Ireland to go down the Electric car route?

kleefarr · 28-04-2009 10:02am #1

I'm hearing reports on the radio this morning, that Ireland are possibly thinking about going down the electric car route in a big way and becoming the leading country in this field.

Personally I don't think we're ready. Where will this electricity come from? I doubt it will be from renewable sources. So the switch to electric cars won't help the environment much, as the pollution produced will be coming from the plants that provide the electricity for the cars in my opinion.

Would you vote for all electric cars in Ireland?

I wouldn't. Not yet anyway. Would it be better to go the way of Honda and hydrogen?

Zube · 28-04-2009 10:05am

kleefarr wrote: »

I'm hearing reports on the radio this morning, that Ireland are possibly thinking about going down the electric car route in a big way and becoming the leading country in this field.

There aren't any real electric cars yet, so this is just PR for now.

Fazer6 · 28-04-2009 10:08am

Zube wrote: »

There aren't any real electric cars yet, so this is just PR for now.

I've seen this car on the TV.....

http://www.teslamotors.com/

fazer6.

cantdecide · 28-04-2009 10:09am

The technology is exciting but ffs, you know they want us all driving little apology-mobiles. When will they see that for the majority, little electric boxes are unsuitable for Irish motorists.

kleefarr · 28-04-2009 10:17am

Fazer6 wrote: »

I've seen this car on the TV.....

http://www.teslamotors.com/

fazer6.

Looks good. But the 244 mile range is a bit off putting ( Honda clarity same). How long would it take to charge up as well? That's the beauty about the Honda clarity, it's just like a normal car, but uses hydrogen. Seems to fill up like a petrol car as well.

Honda Clarity

BostonB · 28-04-2009 10:18am

Small diesels are the way to go for now. Like the old Lupo 3L. But cheaper. Most people could cycle most of journeys they could use an electric car for (sort journeys and commuting). Far cheaper to provide those facilities than those for electric cars. Far cheaper running costs, very consistent journey times. Etc. Electric cars aren't ready for the masses. Electric bicycles are far more practical than electric cars for many joruneys. Obviously even with perfect facilities not everyone can cycle. Obviously for long distance not practical either.

alias no.9 · 28-04-2009 10:19am

This could go one of two ways...

1. An unmittigated disaster, loads on government money pumped into a bigh white elephant (or should that be green) at the behest of the ministry for potatoes.

2. We could be the pioneers. We get buy in from the manufacturers who see Ireland as a proving ground, large enough to be a useful test market, but small enough to manage as a test market. The government invests in infrastructure (through a new semi-state which would go on to use their learnings to roll the technology out in other regions, creating a financial return for Ireland) and the manufacturers in the vehicles. However, does any manufacturer have the money to make a serious investment at the moment?

kleefarr wrote: »

I wouldn't. Not yet anyway. Would it be better to go the way of Honda and hydrogen?

Tell me, where does the hydrogen come from?

TPD · 28-04-2009 10:19am

kleefarr wrote: »

Looks good. But the 244 mile range is a bit off putting. How long would it take to charge up as well? That's the beauty about the Hond clarity, it's just like a normal car, but uses hydrogen. Seems to fill up like a petrol car as well.

Honda Clarity

The infrastructure would need to change, and petrol stations would become battery swapping stations. Either that or some crazy fast charging system at the pumps, and just keep a trickle going at home overnight.

JimmyCrackCorn! · 28-04-2009 10:21am

They just dont work well yet.

Chicken and egg story.

Need better technology and infrastructure to make them work, needs a massive take up to fund infrastructure and technology.

sparklepants · 28-04-2009 10:33am

kleefarr wrote: »

Personally I don't think we're ready. Where will this electricity come from? I doubt it will be from renewable sources.

It will come from renewables, or that's the plan anyway. With 40% of electricity coming from wind in 2020, electric cars can be charged when there's excess wind power using smart meters, or at night time.

So the switch to electric cars won't help the environment much, as the pollution produced will be coming from the plants that provide the electricity for the cars in my opinion.

Even using electricity from fossil fuels electric cars are more efficient and better for the environment than IC engines. You can produce electricity at around 55% efficiency using gas, compared to an efficiency of maybe 20% for a petrol engine.

