The future of Free Travel Passes being flagged again

LXFlyer · 05-03-2012 11:22am

the_syco wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a "free pass" gets onto the bus, is there a log kept for how many "free pass" people get on, and then is that charged by the provider from the government? If this is so, then yes, it would cost the government.

The operators get paid a fixed sum by the Department of Social Protection each year - it bears no resemblance to the actual numbers travelling.

AlekSmart · 05-03-2012 12:29pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Changing the terms of the scheme to reduce the cost to the Dept of Social Protection will only hurt the revenue and passenger numbers at the various state transport companies I expect. Each DSP scheme passenger doesn't equate to a fare-paying passenger if a lot of that travel is discretionary. That said, change is needed nonetheless.

The terms of the Free-Travel Scheme have already been changed.

Since 2011,funding for the scheme has been capped at 2010 levels.

This now means that the DSP are not accepting any further applications from Service Providers.

The main reason why the plain-people are not seeing the ramifications of this cap is the downsizing of the CIE group Road Passenger operations.

Removing 200 vehicles from the Dublin Bus fleet and rationalizing the Route Structure a lá Network Direct has knock-on effects sometimes not appreciated by the wider audience.

Substantial revisions are currently under discussion internally in the DSP and it appears the funding situation is somewhat dire.

What options remain open to allow the DSP to spread this reduced available funding across it's suppliers is open to debate.

I would suggest an annual cap regarding Mainline Rail availability may emerge,with a certain amount of Free Trips followed by a discounted rate for the remainder.

Similarly,with the introduction of the DSP Smart Card,it may well possible to allocate Free-Travel resources on a specific basis...IE: A Job-Seeker could have free-travel within a certain time-frame only whilst a Disabled Person could continue to avail of no restrictions Free Travel.

One thing is absolutely certain,the current Cornflakes Box Pass is nearing the end of it's life,and not a day too soon.

However,the actual audit process which will see the replacement of genuine CornFlakes Box passes with Chipped Cards,will doubtless cause much grinding of teeth and downright anger amounst a VERY large group of people indeed.

I for one will be VERY interested in the final tally of returned cardboard vs newly issued plastic,as I contend that it is probably the largest single occurence of everyday DSP fraud in Ireland.

Jehuty42 · 05-03-2012 12:55pm

Taking the bus this morning as I infrequently do when I miss a train(bus can be faster if traffic works out well), I witnessed two separate incidents of older passengers getting very indignant when the driver insisted on asking to see their pass, rather than letting them just walk on. They did both manage to produce passes though.

foggy_lad · 05-03-2012 1:00pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The terms of the Free-Travel Scheme have already been changed.

Not for those with free travel.

The "conditions of use" have not changed!

You may use your Free Travel Pass on the transport services listed below at any time.

Dublin Bus (except Nitelink and special airport buses)
Bus Éireann (city services)
Bus Éireann (long distance services)
Iarnród Éireann
DART
LUAS
Certain private bus and ferry services
Certain cross-border services between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland
Certain services within Northern Ireland (This is only available to passholders over age 66 that hold a Senior Smartpass card - See Appendix 3 for further details.)

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW40/Pages/5WhencanIusemyFreeTravelPass.aspx

AlekSmart wrote: »

Since 2011,funding for the scheme has been capped at 2010 levels.

This now means that the DSP are not accepting any further applications from Service Providers.

The main reason why the plain-people are not seeing the ramifications of this cap is the downsizing of the CIE group Road Passenger operations.

Removing 200 vehicles from the Dublin Bus fleet and rationalizing the Route Structure a lá Network Direct has knock-on effects sometimes not appreciated by the wider audience.

Cutting away the dead wood and serious rationalisation had to be done! It is just a shame that so many pointless and useless management positions have survived the cull.

Substantial revisions are currently under discussion internally in the DSP and it appears the funding situation is somewhat dire.

Insider knowledge? You must be in sitting on their laps to know all you know?

What options remain open to allow the DSP to spread this reduced available funding across it's suppliers is open to debate.

Staff wages bill can be trimmed down a lot more! it appears to be the largest bill in CIE and especially in Irish Rail.

