Education in Ireland 11th best in world

Chuck Stone · 27-11-2012 1:27pm

summerskin wrote: »

So how come when my wife was going to go back to Uni over here to study Economics she was told that she would not need to do the first year, as her A level was the equivalent of the first year's study? Also how come in my A level french and german we worked to a far higher level than my cousin from Ireland? He was closer to GCSE level than A level.

How come Irish students who are educated closer to a 'GCSE level' breeze into Uni's in England while not attaining the points for similar degrees here?

What they do, however, is prepare you to study a specialised subject over a period, to prepare you for a similar study pattern at university, something the LC does not do.

They probably do prepare students for Uni, I know lots of students struggle with self-directed learning and referencing etc here, but that doesn't mean that a LC subject is worth ½ an A-level.

As for point two, there are many many more universities in England, some of which accept lower standards (usually the ones which used to be polytechnics).

Some of which? Don't you mean most of which?

The UK has far better universities than Ireland

At the upper tier that's absolutely true and to be expected (Oxford, Cambridge, Eton, UCLondon, Kings C.L.). But the average university in England/UK? I doubt there's a big difference if any.

Remember that Ireland has a population roughly equivalent to greater Manchester too so we're hardly comparing like with like as regards 'elite' Uni's.

so your point that if you fail to get in one here you can walk into one there is total shíte.

It's pretty standard actually.

Chuck Stone · 27-11-2012 1:37pm

Ziphius wrote: »

A Levels are worth more CAO points than leaving certificate subjects. For example A* is A level is 150 points while A1 in LC is 100 points. More details here:
https://myucd.ucd.ie/programme_info/alevel.ezc

So two LC subjects are roughly equivalent to 200 points and seeing as LC students have to study twice as many subjects as then that sounds about right.

Two 'half' A-levels i.e. LC subjects at top rate = 200 points

One full A-level = 150 points.

Would that mean that UK students would have to have 4 top end A-levels to do the highest point degrees here?

drquirky · 27-11-2012 1:42pm

I find it impossible to believe that an education system where students spend 13 years studying a dead and useless language for purely political reasons, are forced to attend a crazy amount of religion classes and take an outdated standardised test at the end of their studies is the 11th best in the world.

I wouldn't place a whole lot of stock in this study.

27-11-2012 1:53pm

Ireland shouldn't be 11th apart from the fact that everyone can access it..

Looking back, it's mental really. Irish and French killed me in the Leaving and for what.. Never spoke a word of either yet I needed them to get to university. Such a waste of time.. Could have studied my core subjects to a much higher level instead.

summerskin · 27-11-2012 1:59pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

How come Irish students who are educated closer to a 'GCSE level' breeze into Uni's in England while not attaining the points for similar degrees here?

They probably do prepare students for Uni, I know lots of students struggle with self-directed learning and referencing etc here, but that doesn't mean that a LC subject is worth ½ an A-level.

Some of which? Don't you mean most of which?

At the upper tier that's absolutely true and to be expected (Oxford, Cambridge, Eton, UCLondon, Kings C.L.). But the average university in England/UK? I doubt there's a big difference if any.

Remember that Ireland has a population roughly equivalent to greater Manchester too so we're hardly comparing like with like as regards 'elite' Uni's.

It's pretty standard actually.

There are 14 UK universities ranked higher or equal to Trinity, which is Ireland's highest, and 29 ranked higher than UCD, which Ireland's 2nd ranked. Seems to be quite a big difference really. For example, a degree from Sheffield(ranked 110), would hardly carry the prestige in England that a degree from your finest institution, Trinity, ranked 110 also, would carry in Ireland.

Iwasfrozen · 27-11-2012 2:28pm

If we removed Irish as a compulsory subject it would help push up our rank because we could concentrate the time on other areas.

Blisterman · 27-11-2012 2:35pm

The UK definitely has a box ticking culture when it comes to education, which I suspect explains their high ranking.