Would you vote for all electric cars in Ireland?

I'll vote yes, but it won't be all electric cars- even a 10% target would be extremely ambitious and would take at least a decade to achieve.

spank_inferno · 28-04-2009 10:36am

Wont work & cant work

1) Is there enough lithium on the planet to manufacture the millions of kilo's of battery's necessary to power Irelands fleet of cars?
Even with the next generation of more efficient lithium batteries coming downstream I doubt it!

2) The vehicles lack the versatility to make them viable.

3) The cost of the switch in infrascture would be too enormous. (including garages for maintenance)

4) Where does the electricity come from???
At the moment we have the most expensive electricity costs on the continent. This reduces the viability of electric cars.
And aswell as that almost all of our power is generated by that government monopoly ESB burning millions of tonnes of Oil & Coal!

Powering an electric car off a power supply almost entirely fueled by burning carbon only moves the co2 problem further down the chain

IMO fueling the next generation of vehicles from Hydrogen instead of Electricity is the best longterm hope for zero emmisions transport

In the here and now, smaller diesel engines would go a long way too

BostonB · 28-04-2009 10:37am

alias no.9 wrote: »

...1. An unmittigated disaster, loads on government money pumped into a bigh white elephant (or should that be green) at the behest of the ministry for potatoes....

My money is on this one.

kleefarr · 28-04-2009 10:38am

alias no.9 wrote: »

Tell me, where does the hydrogen come from?

From Natural Gas acording to the website....

Home Energy Station

There are other ways to make Hydrogen..

Biologically produced Hydrogen

robtri · 28-04-2009 10:41am

electric cars have their pro's and cons, unfortunately the cons are very substantial at the moment....
Doesn't matter where the electricity comes from, electricity generated at a power station is less polluting than electricity generated by petrol or diesel engines... so from an enviroment point of view its a win for the electric car..
elctric cars generally look like crap, (there are some excpetions)...
check this one out... http://www.shelbysupercars.com/news-012209.php

the main problem is range and re-charge time...
most pure electrical cars take a long time to re-charge, generally overnight from a standard 13amp socket... but high charge points can reduce this time, but still takes at least an hour...
range is limited, but this would work very well for the vast majority of people, as most people don't use their cars for over 100 miles a day...

But till the range issue is solved a lot of people won't buy them, because if you own one and use it for your daily work comute and small trips, theya re fine, but what about holidays, weekend, trips to the country ect... they just don't work...

The charge time is looking to be reduced by the use of battery swapping stations.. so you buy the car but not the battery (you only rent the battery, cost to be covered at swap stations) which will help reduce ownership costs...
would I buy one... NO.... but if they could produce a car with a 400-500 mile range and a charge time of 15mins at high speed re-charge stations... then I would consider it...

'scorthy · 28-04-2009 10:43am

The government "say" that they (we) must invest in R&D to develop cleaner cars yet several major motor companies have come together with EV projects; how can an Irish company, even with R&D funding expect to compete as these guys have several years of a head start!
http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0403/cars.html

There is an Irish company manufacturing EV for the Dublin metropolitan area: http://www.greenaer.ie

I like the look of those Tesla cars :eek:

waraf · 28-04-2009 10:44am

alias no.9 wrote: »

Tell me, where does the hydrogen come from?

AFAIK Hydrogen is easily produced by running electricity through water (I'm open to correction on that) but the side effect of that is that you're left with a lot of heavy water which is somewhat radioactive (again open to correction on this too)

....as you can see I'm an expert on this subject

peasant · 28-04-2009 10:58am

Taking off the motoring enthusiast hat for a minute and putting on a green one, I think that this is actually a good idea.

Fossil fuels are finite and alternative power sources for cars really have to be developed now if we don't want to get caught out without petrol/diesel pretty soon.

Ireland is one of the few western countries without a car industry of its own, so no vested interests.

Ireland has great untapped resources for alternative energy production (wind, water, wave, bio-mass)

For once, we could actually be in the lead for something rather than just follow the trends.

the_syco · 28-04-2009 10:59am

IIRC, hydrogen cars use twice as much electrity as electric cars.

alias no.9 · 28-04-2009 11:14am

kleefarr wrote: »

From Natural Gas acording to the website....