I would suggest an annual cap regarding Mainline Rail availability may emerge,with a certain amount of Free Trips followed by a discounted rate for the remainder.

Similarly,with the introduction of the DSP Smart Card,it may well possible to allocate Free-Travel resources on a specific basis...IE: A Job-Seeker could have free-travel within a certain time-frame only whilst a Disabled Person could continue to avail of no restrictions Free Travel.

Are you now giving the unemployed free travel?

Contrary to some imaginative journalism practiced in some reports in different newspapers the unemployed whether they be long or short term unemployed have never recieved free travel passes!

One thing is absolutely certain,the current Cornflakes Box Pass is nearing the end of it's life,and not a day too soon.

Agree 110%

However,the actual audit process which will see the replacement of genuine CornFlakes Box passes with Chipped Cards,will doubtless cause much grinding of teeth and downright anger amounst a VERY large group of people indeed.

I for one will be VERY interested in the final tally of returned cardboard vs newly issued plastic,as I contend that it is probably the largest single occurence of everyday DSP fraud in Ireland.

How will it cause grinding of teeth that will be noticable to anyone? IF(i will believe it when it happens) the old passes are replaced and some P&!*K can no longer use their old pass they will pay cash when boarding your bus and you are hardly likely to notice any gnashing or grinding of teeth? Also i cant see those same people being angry at something they were never entitled to being put beyond their use!

foggy_lad · 05-03-2012 1:07pm

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Taking the bus this morning as I infrequently do when I miss a train(bus can be faster if traffic works out well), I witnessed two separate incidents of older passengers getting very indignant when the driver insisted on asking to see their pass, rather than letting them just walk on. They did both manage to produce passes though.

Older people are often ashamed of having free travel because they fear being seen by so many as free-loaders and it puts them in the same category as thieves and junkies and homeless alcoholics in many people's eyes! Many of these people worked hard all their lives and reared very large families in poor conditions in Drimnage Crumlin and similar areas all over the city and county in small damp 2 and 3 bedroom houses many with outside toilets.

The proposed new swipe/smart card will be a godsend for them as they will be able to get on and off the bus or train without anyone knowing their business and being able to label them as wasters!

Jehuty42 · 05-03-2012 1:09pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Also i cant see those same people being angry at something they were never entitled to being put beyond their use!

I wish I shared your faith in people.

foggy_lad · 05-03-2012 1:11pm

Jehuty42 wrote: »

I wish I shared your faith in people.

They may be angry on the inside but i cant see that transferring to them being any more anti-social than many of them currently are:)

Jacknory · 05-03-2012 1:48pm

Nobody in this country, especially now, should be exempt from paying some contribution to travel beit €.50 or €1....its that straighforward!!

trellheim · 05-03-2012 2:11pm

Once we chip the passes and force a tag-on, we can audit the use. There are several data mining programs that can be used to check fraudulent use.

( BTW the same should be done for all season tickets across all modes )

foggy_lad · 05-03-2012 2:27pm

trellheim wrote: »

Once we chip the passes and force a tag-on, we can audit the use. There are several data mining programs that can be used to check fraudulent use.

( BTW the same should be done for all season tickets across all modes )

That will surely not be allowed? would Data protection legislation not protect passengers from this kind of intrusion?

AlekSmart · 05-03-2012 2:39pm

trellheim wrote: »

Once we chip the passes and force a tag-on, we can audit the use. There are several data mining programs that can be used to check fraudulent use.

( BTW the same should be done for all season tickets across all modes )

Without wishing to steal your thunder Trellheim,you are on the right track (

)

One of the less reported aspects of Joan Burtons tenure thus far in the DSP is the belated recognition of just how much expensive legwork can be eradicated by judicious sharing of already stored data.

This sharing and x-referencing has now begun within the DSP over several levels and is showing substantial results.

However,one element which many older folk will have problems with is the presentation of a Pass to a reader or driver.(Although the same demographic in Northern Ireland have no such problem )

Large numbers of my regulars merely tap their breast and usher in whomever happens to be beside them in the full expectation of no questions being asked.

However when I do my job and ask to see the relevant entitlement the following scenario is the usual result....

