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Reworking Dublin's quays

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  • 19-11-2012 5:22pm
    #1
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    What do people here think of the idea of reworking the quays to prioritise people walking, cycling and buses? The idea is that buses, cyclists and people on foot get a clearer run and a better experience, while access is kept for motorists.

    No firm plans yet, but one option been looked at includes having the north quays as a through route only for buses east bound, and those walking and cycling in both directions. The south quays would be reverted to two-way traffic.

    It is to go to some type of public consultation soon and options of some sort are expected from consultants early next year.

    I was very sceptical anything could work the whole way along the quays until I seen these concepts which came out of a blue sky type workshop last year, ran by the NTA and the city council, but not directly part of the current process and details and outline maps here. I repeat: These are NOT official options at least at this stage.

    It would require a large amount of political will and vision -- and that might be the problem in Dublin.

    There's a thread over in cycling already here, there's also a story in the Irish Times today, in the Sunday Times last year and in Cycling in Dublin back in the summer.


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    #2
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Wasn't there some weak reason all hgv's weren't banned recently, not just 5axle ones?
    If the council couldn't do this, then the rest is pie in the sky stuff I'd say.


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    #3
    Conway635
    Registered Users Posts: 400 ✭✭Conway635


    It's a very interesting idea, and I certainly wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

    I had been thinking, a couple of years ago, about something related, and my idea went like this:

    South Quays: two way buses and bikes only.

    North Quays: two way general traffic (no bus routes).

    The reason for having the south quays as the bus quay is that the north side of the river is served by LUAS very close to the quays, so having the south side as the bus corridor would have more benefit.

    But I'm open to all creative suggestions, and if this kind of thing is being thought about, it is good.

    C635


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    #4
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Wasn't there some weak reason all hgv's weren't banned recently, not just 5axle ones?
    If the council couldn't do this, then the rest is pie in the sky stuff I'd say.

    They are still looking at options to extend the ban in diffrent ways, including having it 24 hours, it would seem to be only viable once the Eastlink reverts back to the council (otherwise it'd be too costly).


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    #5
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    Conway635 wrote: »
    It's a very interesting idea, and I certainly wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

    I had been thinking, a couple of years ago, about something related, and my idea went like this:

    South Quays: two way buses and bikes only.

    North Quays: two way general traffic (no bus routes).

    The reason for having the south quays as the bus quay is that the north side of the river is served by LUAS very close to the quays, so having the south side as the bus corridor would have more benefit.

    But I'm open to all creative suggestions, and if this kind of thing is being thought about, it is good.

    C635

    I think it's a pretty sensible solution. But I would say the North quays would be more practical for buses and bikes, since they are wide enough to have separate bus and bike lanes the whole way, and allow for local access for deliveries and the like.


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    #6
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,562 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Cool Mo D wrote: »
    I think it's a pretty sensible solution. But I would say the North quays would be more practical for buses and bikes, since they are wide enough to have separate bus and bike lanes the whole way, and allow for local access for deliveries and the like.

    I'd question that statement when it comes to both Ellis Quay and Arran Quay.


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    #7
    Greenmachine
    Registered Users Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Greenmachine


    I think the whole ideal spells chaos. Look at the amount of traffic on a typical evening. Chapelizod bypass is already packed solid with traffic. It would leave no open to actually go throught chapelizod. Further anyone wishing to heading to the north of the city from this side would be forced to go up accomodation. Alot of the roads in that area are already laden with traffic. Traffic going south would be forced to go through kilmanhaim on into Kilmainham etc.
    Unless they us the M50 which is fine going south. The toll going north does not produce a win sitaution for anyone in this respect except it's private stakeholders


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    #8
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    Look at the amount of traffic on a typical evening.

    That's a reason to do something and not leave until the problem of congestion becomes even more critical to the development and liveability of the city.

    Greenmachine wrote: »
    Chapelizod bypass is already packed solid with traffic. It would leave no open to actually go throught chapelizod.

    A lot of the Chapelizod bypass traffic comes from west of the quays, but in any case nobody is suggesting to cut off access into or out of town.