Home Energy Station

So where is the break with fossil fuels then?

kleefarr wrote: »

There are other ways to make Hydrogen..

Biologically produced Hydrogen

[QUOTE=]It would take an algae farm the size of the state of Texas to produce enough hydrogen to supply the energy needs of the whole world. It would take about 25,000 square kilometres to be sufficient to displace gasoline use in the US; this is less than a tenth of the area devoted to growing soya in the US but would equal the size of the state of Vermont, or three times the size of the everglades swamp in Florida, all dedicated to raising this form of algae. [10].[/QUOTE]

That process is simply not scalable. You might be encouraged by the bit about 25,000 sq.km. being less than a tenth of the area devoted to growing soya, but you need to remember that this process needs the algae to be deprived of oxygen, i.e. a sealed chamber, not to mention the hydrogen collection, which would be next to impossible from such a massively distributed system.

The reality is that electrolysis is the only viable way of producing enough hydrogen commercially and unless the electricity is produced from renewables, then hydrogen power is not the future.

Zube · 28-04-2009 11:23am

Fazer6 wrote: »

I've seen this car on the TV.....
http://www.teslamotors.com/

Yes, that's as real as electric cars get: a €150,000 two seat sports car.

woody33 · 28-04-2009 11:25am

Liquid electricity:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Vanadium_Redox_Batteries

PirateShampoo · 28-04-2009 11:39am

peasant wrote: »

Taking off the motoring enthusiast hat for a minute and putting on a green one, I think that this is actually a good idea.

Fossil fuels are finite and alternative power sources for cars really have to be developed now if we don't want to get caught out without petrol/diesel pretty soon.

Ireland is one of the few western countries without a car industry of its own, so no vested interests.

Ireland has great untapped resources for alternative energy production (wind, water, wave, bio-mass)

For once, we could actually be in the lead for something rather than just follow the trends.

Where do you think the electric is coming from?

Big massive fossil buring power stations, thats where....

Ireland doesnt have any of the wave/wind/pixy dust power supplys.

Its a green pipe dream thats never gonna work in our generation.

Also if i want to go to kerry for a few days what am i supposed to do? Take a over night stay in Limerick while my car recharges?

Seth Brundle · 28-04-2009 11:40am

Mena · 28-04-2009 11:44am

kbannon wrote: »

And the sooner the better. But our politicians are too scared to even debate the topic properly.

seamus · 28-04-2009 11:52am

spank_inferno wrote: »

Powering an electric car off a power supply almost entirely fueled by burning carbon only moves the co2 problem further down the chain

Which is in fact the ideal way to do it because that means that it doesn't matter where the electricity comes from. Of course, generating massive amounts of energy is per Watt far more enviromentally friendly than generating small amounts at a time.

At present, our primary problem is our vehicles' inflexibility - we're stuck using one/two fuel types. Removing the dependence on a fuel source and instead using an energy source which can be generated from multiple fuels leaves us in a much more flexible situation in the future. If/when fusion becomes a viable power source for example, the existing vehicular fleet requires no modifications or otherwise requires no effort on the part of the consumer to adapt.

peasant · 28-04-2009 11:54am

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Where do you think the electric is coming from?

Big massive fossil buring power stations, thats where....

Ireland doesnt have any of the wave/wind/pixy dust power supplys.

Actually, wind energy is ideally suited to power cars. As we all know, wind varies and there are issues with feeding wind energy into the grid due to these variations of over- und undersupply.

Wind ernergy however works wonderfully if you can store it ...and where better to do that than in a car battery?

Now, it would be a bit stupid to have a dedicated windmill for every car battery ...but with some cleverness and good battery technology wind powered battery charging/exchange stations could be entirely feasible.

What's needed is research into grid requirements, battery technology and standards for cars with exchangeable batteries.

