Education in Ireland 11th best in world

jasonmcco · 27-11-2012 5:26pm

drquirky wrote: »

I find it impossible to believe that an education system where students spend 13 years studying a dead and useless language for purely political reasons, are forced to attend a crazy amount of religion classes and take an outdated standardised test at the end of their studies is the 11th best in the world.

I wouldn't place a whole lot of stock in this study.

Could not agree more.

Situation is laughable concerning religion and irish studies.

Cavehill Red · 27-11-2012 5:29pm

DamoKen wrote: »

Ditto, girlfriend is from up North and all the above applies to her. The level of support for music in particular is phenomenal. What public school in the Rep would supply books let alone musical instruments to students? She learnt to play the cello to a degree where she toured with an orchestra, the cello was supplied by the school and was worth 1000's. On top of that she also by the time she did her A levels was a grade 7 on piano, all in a publicly funded school, and although always exceptional to me, was in no way an exception to the rule

I would love to see the NI stats taken in exclusion actually. A-level results, Oxbridge entrance numbers and a number of other factors suggest that NI would be higher up the table again, and is in fact helping to mask lower English and Welsh educational standards within an overall UK ranking.

steddyeddy · 27-11-2012 5:31pm

CdeC wrote: »

Irish system is severly flawed, mainly as there is not enough incentives for teachers to do their job properly and also for bad ones to be let go.

My Irish teacher did not teach us once in 5 years in seondary school and no matter how many times people complained he still shuffled his fat arse into the classroom year after year. He hated teaching and all he talked about (in English) was his plans for summer and hit us when we weren't listening. He was a waste of time and a terrible teacher.

We have a very educated workforce and the government should be pumping money into developing our "knowledge economy" as it's the only thing we'll have to attract investment.

This. We have a very educated work force generally and their are plenty of people who make excellent teachers but It is next to impossibleto get rid of uncaring crappy teachers.

jasonmcco · 27-11-2012 5:33pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Where did you get that balls?

We don't even examine religion in Ireland. These tests would hardly test Ireland in religion and then give all the other countries zero. As far as I know the tests are reading, maths and science.

Provision of quality CPD activities (workshops etc) for teachers of Junior and Leaving Certificate Religious Education (JCRE & LCRE), facilitated through the local Education Centres

Duggy only comment when your well informed.

We do examine religion at both junior an leaving cert level.
You would have to know that if you were in school doing junior cert or leaving cert. Did you?

jasonmcco · 27-11-2012 5:38pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Are we falling behind? This report has us 5th in Europe behind Finland, Holland, Switzerland and the UK

yes we are falling behind and if you can find a report that says we are improving please post.

coffee_cake · 27-11-2012 5:38pm

It's based on the school if they want to examine it. I didn't take religion for either JC or LC.

Fiery mutant · 27-11-2012 5:45pm

For proof on how piss poor the Irish education system is, we need only look at our Government.

Most of the people running the country are teachers, and judging how badly they do at their current job's, I'd hate to have them teaching my kids.

jasonmcco · 27-11-2012 5:55pm

karma_ wrote: »

So with anecdotal evidence in hand you're just going to dismiss the study the OP referenced?

LOL.

It's great we are 11th.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/college-rank-fall-a-blemish-on-educational-aspirations-207138.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2011/1220/1224309288986.html

We are slipping is my point and that is down to time mis spent on useless subjects like religion and irish. Am sure there are other factors too but these two are an easy fix to find between 4-6 hrs weekly for use on other more necessary and relevant subjects

jasonmcco · 27-11-2012 5:59pm

karma_ wrote: »

I would love nothing more to see religion ditched from all schools, but he's saying that Ireland is falling behind because of that, when the evidence actually says otherwise. He really doesn't have a point at all.

Which evidence are you referring to please.

