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Prime Time

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    #32
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    It would be interesting to see what were the sources used. I took notice when I heard the puff word "nimble" used about buses, when it would be interesting to see proper stats about how many transferred to buses at the closure of rail services. Certainly in Donegal and Northern Ireland where rail services ceased, it was private cars that took up the slack.

    The dog that didn't bark in the report was rail freight.

    Is it then such a stretch to presume that the report was briefed by vested interests in private buses and road freight that would benefit from the scrapping of the railways? The history of rail closures in Ireland would suggest so. Google Bock the Robber on Todd Andrews.


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    #33
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    Do these figures show us where the losses are occurring? If Irish rail only had to run trains, would it be making money?



    Well we should be able to tell from the 2013 Annual Report - the change was made from the beginning of last year.

    That should then give a far better picture of where the costs are, which to my mind is essential.

    The minister conveniently ignored the costs of maintaining the roads that the buses operate on and the tracks that LUAS operate on while throwing his figures out, but what politician doesn't manipulate figures for his own benefit.


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    #34
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    davidlacey wrote: »
    why 22000s are making their way into commuter relatively short distance routes is beyond me?
    You do remember that 22000s were purchased in high density config for commuter purposes? Whether you agree with that call, it is why they were bought.

    Given the KRP I think Connolly side DMU ops should be all 22K now that the 4-car sets can handle Rosslare, with 29s operating on the KRP slow lines (and look to extend that trackage) and not sent to bloody Belfast a few times a week.

    As for the commentary about Ennis-Athenry ridership, I thought we had all moved past the refusal to believe that that service is with current infrastructure unable to compete with the buses, especially 51X and after several articles and observations about being able to fire a cannon through the carriages without hitting a soul. Clearly we will have to go at this again.


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    #35
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    dowlingm wrote: »
    You do remember that 22000s were purchased in high density config for commuter purposes? Whether you agree with that call, it is why they were bought.
    theirs rather few of that config i thought? + 22s are very common on short services out of connolly, i can't imagine all of them are of the commuter speck?
    dowlingm wrote: »
    Given the KRP I think Connolly side DMU ops should be all 22K now that the 4-car sets can handle Rosslare, with 29s operating on the KRP slow lines (and look to extend that trackage) and not sent to bloody Belfast a few times a week.
    i agree, but it won't happen, as apparently fast running out of hueston and ridiculous maintenence schedule times are more important then people on the rosslare and sligo lines still putting up with 29 ks which should be doing the local routes out of hueston as the config would better suit those passengers as those routes are high density.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #36
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    the rail freight issue has been done to death but I said it once and ill say it again if the passengers are not commuting by train more focus needs to be put on carrying freight instead of throwing a few random posters up. An attitude of IE going to businesses instead IE waiting for businesses coming to them needs to be the way. A whole needs to be bridged and rail freight won't solve the whole issue but alternative ideas need to be brought to the table, a little help from the government would help although we all saw varadkar said if any subvention was to come his way he would put it on buses who in my opinion do not need it! DB for example has the youngest fleet in europe


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    #37
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    davidlacey wrote: »
    the rail freight issue has been done to death but I said it once and ill say it again if the passengers are not commuting by train more focus needs to be put on carrying freight instead of throwing a few random posters up. An attitude of IE going to businesses instead IE waiting for businesses coming to them needs to be the way. A whole needs to be bridged and rail freight won't solve the whole issue but alternative ideas need to be brought to the table, a little help from the government would help although we all saw varadkar said if any subvention was to come his way he would put it on buses who in my opinion do not need it! DB for example has the youngest fleet in europe

    I watched the report and interview again this evening. The section of the film dealing with the WRC had a sepia tone and whimsical music in the background. RTE were clearly trying to trivialise the WRC and at the same time it was obvious Claire Byrne was being prompted from the gallery to push the questionable 8 passengers per train line to Varadkar. At the same time Varadkar was talking that more bang for your buck nonsense regarding subvention of rail versus bus and Luas.

    I think Varadkar's credibility as a future Taoiseach was badly dented by the interview. It was as if Tod Andrews had come back to life. Rural Ireland would clearly need more subsidy than the Pale and if the people of Ireland want the future of our country to be even more Dublin centred then Leo was certainly setting out his stall on that last night.

    Interestingly Varadkar explicitly stated the Limerick-Galway line was not closing and it would be made work. That is not at all what was distorted elsewhere!