All I'm saying is that Ireland could be a good place to carry out this research ...what with our "knowledge economy" and the drive to become the R&D capital of the world

peasant · 28-04-2009 11:59am

Mena wrote: »

And the sooner the better. But our politicians are too scared to even debate the topic properly.

knowing kbannon my guess would be that he's thinking about a small nuclear reactor in the engine compartment of his future car

Mena · 28-04-2009 12:05pm

peasant wrote: »

knowing kbannon my guess would be that he's thinking about a small nuclear reactor in the engine compartment of his future car

hehe. to be fair, I could live with that too

If it's good enough for an aircraft carrier, it's good enough for my daily driver!

On the whole issue of electric cars... I'm not so sure about this to be fair. For me, driving is still a passion. The current crop of electric tin cans just does not do it for me. They'll need to do some serious work before I even thought about considering a change.

peasant · 28-04-2009 12:15pm

Mena wrote: »

On the whole issue of electric cars... I'm not so sure about this to be fair. For me, driving is still a passion. The current crop of electric tin cans just does not do it for me. They'll need to do some serious work before I even thought about considering a change.

As the Tesla roadster prooves, there is nothing dictating that electric cars need to be boring.

What is needed is research into the basics. Come up with effective, cheap and easy to charge/exchange modular batteries, so that at the "filling station" you just wheel another full battery pack into place. Different size cars could have batteries consisting of more or less batteries of the same standard, so that they are all interchangeable between car models within a few seconds.

Once you've got that standard developed you can design any sort of car you like around it.

Gregor Samsa · 28-04-2009 1:01pm

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Also if i want to go to kerry for a few days what am i supposed to do? Take a over night stay in Limerick while my car recharges?

Battery technology is coming on leaps and bounds. Sure, using your home electricity supply, charging the battery could take hours, but using a dedicated three phase charging station, this car (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/22/lightning_fast_charge_supercar/) changes 80% in 3 minutes, and a does a full charge in about 10. And even that's set to improve as the technology does.

rebel.ranter · 28-04-2009 1:07pm

Wind energy is the only way....

193888546_ff0d74acc1.jpg?v=0

The Real B-man · 28-04-2009 1:14pm

City Centers Maybe but cmon realistically in the country!

seamus · 28-04-2009 1:22pm

Realistically in the country if it can do 400 miles on a full charge, then it's easily competing with petrol and diesel. Consumer electronics are really what are driving battery improvements with flash-charge (literally charging in a matter of seconds/minutes) and longer battery life being the big things in R & D.

This kind of stuff isn't 20 years away, the technology is improving rapidly. I do suspect though that there'll be a longer-than-it-needs-to-be transitionary period where people move to hybrids, then electric cars with petrol/diesel backup generators, then pure electric.

Poor aul electric might lose out again though if hydrogen does well. Electric cars outsold everything else in the early 1900s and then petrol took over because it was easier to improve the technology and get more oomph. If someone produces a hydrogen engine which can carry 2000kms worth of hydrogen in a tank half the size, electric will probably lose out again. Hydrogen's not safe to carry though, which is its big hurdle.

'scorthy · 28-04-2009 1:25pm

It's the mind boggling logistics of it all that's off putting. Battery material - where to source, how long will it last (rare earth metals) and it's mining effects. How to charge- using fossile fuels...I don't think so.
It must have been the same when the Thin Lizzy rolled out enmass off the production line..same fears.."What OMG, so there are numerous explosions under pressure within cylinders and these drive a cam..." and where do we get this 'petrol' stuff. I wonder how did they solve the logistical problems then?
Here's my take and it echos a previous forum members take...wind turbine used at "fuel cell station" charges large reservoir cell, so that if the wind dies down there is always enough in the host tank to keep the small car cells in production. And that's what each "fuel station" would be, a some factory giving employment. The "fuel station" would have a vending machine (by then all cells would be standardise (to some degree - betamax v VHS springs to mind). The used cells can be recycled etc..

Seth Brundle · 28-04-2009 3:01pm

http://www.breakingnews.ie/text/ireland/eyauidgbmhsn/

Report says all new cars should be electric by 2020
28/04/2009 - 14:53:02

A new report calls on the Government to set more ambitious targets on the use of electric vehicles.

The study by the Oireachtas Committee on Climate Change says the project should be fast-tracked to ensure that all new cars on sale by the year 2020 are electric.