4-6 hrs spent extra on reading,maths and science would have to produce positive results for these subjects. Would you agree?

jasonmcco · 27-11-2012 6:06pm

parc wrote: »

Em...well I did the leaving cert and I certainly didn't do an exam in religion. Therefore it's not a core examination subject unless that has changed in the last 8 years which I doubt

Anyone who takes it would surely have it discounted by Unis/Employers like General Studies A-level is in the UK

.

You may not have chosen it as a subject just the same as you didnt choose to do history for example. But history still a subject obviously.

Core subjects i guess you are talking about is maths,english and laughably irish. So your " therefore it's not a core examination" comment is pure rubbish.

steddyeddy · 27-11-2012 6:08pm

Why is religion given so much time in this day and age?

Greentopia · 27-11-2012 6:34pm

CdeC wrote: »

Also the curriclum should be changes to teach more anlytical and problem solving skills. Also some independent decision making and critical thinking might be useful. The LC is mostly a memory test in a lot of subjects.

This. In many subjects the LC is simply regurgitating information. Or at least it was when I was doing it. There was a woeful lack of how to use critical thinking and analysis skills to learn and discern information.

I also found Irish to be a complete waste of time and would have gladly dropped it for the JC and LC. And our Irish teacher was woeful.

I wouldn't have minded a comparative religion class but I was taught catholic dogma. I very much resent having had that shoved down my throat, not to mention what a waste of time it was when I could've been learning something far more interesting.

I would have dropped maths too in a heartbeat if it wasn't compulsory. Hated that subject. An English friend of mine got to choose subjects over there for A-levels that I would have found so much more interesting like English Literature, instead of just "English", Ancient History, and Philosophy and Ethics. Why can't we have a choice of subjects in school like that over here rather than compulsory ones like Irish which I never had/will never have any use for?

From talking to him about it he also seemed to have studied those subjects a lot more in depth than the LC subjects I had to do.

Ficheall · 27-11-2012 6:52pm

Educated workforce? Come on...

One of the guys in the office today was showing us a previous year's exam paper he was basing a maths grind on - the first question, of three to be answered I think, was on rounding off numbers. This was for second year engineering students in university.
Just because everyone is given a degree does not mean we have a "knowledge economy".

AdamD · 27-11-2012 6:59pm

The subject 'religion' is the study of worldwide religions nowadays, not the classic shove catholicism down your throat, and we only had 1 class a week (40 mins) as opposed to 5 classes of science a week in Junior Cert in our school (I finished 2 years ago). After that its an optional subject...

Think people are making a much bigger issue of it than it really is.

wonton · 27-11-2012 7:08pm

drquirky wrote: »

I find it impossible to believe that an education system where students spend 13 years studying a dead and useless language for purely political reasons.

but finland are somewhat similar, and they are number one, scandanavia has the highest standard of english as a second language in the world,so even though everyone could speak english to each other, finnish people still have to learn swedish just because it used to rule the country.

most finns hate it, and are fairly bad at it actually.

steddyeddy · 27-11-2012 7:09pm

wonton wrote: »

but finland are somewhat similar, ane they are number one, scandanavia has the highest standard of english as a second language in the world,so even though everyone could speak english to each other, finnish people still have to learn swedish just because it used to rule the country.

most finns hate it, and are fairly bad at it actually.

Indeed schools in Greece even offer ancient greek for students up to a certain year.

jasonmcco · 27-11-2012 7:12pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Our education system is 5th in Europe. I don't know where you were "educated" but you don't get to have your own facts.

I already explained that the report you linked to is.
2
1) out of date and superseded by this most recent report, and
2) mathematically suspect. 36 new countries were added to PISA between 2006 and 2009. We dropped less than 36 places ( more commonly 5-10). Meaning we stayed in the same, or higher percentile.

You explained nothing you just misled.

Your point:
1) out of date and superseded by this most recent report,

This composite picture puts the UK in a stronger position than the influential Pisa tests from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) - which is also one of the tests included in this ranking.