Jehuty42: I witnessed two separate incidents of older passengers getting very indignant when the driver insisted on asking to see their pass, rather than letting them just walk on.

.

Again,I have to remark upon the entirely different mindset of the Northern Ireland "Senior SmartPass Concession".......probably something to do with that last word.....Concession ?

I would also have to differ with Foggy_Lad in his opinion that the substantial number of folk availing of Free Travel on misappropriated,outdated or otherwise illicit documents will simply shrug their shoulders and suddenly pay up....Not a Chance.:rolleyes:

foggy_lad · 05-03-2012 3:04pm

will you allow them travel if they don't pay up?

trellheim · 05-03-2012 5:49pm

That will surely not be allowed? would Data protection legislation not protect passengers from this kind of intrusion?

It isn't a DP violation, for example, if the concepts are

a: to establish eligibility for use. DSP could require CIE companies to provide usage data to establish a basis for payment.

b. Revenue enforcement; if the same pass is used on widely separated parts of the transport network within a short timeframe it's likely someone's riding illegally.

All goes to show that as long as the data is collected for certain clearly defined purposes and not otherwise.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares--Tickets/Free-Travel-Scheme-/

foggy_lad · 06-03-2012 1:16am

trellheim wrote: »

It isn't a DP violation, for example, if the concepts are

a: to establish eligibility for use. DSP could require CIE companies to provide usage data to establish a basis for payment.

This would have to be anonymous data not linking individual users to any particular route but only identifying a fare for the purpose of payment

b. Revenue enforcement; if the same pass is used on widely separated parts of the transport network within a short timeframe it's likely someone's riding illegally.

This facility is already available by using the pps number on all Rail tickets issued but Irish Rail fraudulently issue return tickets to most who ask for a single so had to stop using the pps number for fraud prevention!

Their fraud is facilitating travel pass fraud

All goes to show that as long as the data is collected for certain clearly defined purposes and not otherwise.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares--Tickets/Free-Travel-Scheme-/

There are rules about using data collected by such systems and just because someone has an entitlement to free travel is not a licence to ride an intercity train through their civil rights!

Cookie_Monster · 06-03-2012 5:00am

foggy_lad wrote: »

This would have to be anonymous data not linking individual users to any particular route but only identifying a fare for the purpose of payment

All it's doing is linking a ticket/pass to travel and routes. While the ticket/pass number and route data may be available to a number of bodies the contact details behind the number would be restricted and hence no DP breach.

foggy_lad · 06-03-2012 10:46am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

All it's doing is linking a ticket/pass to travel and routes. While the ticket/pass number and route data may be available to a number of bodies the contact details behind the number would be restricted and hence no DP breach.

Why is there no free travel smart card already if it is all that simple? I thought the hold up was due to data protection issues? There is a leap card of sorts now but still no word of when or even if there will definitely be a free travel version or if the free travel smart card still being talked about will even be compatible.

AlekSmart · 06-03-2012 12:41pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why is there no free travel smart card already if it is all that simple? I thought the hold up was due to data protection issues? There is a leap card of sorts now but still no word of when or even if there will definitely be a free travel version or if the free travel smart card still being talked about will even be compatible.

You thought incorrectly Foggy_Lad.

The decision to convert the Free Travel Pass to contactless card has already (belatedly) been taken.

As with most Civil Service related projects,the Free Travel Pass issue revolved around the DSP seeking the cheapest possible option open to it.

Up to very recently the Free Travel Scheme was essentially an interdepartmental transfer of funds,with the CIE group being the the largest recipient by a long shot.

However,with the advance in Public Transport Ticketing Technology,it rapidly became apparent that maintaining the tried and trusted Annual Lump Sum, Corn Flakes Box combination was now becoming a VERY large obstacle indeed.

One of the major delays to the LeapCard project was prevarication on the DSP's part about whether it would integrate with LeapCard (An ideal,discreet and sensible solution,which SHOULD have been insisted upon at the outset of LeapCard 12 years ago).

The final decision by the DSP to "Get-Smart" was only taken in late 2010 with a further delay then ensuing as to which contactless protocol was to be utilized.

