Extra services for Nenagh branch!

06-03-2012 7:40pm

I was watching Swiss Railway Journeys yesterday and one of their electric lines had a Kilkenny-style system which required changing ends. With a railcar it's not much of an issue anymore.

I'm not 100% aware of the ex Dublin track layout at Ballybrophy though, think I'll have to fire up Train Simulator 2012 and test it.

Jehuty42 · 06-03-2012 7:44pm

I wasn't aware there was an Irish route for TS2012- do tell!

flyingsnail · 06-03-2012 7:57pm

Jehuty42 wrote: »

I wasn't aware there was an Irish route for TS2012- do tell!

here you go
http://www.uktrainsim.com/filelib-info.php?form_fileid=25225

LXFlyer · 06-03-2012 8:03pm

Karsini wrote: »

I was watching Swiss Railway Journeys yesterday and one of their electric lines had a Kilkenny-style system which required changing ends. With a railcar it's not much of an issue anymore.

I'm not 100% aware of the ex Dublin track layout at Ballybrophy though, think I'll have to fire up Train Simulator 2012 and test it.

Ex Dublin, a train arrives either into the down platform or the loop platform. Driver switches ends.

Train then reverses over trailing crossover onto the up line until it has cleared the connection from the Nenagh bay platform. Driver switches ends again.

Train then reverses a second time and proceeds into Nenagh bay platform. Driver switches ends again.

Train then proceeds onto Nenagh branch. Add to that contacting CTC several times during the whole manoeuvre.

Jehuty42 · 06-03-2012 8:13pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

here you go
http://www.uktrainsim.com/filelib-info.php?form_fileid=25225

Oh yeah, I'd seen that before, but got turned off by having to download about 50 different things through a portal that puts you in a download queue and then having to work out dependencies and all sorts of messing about.

Our man in Havana · 06-03-2012 8:14pm

It is a rather complex procedure (having witnessed it many times) that can take some time to complete.

06-03-2012 9:01pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Ex Dublin, a train arrives either into the down platform or the loop platform. Driver switches ends.

Train then reverses over trailing crossover onto the up line until it has cleared the connection from the Nenagh bay platform. Driver switches ends again.

Train then reverses a second time and proceeds into Nenagh bay platform. Driver switches ends again.

Train then proceeds onto Nenagh branch. Add to that contacting CTC several times during the whole manoeuvre.

Thanks for that, just tried it in the game there. Needlessly complicated.

Our man in Havana · 06-03-2012 9:08pm

It also needs the co-operation of the signalman in Roscrea to release the ETS in Ballybrophy.

LXFlyer · 07-03-2012 12:04am

Correct.

Hungerford · 07-03-2012 1:26am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Maybe you should comment on it or at least show us a source for your claim.

Okay, after a bit of research. The original track layout at Ballybrophy appears to have allowed trains from any platform bar what is now the Nenagh branch bay to access both the mainline and the branch. These connections were apparently severed by Irish Rail in the 1980s.

More recently, there appears to have been a crossover allowing trains to move from the Cork-bound line onto the Dublin-bound one and then via another crossover onto the branch.

According to Jack Doherty, a poster on the Rail Users Ireland who appears to be involved in the community rail partnership for the branch, these were removed because

"it was a danger becuase the cross over from the down line to the up line for access to the NEnagh line ,the crossovers were both facing points!"

Judgement Day · 07-03-2012 12:39pm

Is nobody in favour of my direct curve in the Dublin direction? It seems so obvious to me but obviously not.

Not as straight as my red line but in that direction - it's not rocket science and should have been done at the time the last, pointless and expensive rationalisation was done.

LXFlyer · 07-03-2012 12:40pm

It all boils down to whether the line has a long term future.

If it does, then yes of course a facing crossover and ultimately a direct curve should be installed, but at the moment that will all depend on whether the new services prove successful or not.