    Greenmachine wrote: »
    Further anyone wishing to heading to the north of the city from this side would be forced to go up accomodation.

    Traffic going north from where to where? What's the current route and how are you sure the current route will be blocked?
    Greenmachine wrote: »
    Traffic going south would be forced to go through kilmanhaim on into Kilmainham etc.

    In the same vain: Traffic going south from where to where? What's the current route and how are you sure the current route will be blocked?

    Greenmachine wrote: »
    Unless they us the M50 which is fine going south. The toll going north does not produce a win sitaution for anyone in this respect except it's private stakeholders

    The West-link is owned by the state!


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    #9
    cson
    Registered Users Posts: 14,417 ✭✭✭✭cson


    I'd love to see College Green up to Westmoreland St (perhaps down to Georges St even) pedestrianised and turned into a type of Piazza you'd see on the continent.

    Totally will never happen but I think it'd give the City an incredible focal point if you cleared it and cobbled it. When the Central Bank move out; turn that into some kind of heritage centre. Plus it'd have the immeasurable benefit of clearing up the mess that is Westmoreland St re buses and taxi's.


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    #10
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    monument wrote: »
    What do people here think of the idea of reworking the quays to prioritise people walking, cycling and buses? The idea is that buses, cyclists and people on foot get a clearer run and a better experience, while access is kept for motorists.

    No firm plans yet, but one option been looked at includes having the north quays as a through route only for buses east bound, and those walking and cycling in both directions. The south quays would be reverted to two-way traffic.

    It is to go to some type of public consultation soon and options of some sort are expected from consultants early next year.

    I was very sceptical anything could work the whole way along the quays until I seen these concepts which came out of a blue sky type workshop last year, ran by the NTA and the city council, but not directly part of the current process and details and outline maps here. I repeat: These are NOT official options at least at this stage.

    It would require a large amount of political will and vision -- and that might be the problem in Dublin.

    There's a thread over in cycling already here, there's also a story in the Irish Times today, in the Sunday Times last year and in Cycling in Dublin back in the summer.

    Pedestrians have already got the pavement and the boardwalk. Its grand as it is.


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    #11
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Hilly Bill wrote: »

    Pedestrians have already got the pavement and the boardwalk. Its grand as it is.

    The footpaths and crossing along the river side are a good deal below 'grand'.


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    #12
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Its good enough without wanting the whole quays turned over to pedestrians and cyclists. Could you imagine the carnage and confusion it would cause . Pedestrians cross when and where they want anyway and cyclists often ride in any direction they want and where they want so it will achieve nothing but misery.


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    #13
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I remember when the quays used to work in the opposite direction to it does now. Doesn't seem that impossible to change it again. The problem is that public transport is so awkward, expensive, for many people they'll struggle to get out of the car. The quays is a main traffic route. Not one you can get rid of that easily. Any disruption around town and the quays is jammed usually.

    That said the southbound side of the quays is a little daunting on the bicycle, due to the high speeds and the crazy lane marking causing cars to wander between lanes. The northside is ok for the most part. But the southside, especially if your coming down along Guinness'es then on to parkgate and into the park is not nice for bikes.

    The first stretch in the park the cycle lane has no surface on it in either direction for best part of a year. Could they fix that before playing with the quays.


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    #14
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Its good enough without wanting the whole quays turned over to pedestrians and cyclists. Could you imagine the carnage and confusion it would cause . Pedestrians cross when and where they want anyway and cyclists often ride in any direction they want and where they want so it will achieve nothing but misery.

    There's one major problem with what you are saying: There's no plan to have the "whole quays turned over to pedestrians and cyclists."


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    #15
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Its good enough without wanting the whole quays turned over to pedestrians and cyclists. Could you imagine the carnage and confusion it would cause . Pedestrians cross when and where they want anyway and cyclists often ride in any direction they want and where they want so it will achieve nothing but misery.
    The streets of Amsterdam and Copenhagen are filled with cyclists and pedestrians and none of the townsfolk in those cities seemed miserable when I was there.