The current situation is the DSP putting the final touches to it's Smart Card launch,which remember,is to cover all current DSP payments.

http://www.cfit.ie/news-and-commentary-archive/477-publicservicesmartcard

Some of the concerns supposedly worrying individuals re "Privacy" are thoroughly dealt with in this 2011 report prepared for the EU Commission.

http://www.piafproject.eu/ref/PIAF_D1_21_Sept_2011.pdf

The Irish section occupies Pages 75-85.

The paragraph I felt most succinctly dealt with the privacy issue reads thus....

Arts 40-44 of the Irish Constitution (1937) provide for the fundamental rights protection.
However,the Constitution does not explicitly refer to the protection of privacy.
According to the Irish Supreme Court,an individual may invoke Article 40(3)(1) to established an implied right to privacy: "The State guarantees in it's laws to respect,and as far as practicable,by it's laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen"

The DSP's new Smart Card will be the primary personal record of the holders DSP information (Including Medical records).

My reading of the Constitutional summation appears to indicate that this "privacy" issue comes far down the line of stuff the DSP is worrying about.

The alternative,of course,is to pay one's fare and thereby stay under the radar ?

trellheim · 06-03-2012 2:24pm

Using PPS number on tickets IS a DP breach if I recall correctly, as it leads to identity theft.

this problems been solved several times though and in line with DP.

If you "Paddy Bus Rider" want to ride a bus using a pass, using available data sources to check your eligibility to do so seems reasonable. Further, using that same data to check that the same pass isn't tagging on all over the network is also reasonable.

Now if you wanted to make a case that the data should be anonymized after a few days ( used for no more than is needed ) then I'd be all on your side. that way you can track ridership without going back to names.

Losty Dublin · 06-03-2012 2:40pm

Am I alone in wondering why DSP card holders can't be moved to Leap cards or other conventional annual travel passes, along with the appropiate ID cards? That way, those who qualify for free travel get sent out their appropiate pass and the old cards are discounted. Granted, some people will have issues getting ID cards and there will be those who have companion passes but they would be in the minority and it could be addressed with some forethought. CIE would benefit as they would be in a better position to keep track of how many passes are issued and how many trips are made on them, making their passenger surveying a lot easier. Passes can be cancelled if abused, lost or if people no longer are eligible though changing circumstances, death, emigration etc.

foggy_lad · 06-03-2012 2:43pm

trellheim wrote: »

Using PPS number on tickets IS a DP breach if I recall correctly, as it leads to identity theft.

this problems been solved several times though and in line with DP.

If you "Paddy Bus Rider" want to ride a bus using a pass, using available data sources to check your eligibility to do so seems reasonable. Further, using that same data to check that the same pass isn't tagging on all over the network is also reasonable.

Now if you wanted to make a case that the data should be anonymized after a few days ( used for no more than is needed ) then I'd be all on your side. that way you can track ridership without going back to names.

Yes this is how I was seeing any personal data being used in relation to the free travel scheme, only used to prevent fraudulent misuse and data only kept for as long as is necessary to prevent fraudulent use.

http://www.piafproject.eu/ref/PIAF_D1_21_Sept_2011.pdf

Arts. 40-44 of the Irish Constitution (1937) provide for the fundamental rights protection.
However, the Constitution does not explicitly refer to the protection of privacy. According to
the Irish Supreme Court, an individual may invoke Art. 40(3)(1) to establish an implied right
to privacy: “the State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws
to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.”9 The European Convention of
Human Rights Act, 2003 gave further effect of the ECHR in Irish law.

this says to me that the guarantee to respect the right to privacy of citizens is absolute and that the right to a defence and vindication of those rights by the state and law is subject to the practicality of the defence and vindication.