Then it will depend on funding availability. A direct curve would not exactly be cheap.

Personally I'd prefer to spend the money initially on getting the line speed increased.

corktina · 07-03-2012 12:41pm

rocket science rocks, but did there not used to be a direct curve this side of the tress? It looks as if there might and that alignment might be cheaper.

LXFlyer · 07-03-2012 12:45pm

No - every train stopped at Ballybrophy and reversed directly onto the branch.

Jehuty42 · 07-03-2012 1:49pm

Karsini wrote: »

Thanks for that, just tried it in the game there. Needlessly complicated.

Is this your video then?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icUdTN1eVhk

Good demonstration of the manoeuvre.

LXFlyer · 07-03-2012 2:04pm

What used to happen (before the last remodelling) is the following:

Branch train would arrive into current branch bay platform. Passengers transferred to Dublin bound train.

The branch train would then shunt onto the branch, stop, and then reverse directly across the (now removed) connection to the Up main line, across the crossover and into the loop platform and await the arrival of the train from Dublin, before then proceeding back across the crossover and onto the branch for Limerick.

Our man in Havana · 07-03-2012 3:45pm

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Is this your video then?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icUdTN1eVhk

Good demonstration of the manoeuvre.

It is missing a signal for the shunt from the up mainline onto the branch marked NGF 1.

corktina · 07-03-2012 5:47pm

lxflyer wrote: »

No - every train stopped at Ballybrophy and reversed directly onto the branch.

for all time? or just recently?

07-03-2012 5:57pm

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Is this your video then?:

Good demonstration of the manoeuvre.

Yep, that's me.

Hungerford · 07-03-2012 5:58pm

corktina wrote: »

rocket science rocks, but did there not used to be a direct curve this side of the tress? It looks as if there might and that alignment might be cheaper.

No. There was an engine shed there and some sidings based on the old OSI map of the area online.

LXFlyer · 07-03-2012 6:25pm

corktina wrote: »

for all time? or just recently?

Any direct Dublin-Limerick or v.v. service via Nenagh had to stop at Ballybrophy, and the locomotive had to run around the train before proceeding onto/off the branch.

There was never any connection to the mainline that bypassed the station.

corktina · 07-03-2012 7:41pm

i've got my head around it now. IIRC this was originally the branch to Ballina/Killaloe and was used for an extention to Limerick later, hence the awkward junction

Hungerford · 07-03-2012 10:42pm

corktina wrote: »

i've got my head around it now. IIRC this was originally the branch to Ballina/Killaloe and was used for an extention to Limerick later, hence the awkward junction

I actually thought it was part of a scheme on the part of the W&LR to build a route to Dublin which minimised the amount of running they would have to do on the GS&WR lines.

The W&LR had a fondness for bizarre junctions - their creations also included Limerick Junction and Newcastle West on the North Kerry line, which required a reversal for no sensible reason.

pigtown · 07-03-2012 10:52pm

Would a stop in the vicinity of Castletroy with a shuttlebus to the University and Industrial estates in the area be prohibitively expensive? The location of Colbert train station is a big turn off for potential commuters I'd imagine.
(Would do up a map but not sure whether they are allowed with this new copyright law. Anyone know the story here?)

mikemac1 · 07-03-2012 11:04pm

I don't know the cost but there was talk a few years ago of closing Castleconnell and opening a new station in Annacotty

Makes sense realy

Our man in Havana · 07-03-2012 11:10pm

Killarney is just mad for the setup there.

blue5000 · 07-03-2012 11:18pm

pigtown wrote: »

Would a stop in the vicinity of Castletroy with a shuttlebus to the University and Industrial estates in the area be prohibitively expensive? The location of Colbert train station is a big turn off for potential commuters I'd imagine.
(Would do up a map but not sure whether they are allowed with this new copyright law. Anyone know the story here?)