    Perhaps these simple contenentals are very good at hiding their misery and they actually look at us Irish and envy our traffic jams and polluted city centre streets.


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    #16
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Its good enough without wanting the whole quays turned over to pedestrians and cyclists. Could you imagine the carnage and confusion it would cause . Pedestrians cross when and where they want anyway and cyclists often ride in any direction they want and where they want so it will achieve nothing but misery.
    If it's one thing that's been shown consistently across the world, it's that restricting vehicular access in major urban areas and turning more space "over" to cyclists and pedestrians improves the quality of life in that area and boosts business.

    We are one of the few european countries that allows private traffic to pass practically unheeded through the centre of our capital city. It's ridiculous.


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    #17
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,915 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    For this to work they're have to be joined up thinking. They need to remove the toll from the M50 so traffic that doesn't need to enter Dublin, but is too miserable to spend €2.50 or more if they do as planned and toll each exit, doesn't start flowing back into the city. Make the alternatives more attractive and then close access, not like our usual way of closing access and then thinking about where the traffic goes.


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    #18
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Del2005 wrote: »
    For this to work they're have to be joined up thinking. They need to remove the toll from the M50 so traffic that doesn't need to enter Dublin, but is too miserable to spend €2.50 or more if they do as planned and toll each exit, doesn't start flowing back into the city. Make the alternatives more attractive and then close access, not like our usual way of closing access and then thinking about where the traffic goes.
    You don't need to go near the city to avoid the M50 toll. You can go out the far side through Lucan, or skip up through Castleknock.

    Relatively easy access to the N1/M1 via the city is part of the problem. A few simple upgrades to the Clonee and Clonsilla roads (widening, straighten out some dodgy corners), and those who want to skip the M50 toll are catered for. Then you make it quite difficult to get the N1 via the city unless you take the north circular road, and a lot of the traffic from the quays is dealt with.


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    #19
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,915 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    seamus wrote: »
    You don't need to go near the city to avoid the M50 toll. You can go out the far side through Lucan, or skip up through Castleknock.

    Relatively easy access to the N1/M1 via the city is part of the problem. A few simple upgrades to the Clonee and Clonsilla roads (widening, straighten out some dodgy corners), and those who want to skip the M50 toll are catered for.

    The roads around the back of Lucan aren't suitable for more traffic.

    The easy access to the city is only one part of the problem, people refuse to pay €2.50 yet will spend hours in traffic avoiding it!! Make the road free and the majority of people will use it. No point in having a multi lane motorway empty when all the surrounding roads are jammed.
    seamus wrote: »
    Then you make it quite difficult to get the N1 via the city unless you take the north circular road, and a lot of the traffic from the quays is dealt with.

    The problem here is that they'll do the restrictions but not think about the alternatives till after the event. If they removed the tolls, Eastlink/Tunnel/M50, then the vast majority of people who don't need to access the city can avoid it. By having tolls on the alternative routes people will rather spend time than money so drive through places they don't need.

    How about instead of messing around with the traffic in Dublin make it so that traffic doesn't enter Dublin unless it needs to get somewhere in Dublin. Make the alternatives we already have easier and cheaper to access. Then start traffic planning/restrictions.


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    #20
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    This would be an excellent idea if the DART underground had been completed including electrification of the Kildare and Maynooth lines. If the Lucan and Broombridge LUAS lines were in place, the commuter traffic that uses the quays would be fully catered for with alternatives.

    The key to these type of projects in the past in other countries has been the ability to provide alternative commuting options. Without the infrastructural development in Dublin, these do not exist to support this project.

    Nice idea, wrong time.


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    #21
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Godge wrote: »
    This would be an excellent idea if the DART underground had been completed including electrification of the Kildare and Maynooth lines. If the Lucan and Broombridge LUAS lines were in place, the commuter traffic that uses the quays would be fully catered for with alternatives.

    The key to these type of projects in the past in other countries has been the ability to provide alternative commuting options. Without the infrastructural development in Dublin, these do not exist to support this project.

    Nice idea, wrong time.

