Should the Irish Education system be reformed

Riddle101 · 26-05-2009 2:48am #1

I think the Irish education system should change, because I feel there is a lot of potential being wasted in todays youths. Now I know our education system is one of the best in Europe and we should be lucky but I just think there should be more done, so I took the liberty of coming up with a few ideas in how they could reform it.

(1)Bring in a new method of teaching Irish- This is a subject i'm sure many will agree on because Irish is a subect that we all have great interest in but can't seem to learn it well, and I for one blame most of it on the way it is taught in schools. I hate the fact that I don't really know my own country's native lanaguage because i feel like i'm handicapped or something. It also embarrasses me when i'm in another country and I see how other countries speak their language perfect and I can't even say a proper sentence in my own. Now I know there are ways of dealing with that, there are places like the Gaeltacht and all, but the problem with those places is, is that they're usually held in the summer where as the school year last most of the year. I think schools should really try to encourage it more. Maybe put little emphasis on teaching Irish stories and poems and more on how to understand it.

(2)More subjects that deal with the outside world- When I was in school the main subjects were English, Irish, Maths and 4 other subjects that we chose from a list of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Business, Economics, Accounting, History, Geography, Engineering, Wood Work, Art, Music and a Language. Now they're all god, but I think it would be good if we could have subjects that teach about things to allow people to understand thing outside. Better yet a subject that isn't on the leaving cert, and just a normal subject where you sit down and learn thing in the outside world. Sort of like how Religon isn't really a leaving cert subject. A subject that teaches things like Politics, Current Affairs, Philosphy and maybe even a bit of psychology. I know the last two aren't really nessesary for the outside world but I think they'd be good to have.

(3)Bring in Scholarships- In America, a person who does a sport in High school can earn a scholarship to a University, even if he's not the standard IQ they're looking for. I think Irish education kind've descriminates against people who aren't as smart as people who get into colleges like Trinity or UCD and because of that there a lot of guys who don't get the chance at life, the way college students do and that I think is where the wasted talent goes. Usually those guys are turned away from colleges and have to find another way of getting jobs. Some usually go into trades or apprenticeships, others might go into the Army or the Gardai. But I think scholarships should be brought in to give people the chance to have a new way of getting into a college, and it might also encourage more people to play sports.

(4)Maths should not really be an option for getting into College. This is a tricky subject becuase this is where I and a lot of people fall down. I was good at most of my subjects, but Maths was my worst subject in school, I hated it and because I am bad at Maths, it prevents me from getting into a decent college, so I have to go the long way and do Third Level colleges in order to get into a degree course in a decent college. Not that i'm saying third level colleges aren't decent, it I'm talking about Universities and Institutes. Maths is sort of nessesary for getting into most college, and it stops a lot of people who are weak at Maths but good at everything else from getting in. Of course i'm sure if Maths was disregaurded then most people wouldn't have a problem getting into college, but I'm just saying that college shoudl abolish this rule.

Anyway that's some of the ideas I had, there's more but it's late. Anyway so what do you think. What's you're opinion on the Irish education system, and does it need to be reformed. Also you could bring your own ideas of how to reform it as well.

alan4cult · 26-05-2009 2:58am

I'm happy with it as long as those priests keep well away.

zonEEE · 26-05-2009 2:59am

Riddle101 wrote: »

(2)More subjects that deal with the outside world- When I was in school the main subjects were English, Irish, Maths and 4 other subjects that we chose from a list of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Business, Economics, Accounting, History, Geography, Engineering, Wood Work, Art, Music and a Language. Now they're all god, but I think it would be good if we could have subjects that teach about things to allow people to understand thing outside. Better yet a subject that isn't on the leaving cert, and just a normal subject where you sit down and learn thing in the outside world. Sort of like how Religon isn't really a leaving cert subject. A subject that teaches things like Politics, Current Affairs, Philosphy and maybe even a bit of psychology. I know the last two aren't really nessesary for the outside world but I think they'd be good to have.

How isn't religion not really a leaving cert subject? And also religion isnt much about the catholic church. Theres very little to do with the church really. Religion covers philosophy, morals, all world religions, cultures and customes, science(creation) etc

banquo · 26-05-2009 3:00am

I agree with everything.

I'd also bring in english writing - as opposed to the present english lc - with a mix of argument and rhetoric. just my pet subjects of interest, but they also have real practical application. english composition would be closer to journalism, as in ''make the paragraph the unit of composition'', and little tricks about structure and style. so many english compositions read like the products of children.

ironically, this keyboard won't do caps.

SRFC90 · 26-05-2009 3:07am

Noh whey?

Rented Mule · 26-05-2009 5:16am

I think that the education process should constantly be reevaluated and reinvented, but just a few comments on the OP recommendations.