Good idea, maybe somewhere near the level crossing on the N7?
Does anybody know why it's such a slow train, I regularly pass it on the cloughjordan-nenagh rd, I reckon it's only doing 35-40 mph.

pigtown · 07-03-2012 11:21pm

I was thinking maybe a stop at the Ballysimon Interchange of the M7 so Lim/Junction trains and N24 traffic can also use it, with a shuttle that takes the motorway to UL/industrial estate, with a possibility of continuing on to a stop near the Parkway, increasing the customer base of the shuttle. I know plenty of students from Ennis that don't take the train because it stops so far from college.

Just a suggestion to try and make use of the extensive rail lines in the city that have the potential to really make a difference to public transport in Limerick.

07-03-2012 11:23pm

blue5000 wrote: »

Good idea, maybe somewhere near the level crossing on the N7?
Does anybody know why it's such a slow train, I regularly pass it on the cloughjordan-nenagh rd, I reckon it's only doing 35-40 mph.

Track quality, the track is very bad in some places. In others it has been renewed but has not been strengthened as it should be.

dowlingm · 07-03-2012 11:43pm

openstreetmap might be the best option if you're afraid of copyright.

The line is further than you'd think from UL/Plassey. There's an industrial estate cocked out EAST of the line that makes me want to punch a planner in the face - I can't see what the rationale was when there is still unused lands in the Plassey park etc.

Ideally the inbound service to Limerick would originate from Portlaoise/Laois Train Care via a direct curve rather than the current turnback system which misses out Roscrea. The problem with a shuttle service is that it would either be dedicated to the train and subject to its delays or part of an existing bus service with the possibility of screwing up its timetable. The trouble is that any money spend should be contingent on the branch continuing to serve for some time to justify the investment and the reality is that given the early signs of the commuter service that is looking less and less likely.

Dublin Spotter · 08-03-2012 12:08am

No point in wasting time talking about the above as the line will be closed by end of the year....people who think otherwise need to wake up and smell the coffee...

Judgement Day · 08-03-2012 12:20am

Dublin Spotter wrote: »

No point in wasting time talking about the above as the line will be closed by end of the year....people who think otherwise need to wake up and smell the coffee...

Any firm evidence for this?

dowlingm · 08-03-2012 12:30am

according to Mark Gleeson the 22000 is slower on the branch than a 27 but the timetable is 10mins less... which (22k slower) makes sense as the gearing is probably more advantageous on a commuter railcar for a route which never gets north of 50mph.

FIASCO.

pigtown · 08-03-2012 12:53am

dowlingm wrote: »

openstreetmap might be the best option if you're afraid of copyright.

The line is further than you'd think from UL/Plassey. There's an industrial estate cocked out EAST of the line that makes me want to punch a planner in the face - I can't see what the rationale was when there is still unused lands in the Plassey park etc.

That's Annacotty Industrial Estate. I think it might be older than the one at Plassey but can't be sure. Quite successful by all accounts.

Ideally the inbound service to Limerick would originate from Portlaoise/Laois Train Care via a direct curve rather than the current turnback system which misses out Roscrea. The problem with a shuttle service is that it would either be dedicated to the train and subject to its delays or part of an existing bus service with the possibility of screwing up its timetable. The trouble is that any money spend should be contingent on the branch continuing to serve for some time to justify the investment and the reality is that given the early signs of the commuter service that is looking less and less likely.

I have attached a map but can't inbed it.

Solution for shuttle: incorporate it into local service. Have a clockwise and counter-clockwise service.

Stops clockwise from bottom:
Ballysimon. M7/N24, Nenagh & Limerick Junction rail services.
East city (can't think of a name). All of the industrial parks and retail centres on the Ballysimon road.
Childers Road. Retail park and residential area.
Parkway. Shopping centre, retail parks, future giant shopping centre (disaster in the making but thats a different story). Ennis/Galway rail services, residential areas.
University.
Plassey. National technological park.
Annacotty. Residential

Don't know anything about how much it would cost and is probably too expensive but I feel it would offer great coverage for what is a large sprawling suburb with a few major destinations within it.