Sure, X% of students being above a certain level of reading and maths is a good thing, but that's not necessarily the sign of a good education. The ability to think critically, interact with people, find solutions to problems, are, in my opinion better signs of a good education, but unfortunately something that's difficult to quantify and compare.

coffee_cake · 27-11-2012 2:36pm

It's interesting to see people referring to a level material being equivalent to 1st year uni and that's why it's better than LC. My own first year thphys in uni was easier than LC applied maths, definitely a good bit easier. I guess that's the same as an a level so??

Agree with the comments about us being 11th in conjunction with religion time >>>> science time and learning irish only? Nah

parc · 27-11-2012 2:36pm

summerskin wrote: »

There are 14 UK universities ranked higher or equal to Trinity, which is Ireland's highest, and 29 ranked higher than UCD, which Ireland's 2nd ranked. Seems to be quite a big difference really. For example, a degree from Sheffield(ranked 110), would hardly carry the prestige in England that a degree from your finest institution, Trinity, ranked 110 also, would carry in Ireland.

Yes but say you want to go and get a job anywhere really, a degree from Trinity will be more favourably looked upon than a degree from Sheffield.
The population and size of the UK economy are all factors that contribute to things like funding etc which play a part in rankings.

As for A level vs the Leaving. I'd imagine that the A levels are more detailed as you do less. That surely must be the case. Also degrees in Ireland are 4 years while in the UK they're 3 years. That's probably why that woman was allowed to bypass first year

Overall we have to study Maths to LC which I think has its merits over being able to drop it after GCSE like you can it the UK. However I think I'd prefer to sit A-levels than the LC. I like the Idea of 3 focused subjects but can also see the benefits of doing the 6 with Maths and English being compulsory

pickarooney · 27-11-2012 2:45pm

summerskin wrote: »

There are 14 UK universities ranked higher or equal to Trinity, which is Ireland's highest, and 29 ranked higher than UCD, which Ireland's 2nd ranked. Seems to be quite a big difference really. For example, a degree from Sheffield(ranked 110), would hardly carry the prestige in England that a degree from your finest institution, Trinity, ranked 110 also, would carry in Ireland.

I've never noticed anyone buying into the whole 'prestige' university thing in Ireland, at least not on a level that counts. Are there firms in Ireland who select graduates based on the college they attended, even unofficially?

steddyeddy · 27-11-2012 2:50pm

I'm delighted the Finish system has got recognition. The Finish system amongst other criteria in essence do not segregate children according to parental wealth like this country. Private schools really dont play a big part in education and in sending a high percentage on to further education.

In Finland even the schools that are considered private often are not allowed to take tuition fees from students. Their system would be described as egalitarian.

The only system that will ensure the best graduates is an egalitarian system imo. Many have said that everyone takes the same leaving cert and that is true. The leaving cert is invariable as a test. The help that students get eg private schools is not invariable. In fact it is dependent on nothing to do with the student themselves ie their parents wealth.

The only inequality in education should be between those that work hard and are intelligent and those who dont and are'nt.

The egalitarian system in Finland also teaches kids that money doesnt determine ones academic abiltiy. A trait that seems to be lost on some of the privately educated here.

Shenshen · 27-11-2012 2:52pm

After the argument I just had in the 29k income = poverty thread, I wonder if the lessons in maths are sufficient, to be honest.

That said, I sincerely hope that the government will not take these results as an excuse to sit back and relax about education for a decade or two, or possibly even cut funding further.

pickarooney · 27-11-2012 2:53pm

Does anyone know if there is any difference in exam results in boys and girls in Finland?

Blisterman · 27-11-2012 2:55pm

There's a load of university snobbery in the UK. You won't even get an interview in some firms there, unless you went to one of the top ranking ones.

Which is ridiculous really, since the rankings aren't really based around the standard of education. They're based on things like what percentage are in employment six months after graduation. Doesn't matter if it's working in Tesco or something related to your course, and dropout rate, where a high dropout rate counts against the university, even if it's due to the course being too tough for people.

