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Should we honour our own heroes?

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  • 24-05-2015 10:52pm
    #1
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭


    I'm hesitant about this but...so much change has benefitted us since 1993 that we should honour those who led and campaigned and stood up and spoke out. I only know of a few:
    David Norris
    Mary Robinson
    Mary McAleese
    Eamonn Gilmore
    The Civil Society groups

    Should the LGBTQ community honour them for the freedom they have won with us and for us? Who else belongs in the list of Heroes?


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    #2
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,414 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    They usually get a few drinks raised in their honor on June 28th, what else would you suggest?

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #3
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    Countless people have done their part and are all heroes in their own right - those who were not afraid to hide during dark days, those who set up and maintained the gay bars and events in Dublin, those who bravely represent trans folk whose day will still come, those who stood for their rights, those who canvassed door to door and put themselves out there for potential abuse. Those who voted for something that has given Ireland a new light :)


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    #4
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Ten of Swords wrote: »
    They usually get a few drinks raised in their honor on June 28th, what else would you suggest?

    Something national. Something significant. Something so they know. It's bigger than people of the year.


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    #5
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,414 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    June 28th is usually gay pride

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #6
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    Ten of Swords wrote: »
    June 28th is usually gay pride

    Also my birthday, Do you mind if I pretend the parade and celebrations are for me.


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    #7
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    They have GALA awards

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #8
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    At this point a statue would be fitting for Norris. I would also like to see the wall opposite the George where the original mural was be given a new similar but permanent mural in memoriam to the victory and to those LGBT people who sadly never lived to see the day.


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    #9
    InitiumNovum
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭InitiumNovum


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Eamonn Gilmore

    LOL!!


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    #10
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    At this point a statue would be fitting for Norris. I would also like to see the wall opposite the George where the original mural was be given a new similar but permanent mural in memoriam to the victory and to those LGBT people who sadly never lived to see the day.

    Considering that the alternative is an ugly blank gable end, the mural should be reinstated. Though it had a short lifespan, dare I say it was iconic?


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    #11
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    InitiumNovum wrote: »
    LOL!!

    Zero chance there'd have been a referendum in this Dail term without him


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    #12
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Aard wrote: »
    Considering that the alternative is an ugly blank gable end, the mural should be reinstated. Though it had a short lifespan, dare I say it was iconic?

    Indeed. Personally I can't imagine any draw backs except perhaps cost but I can't imagine that is too much either. I'd be up for fundraising with a bucket on the street. So power gays get to it. Perhaps as Lord and Master of this Site DeVore can use some dark arts to make it happen.


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    #13
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Aard wrote: »
    Considering that the alternative is an ugly blank gable end, the mural should be reinstated. Though it had a short lifespan, dare I say it was iconic?

    I think all the commotion on social media about it means its safe enough to say so yeah


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    #14
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,131 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Maire Geoghegan Quinn.


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    #15
    InitiumNovum
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭InitiumNovum


    L1011 wrote: »
    Zero chance there'd have been a referendum in this Dail term without him

    Care to qualify that? I'm assuming you're basing this on the fact that he just happened to be the leader of the Labour Party, the coalition member with the greatest history of LGBT advocacy, when they went into coalition with Fine Gael and that another Labour Party leader would not have called for the same thing if Gilmore was not leader. Besides, it's not as if the Labour Party was the only coalition member who advocated same-sex marriage, Fine Gael did too. Might as well label Enda Kenny a "hero" too by that logic. Gilmore is hardly up there with Irish civil rights icons like David Norris or Mary Robinson. Gilmore was only following the party line.


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    #16
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Gilmore has a history of advocating for rights for gay people.


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    #17
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    InitiumNovum wrote: »
    Care to qualify that? I'm assuming you're basing this on the fact that he just happened to be the leader of the Labour Party, the coalition member with the greatest history of LGBT advocacy, when they went into coalition with Fine Gael and that another Labour Party leader would not have called for the same thing if Gilmore was not leader. Besides, it's not as if the Labour Party was the only coalition member who advocated same-sex marriage, Fine Gael did too. Might as well label Enda Kenny a "hero" too by that logic. Gilmore is hardly up there with Irish civil rights icons like David Norris or Mary Robinson. Gilmore was only following the party line.

    Gilmore went a lot further than the party line and FG wasnt strongly pushing their party line. Actually I dont even think their party line was marriage equality in 2011.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #18
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Aard wrote: »
    Gilmore has a history of advocating for rights for gay people.