It wants the Government to set up a taskforce to ensure that Ireland becomes a global leader in developing electric cars over the next six months.

Chairman of the committee, Fine Gael TD Sean Barrett, says it's a ‘win-win situation’ in terms of energy consumption and imports.

sparklepants · 28-04-2009 3:15pm

It wants the Government to set up a taskforce to ensure that Ireland becomes a global leader in developing electric cars over the next six months.

A global leader in six months eh? Wow, this green economy thing is the panacea for all our ills!

So a government committee wants to set up a government taskforce. Sounds like the way to go alright.

PirateShampoo · 28-04-2009 4:23pm

sparklepants wrote: »

A global leader in six months eh? Wow, this green economy thing is the panacea for all our ills!

So a government committee wants to set up a government taskforce. Sounds like the way to go alright.

Lol so from No car industry what so ever to world number 1,

Why didnt they think about that a year ago. Then we wouldnt have a resesssion lol

Delta Kilo · 28-04-2009 5:01pm

waraf wrote: »

AFAIK Hydrogen is easily produced by running electricity through water (I'm open to correction on that) but the side effect of that is that you're left with a lot of heavy water which is somewhat radioactive (again open to correction on this too)

....as you can see I'm an expert on this subject

Hydrogen is not easily produced YET. Your right about running electricity through water but it isn't as simple as that. Its expensive to do it and uses a lot of electricity to produce a big amount of it. I wonder if there would be much of a difference in watts consumed to make hydrogen versus powering the electric cars directly?

You need a fair quantity of water too. For every ten parts of water you would get ~ 2.5 parts hydrogen.

To run the electricity through the water you need an acid in the water to help the current flow. Its not that the water left over is radioactive but the waste water left over has acid in it, which doesn't go down well with fish/environmentalists etc and frankly, I wouldn't like to be drinking it.

The cars are really dangerous as well because hydrogen is seriously combustible, worse than petrol. Any crash or leak in the fuel tank could be disastrous and a safe way of storing hydrogen is yet to be found.

A lot more research needs to be done on hydrogen before it could ever be used to power all the cars in a country.

grafter12 · 28-04-2009 5:42pm

Hydrogen is not easily produced YET.

This is not true, the process is called Electrolysis and has been around for over 60 years and is pretty straight forward.

Its expensive to do it and uses a lot of electricity to produce a big amount of it.

It is only as expensive as the Electrolysis device, and yes more Electricity is required to generate the Hydrogen as you would get if you used that Hydrogen to run a generator to make Electricity, that is why I believe if Renewables were use to power the Electrolysis devices then the hydrogen could be stored and the problem of inconsistent supply by renewables would not be a issue.

To run the electricity through the water you need an acid in the water to help the current flow. Its not that the water left over is radioactive but the waste water left over has acid in it, which doesn't go down well with fish/environmentalists etc and frankly, I wouldn't like to be drinking it.

The water has to be de-ionized water (the same as is used in a lead acid battery) with an electrolyte in it (e.g Sodium Hydroxide) and when it is electrolyzed the water is turned into Hydrogen and Oxygen and then once it is used in a fuel cell it is mixed back with oxygen to produce Electricity and water. So there are no harm full byproducts of Electrolysis, you just need to replenish the water regularly as it is used up.

The cars are really dangerous as well because hydrogen is seriously combustible, worse than petrol. Any crash or leak in the fuel tank could be disastrous and a safe way of storing hydrogen is yet to be found.

Hydrogen is no more dangerous than petrol, it is just that it is in a gaseous state and the storage technology has come on a lot in recent years to the extent that composite containers that are crash and bomb proof are being produced currently.

In my opinion running Electric cars using hydrogen fuel cells is the way forward, with the hydrogen being produced by a renewable source, this would increase the range considerably if Hydrogen refueling stations were available. The big problem is the cost of implementing the Hydrogen infrastructure, but with Oil predicted to run out in 30 - 40 years and Gas in 60 - 70 years then we should be doing something now to counteract this, and Electric cars are a start.

