Dónal versus Dónall

BarraOG · 26-09-2014 6:24pm #1

I've seen both spellings used. Are both valid and are they pronounced differently?

endacl · 26-09-2014 6:28pm

1. Ta
2. Nil

BarraOG · 26-09-2014 9:53pm

GRMA!

efb · 26-09-2014 9:54pm

Domhnaill

An Riabhach · 27-09-2014 12:07am

Is it the same story with Iasón and Iasan??

Both pronounced similarly-i.e. "EEaSun".
I use both spellings,as I have seen it written both ways,so I hope I am correct.

Insect Overlord · 27-09-2014 1:08am

efb wrote: »

Domhnaill

That would be the Tuiseal Ginideach of the name. As a first name, it wouldn't be slenderised with that letter "i" at the end.

deirdremf · 27-09-2014 11:58am

BarraOG wrote: »

I've seen both spellings used. Are both valid and are they pronounced differently?

Single broad L and double broad L are pronounced the same in Munster and Connacht, different in Ulster.

(fyi, single slender L and double slender L are pronounced the same in Munster, different in Connacht and Ulster)

Non-native speakers don't tend to make this distinction. In fact most non-native speakers don't even know that slender and broad L are different sounds ....

You might find pronunciations on forvo.com

dubhthach · 27-09-2014 2:19pm

efb wrote: »

Domhnaill

Domhnall

DOMHNALL, genitive -aill, Donall, Donald, (Daniel); Old Irish — Domnall, from Celtic *Dumno-valo-s, world-mighty, *Dubno-valo-s, mighty in the 'deep'; one of the most ancient and popular of Irish names, still in use in every part of the country, but generally anglicised Daniel; also one of the most popular names in Scotland, where it is anglicised Donald. Only one saint of the name is mentioned in the Irish martyrologies; his feast was kept on 26th April Latin — Domnaldus, Donaldus.

Angliscation to Daniel was quite common so for example:
Mac Domhnaill can be anglisced as McDonnell, McDonald, McDaniel

A good example perhaps is Daniel O'Donnell

An Riabhach · 28-09-2014 10:47am

dubhthach wrote: »

Domhnall

Angliscation to Daniel was quite common so for example:
Mac Domhnaill can be anglisced as McDonnell, McDonald, McDaniel

A good example perhaps is Daniel O'Donnell

Dónall Ó Domhnaill......bhfuil an ceart agam?

dubhthach · 28-09-2014 11:01am

Seasan wrote: »

Dónall Ó Domhnaill......bhfuil an ceart agam?

Domhnall Ó Domhnaill
nó
Dónall Ó Dónaill

Of course technically speaking the O'Donnell's are poeticaly known as "Clann Dalaigh" as they descend from Dalach (died 870)

U870.3

Dalach m. Muirchertaigh, dux Generis Conaill, a gennte sua iugulatus est.

The O'Donnell's been descendants of his grandson Domnall Mór (Old. Irish spelling)

[CLANN DALAIG]

54. (Page 19, col. a). Do craebhscailedh cloinne Dalaigh o Domhnall
mor m Eccnechain anuas. Ri ceneil Conuill an Domhnall sin. As e
do chum gnathuighthi et sochar Conullach, et as e do islicch a ndochar
et a n-angnathuigthi ar Dia et do chuaidh a n-ord manach lieth i nEss
Ruaidh. Et robadh ri leithe Cuinn e conuigi sin.

gaiscioch · 28-09-2014 9:39pm

Cad é an NuaGhaeilge ar Malachy? Dé réir Donnchadh Ó Corráin, is é Máel Máedoc nó Máel Seachnall an bun-ainm ach an bhfuil leagan Gaeilge níos nua-aoisí ná sin?

An Riabhach · 28-09-2014 9:46pm

gaiscioch wrote: »

Cad é an NuaGhaeilge ar Malachy? Dé réir Donnchadh Ó Corráin, is é Máel Máedoc nó Máel Seachnall an bun-ainm ach an bhfuil leagan Gaeilge níos nua-aoisí ná sin?

Brón orm faoin chéad phost-léigh mé é go fíor-mhícheart!!

Maelsheachlainn?
Nó Maolsheachlainn?

Esel · 29-09-2014 4:14am

endacl wrote: »

1. Ta
2. Nil

ALT GR abú!

AnLonDubh · 29-09-2014 9:48am

BarraOG wrote: »

I've seen both spellings used. Are both valid and are they pronounced differently?

As mentioned by deirdremf, some dialects pronounce L and LL differently.

dubhthach · 29-09-2014 10:00am

Seasan wrote: »

Brón orm faoin chéad phost-léigh mé é go fíor-mhícheart!!

Maelsheachlainn?
Nó Maolsheachlainn?