    A long history going back to USI in the 70s.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #19
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    FG certainly didn't even have inklings of marriage equality on the agenda 5 years ago. I was told as much by a then-prominent, now-not-so-prominent FG frontbencher. Sure y'have civil partnerships doncha?


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    #20
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    InitiumNovum wrote: »
    Care to qualify that? I'm assuming you're basing this on the fact that he just happened to be the leader of the Labour Party, the coalition member with the greatest history of LGBT advocacy, when they went into coalition with Fine Gael and that another Labour Party leader would not have called for the same thing if Gilmore was not leader. Besides, it's not as if the Labour Party was the only coalition member who advocated same-sex marriage, Fine Gael did too. Might as well label Enda Kenny a "hero" too by that logic. Gilmore is hardly up there with Irish civil rights icons like David Norris or Mary Robinson. Gilmore was only following the party line.

    Plenty of people are only heros due to their position in the right place at the right time.

    In 2011 there was no other leader of the Labour Party, and without said party in government the referendum wasn't going to exist.


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    #21
    InitiumNovum
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭InitiumNovum


    Aard wrote: »
    Gilmore has a history of advocating for rights for gay people.

    He's not exceptionally noteworthy in this regard.
    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Gilmore went a lot further than the party line and FG wasnt strongly pushing their party line. Actually I dont even think their party line was marriage equality in 2011.

    No, Gilmore did exactly what everyone in the party agreed with and did exactly what the Labour Party's 2011 election manifesto put forward, which was to bring forward a referendum on marriage equality. He was following the party line and the initiative for the referendum was not his own doing.

    (See page 78 of this)
    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    A long history going back to USI in the 70s.

    Can anyone tell me what exactly, if anything, exceptionally worthy of note did Eamon Gilmore do between the 1970s and now for LGBT rights?
    L1011 wrote: »
    Plenty of people are only heros due to their position in the right place at the right time.

    In 2011 there was no other leader of the Labour Party, and without said party in government the referendum wasn't going to exist.

    I don't see someone as "hero" of LGBT rights if they're simply riding on the back of the inevitable and overwhelming popular opinion and didn't do anything exceptionally noteworthy in terms of changing societal opinions and prejudices. It's simply taking credit where it is not due.

    Bringing forward a marriage equality referendum was part of Labour's manifesto during 2011 general election. If that particular facet of Labour's manifesto was not agreed upon by the party, then Gilmore would have simply nodded and gone along with it. In the 2007 general election, Labour's manifesto indicated that they didn't agree with full marriage equality, just civil partnerships. Gilmore wasn't leader of the Labour Party at that time, but did he speak out at this time and say there should be full marriage equality, not just civil partnership? No. Why? Because he was following the party line.

    I only see someone as a hero or a heroine if they fought the party line and fought even when what they were fighting for was overwhelmingly not popular. Those sort of people are the true heroes and heroines. If you're simply saying something when it's popular to say it, then that doesn't exactly fit the attributes of heroism. This is why, in my opinion, a careerist politician like Gilmore should not be on the same list as the likes of David Norris.


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    #22
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Weren't The Green Party the first Irish political party to support same-sex marriage?

    While many Labour people talked about it and supported it, it wasn't included in a Labour manifesto until 2011. Gilmore must get credit for pushing for the referendum by calling it the civil rights issue of our time (or words to that effect). But that's where is ends really as far as I can see.

    I was personally annoyed they waited until the last year of the Dail term to hold the referendum. I felt that each day was another day of discrimination and that it should have been held back in 2011 or 2012.


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    #23
    pl4ichjgy17zwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭pl4ichjgy17zwd


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    I was personally annoyed they waited until the last year of the Dail term to hold the referendum. I felt that each day was another day of discrimination and that it should have been held back in 2011 or 2012.

    Do you think it would have passed in 2011 or 2012? Genuine question, I'm not sure.


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    #24
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Nasir Lively Gnat wrote: »
    Do you think it would have passed in 2011 or 2012? Genuine question, I'm not sure.

    I don't think so no. The Childrens rights referendum simply had to come first so that the government could introduce the children and family relationships bill. Those 2 things absolutely had to be done first and they needed time. I think the issue also needed some political and public reflection. If it was rushed through in 2011 or 2012 we wouldn't have had the debate at the constitutional convention or the space to allow Leo Varadkar or Pat Carey or Ursula Halligan to come out.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #25
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Weren't The Green Party the first Irish political party to support same-sex marriage?