I can't comment on how Irish is being taught in this country, but if Des Bishop can go on holidays in Connemara for 11 months and come back with a working understanding and use of the language, the entire way the language is taught should be reevaluated.

In regards to 'scholarships in America'. These are given out to athletes who do have to meet the basic requirements to get into the University. They may always on par with the top of the class, but the rest of the class aren't a part of a multi-billion dollar industry.

The NCAA Division I schools have a few revenue generating sports that foot the bill for the rest of the athletic programs/facilities/scholarships. In these instances, a 7' kid who can hit the 18 foot jumper is going to do more for the schools profile in the NCAA tournament than some other kid who may cure cancer in the lab. Sad, but true.

Maths are the one true universal language, moreso than any other spoken language. It is something that should encouraged and nurtured in students. The way it is taught should probably be reinvented (much like what you have said about the Irish language) across the board.

The two best math teachers that I have ever had were actually history and english teachers who were filling a void in the staff. They were storytellers. They were able to show me the applications of what we were learning moreso than anything else. They need to know how they are going to use ths in life in ways other than solving for 'x'.

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 26-05-2009 5:32am

I think there should be a basic psychology and sociology class, let students get inside their own heads a bit.
Maybe raise a more self-aware, emotionally healthy generation... rather than the hordes of substance-abusing, joy-riding, hard lads the system has churned out so far.

As wonderful as it is to be able to impress people abroad with your grasp of the Irish language, it's trivial compared to the kind of knowledge you could be arming people with in the same amount of class-time.
Really, the amount of educational time (both in-class and homework) that's píssed away on rose-tinted shíte like Irish is disgusting to me.

Mr.Lizard · 26-05-2009 6:10am

No I think the primary and secondary nannys of this country are doing a fine job minding our children until they are old enough to leave home and fend for themselves.

OP, I think you're under the misapprehension that children are in school to learn?

4zn76tysfajdxp · 26-05-2009 6:10am

op wut u tlkin abut lol?

spurious · 26-05-2009 6:18am

AFAIK, all of the points mentioned by the OP are to a large extent either in place already or underway.

banquo · 26-05-2009 6:47am

regarding needing maths to get into college: you only need pass level, which is so damned easy you'd be an idiot not to pass it. all the other subjects require regurgitation en-masse with little understanding (bar languages) so i'm glad there's something that requires one to demonstrate some level of understanding before getting into college.

af_thefragile · 26-05-2009 8:16am

Yes, the government shouldn't get involved in it in the first place!

Hrududu · 26-05-2009 9:38am

(3)Bring in Scholarships- In America, a person who does a sport in High school can earn a scholarship to a University, even if he's not the standard IQ they're looking for. I think Irish education kind've descriminates against people who aren't as smart as people who get into colleges like Trinity or UCD and because of that there a lot of guys who don't get the chance at life, the way college students do and that I think is where the wasted talent goes. Usually those guys are turned away from colleges and have to find another way of getting jobs. Some usually go into trades or apprenticeships, others might go into the Army or the Gardai. But I think scholarships should be brought in to give people the chance to have a new way of getting into a college, and it might also encourage more people to play sports.

Wouldn't this mean someone could do poorly in the LC, but because they can kick a ball they'd take the place from someone who worked hard to get a good LC? If you can't get into university by using your brain then how will you be able to cope with the workload once you get there?

I agree with the Irish point though. And the real life stuff. There used to be a Civics class in my school but they stopped doing it before I got there. I think that covered a lot of things from politics to current events etc.

mercuroman · 26-05-2009 10:08am

Riddle101 wrote: »

(4)Maths should not really be an option for getting into College. This is a tricky subject becuase this is where I and a lot of people fall down. I was good at most of my subjects, but Maths was my worst subject in school, I hated it and because I am bad at Maths, it prevents me from getting into a decent college, so I have to go the long way and do Third Level colleges in order to get into a degree course in a decent college. Not that i'm saying third level colleges aren't decent, it I'm talking about Universities and Institutes. Maths is sort of nessesary for getting into most college, and it stops a lot of people who are weak at Maths but good at everything else from getting in. Of course i'm sure if Maths was disregaurded then most people wouldn't have a problem getting into college, but I'm just saying that college shoudl abolish this rule.

WHAT? How did this prevent you getting into a good college? I'm good at maths - why should I lose out?

Mr.Lizard · 26-05-2009 10:19am

I think Maths is just one of those subjects you can't force-feed into stupid or average students. That's why you have all these people going on about how 'good' they are at everything else yet poor at maths. It's just that it's the kind of subject that reveals what you're really made of.

