2012 9:55am

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

Yes I do. Socialism is what capitalists pay for in their taxes. The public sector only pay pretend taxes because they get their money from the state.

Huh?

So do the thousands of employees of private sector companies in receipt of state subsidies and grants only "pretend" to pay taxes too?

Count Dooku · 02-08-2012 10:14am

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Capitalism has and will always fail under it's own weight.

At least it can support itself between crisises, while socialism will fail immediately without external support or natural resources. Sweden built socialism on Nazi gold, Norway on oil, Cuba on aid from USSR

Canvasser · 02-08-2012 10:31am

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

Yes I do. Socialism is what capitalists pay for in their taxes. The public sector only pay pretend taxes because they get their money from the state.

Socialism is about taking the factors of production into public ownership. Socialism and capitalism can not co-exist. And usually capitalists pay little or no tax. They hoard their money in offshore accounts to avoid giving back any of what they took out of society. It is PAYE workers who pay the tax. You seem to be under the misguided impression that anyone who works in the private sector is a capitalist.

Count Dooku · 02-08-2012 10:34am

Canvasser wrote: »

Socialism is about taking the factors of production into public ownership.

Any successful examples?

Duggys Housemate · 02-08-2012 10:34am

Canvasser wrote: »

Socialism is about taking the factors of production into public ownership. Socialism and capitalism can not co-exist. And usually capitalists pay little or no tax. They hoard their money in offshore accounts to avoid giving back any of what they took out of society. It is PAYE workers who pay the tax.

If we cant even agree on definitions.........

Most people would call that communism. The modern version of socialism is re-distribution.

As someone who despises Marxism and Libertarianism equally - both simple theories its amusing to find these arguments are libertarians vs communists. Where most people are centre left to centre right.

Canvasser · 02-08-2012 10:36am

Count Dooku wrote: »

At least it can support itself between crisises, while socialism will fail immediately without external support or natural resources. Sweden built socialism on Nazi gold, Norway on oil, Cuba on aid from USSR

WTF?! I think you should attempt to read a book sometime. People on this thread seem to give uncritical support to capitalism without having any idea of what it is.

Count Dooku · 02-08-2012 11:04am

Canvasser wrote: »

WTF?! I think you should attempt to read a book sometime. People on this thread seem to give uncritical support to capitalism without having any idea of what it is.

what is the reason to criticise if there is no alternative to it?

Hawkeye123 · 02-08-2012 1:21pm

phutyle wrote: »

Huh?

So do the thousands of employees of private sector companies in receipt of state subsidies and grants only "pretend" to pay taxes too?

No. They pay real taxes.

Hawkeye123 · 02-08-2012 1:35pm

Canvasser wrote: »

Socialism is about taking the factors of production into public ownership. Socialism and capitalism can not co-exist. And usually capitalists pay little or no tax. They hoard their money in offshore accounts to avoid giving back any of what they took out of society. It is PAYE workers who pay the tax. You seem to be under the misguided impression that anyone who works in the private sector is a capitalist.

In most countries there is a public and a private sector. The public sector represents socialism and of course that has to be paid for by the private sector since socialism is incapable of supporting itself. You say capitalists pay little or no tax but that applies to a tiny minority who avail of legal tax incentives. Remove those incentives and the top echelons of capitalism will avail of similar tax incentives elsewhere while thousands of Irish workers lose their jobs. Personally, I don`t begrudge tax breaks for the wealthy but then I am not of a jealous disposition.

As for hoarding money in offshore accounts, I think you will find the top paid politicians and civil servants could tell you a thing or two about that (albeit after a few pints).

Private sector workers derive their income from the private sector and they are therefore far more in tune with the real world than their public sector counterparts.

Nodin · 02-08-2012 1:43pm

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

No. They pay real taxes.

Everybody pays "real" taxes. Unless you can provide proof of two different types of taxation based on what sector a person works in and/or their ideology, I suggest you drop that line.

Hawkeye123 · 02-08-2012 1:55pm

Nodin wrote: »

Everybody pays "real" taxes. Unless you can provide proof of two different types of taxation based on what sector a person works in and/or their ideology, I suggest you drop that line.

Public sector employees are paid by the state and they "pay" PAYE back to the state. If I give you 10 euro and I take back 2 euro then I am giving you 8 euro. It is a joke to suggest public sector people pay PAYE and even if they do they should not because we have to pay interest on the money we borrow to pay them.

It would be cheaper to borrow less and just give them 100% of smaller salaries. It is also more efficient not to give the public sector money and then take it back (albeit on paper) because that just creates a lot of unnecessary paperwork for civil servants we don`t really need.

Nodin · 02-08-2012 2:17pm

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

Public sector employees are paid by the state and they "pay" PAYE back to the state. If I give you 10 euro and I take back 2 euro then I am giving you 8 euro. It is a joke to suggest public sector people pay PAYE and even if they do they should not because we have to pay interest on the money we borrow to pay them.

It would be cheaper to borrow less and just give them 100% of smaller salaries. It is also more efficient not to give the public sector money and then take it back (albeit on paper) because that just creates a lot of unnecessary paperwork for civil servants we don`t really need.

A rather shallow reading of the whole arrangement.

I note you're now arguing for a two tier tax system.

"even if they do" - you've proof of PAYE avoidance in the public sector? Lets see it please.

Hawkeye123 · 03-08-2012 1:09am

Nodin wrote: »

A rather shallow reading of the whole arrangement.

I note you're now arguing for a two tier tax system.

"even if they do" - you've proof of PAYE avoidance in the public sector? Lets see it please.

You are assuming the Public sector people pay PAYE in the first place. I repeat my former reason why that does not happen: If I give you 10 euro and then take back 2, then I am giving you 8 euro. Therefore the public sector people only pay pretend taxes.

When I say "even if they do pay PAYE..." I am not suggesting that they are trying to avail of tax avoidance loopholes or attempt tax evasion tactics for that matter. When I say "even if the do pay ..." I am presupposing that the tax is actually added to and then withdrawn from the salaries of the public sector employees. I then follow by explaining that this procedure is both wasteful and inefficient.

I do not know why you think I am arguing for a two tier tax system. On the contrary, I believe there should be only one tax band. Higher tax bands are unfair to high earners.

Nodin · 03-08-2012 1:50am

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

You are assuming the Public sector people pay PAYE in the first place. I repeat my former reason why that does not happen: If I give you 10 euro and then take back 2, then I am giving you 8 euro. Therefore the public sector people only pay pretend taxes..

No, they pay taxes the same way every other PAYE worker does.

K-9 · 03-08-2012 2:03am

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

You are assuming the Public sector people pay PAYE in the first place. I repeat my former reason why that does not happen: If I give you 10 euro and then take back 2, then I am giving you 8 euro. Therefore the public sector people only pay pretend taxes.

They very much pay taxes, that isn't pretend, monopoly money. They work, pay taxes, PRSI, pension levies and USC, get tax refunds, pay tax under payments.

At this stage I really don't know what this thread is about, it touchs so many topics. A blog or Facebook maybe more ideal if you just want to put random thoughts out there.

Questions on Nationalism and the right.

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