Jehuty42 · 06-03-2012 3:18pm

As a paying customer, should I not have privacy too? I don't want everyone to know I'm not using a free travel pass when they see my shameful regular ticket. I don't want them to know how much I'm paying when I have to say it to the bus driver. My constitutional right to privacy is being infringed every day on public transport.

foggy_lad · 06-03-2012 3:43pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Am I alone in wondering why DSP card holders can't be moved to Leap cards or other conventional annual travel passes, along with the appropiate ID cards? That way, those who qualify for free travel get sent out their appropiate pass and the old cards are discounted. Granted, some people will have issues getting ID cards and there will be those who have companion passes but they would be in the minority and it could be addressed with some forethought. CIE would benefit as they would be in a better position to keep track of how many passes are issued and how many trips are made on them, making their passenger surveying a lot easier. Passes can be cancelled if abused, lost or if people no longer are eligible though changing circumstances, death, emigration etc.

For many years the option has been there to create a new card whether a smart card or photo-id card for use by free travel pass holders but nothing was ever done as there was plenty of money and rather than try to regulate who had a pass they were too busy thinking of ways of adding more people to the list of those who qualify.

One Very simple way to almost completely cut out fraud overnight is to change the rules of the scheme so that a passport or Gardai age card is required to use your pass. the photopass available is useless as anyone can go and claim they are the pass holder and get the photopass.

munchkin_utd · 06-03-2012 3:57pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

One Very simple way to almost completely cut out fraud overnight is to change the rules of the scheme so that a passport or Gardai age card is required to use your pass. the photopass available is useless as anyone can go and claim they are the pass holder and get the photopass.

they cant do that
some people dont have a photo id of any type!

foggy_lad · 06-03-2012 4:03pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

they cant do that
some people dont have a photo id of any type!

They can easily get a Gardai Age card.

munchkin_utd · 06-03-2012 4:09pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

They can easily get a Gardai Age card.

but you forget

that costs a tenner

pensioners (despite their higher tax free allowance, free medical, travel, esb, telephone, fuel and in most cases in houses they own so no accomodation costs - and zero childcare and accompanying costs that a 30 something does have) cannot possibly find such a massive amount of cash like a tenner from their minimum 200euro+ weekly disposable income.

sure remember the outcry when it was asked for 50c from them for medicines?
A tenner is 20times that

foggy_lad · 06-03-2012 4:17pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

but you forget

that costs a tenner

pensioners (despite their higher tax free allowance, free medical, travel, esb, telephone, fuel and in most cases in houses they own so no accomodation costs - and zero childcare and accompanying costs that a 30 something does have) cannot possibly find such a massive amount of cash like a tenner from their minimum 200euro+ weekly disposable income.

sure remember the outcry when it was asked for 50c from them for medicines?
A tenner is 20times that

It is Quite obvious some people just want something to whing and moan about rather than looking for real solutions to issues that are very easy to address!

We all know the Germans have all but taken control of Ireland but it really feels more like the Nazi party are behind much of the rubbish being proposed and suggested regarding benefits paid to the elderly and disabled.

Jehuty42 · 06-03-2012 4:21pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is Quite obvious some people just want something to whing and moan about rather than looking for real solutions to issues that are very easy to address!

Like whinging about the apartheid of having a different coloured ticket to other passengers, rather than looking for real solution to the issues of free travel pass abuse?

foggy_lad · 06-03-2012 4:24pm

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Like whinging about the apartheid of having a different coloured ticket to other passengers, rather than looking for real solution to the issues of free travel pass abuse?

A real solution would be to insist on a passport or Gardai age card be shown with every free pass but this has been rubbished. it is a point i have made before and it really should be implemented but people would rather moan about fraud and misuse than try to stop it!

charlemont · 06-03-2012 4:28pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is Quite obvious some people just want something to whing and moan about rather than looking for real solutions to issues that are very easy to address!

We all know the Germans have all but taken control of Ireland but it really feels more like the Nazi party are behind much of the rubbish being proposed and suggested regarding benefits paid to the elderly and disabled.

Awesome when did this happen, I must get an ICE train back to Cork later..

Using my pass.....

munchkin_utd · 06-03-2012 4:37pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

A real solution would be to insist on a passport or Gardai age card be shown with every free pass but this has been rubbished. it is a point i have made before and it really should be implemented but people would rather moan about fraud and misuse than try to stop it!

im not rubbishing it.

im just expressing a frustration that a country running a current acount defecit in the billions (simply due to spending too much, the banks are a separate issue) has an untouchable grey minority that cant even be asked for 50c for medicines despite them having neglible other outgoings due to their getting everything for free.