Rochester · 27-11-2012 2:59pm

Given the length of the school day and the long holidays it is nothing short of a miracle that we are 11th

coffee_cake · 27-11-2012 3:17pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm delighted the Finish system has got recognition. The Finish system amongst other criteria in essence do not segregate children according to parental wealth like this country.

They don't stream them according to ability either afaik. Gifted children? too bad, they can wait for everyone else.

Shenshen · 27-11-2012 3:20pm

Rochester wrote: »

Given the length of the school day and the long holidays it is nothing short of a miracle that we are 11th

Compared to, say, Germany, with school days lasting from 8am to 1pm, and somewhere around 13 - 15 weeks holidays a year?

steddyeddy · 27-11-2012 3:22pm

bluewolf wrote: »

They don't stream them according to ability either. Gifted children? too bad, they can wait for everyone else.

Well by in large they're more progressive than we are. As regards gifted children I would say that theres not many systems in the world that can recognise genius. For example some kids may be gifted in the areas of maths but not in the use of langauge and vice versa. Their have been instances of people like that who didnt even pass their state exams yet define new mathematical proofs.

coffee_cake · 27-11-2012 3:24pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well by in large they're more progressive than we are. As regards gifted children I would say that theres not many systems in the world that can recognise genius. For example some kids may be gifted in the areas of maths but not in the use of langauge and vice versa. Their have been instances of people like that who didnt even pass their state exams yet define new mathematical proofs.

It's just irritating to see it hailed as the best thing ever and all the "this is the perfect system" type results on google, when that is still an issue.
The last time I read up on it, they were very very focused on classes being age based more than anything else, which I'm not big into.
I'm not denying they seem to do a great job, it's just one major issue that comes to mind.

Cool Mo D · 27-11-2012 3:28pm

bluewolf wrote: »

It's just irritating to see it hailed as the best thing ever and all the "this is the perfect system" type results on google, when that is still an issue.
The last time I read up on it, they were very very focused on classes being age based more than anything else, which I'm not big into.
I'm not denying they seem to do a great job, it's just one major issue that comes to mind.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they pair gifted and slightly weaker students up, so the better students help explain the material to the weaker ones. Since there's no better way of thoroughly understanding something than trying to explain it a few different ways to someone else, it's a pretty good way of doing it.

coffee_cake · 27-11-2012 3:31pm

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Actually, I'm pretty sure they pair gifted and slightly weaker students up, so the better students help explain the material to the weaker ones. Since there's no better way of thoroughly understanding something than trying to explain it a few different ways to someone else, it's a pretty good way of doing it.

Yeah? Do you have any links? I'm genuinely curious, I can't find anything on google beyond general praise. Explaining to others is a good way of learning indeed, but if there's a big mismatch in ability, it doesn't always work too well. It also doesn't allow for the brightest students to be really challenged either with more advanced material. If they know the stuff inside out, going to school every day to teach kids who don't get it seems to miss the point.
Anyway I didn't mean to derail the whole thing...

professore · 27-11-2012 3:34pm

summerskin wrote: »

I take it you never went to school in the UK? Sure, there are some schools that are below par, usually in areas with a poor socio-economic background, but the same can be said of anywhere.

I went through the UK school system, learned foreign languages from the age of 7, played a wide variety of musical instruments, tried my hand at at least a dozen sports, learned a second foreign language, did my GCSEs, then my A-Levels (which are widely considered to be the equivalent of the first year of a degree course in Ireland, due to the fact that they are the specialised study of three subjects, rather than ten or eleven in the LC), and ultimately went on to gain an Honours degree from one of the top 100 universities in the world.

All from my home on a council estate in a town blighted by riots and decay. The access to a good education is there for anyone in the UK, it's what you make of it that matters. Same as here.

What foreign language did you learn? And could you speak it fluently after finishing A-levels (note it doesn't count if one of your parents was a native speaker).

Also the fact that you did 3 A-Levels in such detail means you only had a cursory knowledge of the other subjects you studied.