General Zod · 26-05-2009 10:32am

strongr wrote: »

Religion covers philosophy, morals, all world religions, cultures and customes, science(creation) etc

Creationism isn't science.

liah · 26-05-2009 11:34am

I think Maths is just one of those subjects you can't force-feed into stupid or average students. That's why you have all these people going on about how 'good' they are at everything else yet poor at maths. It's just that it's the kind of subject that reveals what you're really made of.

That is an incredibly arrogant statement. Some absolutely brilliant people can be horrible at math, just as some absolutely brilliant people can be horrible in english or art or philosophy or science. Every individual has their strengths or weaknesses. Just because they're bad at one subject doesn't make them "stupid" or "average"-- in fact that whole idea is utterly, horribly wrong.

Mr.Lizard · 26-05-2009 11:41am

liah wrote: »

That is an incredibly arrogant statement. Some absolutely brilliant people can be horrible at math, just as some absolutely brilliant people can be horrible in english or art or philosophy or science. Every individual has their strengths or weaknesses. Just because they're bad at one subject doesn't make them "stupid" or "average"-- in fact that whole idea is utterly, horribly wrong.

Not good at maths eh?

baglady · 26-05-2009 11:47am

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

It's just that it's the kind of subject that reveals what you're really made of.

what the hell does that even mean??

mathie · 26-05-2009 11:48am

"Should the Irish Education system be reformed" is missing a question mark.

OP you should be reformed.

liah · 26-05-2009 11:56am

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

Not good at maths eh?

I was fine at maths. Excelled in advanced algebra. My point is your statement is just plain wrong and probably one of the more arrogant things I've read on boards.

#15 · 26-05-2009 12:26pm

Hi, some interesting ideas there.

Riddle101 wrote: »

(1)Bring in a new method of teaching Irish- This is a subject i'm sure many will agree on because Irish is a subect that we all have great interest in but can't seem to learn it well, and I for one blame most of it on the way it is taught in schools. I hate the fact that I don't really know my own country's native lanaguage because i feel like i'm handicapped or something. It also embarrasses me when i'm in another country and I see how other countries speak their language perfect and I can't even say a proper sentence in my own. Now I know there are ways of dealing with that, there are places like the Gaeltacht and all, but the problem with those places is, is that they're usually held in the summer where as the school year last most of the year. I think schools should really try to encourage it more. Maybe put little emphasis on teaching Irish stories and poems and more on how to understand it.

The emphasis needs to be on speaking, speaking, speaking. If we reach a situation where we have enough confident speakers of Gaeilge, everything else should follow after that. Literature etc is a nice idea, but pointless without fluency in the language.
It will take true courage to reform the way Gaeilge is taught (the primary curriculum is definitely on the right track, if it is taught properly).
The second thing is that Gaeilge can not exist in the bubble of education.
People need to start using it in a real life context. I'm learning German at the minute, not out of a book, but from my GF. I use German social networking sites, other websites, talk to German friends, use things in German etc etc. I would say I make mistakes 80% of the time, but I'm learning as I go. People need to get over their fears of speaking Irish - who cares if we make mistakes, we just need to practice. We will erase the mistakes eventually.
Putting the blame on the education sector is not seeing the full picture.

(2)More subjects that deal with the outside world- When I was in school the main subjects were English, Irish, Maths and 4 other subjects that we chose from a list of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Business, Economics, Accounting, History, Geography, Engineering, Wood Work, Art, Music and a Language. Now they're all god, but I think it would be good if we could have subjects that teach about things to allow people to understand thing outside. Better yet a subject that isn't on the leaving cert, and just a normal subject where you sit down and learn thing in the outside world. Sort of like how Religon isn't really a leaving cert subject. A subject that teaches things like Politics, Current Affairs, Philosphy and maybe even a bit of psychology. I know the last two aren't really nessesary for the outside world but I think they'd be good to have.

History, Geography and the Sciences are some of the best subjects for learning about the world around us.
Religion as a subject would only have value if it is religious education, not religious instruction.
A good politics/current affairs subject is a good idea. More important than that, is that schools have real democratic initiatives. Let kids see democracy in action. Where practical, they should have more of a say in school issus e.g. how space is used etc.
Not sure of the need for psychology in secondary school.
Philosophy is useful, if it is used to develop a critical mind and self-learning skills.
On that point, self-learning skills are rarely taught in school, even though it is one of the most important skills anyone can ever have.

(3)Bring in Scholarships- In America, a person who does a sport in High school can earn a scholarship to a University, even if he's not the standard IQ they're looking for. I think Irish education kind've descriminates against people who aren't as smart as people who get into colleges like Trinity or UCD and because of that there a lot of guys who don't get the chance at life, the way college students do and that I think is where the wasted talent goes. Usually those guys are turned away from colleges and have to find another way of getting jobs. Some usually go into trades or apprenticeships, others might go into the Army or the Gardai. But I think scholarships should be brought in to give people the chance to have a new way of getting into a college, and it might also encourage more people to play sports.