There is still a very long way to go but sitting around talking about it will not get it resolved we need to act, and the government initiative is as good a place as any to start.

towel401 · 28-04-2009 7:29pm

electric cars are great but lithium ion batteries not so

you can buy a tesla roadster, drive it for 100,000 miles and your range will be reduced by about 30% so it will be time for a new battery. even if you don't use it the battery pack will degrade by 4-20% per year. lithium titanate batteries are better but the cost of materials and mining them will jump once more electric cars are put on the market. its also very hard to recycle old battery packs into new ones which will need to be done unless we want to burn through the world's lithium supply in a few short years

rly its too early for electric cars yet, not until someone makes a few decent, easily recyclable ultracapacitors. its a shame because electric cars are such a simple design. fixed ratio gears and there is nothing to the inside of an electric motor compared to a petrol one so they are easy to service and very little can go wrong with em

Gatster · 28-04-2009 9:26pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

This could go one of two ways...

1. An unmittigated disaster, loads on government money pumped into a bigh white elephant (or should that be green) at the behest of the ministry for potatoes.

Absolutely, more PR bullsh!t to direct attention from the glaring inadequacies in the Government.

All cars electric by 2020, what an absolute joke. So they seriously think that with current model lifecycles, any large manufacturer remaining in the next few years is going to pump all their shaky resources into electric technology so that Ireland can achieve this mickey-mouse target, did they even look at the currently available/affordable/practical range?

Will Tesla-esque technology improve and drop in price sufficiently in the next few years to make this viable? It would be great if it does but I'd much prefer it if Hydrogen became the next fuel.

Johnboy Mac · 28-04-2009 9:47pm

kleefarr wrote: »

Personally I don't think we're ready. Where will this electricity come from? I doubt it will be from renewable sources. So the switch to electric cars won't help the environment much, as the pollution produced will be coming from the plants that provide the electricity for the cars in my opinion.

(/quote]

I could not agree more.

Electric cars are far from 'green' as we need electricity from power stations for then to operate and ours for the majority burn fossil fuels, the remaining are hydro and imported electricity from the UK to the best of my knowlege.

We could go all electric and be 'green' if we had the next generation of nucler power stations as we are partically nuclear powered at present due to the importation of UK electricity.

But I don't think any government would have the balls to suggest nuclear never mind building a station. Which is our loss imo.

Merch · 28-04-2009 10:12pm

towel401 wrote: »

electric cars are great but lithium ion batteries not so

you can buy a tesla roadster, drive it for 100,000 miles and your range will be reduced by about 30% so it will be time for a new battery. even if you don't use it the battery pack will degrade by 4-20% per year. lithium titanate batteries are better but the cost of materials and mining them will jump once more electric cars are put on the market. its also very hard to recycle old battery packs into new ones which will need to be done unless we want to burn through the world's lithium supply in a few short years

rly its too early for electric cars yet, not until someone makes a few decent, easily recyclable ultracapacitors. its a shame because electric cars are such a simple design. fixed ratio gears and there is nothing to the inside of an electric motor compared to a petrol one so they are easy to service and very little can go wrong with em

Hmm capacitors, interesting never heard this being mentioned to power electric cars, I think the other green options are more viable at the moment and they aren't viewed that well but every possibility needs to be looked at, perhaps bio production of hydrogen to supplement, wind wave or other renewable energy sources for production of electricity.
Electric cars with backup hydrogen generators as opposed to diesel/petrol?

Fiona500 · 28-04-2009 10:43pm

kleefarr wrote: »

I wouldn't. Not yet anyway. Would it be better to go the way of Honda and hydrogen?

The production of pure hydrogen is still at a stage where most of its energy is lost before it is in a usable state.

The government won't bring in electric cars, they get too much money from taxes on petrol. It's all just talk.

Johnny Utah · 29-04-2009 1:27am

Even Ferrari are embracing green energy.

Electric-powered Enzo........ zero emissions

Ferrari%20%20enzo%20electric%203-.jpg

Johnny Utah · 29-04-2009 1:33am

And, here's Farmer Dan doing his bit for the environment on his brand new pedal-powered tractor and trailer:

Zube · 29-04-2009 8:58am

grafter12 wrote: »

There is still a very long way to go but sitting around talking about it will not get it resolved we need to act, and the government initiative is as good a place as any to start.