Trying to timetable a shuttle service is a little difficult though as while Limerick-L/J trains and vice versa pass the Ballysimon area within 10-15 minutes of each other, Nenagh trains are more random.

I know crayoning is very easy to do and all sorts of off-the-wall extravagant proposals are often talked about but I don't think this would cost all that much money. Then again I would say that wouldn't I. Anyone who knows more about this sort of thing care to put me straight? Preferably about the logistics of such a development rather than a pessimistic 'it'll never happen, why are you even thinking about it?' response.

highlydebased · 08-03-2012 10:44am

If anyone wants to get a train to anywhere from the Castletroy side why on earth would they get a shuttle bus and a slow train when they could simply get the city bus and go to the train station. While these are somewhat commendable ideas they will never happen, I can guarantee that.

pigtown · 08-03-2012 2:19pm

highlydebased wrote: »

If anyone wants to get a train to anywhere from the Castletroy side why on earth would they get a shuttle bus and a slow train when they could simply get the city bus and go to the train station. While these are somewhat commendable ideas they will never happen, I can guarantee that.

Well the idea of the shuttle bus is to increase the catchment area of the rail network. I'm not sure which train you are referring to as a slow train but whatever train they get from the station they could also get by using the shuttle. As it is people are reluctant to get the train to Colbert and then the bus out to Castletroy so this is an alternative.

Obviously the faster the train is the more likely people are to use it but what I'm trying to do is make people aware of the possibilites there are to utilise the train line more and thus save it from the inevitable closure which seems to be the consensus on here.

You're probably 100% correct that it will never happen but I just don't understand why officials in either the county/city councils or the Department of Transport have never really explored alternative uses and services that could be provided relatively easily.

Boulevardier · 08-03-2012 3:34pm

Judgment day, the track you suggest would make more sense if the station was moved a mile or so North, or perhaps Ballybrophy station should be closed, and we could have Portlaoise as the passenger changeover station.

In any case, direct Dublin-Limerick trains via Nenagh used to run on Sundays back in the 1980s. A direct service should therefore be doable even now.

dowlingm · 08-03-2012 4:05pm

IE Nenagh "Commuter"
dep Nenagh 0745 dep Birdhill 0812 dep Castleconnell 0820 arr Limerick 0840
BE 323 (ex Birr)
dep Nenagh 0745 dep Birdhill 0800 - runs express - arr Limerick 0835

Sheer madness. One arm of CIE running head to head with another. The bus which in theory should be more flexible, make more stops bypasses Plassey/Castletroy. What should be is that the northern part of the 323 should deliver Birr/Borrisokane people to meet the train at Nenagh and IE commit to lifting service speed to get into Limerick at 0825-30 to compensate for Limerick Station being a little remote from the city centre.

EDIT: Incidentally, does anyone know why the Nenagh train holds until 0745 - is it an issue with a slot from Killonan-Limerick?

Boulevardier · 08-03-2012 4:51pm

A stop as near as possible to Castletroy is a very good idea. I worked in the NIHE (now UL) some years ago, and there is no doubt that academics and visitors to the college tend to shun buses but are inveterate train users. They would leap at the chance to get to/from UL without having to go through central Limerick and then use taxis as at present.

LXFlyer · 08-03-2012 4:54pm

Boulevardier wrote: »

Judgment day, the track you suggest would make more sense if the station was moved a mile or so North, or perhaps Ballybrophy station should be closed, and we could have Portlaoise as the passenger changeover station.

In any case, direct Dublin-Limerick trains via Nenagh used to run on Sundays back in the 1980s. A direct service should therefore be doable even now.

Until the 1980s the track layout permitted Dublin-Nenagh-Limerick trains to enter the branch with only one reversal. That track layout no longer exists. Now it needs three very slow reversals as outlined above.