    The alternative for many will be the bicycle -- as happens in places like the Netherlands. That's a large part of this project will be about -- making the bicycle an attractive travel means for more people.

    There's around 100,000 commuters in Dublin driving shorter than 4km and more in the sub 10km range.

    Luas Broombridge is already happening and as the NTA are involved, they could look at ramping up bus services where possable, but Dublin will die if the city stands still any longer waiting for Dart Underground or Lucan Luas.


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    #22
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    monument wrote: »
    The alternative for many will be the bicycle -- as happens in places like the Netherlands. That's a large part of this project will be about -- making the bicycle an attractive travel means for more people.

    There's around 100,000 commuters in Dublin driving shorter than 4km and more in the sub 10km range.

    Luas Broombridge is already happening and as the NTA are involved, they could look at ramping up bus services where possable, but Dublin will die if the city stands still any longer waiting for Dart Underground or Lucan Luas.


    Cycling is not an alternative for many people for the following reasons:

    (1) Weather: Wind and rain in Ireland are such to make cycling an unpleasant experience for much of the year. Everyone gets back into their car on the same wet day and the roads in Dublin clog up. Have you not noticed this?

    (2) Gradient: Most commutes in Dublin involve travel in the morning towards the city centre and travel away from the city centre in the evening. This means uphill cycling in the evenings when people are tired.

    (3) Jobs: Many jobs require the use of a car. Unless people are going to leave their cars in work permanently, use of a bicycle is less of an option.

    (4) Population Density: The same problem that applies to public transport applies also to commuting by bicycle. Public transport needs densely-packed suburbs to merit connections, cycling needs densely-packed suburbs to shorten commutes to cycling range.

    (5) Time: Because of (1), (2) and (5), cycling will take much longer for a significant portion of the population (allow for shower and change for inclement weather).

    Now you can argue that the above reasons apply everywhere and that is doesn't stop people cycling in the Netherlands, Germany, whereever. Yes, the same factors apply, but it is the degree and influence of each that determines the percentage of people for whom cycling is an option.

    For example, in a city with clement weather and little wind, built on a flat plain, highly-organised with densely-packed suburbs meaning everyone lives within 5km of work, it is only those with one leg or a heart condition who will not be able to cycle.

    In a city with regular bouts of inclement wind and rain, high gradients for homeward journeys, northern latitude for dark evenings from September to March, low density of housing and work, etc. then there will be a significant number, probably a significant majority of people for whom cycling is not an option.

    Improving bus services should be the number one priority followed by other public transport initiatives especially rail. For example, requiring cyclists in bus lanes to pull in to the kerb in bus lanes to allow buses to pass would do much more for a large number of commuters than any cycling initiative.


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    #23
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I'm very slow, with a few old injuries. My 14k (each way) 28 in total cycle commute across the city takes much less time than bus or train. Its at worse on a par with driving and usually quicker. It would be even quicker if I got off my butt and did it more often = got fitter. Statistics show that we don't have worse weather than other cities where cycling is more popular. For most people (including myself), its simply a matter of habit of taking the car because we can. We've got lazy. You'd swear we lived in the Himalayas. http://cyclingindublin.com/myths-weather/


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    #24
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Godge wrote: »
    ...For example, requiring cyclists in bus lanes to pull in to the kerb in bus lanes to allow buses to pass would do much more for a large number of commuters than any cycling initiative.

    That's hilarious.


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    #25
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Godge wrote: »
    (1) Weather: Wind and rain in Ireland are such to make cycling an unpleasant experience for much of the year. Everyone gets back into their car on the same wet day and the roads in Dublin clog up. Have you not noticed this?

    As BostonB links to: http://cyclingindublin.com/myths-distances/

    Also, I've noticed more and more all weather cyclists in Dublin.

    Godge wrote: »
    (2) Gradient: Most commutes in Dublin involve travel in the morning towards the city centre and travel away from the city centre in the evening. This means uphill cycling in the evenings when people are tired.

    Besides a few areas, Dublin is relatively flat.