You are right that they should be made show ID and the age card is the perfect idea except it would have to be free for pensioners or there would be an outcry. (ironically, young ones with no income at all will still have to pay a tenner for the age card!)

foggy_lad · 06-03-2012 4:53pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

im not rubbishing it.

im just expressing a frustration that a country running a current acount defecit in the billions (simply due to spending too much, the banks are a separate issue) has an untouchable grey minority that cant even be asked for 50c for medicines despite them having neglible other outgoings due to their getting everything for free.

You are right that they should be made show ID and the age card is the perfect idea except it would have to be free for pensioners or there would be an outcry. (ironically, young ones with no income at all will still have to pay a tenner for the age card!)

Any elderly/disabled people I know are not the wealthy socialites some people seem to think, they spend much of their income on heating and travel in taxis and much of the rest on looking after their families the best they can, many have sons daughters or grandchildren that are not doing so well and they will often help out and leave themselves short in the process.

bmaxi · 06-03-2012 5:40pm

A lot of people posting on here seem to be under a misconception. When the late unlamented CJH made one of his few unselfish decisions, to allow free travel for pensioners, it was for the very reason that they could travel the length and breadth of the country. It was felt that this would lead to a better quality of life for older people, thereby improving health and consequently reducing pressure on the Health service. So, for those of you who complain about John and Mary taking the train to Cork or Belfast or wherever, that's what was envisaged in the first place.

Jehuty42 · 06-03-2012 5:49pm

bmaxi wrote: »

A lot of people posting on here seem to be under a misconception. When the late unlamented CJH made one of his few unselfish decisions, to allow free travel for pensioners, it was for the very reason that they could travel the length and breadth of the country.

No, it was to help buy their vote. Don't be naive.

bmaxi · 06-03-2012 7:48pm

Whatever your opinion might be of any ulterior motive, the stated reason was as I said.

trellheim · 07-03-2012 12:11am

When looking at this I was amazed there is no statutory basis for the Free travel scheme, no legal rules or anything, just guidelines. DSFA could kill it tomorrow and be within their rights.

foggy_lad · 07-03-2012 12:31am

trellheim wrote: »

When looking at this I was amazed there is no statutory basis for the Free travel scheme, no legal rules or anything, just guidelines. DSFA could kill it tomorrow and be within their rights.

That would certainly stir things up!

AlekSmart · 07-03-2012 7:40am

trellheim wrote: »

When looking at this I was amazed there is no statutory basis for the Free travel scheme, no legal rules or anything, just guidelines. DSFA could kill it tomorrow and be within their rights.

Your starting to warm-up now Trellheim.....;)

bmaxi · 07-03-2012 10:58am

trellheim wrote: »

When looking at this I was amazed there is no statutory basis for the Free travel scheme, no legal rules or anything, just guidelines. DSFA could kill it tomorrow and be within their rights.

They'd be committing political hari-kiri, no Irish government is going to do that. Even Frau Merkel, when she becomes Taoiseach would baulk.
It realy amazes and saddens me, the animosity some people have against providing this facility for our older generation, reminds me of the boy who took his ball home when he was knocked out of the game. " If I can't play, nobody can".

foggy_lad · 07-03-2012 11:02am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Your starting to warm-up now Trellheim.....;)

But how long would it be before any party that removes the travel pass joins the ranks of fianna fail in the sewer of politics? They would never get elected again!

There is also a human issue to be considered as stated elsewhere most journeys taken by disabled elderly and mobility impaired people living in larger towns will cost far more than for able bodied people because of things like taxis to and from their local station or bus stop costing at least €12 each trip and this cost increases for people living in more rural areas, and it is not enough to tell people who have lived and worked in a community all their lives to move into some anonymous sheltered housing slum in a city, this only diminishes their quality os life!

mikemac1 · 07-03-2012 11:04am

bmaxi wrote: »

It realy amazes and saddens me, the animosity some people have against providing this facility for our older generation,

No animosity against our older generation using it

But you feel like a sucker paying every day when the local druggies have passes and somehow managed to qualify for disability

If the scheme was just for pensioners there would be a lot less people talking about it.