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    #38
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    davidlacey wrote: »
    varadkar said if any subvention was to come his way he would put it on buses who in my opinion do not need it! DB for example has the youngest fleet in europe
    exactly, in my opinion leo varadkar is a possible danger to the railways which is why hopefully he won't be there after the next election, we need to get over this idea of prioritizing busses over rail, instead we need to get them to complament each other and offer an integrated transport network that gives access to each other for all, leo in my opinion is using his position as transport minister to further his own agenda against the railway and his comments last night are what convinces me of this, those who are against rail need to except its there and need to realize that even if they don't like it its better off alive then dead, if they can come to that realization then thats a huge step as far as i'm concerned

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #39
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    Varadkar was talking that more bang for your buck nonsense regarding subvention of rail versus bus and Luas.
    yeah, comparing irish rail to bus and luas, bang for your buck is fine if your wanting to get a good deal on a fleet of trains cars busses planes and so on but when it comes to public services then really its a nice thing to have but must only be a small part of spending, i'm not saying we just go wasting money but when talking about public services we need to be careful when coming out with terms such as "bang for your buck" as from what i can see it makes people fearful that their services will be cut and they will be left without.
    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    I think Varadkar's credibility as a future Taoiseach was badly dented by the interview.
    he never had any credibility IMO
    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    t was as if Tod Andrews had come back to life.
    oh god, the likes of Tod Andrews should have never been let loose on the railways, he only cared about destroying them for his own benefit, had he been left in any longer then probably cork and belfast would be the only railways to survive, what was needed was a real railway man who even if he had to suspend services or close lines he would have either made sure the routes and infrastructure were protected or found a use for them that they could be reinstated if ever needed.
    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    Rural Ireland would clearly need more subsidy than the Pale and if the people of Ireland want the future of our country to be even more Dublin centred then Leo was certainly setting out his stall on that last night.
    exactly, while dublin is the capital and will get more money spent people need to realize their is life outside dublin, sure we can talk about the one off housing and i agree in hindsight such a policy being allowed was a bad idea but frankly such houses are there now and we have to provide for them (pay for your mistakes if you will)
    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    Interestingly Varadkar explicitly stated the Limerick-Galway line was not closing and it would be made work. That is not at all what was distorted elsewhere!
    i agree with him on that, the rail network we have now has to be made work, from what i can see closures solved nothing before and will solve nothing again apart from putting more people on to the roads not using busses but cars, sure small little lines could have gone if needed be but large swades of rail network being ripped out for various reasons (sectarian in the case of the north IMO) should have been a no no, or at least should have been route protected.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #40
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    End of the road, I agree.

    You know, the more I think about this, I've come to the conclusion that the piece was really a puff piece for Varadkar. Varadkar himself comes out with the view that bus subsidy gives him "more bang for the buck" and RTE trot out tame economist Edgar Morgenroth - who has worked closely with Colm "Bord Snip Nua" McCarthy - who in turn utterly opposed the DART in the 80s - and RTE tell Claire Byrne to ram home the dubious 8 passengers per train stat for the WRC.

    So in a broadcast that Lord Haw Haw himself would be envious of, we get a neoliberal economist opposed to rural railways presented as a neutral "expert", a sepia toned film of a train with tinkly music designed to provoke scorn from the viewer when rural railways are mentioned and a tame interviewer who was purely there to feed the minister his lines.

    At some point are RTE going to replace the map of Ireland with that medieval-era map of the Pale with the message "Here be savages" outside the boundaries? :rolleyes:


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    #41
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    It was typical RTE nonsense which we are paying a licence fee for! a very one sided argument with a spokesman for IE who is a "muppet" who really did no favours for backing IE up...


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    #42
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    Calm down folks! The Primetime piece was well balanced and Varadkar was drilled on the unfair comparisons that he made. Barry Kennys rediculous points went unchalleged! In relation to the WRC , Varadkar was right. He called it as it was. A political decision, devoid of any economic evaluation.

    I can only advise people to try and control their railway emotions. I love railways, but that love can be overshadowed by a poor railway operator and a Government stuck in a railway mentality (due to recession) akin to the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s.

    Whats required is what was required during the period of unprecedented investment. VISION! We didn't get that, because Dick Fearn came for the pension. What's left is a mess.