    I'm not suggesting we're going to get many 15km+ commuters, but shorter and more manageable distances of less than 10km. This is the context:
    • Around 45,000 people driving 2km or less to work in Dublin
    • Almost 100,000 people drive 4km or less to work in Dublin

    We have a major inactivity and obesity problem and you're worried about mainly office workers being too tired to cycle short distances in the evening.

    Godge wrote: »
    (3) Jobs: Many jobs require the use of a car. Unless people are going to leave their cars in work permanently, use of a bicycle is less of an option.

    Very few jobs require the use of a car. There's nothing to make me think there's a larger percentage of city centre jobs that require a car for work in Dublin compared to say Dutch cities.

    Godge wrote: »
    (4) Population Density: The same problem that applies to public transport applies also to commuting by bicycle. Public transport needs densely-packed suburbs to merit connections, cycling needs densely-packed suburbs to shorten commutes to cycling range.

    Dublin
    Density: 4,588/km2

    Amsterdam
    Density: 3,506/km2

    Within the canals around 87% of commuters travel 10km or less, and over 72% travel 5km or less. Within the M50 (and outside the canals) over 80% travel 10km or less and over 50% travel only 5km or less. Even in the outer suburban areas more than 50% travel less than 10km and nearly 34% travel less than 5km. More here: http://cyclingindublin.com/myths-distances/

    We're talking about cycling distances for a huge percentage of commuters.

    Godge wrote: »
    (5) Time: Because of (1), (2) and (5), cycling will take much longer for a significant portion of the population (allow for shower and change for inclement weather).

    That's just not true and the hard facts are against you on this.According to the Department of Transport:
    • Data from the 2006 Census reveals that, for journeys within the Dublin Canal Ring, cyclists reached an average speed of 12 km/h compared to just 15km/h for cars.
    • For trips within the M50, the 2006 Census reveals average speed for cyclists of 14km/h compared to 18km/h for cars.

    We also know speed isn't everything, loads of people choice Luas over faster buses.

    Godge wrote: »
    Now you can argue that the above reasons apply everywhere and that is doesn't stop people cycling in the Netherlands, Germany, whereever. Yes, the same factors apply, but it is the degree and influence of each that determines the percentage of people for whom cycling is an option.

    For example, in a city with clement weather and little wind, built on a flat plain, highly-organised with densely-packed suburbs meaning everyone lives within 5km of work, it is only those with one leg or a heart condition who will not be able to cycle.

    I don't know any large Dutch or Dainish cities which match this description. Snow is common in Copenhagen and it's known as a windy city.

    And there are people who cycle who have heart condition and those who cannot use their legs.

    You're making excuses.

    Godge wrote: »
    ...northern latitude for dark evenings from September to March...

    The sun set at 15:54 today in Copenhagen.... nearly sure its northern latitude is greater than Dublin's and Amsterdam isn't a great distance from Dublin on that scale. Some of the Dutch cities with the highest percentage of cycling modal share give or take on the same latitude as Dublin.

    This is a very strange excuse I have not heard before but it's very easily debunked.

    Godge wrote: »
    Improving bus services should be the number one priority followed by other public transport initiatives especially rail.

    No, it should not, not when the cheapest, most healthy, most space and energy efficient form of transport -- for both the end user and the state -- is been left behind.


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    #26
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    Godge wrote: »
    For example, requiring cyclists in bus lanes to pull in to the kerb in bus lanes to allow buses to pass would do much more for a large number of commuters than any cycling initiative.

    The rest of your post is pure tripe imo*, however this is quote is just borderline ridiculous. Why can't cars/SUVs etc. move over in their lanes to allow buses safely overtake cyclists in the bus/cycle lane? My two wheeled contraption isn't causing buses to be delayed, too many cars do, ah but road tax Joe, yada yada yada:rolleyes:!!