Wompa1 · 27-11-2012 3:36pm

Is it just me or is there some info missing from the story. They allude to some of the aspects that make the countries education systems good but don't list all of the criteria used to judge across the board.

The level of graduation is a bit of a red herring, isn't it? That doesn't mean the country produces quality graduates.

Quality of Teachers? Is this based on their level of qualifications or the results of the students?

If the United States has the top third level institutions, what does that count towards. The story seems to be focused on colleges so surely those places have some of the top lecturers, graduates, research etc. Maybe I've completely misinterpreted the findings.

Finland and South Korea seem like good choices though from what I have read.

steddyeddy · 27-11-2012 3:36pm

bluewolf wrote: »

It's just irritating to see it hailed as the best thing ever and all the "this is the perfect system" type results on google, when that is still an issue.
The last time I read up on it, they were very very focused on classes being age based more than anything else, which I'm not big into.
I'm not denying they seem to do a great job, it's just one major issue that comes to mind.

Well yes I would agree that helping gifted children reach maximise their abilty is still a major issue. It's clearly not a perfect system so and I would say that most systems in the world are'nt conducive to the development of genius. Being more advanced in school is currently a handicap imho. Being advanced yet having to do the same tedious work as everyone else is torture.

steddyeddy · 27-11-2012 3:38pm

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Actually, I'm pretty sure they pair gifted and slightly weaker students up, so the better students help explain the material to the weaker ones. Since there's no better way of thoroughly understanding something than trying to explain it a few different ways to someone else, it's a pretty good way of doing it.

I'm going to sound elitest but I dont think gifted students should wasting time explaining things to the weaker ones. That's surely what the teacher should be doing.

pickarooney · 27-11-2012 3:39pm

Maybe they don't accept that there are gifted children and that with the same stimulation and encouragement all the children are capable of achieving high levels?

It's something I've often wondered about.

professore · 27-11-2012 3:43pm

summerskin wrote: »

There are 14 UK universities ranked higher or equal to Trinity, which is Ireland's highest, and 29 ranked higher than UCD, which Ireland's 2nd ranked. Seems to be quite a big difference really. For example, a degree from Sheffield(ranked 110), would hardly carry the prestige in England that a degree from your finest institution, Trinity, ranked 110 also, would carry in Ireland.

Considering the population of the UK is roughly 14 times the ROI, this is hardly surprising. So they are about equal on that score. There are good universities in both countries, with some excellent ones in the UK.

However my point is more about general primary and secondary education, I would rank Ireland above England and similar to Scotland for quality, but both are well below continental European standards. For example, when you learn a language over there, you can SPEAK it afterwards!!!!

I'm talking about the kind of education that will equip you for a job in today's high tech world, not for being a ballet dancer or trombone player, laudable as these things are.

steddyeddy · 27-11-2012 3:44pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Maybe they don't accept that there are gifted children and that with the same stimulation and encouragement all the children are capable of achieving high levels?

It's something I've often wondered about.

Maybe that's true and I would love to read some studies on it. I would think that their are individual examples of people who were and are gifted in some ways. Srinivasa Ramanujan springs to mind.

Duggys Housemate · 27-11-2012 3:45pm

The university rankings are a red herring.
1) the rankings are ranked by asking the top ranking university's to rank other university. This leads to a lot of back scratching.
2) this is a survey of 2nd level. The US is falling down the ranks of secondary schools while it's universities remain the worlds best. Apparently.

Duggys Housemate · 27-11-2012 3:46pm

professore wrote: »

Considering the population of the UK is roughly 14 times the ROI, this is hardly surprising. So they are about equal on that score. There are good universities in both countries, with some excellent ones in the UK.

However my point is more about general primary and secondary education, I would rank Ireland above England and similar to Scotland for quality, but both are well below continental European standards. For example, when you learn a language over there, you can SPEAK it afterwards!!!!

I'm talking about the kind of education that will equip you for a job in today's high tech world, not for being a ballet dancer or trombone player, laudable as these things are.

That's not what the report shows. We are ahead of Germany for instance.

Education in Ireland 11th best in world

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