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    #43
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    jon-stewart-chris-wallace-admitted-fox-news-is-neither-fair-nor-balanced.jpg


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    #44
    Copyerselveson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Copyerselveson


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    Whats required is what was required during the period of unprecedented investment. VISION! We didn't get that, because Dick Fearn came for the pension. What's left is a mess.

    This bit I do agree with. The boom money should have been spent on the infrastructure. Get the line speeds up and extend passing loops or better still double more lines.


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    #45
    davidlacey
    Registered Users Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    Copyerselveson wrote: »
    This bit I do agree with. The boom money should have been spent on the infrastructure. Get the line speeds up and extend passing loops or better still double more lines.

    waterford, galway, sligo spring to mind


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    #46
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    end of the road wrote: »
    well Leo varadkar is the man who apparently wants to be irelands boris johnson so i wouldn't be bothering with anything he has to say to be honest...

    He wants to emulate one of the most powerful elected politicians in the world (besides ministers and prime ministers)?


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    #47
    VWD8
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭VWD8


    That interview with Leo Varadkar was disgraceful to be honest. Staff in Irish Rail have got no pay increase in many years, contrary to want the minister indicated. The reason average pay seems to be higher is that there has been a massive increase in managers in recent years.

    It is very unfair to criticise staff for not rejecting the latest deal. The main reason it was widely rejected was because, on many services, there are no fares being collected and all the managers being appointed! Ticket checkers are almost gone and at many stations at off peak times, there is nobody to sell tickets! It is not fare evasion, people who want to buy tickets cannot! The situation is slowly improving with ticket machines though. A huge amount of revenue has still gone out the window in recent years.

    Going back to the minister, he was very anti rail. The comparison of the subsidies to the bus companies was laughable, a child would know that is comparing apples to oranges! While there is problems in the company as I said above, he should be sorting them out and not mouthing off on primetime.

    There is also a misconception about the money invested in the railway. The hundereds of millions that was spent was on relaying track, ie. just keeping it safe, not improving the network as such. At the same time billions were spent building new roads. The intercity services have been hammered by the motorways and new bus services and together with the recession, passenger numbers fell off a cliff.

    Everytime IE tries to get its finances in order then it is hit with another cut in subvention, so it is impossible to get back out of that hole. The Free Travel is also awfully underfunded, overgenerous and open to fraud.

    So basically, staff would have no problems in giving something if the company was in genuine financial difficulty. Not when the company is badly run and the government's attitude is wrong. There are some great managers and staff in the company and in fairness, the new CEO is getting very tough on revenue.


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    #48
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    VWD8 wrote: »
    That interview with Leo Varadkar was disgraceful to be honest. Staff in Irish Rail have got no pay increase in many years, contrary to want the minister indicated. The reason average pay seems to be higher is that there has been a massive increase in managers in recent years.

    It is very unfair to criticise staff for not rejecting the latest deal. The main reason it was widely rejected was because, on many services, there are no fares being collected and all the managers being appointed! Ticket checkers are almost gone and at many stations at off peak times, there is nobody to sell tickets! It is not fare evasion, people who want to buy tickets cannot! The situation is slowly improving with ticket machines though. A huge amount of revenue has still gone out the window in recent years.

    Going back to the minister, he was very anti rail. The comparison of the subsidies to the bus companies was laughable, a child would know that is comparing apples to oranges! While there is problems in the company as I said above, he should be sorting them out and not mouthing off on primetime.

    There is also a misconception about the money invested in the railway. The hundereds of millions that was spent was on relaying track, ie. just keeping it safe, not improving the network as such. At the same time billions were spent building new roads. The intercity services have been hammered by the motorways and new bus services and together with the recession, passenger numbers fell off a cliff.

    Everytime IE tries to get its finances in order then it is hit with another cut in subvention, so it is impossible to get back out of that hole. The Free Travel is also awfully underfunded, overgenerous and open to fraud.

    So basically, staff would have no problems in giving something if the company was in genuine financial difficulty. Not when the company is badly run and the government's attitude is wrong. There are some great managers and staff in the company and in fairness, the new CEO is getting very tough on revenue.

    Well it wouldn't be the first time a manipulated statistic treated as fact was used to push an agenda in this country.


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    #49
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    Holy ****, the IE poor mouth mentality is back and loud and clear in its blame it on the Government ****e. There are two of you in it! Can't you see this? Its always been this way.


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