    *Being honest I can't blame you for writing the rest of your post, I for one would have 100% agreed with you two years ago, that was before Network Direct and CIE fare increases put me on a bike. The transition was helped by many trips to Danish, Dutch and Flemish cities over the last few years, those cities gave me a real feel for "normal" cycling. Seeing the culture in those cities encouraged me to sign up to Dublinbikes and get a feel for that slow style of cycling in my normal clothes, and I loved it. I've since thrown away my mountain bike for my work commute and invested in a Pashley to make my commute even more comfortable.

    Before all that I l thought cycling in Dublin was dangerous, miserable in the rain and sweaty and only for those who wore lycra and spent €3,000 on carbon roadbikes. I couldn't have been more wrong, it's actually a real safe city for cycling, a nice tweed cap keeps the rain off my hair and a heavy "Dutch" style bike still beats the bus from Ballyfermot to town! Give it a try Godge, sure the worst that can happen is you might enjoy it!


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    #27
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    BostonB wrote: »
    I'm very slow, with a few old injuries. My 14k (each way) 28 in total cycle commute across the city takes much less time than bus or train. It's at worse on a par with driving and usually quicker. It would be even quicker if I got off my butt and did it more often = got fitter. Statistics show that we don't have worse weather than other cities where cycling is more popular. For most people (including myself), its simply a matter of habit of taking the car because we can. We've got lazy. You'd swear we lived in the Himalayas. http://cyclingindublin.com/myths-weather/
    Biased website. And the Luddite outlook is getting a bit out of hand here. Never mind that bicycling overall (when food and water, and means to transport same to bicyclist are factored in) is not all that efficient.

    And what do the Himalayas have to do with it? Most people travel by yak or donkey up there.


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    #28
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    The figures are from the BBC and the Dublin City Council?

    Never mind all the Cyclophobia. If you can beat a a train never mind buses cycling slowly, over 14k. The efficiency that should be looked at is the public transport system. Accusations of Luddism is certainly applicable considering the glacial pace of progress in public transport.


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    #29
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    CIE wrote: »
    Biased website. And the Luddite outlook is getting a bit out of hand here.

    The modern day Luddites are those looking to keep the status quo, those rejecting the more efficient mode of transport...

    CIE wrote: »
    Never mind that bicycling overall (when food and water, and means to transport same to bicyclist are factored in) is not all that efficient.

    You are wrong. Those things have been factored in to research which still shows cycling is the most efficient.

    In Irish research (titled: A comparison of carbon dioxide emissions associated with motorised transport modes and cycling in Ireland) the only mode which could match cycling was the Dart with 7 carrages and at max loads. But as we know, the Dart also has to run off peak and not even all peak trains run near full -- so, overall cycling is more efficient.

    BTW the research did not include the food and water required for people to walk to Dart stations or bus stops or that used by those who drive or use public transport and then go to the gym or a run after work. ;)

    Cycling is also a more efficient use of road space compared to cars at least.

    EDIT: I'm joking above about energy use of those who drive and then go to the gym or a run etc, but the way we should be looking at it is that cycling, running and going to the gym are all positive energy use -- we want more and more people to be active and we want all the benefits that comes with that. We want to reduce the amount of inactive or under active people who's energy is going into making more fat.


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    #30
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Well done Godge, I think you've managed to put every single fallacy about Dublin cycling into a single post. That's efficiency. The following items are all incorrect:

    - Dublin is too wet & windy
    - Dublin is too hilly
    - Most people need a car for their job
    - Dublin commutes are too long for cycling
    - Cycling takes longer than other modes
    - Busses are delayed by cyclists


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    #31
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    seamus wrote: »
    If it's one thing that's been shown consistently across the world, it's that restricting vehicular access in major urban areas and turning more space "over" to cyclists and pedestrians improves the quality of life in that area and boosts business.

    We are one of the few european countries that allows private traffic to pass practically unheeded through the centre of our capital city. It's ridiculous.

    Grafton street, Mary street, Henry street, Temple Bar. Do you want O'Connell street for pedestrians and bikes only as well? You have bike lanes and pavements, what more do you want? What about the quality of life for the people who lives on the routes that the cars will be diverted through? Extra cars being diverted passed their houses just to please some cyclists and pedestrians who only care about themselves at the best of times.


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