Your point:
2) mathematically suspect. 36 new countries were added to PISA between 2006 and 2009. We dropped less than 36 places ( more commonly 5-10). Meaning we stayed in the same, or higher percentile.[/QUOTE]

All these factors combine in the major problem we now have with maths. So few kids here do higher level maths in the Leaving Cert that the department is now considering giving bonus points for it.

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/roots/ireland_calling/why-the-irish-education-system-stinks-101457699.html

One of the main points i have been trying to get across is hours spent on religious and irish studies could be better used on more important subjects.

Do you disagree?

But you can't do computer science. You don't need a lot of points to know that is stupid.

There are all these teenagers in Ireland (like mine) who know how to do highly complicated downloads, uploads and conversions on their computers and can play all kinds of super-complicated PlayStation games online with people in Japan or South America. But, although there are around 40 possible subjects for the Leaving Cert, computer science is not one of them.

But at least they can study religion

jasonmcco · 27-11-2012 7:29pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Why is religion given so much time in this day and age?

All schools in Ireland even non denominational in order to receive public funding have to prvide for 2.5 hours of religious studies. Church demands it.
They are in charge.

Article 42.3 of the constitution states;
Quote:
The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.
Church hijacked the word moral and replaced it with religious. Government colluded.

It is mandatory your child must take part in religion class. You have no choice.

sock puppet · 27-11-2012 7:32pm

summerskin wrote: »

There are 14 UK universities ranked higher or equal to Trinity, which is Ireland's highest, and 29 ranked higher than UCD, which Ireland's 2nd ranked. Seems to be quite a big difference really. For example, a degree from Sheffield(ranked 110), would hardly carry the prestige in England that a degree from your finest institution, Trinity, ranked 110 also, would carry in Ireland.

Some people in the UK can be a bit snobby about universities though. The "prestige" of Trinity is a lot more beneficial in the UK than Ireland imo.

jasonmcco wrote: »

There are all these teenagers in Ireland (like mine) who know how to do highly complicated downloads, uploads and conversions on their computers and can play all kinds of super-complicated PlayStation games online with people in Japan or South America. But, although there are around 40 possible subjects for the Leaving Cert, computer science is not one of them.

But at least they can study religion

Personally I'm not sure programming is really that suitable a course for the Leaving Cert in its current form. Programming isn't something you learn in a classroom and written exams are a nightmare.

steddyeddy · 27-11-2012 7:34pm

jasonmcco wrote: »

All schools in Ireland even non denominational in order to receive public funding have to prvide for 2.5 hours of religious studies. Church demands it.
They are in charge.

Article 42.3 of the constitution states;
Quote:
The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.
Church hijacked the word moral and replaced it with religious. Government colluded.

It is mandatory your child must take part in religion class. You have no choice.

Does'nt make for good reading does it?

pabloh999 · 27-11-2012 7:40pm

11th in the world is hardly a great achievement.
Top 3 would be great. 11th not so much

Dave0301 · 27-11-2012 8:36pm

pabloh999 wrote: »

11th in the world is hardly a great achievement.
Top 3 would be great. 11th not so much

11th out of what? About 196?

I think 11th ain't bad all things considered.

Hippies! · 27-11-2012 8:45pm

The Finnish system seems pretty cool, why can't we adopt it here?

Education in Finland is an egalitarian system, with no tuition fees and with free meals served to full-time students.

Oh..."tax payers money"..."students bleh"...."tighten our belts"...."sense of entitlement is disgusting here"...."hospitals need money more"...."rabble rabble rabble".... :rolleyes:

pabloh999 · 27-11-2012 9:00pm

Dave0301 wrote: »

11th out of what? About 196?

I think 11th ain't bad all things considered.