But it's a lot wider then that and there are eight bullet points here for it
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html#l1f4da

Yet people post here about pensioners as if they are the only ones who qualify

bmaxi · 07-03-2012 12:02pm

mikemac1 wrote: »

No animosity against our older generation using it

But you feel like a sucker paying every day when the local druggies have passes and somehow managed to qualify for disability

If the scheme was just for pensioners there would be a lot less people talking about it.

But it's a lot wider then that and there are eight bullet points here for it
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html#l1f4da

Yet people post here about pensioners as if they are the only ones who qualify

Already covered those aspects earlier in the thread. The post count against older people availing of it is at least equal and perhaps larger than that against druggies etc.
Maybe, when we consider removing free travel, we should start with employees of CIE.

trellheim · 07-03-2012 12:22pm

Sorry, for clarity : I am completely in favour of the Free travel scheme, for OAPs and some deserving cases ( and I'm OK with what DSFA consider deserving cases )

My point was being amazed that there was no statutory basis , either in Act of the Oireachtas form, or Statutory instrument for it. There must be a vote subhead for it though, somewhere.

PS : found it, A.36 in revised estimates,

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/REV-2012-Final1.pdf
page 186
77 million this year, up from 75.5 last year.

foggy_lad · 07-03-2012 12:57pm

This reply on another thread sums up what most people will be thinking about the free travel scheme as there are a lot of people with elderly relatives who use their pass regularly or disabled relatives and friends who could not have their current normal standard of living without their free travel pass.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Originally Posted by mickydoomsux
And you expect people not to have a problem with that?

Times are tough for everyone and yet you think that it is ok to give certain people completely free, unlimited use, nationwide travel so that they can use it for their leisure and socialising?

How is that fair to fare paying customers?

I have no problem with it as i know some people who have free travel, some elderly and some disabled and they are not the sort of wasters that many people on Commuting & Transport believe they are.

For someone with a disability or mobility impairment living in Carlow or Waterford or any large town a trip to Dublin can cost a lot more than the normal person has to pay, There is usually €12-€20 or more to be paid for a taxi to and from the bus or train in the town they live and possibly more taxis in Dublin if going to a hospital appointment. This is usually more than most people pay for their normal return fare to Dublin and this cost can greatly increase if the person lives in a rural setting.

In reality for many free travel pass holders it barely allows them to travel at the same cost as everyone else.

Losty Dublin · 07-03-2012 2:46pm

bmaxi wrote: »

Already covered those aspects earlier in the thread. The post count against older people availing of it is at least equal and perhaps larger than that against druggies etc.
Maybe, when we consider removing free travel, we should start with employees of CIE.

CIE staff just get free travel on the part of the company for which they work for; they don't get it wholesale throughout the company. Some staff may be issued with duty passes; these allow them onto buses and trains in line with their duties (eg to get to and from meetings or workplaces) but they are only given to those who need it on a case by case basis.

munchkin_utd · 07-03-2012 2:55pm

trellheim wrote: »

PS : found it, A.36 in revised estimates,

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/REV-2012-Final1.pdf
page 186
77 million this year, up from 75.5 last year.

Still at 110euro a year per head for the 700,000 getting it, the free travel is actualy not the dearest

If I could get year long unlimited intermodal and cross provider transport for 110 euro I'd snap it up straight away!

EDIT:
just for comparison - for CIE services(no luas, private busses etc) a yearly ticket for a working taxpaying commuter costs €4900 Euro.
If CIE were to bill the government for this amount, free travel would cost 3.43 BILLION euro a year!
Maybe the government should quit whilst they are ahead as 77million is a bargain for what they are getting for the pensioners et al.

bmaxi · 07-03-2012 3:06pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

CIE staff just get free travel on the part of the company for which they work for; they don't get it wholesale throughout the company. Some staff may be issued with duty passes; these allow them onto buses and trains in line with their duties (eg to get to and from meetings or workplaces) but they are only given to those who need it on a case by case basis.