Others have dealt with this point.

(4)Maths should not really be an option for getting into College. This is a tricky subject becuase this is where I and a lot of people fall down. I was good at most of my subjects, but Maths was my worst subject in school, I hated it and because I am bad at Maths, it prevents me from getting into a decent college, so I have to go the long way and do Third Level colleges in order to get into a degree course in a decent college. Not that i'm saying third level colleges aren't decent, it I'm talking about Universities and Institutes. Maths is sort of nessesary for getting into most college, and it stops a lot of people who are weak at Maths but good at everything else from getting in. Of course i'm sure if Maths was disregaurded then most people wouldn't have a problem getting into college, but I'm just saying that college shoudl abolish this rule.

Maths is vital. Completely disagree with you here. Obviously everyone has different potential capacities for maths. But often for maths, students that struggle need to be taught in different ways (visually, practically etc). Book work is not always suitable for maths, and even less so for students that struggle with it.

Anyway that's some of the ideas I had, there's more but it's late. Anyway so what do you think. What's you're opinion on the Irish education system, and does it need to be reformed. Also you could bring your own ideas of how to reform it as well.

The irish ed system is decent IMO. Some aspects are disgraceful (e.g. demoninational education, brought about by selfishness on the part of religions- don't listen to those who would tell you that they set up the education system for selfless reasons. Education is never ever neutral).

Also, schools are underfunded.
Some teachers are sh1te.
Some teachers are not that smart (I mean, they are clueless about the outside world, lack basic understanding of subjects etc).

I'm not sure how to reform that, other than regular inspections and/or performance assessments (which are not to be published publicly, nor based on exam results).

Mr.Lizard · 26-05-2009 12:36pm

liah wrote: »

I was fine at maths. Excelled in advanced algebra. My point is your statement is just plain wrong

Prove it.

Kinetic^ · 26-05-2009 12:42pm

Get rid of the religious hold over the schools in Ireland, there's no need for it anymore.

carlop · 26-05-2009 12:43pm

Might be opening a can of worms here but Irish should not be compulsory for Leaving Cert students. In the greater scheme of things, it serves little purpose. It should definitely be an option though. As it is, there are too many students struggling with Irish, which is actually making them develop a serious dislike of the language.

I'll agree that something needs to be done about it though, whether it remains compulsory or not. I studied Irish for 12 years, just as I imagine most others did. When I left school, I could barely string a sentence together, let alone have a full conversation, and I got a B2 in ordinary level which is not a terrible result.

I would second the idea to have an introductory politics and current affairs course as well. I would imagine a frightening amount of 18 year-olds would struggle to name more than one or two politicians and their respective positions. Considering these people are members of the electorate and help elect our future leaders, they should really have a basic knowledge of the political system.

mental07 · 26-05-2009 12:46pm

Irish is taught quite well at primary level, I think. Probably because the emphasis is on speaking and understanding. Then you go on to second level and they try to teach Irish like they teach English. Big problem.

mental07 · 26-05-2009 12:47pm

carlop wrote: »

I would second the idea to have an introductory politics and current affairs course as well. I would imagine a frightening amount of 18 year-olds would struggle to name more than one or two politicians and their respective positions. Considering these people are members of the electorate and help elect our future leaders, they should really have a basic knowledge of the political system.

CSPE? It's not great, though.

carlop · 26-05-2009 12:51pm

mental07 wrote: »

CSPE? It's not great, though.

Yeah good point, though wasn't CSPE only until Junior Cert level? Maybe a Leaving Cert equivalent, with less colouring in.

Cianos · 26-05-2009 12:54pm

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but separating girls and boys needs to be done away with and all schools be mixed. It is a serious stunt on social development for a lot of people and again the only real reason it is in place is because of the church.

mental07 · 26-05-2009 12:55pm

carlop wrote: »

Yeah good point, though wasn't CSPE only until Junior Cert level? Maybe a Leaving Cert equivalent, with less colouring in.

By gum, you're right, it is only a Junior Cert subject. And there's too much emphasis on the project. Which was a load of crap.

segaBOY · 26-05-2009 1:06pm

strongr wrote: »

How isn't religion not really a leaving cert subject? And also religion isnt much about the catholic church. Theres very little to do with the church really. Religion covers philosophy, morals, all world religions, cultures and customes, science(creation) etc

You can do religion as a LC subject. If you get an A1 in it at higher level you get 100 points just like all the other subjects.

Should the Irish Education system be reformed

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