Being 11th at anything is nothing really to celebrate imo

Greentopia · 27-11-2012 9:01pm

AdamD wrote: »

The subject 'religion' is the study of worldwide religions nowadays, not the classic shove catholicism down your throat,

Interesting. This is in all Catholic schools? equal weight and time is given to the study of all world religions (and major alternative/nature/quasi religious beliefs like Wicca, Paganism, Pantheism, Deism etc. as well as none!-agnosticism, atheism)? is there genuine critical analysis, dialogue and discussion allowed where students are allowed to openly disagree with and criticise the tenets of Catholicism, or indeed any religion-if they so feel? I as an atheist since my school days could now stand up in class and be openly critical about the litany of abuses, human rights violations and whatever else I feel is wrong within that church without any kind of censure or recriminations? or would I just have to keep my mouth shut like I did when I was in school-because if so that's not progress.

Do please correct me if I'm wrong but I find it hard to believe a teacher (at least a nominally Catholic one anyway in a Catholic school) would be ok with me doing that.

summerskin · 27-11-2012 9:20pm

sock puppet wrote: »

Some people in the UK can be a bit snobby about universities though. The "prestige" of Trinity is a lot more beneficial in the UK than Ireland imo.

.

Not so sure about that. As an employer, I'd never even heard of Trinity when I was living and working in the UK. And that's from someone who was privately educated in England ( from a council house background. The joys of scholarships...) and ran a legal firm in Chelsea.

coonecb1 · 27-11-2012 9:38pm

From talking to a Lithuanian person I really believe our education is worse than they have in Lithuania.

Over there a typical public school will make the students do sport everyday, the schools have facilities like running tracks, sports halls etc as standard. They even give the kids cooked lunches and soups etc, a far cry from my school days when we had whatever our parents gave us, or went to the chipper at lunch.

For me the biggest failures of the Irish education system is the lack of mandatory sport (PE is a joke in most schools) and the poor foreign language skills among school leavers.

sock puppet · 27-11-2012 9:45pm

summerskin wrote: »

Not so sure about that. As an employer, I'd never even heard of Trinity when I was living and working in the UK. And that's from someone who was privately educated in England ( from a council house background. The joys of scholarships...) and ran a legal firm in Chelsea.

That's not the point. I meant going to Trinity over say DCU is more of an advantage in the UK than Ireland, where I don't think it matters.

up for anything · 27-11-2012 9:56pm

summerskin wrote: »

A-Levels (which are widely considered to be the equivalent of the first year of a degree course in Ireland, due to the fact that they are the specialised study of three subjects, rather than ten or eleven in the LC)

Shows you know feck all about the Leaving Cert.

fall · 27-11-2012 9:59pm

Greentopia wrote: »

Interesting. This is in all Catholic schools? equal weight and time is given to the study of all world religions (and major alternative/nature/quasi religious beliefs like Wicca, Paganism, Pantheism, Deism etc. as well as none!-agnosticism, atheism)? is there genuine critical analysis, dialogue and discussion allowed where students are allowed to openly disagree with and criticise the tenets of Catholicism, or indeed any religion-if they so feel? I as an atheist since my school days could now stand up in class and be openly critical about the litany of abuses, human rights violations and whatever else I feel is wrong within that church without any kind of censure or recriminations? or would I just have to keep my mouth shut like I did when I was in school-because if so that's not progress.

Do please correct me if I'm wrong but I find it hard to believe a teacher (at least a nominally Catholic one anyway in a Catholic school) would be ok with me doing that.

In our school that is exactly how it is done. The main religion teacher is also a chaplain and trained in Mater Dei. They have great debates and everyone is entitled to their own view. Have a look at last years leaving cert religion exam on examinations.ie. It is a religion exam not a Catholic exam. Ironically if this subject was taught correctly it is an excellent opportunity for critical thinking to occur.
On the Irish argument, the curriculum is horrendous and so out of touch. If they want to revive the language it should be taught as mainly conversational with a small number of modules on the history and literature. Students who go to the Gaeltacht love it there but hate it in the classroom. I don't blame them.

Education in Ireland 11th best in world

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