Solving that would cost €3m (crossover, signalling and interlocking) which frankly would be better spent on upgrading track on the branch in my opinion.

LXFlyer · 08-03-2012 4:55pm

dowlingm wrote: »

IE Nenagh "Commuter"
dep Nenagh 0745 dep Birdhill 0812 dep Castleconnell 0820 arr Limerick 0840
BE 323 (ex Birr)
dep Nenagh 0745 dep Birdhill 0800 - runs express - arr Limerick 0835

Sheer madness. One arm of CIE running head to head with another. The bus which in theory should be more flexible, make more stops bypasses Plassey/Castletroy. What should be is that the northern part of the 323 should deliver Birr/Borrisokane people to meet the train at Nenagh and IE commit to lifting service speed to get into Limerick at 0825-30 to compensate for Limerick Station being a little remote from the city centre.

EDIT: Incidentally, does anyone know why the Nenagh train holds until 0745 - is it an issue with a slot from Killonan-Limerick?

It was (seemingly) the optimal time to leave Nenagh that passengers suggested.

Boulevardier · 08-03-2012 5:01pm

Lxflyer, I flatly disagree with you. I think that the running of direct trains to and from Dublin is key to the future of this entire route. Without this, the critical mass of business on the line simply isn't going to appear.

People need to know that they can hop on a train in Kingsbridge and hop off in Roscrea, Nenagh or somewhere close to UL. Otherwise, car or bus will continue to make more sense to most people.

LXFlyer · 08-03-2012 5:39pm

dowlingm wrote: »

according to Mark Gleeson the 22000 is slower on the branch than a 27 but the timetable is 10mins less... which (22k slower) makes sense as the gearing is probably more advantageous on a commuter railcar for a route which never gets north of 50mph.

FIASCO.

There are have been issues with 22k performance where the schedules (presumably simulated by the computer) and subsequent real life performance bear no resemblance. They seem to be where there are significant numbers of TSRs (where the train is accelerating and decelerating regularly) and serious track curvature.

The DSER had this problem when the 22k sets started there and there had to be changes, and it appears that the same thing is happening on the Nenagh branch. If it persists I would assume a revised schedule will appear with the train starting out of Limerick earlier.

These things can happen - but it is up to the railway company to fix them asap. The schedulers need to find out where the train is losing time and why, and then address the schedule accordingly.

Incidentally I would suggest MG is not quite the ultimate oracle of knowledge on everything rail related. He has his own agendas, which probably mainly stem from not being involved personally. Ranting on about it, after two days is frankly daft, as is blaming the Minister for the train being late!

Anyhow, from a loading perspective I would suggest that one needs to look at the performance over an extended period of time, and two days does not exactly figure as an extended period. Let's wait and see.

LXFlyer · 08-03-2012 5:41pm

Boulevardier wrote: »

Lxflyer, I flatly disagree with you. I think that the running of direct trains to and from Dublin is key to the future of this entire route. Without this, the critical mass of business on the line simply isn't going to appear.

People need to know that they can hop on a train in Kingsbridge and hop off in Roscrea, Nenagh or somewhere close to UL. Otherwise, car or bus will continue to make more sense to most people.

Well where do they get the €3m from to do that for trains from Dublin? Are you seriously suggesting spending that amount of money now, and, if it doesn't work, then saying, "ah well".

We don't that kind of money to spend! It is not a small matter.

Better in my mind to see how the thing performs in the medium term with minimal investment and then make decisions such as that.

pigtown · 08-03-2012 7:07pm

dowlingm wrote: »

IE Nenagh "Commuter"
dep Nenagh 0745 dep Birdhill 0812 dep Castleconnell 0820 arr Limerick 0840
BE 323 (ex Birr)
dep Nenagh 0745 dep Birdhill 0800 - runs express - arr Limerick 0835

Sheer madness. One arm of CIE running head to head with another. The bus which in theory should be more flexible, make more stops bypasses Plassey/Castletroy. What should be is that the northern part of the 323 should deliver Birr/Borrisokane people to meet the train at Nenagh and IE commit to lifting service speed to get into Limerick at 0825-30 to compensate for Limerick Station being a little remote from the city centre.