Máel Máedóc ainm an naomh i sean Ghaeilge, sa "nua Ghaeilge": Maelmhaedhoc

Máel Sechnaill i sean Ghaeilge
mar shampla:
Máel Sechnaill mac Máele Ruanaid -- ard rí Éireann - d. 862
Máel Sechnaill mac Domnaill -- ard rí Éireann - d.1022 (Máel Sechnaill Mór)
Mael Sechnaill Got mac Mael Sechnaill -- rí Mí (1022-1025)

Ó lár an 11ú feicimid "Máel Sechlainn" so mar shampla:
Conchobar ua Mael Sechlainn (Rí Mí -- 1030-1073), garmhac do "Máel Sechnaill Mór"

Ó MAOILSHEACHLAINN—I—O Mulshaghlen, O Melaghlin, (MacLaughlin, MacLoughlin, &c., Ó Loughlan, Ó Loughlin); 'descendant of Maolsheachlainn' (servant of St. Secundinus); the name of a once celebrated Meath family, of the race of Niall of the Nine Hostages, who derive their descent from Maelsheachlainn, or Malachy II, King of Ireland, who was dethroned by Brian Boru and died in the year 1022. The clan-name of the O Melaghlins and their co-relatives was Clann Cholmain. Before the Anglo-Norman invasion they were kings of Meath, but after that period their power greatly declined. Meath was granted to Hugh de Lacy, and for many centuries the O Melaghlens were confined to the barony of Clonlonan in Westmeath. They were, however, one of the five Irish families who had the privilege of using English laws. In the reign of James I they were again stripped of a considerable portion of what remained of their ancient patrimony; and so completely had this ancient and once powerful family been ruined by the confiscations of the 17th century that in the attainders of 1691 there appears but one person of the name, Maolseachlin O Melaghlin, of Lough Mask, Co. Mayo. The name is now everywhere disguised under the anglicised forms of MacLaughlin, MacLoughlin, &c.

Alt faoin naomh Sechnall/Sechlann:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secundinus

An Riabhach · 29-09-2014 2:13pm

Tá leabhar agam le scríobhneoir darb ainm Maolmhaodhóg Ó Ruairc,agus leabhar eile ón t-údar darb ainm Maolsheachlainn Ó Caollaí.

endacl · 29-09-2014 2:20pm

Esel wrote: »

ALT GR abú!

Bhí mé ar mo phóca. Ní raibh mé go mbeadh eochair ALT GR!

Tá brón orm....

dubhthach · 29-09-2014 3:06pm

endacl wrote: »

Bhí mé ar mo phóca. Ní raibh mé go mbeadh eochair ALT GR!

Tá brón orm....

Bhuel sa iPhone ní gcaithfidh tú ach "brú" a chuir ar na "cnaipe":

An Riabhach · 13-10-2014 8:55pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Domhnall Ó Domhnaill
nó
Dónall Ó Dónaill

B'fhéidir nach bhfuil "Dónall" le h-úsáid ag Daniel O'Donnell fhèin mar leagan Gaeilge ar a ainm pearsanta fhéin ar chor ar bith!!
Féach ar an liosta seo a leanas:

http://www.ireland-information.com/heraldichall/irishboysnames.htm

dubhthach · 14-10-2014 9:22am

Seasan wrote: »

B'fhéidir nach bhfuil "Dónall" le h-úsáid ag Daniel O'Donnell fhèin mar leagan Gaeilge ar a ainm pearsanta fhéin ar chor ar bith!!
Féach ar an liosta seo a leanas:

http://www.ireland-information.com/heraldichall/irishboysnames.htm

Indeed, but my point was more about historic "Interpretatio romana" where certain names were mapped onto an english name where no connection actually exist.

Mar shampla:
Donncha -> Dennis
Áine -> Anne
Dónal/Domhnall -> Daniel (Mac Dómhnaill ó Clann Ceallaigh == McDonnell, McDaniel ⁊ McDonald i mBéarla)
Aodh -> Hugh
Cathal -> Charles

Ol' Donie · 14-10-2014 9:26am

If Donal is Daniel, then what's Donald?

dubhthach · 14-10-2014 10:17am

Ol' Donie wrote: »

If Donal is Daniel, then what's Donald?

How Seán Connery would say the name

historically Donald is scottish angliscation thence the McDonalds of the isles are "Mac Domhnaill" (in Irish) though in Gáidhlig the name is: "Mac Dhòmhnaill". Generally that surname is angliscaed as "McDonell" in Ireland (for example McDonnells of Monaghan, or even McDonnell's in places like Wicklow with Gallowglass origin)

Woulfe mentions the following latin forms of the name:
Domnaldus, Donaldus

It's probable that thus the angliscation Donald is influence by the Latin form (terminal d)

An Riabhach · 14-10-2014 2:50pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Indeed, but my point was more about historic "Interpretatio romana" where certain names were mapped onto an english name where no connection actually exist.

Mar shampla:
Donncha -> Dennis
Áine -> Anne
Dónal/Domhnall -> Daniel (Mac Dómhnaill ó Clann Ceallaigh == McDonnell, McDaniel ⁊ McDonald i mBéarla)
Aodh -> Hugh
Cathal -> Charles

Tá ceist agam faoin leagan Gaeilge ar m'ainm féin.
Tà dhá litriú ann-"Iasón" agus "Iasan".
(foghraítear "EEaSon" nó "EEaSun" ar an dhá cheann.)