    While many Labour people talked about it and supported it, it wasn't included in a Labour manifesto until 2011.

    Not true. It was included in Labours 2007 manifesto.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #26
    rosobel
    Site Banned Posts: 28 ✭rosobel


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    I'm hesitant about this but...so much change has benefitted us since 1993 that we should honour those who led and campaigned and stood up and spoke out. I only know of a few:
    David Norris
    Mary Robinson
    Mary McAleese
    Eamonn Gilmore
    The Civil Society groups

    Should the LGBTQ community honour them for the freedom they have won with us and for us? Who else belongs in the list of Heroes?

    Seriously if you want to honour hero's you should be honouring the likes of Freddy Mercury, Boy George and Neil Tennant since they did more in the 80's to raise gay awareness than any of those people you listed do now a days. Actually if it wasn't for the likes of Freddy and Neil doing their stuff in the 80's this would still be a backwards country as regards the homosexual agenda and none of those people you listed would have the confidence to be public.

    "I want to break free" and "Go West" were probably two of the most epic songs as regards LGBT awareness and changed a crap load for the LGBT community and made it more acceptable, there is a statue of Phil Lynott on Grafton Street but in my opinion there should also be a statue of Freddy Mercury on Georges Street. If Elvis was the King of rock and roll then Freddy was most definitely the Queen


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    #27
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    rosobel wrote: »
    Seriously if you want to honour hero's you should be honouring the likes of Freddy Mercury, Boy George and Neil Tennant since they did more in the 80's to raise gay awareness than any of those people you listed do now a days. Actually if it wasn't for the likes of Freddy and Neil doing their stuff in the 80's this would still be a backwards country as regards the homosexual agenda and none of those people you listed would have the confidence to be public.

    "I want to break free" and "Go West" were probably two of the most epic songs as regards LGBT awareness and changed a crap load for the LGBT community and made it more acceptable, there is a statue of Phil Lynott on Grafton Street but in my opinion there should also be a statue of Freddy Mercury on Georges Street. If Elvis was the King of rock and roll then Freddy was most definitely the Queen

    I think it's difficult to create a hierarchy of heroes isn't it.

    David Norris did go to the courts to get homosexual acts decriminalised. I think he deserves a hero award!


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    #28
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Nasir Lively Gnat wrote: »
    Do you think it would have passed in 2011 or 2012? Genuine question, I'm not sure.

    In 2012, yeah I think it would have. The polls showed massive support for it even then and the government was quite popular at that stage.

    I'm obviously glad it's now passed. The lead in phase to the referendum which lasted about 16 months and included Enda Kenny going to a gay bar, Leo coming out etc were all timed perfectly in hindsight.


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    #29
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,880 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    I think it's difficult to create a hierarchy of heroes isn't it.

    David Norris did go to the courts to get homosexual acts decriminalised. I think he deserves a hero award!

    He got a GCN gala award in 2009

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #30
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    rosobel wrote: »
    Seriously if you want to honour hero's you should be honouring the likes of Freddy Mercury, Boy George and Neil Tennant since they did more in the 80's to raise gay awareness than any of those people you listed do now a days. Actually if it wasn't for the likes of Freddy and Neil doing their stuff in the 80's this would still be a backwards country as regards the homosexual agenda and none of those people you listed would have the confidence to be public.

    "I want to break free" and "Go West" were probably two of the most epic songs as regards LGBT awareness and changed a crap load for the LGBT community and made it more acceptable, there is a statue of Phil Lynott on Grafton Street but in my opinion there should also be a statue of Freddy Mercury on Georges Street. If Elvis was the King of rock and roll then Freddy was most definitely the Queen

    There is huge truth in this. The connections to disco and the Hirschfeld Centre and Tonie Walsh are there for all to see. I've been rereading a lot of stuff about that era the past week and music and dance really did play a huge part. I suppose I'm thinking of our home grown heroes but you're right: the power of a role model is huge. The Declan Flynn murder is getting prominence again and it was great to see Fairview decorated for the yes vote. I think people are planning a memorial service soonish for him.


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    #31
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Access to British tv channels and British programmes in general must take a lot of credit too. The soaps in particular normalised gay people for a population that didn't know any gay people.

    The change didn't just happen in the last few weeks, it started back in the 1980s and 90s.


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