That may be the letter of the law but in my experience it isn't the practice. If it is, then please explain how my Dublin Bus driver neighbour can travel to Dublin for free on Bus Eireann? In my time with Dublin City Services, nobody with a CIE employee pass was ever charged a fare, employees of DCS even travelled with their families for free. The pass was supposedly for travel to and from work but a blind eye was turned by all and sundry, I'd be surprised if anything has changed. Anyway, why should CIE employees have free travel to and from work at the expense of the taxpayer?

munchkin_utd · 07-03-2012 3:14pm

bmaxi wrote: »

<snip>Anyway, why should CIE employees have free travel to and from work at the expense of the taxpayer?

do they pay benefit in kind like any other employee would for such a perk?

Losty Dublin · 07-03-2012 3:35pm

bmaxi wrote: »

That may be the letter of the law but in my experience it isn't the practice. If it is, then please explain how my Dublin Bus driver neighbour can travel to Dublin for free on Bus Eireann? In my time with Dublin City Services, nobody with a CIE employee pass was ever charged a fare, employees of DCS even travelled with their families for free. The pass was supposedly for travel to and from work but a blind eye was turned by all and sundry, I'd be surprised if anything has changed. Anyway, why should CIE employees have free travel to and from work at the expense of the taxpayer?

Why don't you ask him yourself? Maybe he has a duty pass, you're the one who knows him, not me

What I know is that a clerical friend in DB has no free rail travel while a few friends in Irish Rail have no bus concession.

I suppose their having free travel is the same how Luas staff have free travel, barmen get a couple of free drinks, cinema staff seeing films, cafe staff eating for free, retail staff getting discounted shopping etc etc; it's a perk of their job and fair play to those who get a perk or two.

AlekSmart · 07-03-2012 11:41pm

trellheim wrote: »

Sorry, for clarity : I am completely in favour of the Free travel scheme, for OAPs and some deserving cases ( and I'm OK with what DSFA consider deserving cases )

My point was being amazed that there was no statutory basis , either in Act of the Oireachtas form, or Statutory instrument for it. There must be a vote subhead for it though, somewhere.

PS : found it, A.36 in revised estimates,

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/REV-2012-Final1.pdf
page 186
77 million this year, up from 75.5 last year.

Some interesting supplementary stuff in this little piece too.....

http://www.coe.int/t/dGHl/monitoring/Socialcharter/Complaints/CC42CaseDoc4_en.pdf

Page 23 of Annex A ...has a small piece concerning the non-statutory nature of the Free Travel Scheme.

Sec 6 on Page 31 also appears to reference the somewhat ad-hoc nature of the scheme.

The extent of "Free-Travel Retention" arrangements,whereby people being switched to differing DSP schemes retain the Free-Travel entitlement,is also worth noting,as it gives the lie to the "Pensioners Only" angle which some adopt.

The reality is that the original "OAP Free-Travel Scheme" was introduced during a period of EEc mandated "Flight from the Land".
This was a period when we were told the traditional Irish small-holding was unsustainable and the young country folk would need to travel away for work,leaving an increasingly ageing population somewhat isolated in the "Home-Place".

It was also an era of CENtralization rather than DEcentralization,during which,allowing the rural elderly to have free-access to public transport was,and remains still,a very desireable and worthwhile arrangement.

However,all that has happened since the original Free-Travel introduction has been an ever increasing mutation of entitlement to an extent which now threatens the very existance of the entire scheme.

If the Free-Travel Scheme is not brought under some form of realistic control the real risk is of it collapsing entirely....which would really be a disaster for Ireland.

bmaxi · 08-03-2012 1:19am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Why don't you ask him yourself? Maybe he has a duty pass, you're the one who knows him, not me What I know is that a clerical friend in DB has no free rail travel while a few friends in Irish Rail have no bus concession.

I suppose their having free travel is the same how Luas staff have free travel, barmen get a couple of free drinks, cinema staff seeing films, cafe staff eating for free, retail staff getting discounted shopping etc etc; it's a perk of their job and fair play to those who get a perk or two.

What perks private companies provide for their employees is entirely a matter for them.

The future of Free Travel Passes being flagged again

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