1. We must do something.

2. This is something.

3. Therefore we must do this.

peasant · 29-04-2009 9:42am

Johnny Utah wrote: »

And, here's Farmer Dan doing his bit for the environment on his brand new pedal-powered tractor and trailer:

The time isn't too far away where the only ones with access to diesel will indeed be farmers and other essential services. That access will be highly rationed and regulated. Everybody else will have to have found alternative energy sources by then.

That's the other issue that tends to get overlooked: When fossil fuels run out, not only will we be walking, we will be starving as well. Modern agriculture relies totally on the availability of cheap fuel and on chemicals derived from fossil fuels. We wouldn't be able to feed the world ploughing with horses again.

Pedro K · 29-04-2009 10:09am

seamus wrote: »

Hydrogen's not safe to carry though, which is its big hurdle.

http://www.ecosilly.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/88e6d_pierce-brosnan-bmw-h7-81958452.jpg

Pierce Brosnan has a hydrogen powered 7 series.
BMW must have overcome said hurdle.

seamus · 29-04-2009 10:26am

Pedro K wrote: »

http://www.ecosilly.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/88e6d_pierce-brosnan-bmw-h7-81958452.jpg

Pierce Brosnan has a hydrogen powered 7 series.
BMW must have overcome said hurdle.

It *can* be carried. That's not in dispute. Any details on who was driving or what kind of licences are required to drive said vehicle? In Ireland (afaik), the driver would need to be licenced to carry hazardous/explosive chemicals, the container would need to be certified and the vehicle would need to be marked.

However, you could wrap a BMW around it, stick a celebrity in the back and call it a "car".

My point being that hydrogen is combustible. Ridiculously so, and far more so than petrol. A cracked or split tank in a collision could make that collision a hundred times worse. One car being in existence doesn't mean that it's suddenly possible to supply the world with these cars.

Pedro K · 29-04-2009 10:55am

seamus wrote: »

It *can* be carried. That's not in dispute. Any details on who was driving or what kind of licences are required to drive said vehicle? In Ireland (afaik), the driver would need to be licenced to carry hazardous/explosive chemicals, the container would need to be certified and the vehicle would need to be marked.

However, you could wrap a BMW around it, stick a celebrity in the back and call it a "car".

My point being that hydrogen is combustible. Ridiculously so, and far more so than petrol. A cracked or split tank in a collision could make that collision a hundred times worse. One car being in existence doesn't mean that it's suddenly possible to supply the world with these cars.

Apologies for a lack of source, but I can't find a pic anywhere. I did see this in the paper a good while ago, and it was Pierce Brosnan driving it.

Also, see
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/09/12/bmw-officially-announces-the-bmw-hydrogen-7/

And the wikipedia file for BMW Hydrogen 7 (although not an entirely accurate source) says

BMW claims the Hydrogen 7 is the “world’s first production-ready hydrogen vehicle”; thus far, the Hydrogen 7 has only been released to select high-profile leasees. Only 100 total vehicles have been produced to put their technology to the test, and no more are planned to be produced.[1] BMW says it chose public figures such as politicians, media figures, businessmen and big names in the entertainment industry such as 2007 Academy Award-winning director Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck and the chairman of Sixt AG, Erich Sixt, because “they would be ideal ambassadors” for hydrogen fuel and can help spread awareness of the need for such technologies.[2]
There is doubt, however, over whether or not this automobile will ever be put into larger production, even if hydrogen fuel technology reaches the point of economical and “green” feasibility, as well as to have the infrastructure required to put hydrogen vehicles in demand. The Hydrogen 7 uses more fuel than many trucks, consuming 13.9 L/100 km for gasoline (petrol) and 50 L/100 km for hydrogen. The following table shows the consumption (L/100 km) and fuel economy (mpg) for both Imperial and US gallons.

Also, would hydrogen not need a source of ignition in order to combust?
I'm not denying the fact that hydrogen is extremely flammable. But if BMW can roll out 100 of these cars and put big names in them, then they must be confident that the containment system for the hydrogen is safe...

Ireland to go down the Electric car route?

An all Electric car Ireland? 279 votes

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