Creid nó ná chreid,bíonn cuma deacracht ag Gaeilgeoirí eile an ainm beag seo a rá in iomlán ceart-agus ceapaim go mbraitheann sé ar an litriú.
Mar sin,bíonn "Iasón" le h-úsáid agam uaireanta,agus uaireanta eile úsàidim "Iasan"....mar a dúirt mé-braitheann sé.
An bhfuil cead agam é sin a dhèanamh?

AnLonDubh · 14-10-2014 3:39pm

Iasón an leagan traidisiúnta, an leagan atá aigesna filí.

AnLonDubh · 14-10-2014 4:05pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Woulfe mentions the following latin forms of the name:
Domnaldus, Donaldus

It's probable that thus the angliscation Donald is influence by the Latin form (terminal d)

Más ea, an é "Filius Donaldi" an leagan Laidine? An bhfuil 'Filius' in inead "Mac" le feiscint ins na lamhsríbhinní nuair a bhí an Laidean á húsáid ag an scríbhneoir?

dubhthach · 14-10-2014 4:57pm

AnLonDubh wrote: »

Más ea, an é "Filius Donaldi" an leagan Laidin? An bhfuil 'Filius' in inead "Mac" le feiscint ins na lamhsríbhinní nuair a bhí an Laidean á húsáid ag an scríbhneoir?

U612.1

Mors Aedho Alddain filii Domnaill, regis Temro.

U666.1

Mors Ailella Flainn Esso filii Domnaill filii Aedho filii Ainmereach.

U612.1

Death of Aed Allán son of Domnall, king of Temair.

U666.1

Death of Ailill Flann Esa, son of Domnall son of Aed son of Ainmire.

(fīlius m (genitive fīliī))

Níl aon Laidin agamsa, feicim Donaldus/Donaldi (nominative/genitive ?) ar an leathanach seo

http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donaldus_Tusk

AnLonDubh · 14-10-2014 6:30pm

dubhthach wrote: »

(fīlius m (genitive fīliī))

Níl aon Laidin agamsa, feicim Donaldus/Donaldi (nominative/genitive ?) ar an leathanach seo

http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donaldus_Tusk

GRMA a dhubhthaigh. Nach ait an rud é gur scríobhadh "fīliī" mar aistriú do "Mac" cé gur sa tuiseal ginideach atá "fīliī" agus "mac" sa tuiseal ainmneach. An bhfuil míniú ag éinne? Ní saineolaí Laidine mise, b'fhéid gur fearr an t-eolas atá ag duine éigint anso.

deirdremf · 20-10-2014 9:32pm

dubhthach wrote: »

How Seán Connery would say the name historically Donald is scottish angliscation thence the McDonalds of the isles are "Mac Domhnaill" (in Irish) though in Gáidhlig the name is: "Mac Dhòmhnaill". Generally that surname is angliscaed as "McDonell" in Ireland (for example McDonnells of Monaghan, or even McDonnell's in places like Wicklow with Gallowglass origin)

Woulfe mentions the following latin forms of the name:
Domnaldus, Donaldus

It's probable that thus the angliscation Donald is influence by the Latin form (terminal d)

In Scotland, or at least in some dialects of Gaelic, Domhnall is pronounced Domhnallt, I'd say this is where the final "d" in Donald comes from.

deirdremf · 20-10-2014 9:47pm

AnLonDubh wrote: »

GRMA a dhubhthaigh. Nach ait an rud é gur scríobhadh "fīliī" mar aistriú do "Mac" cé gur sa tuiseal ginideach atá "fīliī" agus "mac" sa tuiseal ainmneach. An bhfuil míniú ag éinne? Ní saineolaí Laidine mise, b'fhéid gur fearr an t-eolas atá ag duine éigint anso.

Tá seo coitianta go leor sa nGaeilge.

Fionn Mac Cumhaill Mhic Tréanmhór
Oisín Mac Fhinn Mhic Chumaill

AnLonDubh · 21-10-2014 3:50pm

deirdremf wrote: »

Tá seo coitianta go leor sa nGaeilge.

Fionn Mac Cumhaill Mhic Tréanmhór
Oisín Mac Fhinn Mhic Chumaill

Amadán 'sea mise gan dabht! GRMA a dheirdremf!

Bhí séimhiú ann sa tuiseal tabharthach fadó leis:

ó Shéamas Mhac Mhathúna

Chonac i gcúpla leabhar Mumhan é, ach n'fheadar cad é tuiseal tabharthach an fhocail "Mac" nuair a bhí tabharthach ag na hainmfhocailibh fireanna.

Insect Overlord · 21-10-2014 5:19pm

Nach mbíonn sé fós mar sin i nGaeilge Uladh? (i. tógann an tuiseal tabharthach séimhiú, agus tógann aidiacht séimhiú leis?)

Dónal versus Dónall

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