EDIT: Incidentally, does anyone know why the Nenagh train holds until 0745 - is it an issue with a slot from Killonan-Limerick?

Does the bus use the motorway? If yes then how can it only be 5 minutes faster than the painfully slow train? If no then why not?

Judgement Day · 08-03-2012 7:21pm

Boulevardier wrote: »

Lxflyer, I flatly disagree with you. I think that the running of direct trains to and from Dublin is key to the future of this entire route. Without this, the critical mass of business on the line simply isn't going to appear.

People need to know that they can hop on a train in Kingsbridge and hop off in Roscrea, Nenagh or somewhere close to UL. Otherwise, car or bus will continue to make more sense to most people.

I agree with your earlier point - closing or moving north of Ballybrophy station - and the only future that the Nenagh branch has is as part of a direct Dublin/Limerick route. This will not happen with the tinkering about that is now underway to placate Alan Kelly. I wonder if the great man uses the train himself - I suspect not.

dowlingm · 08-03-2012 7:30pm

ah but lxflyer the Alan Kelly express to Croke Park should have given them some idea of the real world performance, and added some contingency. They could have also used some test mileage of the new 22s to simulate and then pulled them off the road if they were falling behind. When the changes you rightly suggest were made that conservative schedule could then have been accelerated but with the time ex Ballybrophy staying as is. As it stands the wheeze of matching IE's wish for an additional suburban to AK's wish for a direct service is now playing havoc with the suburban schedule - IE & AK have overpromised and underdelivered and it's not just affecting Nenaghites but the bread and butter suburban network.

The solution they found to Ballybrophy's limitations (direct NB and return the train via Limerick Junction and use shuttles on the way back) was quite good considering the issues involved but the 1605 and 1705 trains out of Limerick are just rubbish - I would love to hear the reasoning as to why the 9-5 market in Limerick was so cavalierly abandoned and even those who get off early can't access Roscrea except on a Saturday. The situation MAY improve if Nenagh-Ballybrophy is CWRed and line speed pushed to 50 or better still 60 (much bustitution though!) which would allow the train crossing points to be shifted about but by then the beancounters will have assembled their case and Varadkar will be brought in to be the heavy gang who took poor Alan's train away despite how hard he fought etc etc.

dowlingm · 08-03-2012 7:47pm

Arrivals in Limerick (per timetable)

Thurles-Limerick Junction-Limerick 0829
Galway-Limerick 0835
Nenagh-Limerick 0840

I'm not conversant with Limerick approach capacity, perhaps someone could weigh in on the feasibility of spacing these closer. The Thurles-Limerick timing seems reasonable so I don't see scope for much to shave there. But optimising the inbound for 9-5 workers won't do much unless there's a train at the other side.

pigtown · 08-03-2012 8:40pm

Would an increase in direct Limerick- Dublin trains be detrimental to the viability of the Limerick-Lim/Junction route? By trying to boost traffic on one line is there a possibility of IÉ harming what could possibly be described as a competing line?

pigtown · 08-03-2012 8:45pm

Boulevardier wrote: »

A stop as near as possible to Castletroy is a very good idea. I worked in the NIHE (now UL) some years ago, and there is no doubt that academics and visitors to the college tend to shun buses but are inveterate train users. They would leap at the chance to get to/from UL without having to go through central Limerick and then use taxis as at present.

That's very true. Most people would jump at the chance to be able to avoid the ridiculous traffic and parking situation in UL. The existing bus services are too unreliable and also don't stop at alot of the major areas in Castletroy.

Extra services for Nenagh branch!

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