Sick and tired of Bus Éireann

_Kaiser_ · 09-01-2013 5:01pm

All this petty bickering and namecalling - another day on C&T :rolleyes:

Comparing one cash fare to another seems fair game to me. You could argue that back in the 2006 time frame mentioned there were 10-journey tickets, Travel 90s etc too. Maybe we should be factoring those in?

The simple fact is (as the VAST thread on the subject will attest to, couple with people like Alek's own "on the ground" day-to-day experience) is that LEAP in its current form is arguably a failure - hence why most(?) commuters aren't using it.

Regardless, public transport in this country (at least state-involved options) is too expensive and too inconsistent (in terms of reliability, customer service etc) no matter what pricing options are available.

Anyway (somewhat) back on topic!

Someone on the comments for the Breaking News article on the upcoming strike posted the following...

Staffing Cost Comparison

Operator £ €
Arriva Northumbria £23,784 €29,730
Arriva Cymru £21,285 €26,606
Red and White £20,609 €25,761
First Devon & Cornwall £21,986 €27,483
Stagecoach Devon £22,201 €27,751
Lincolnshire Road Car £21,695 €27,119
Arriva Midlands £22,685 € 28,356
Ulsterbus £ 25,315 €31,644
Bus Éireann £39,803 €49,754
Average currency conversion rate of €1:£0.8 or £1:€1.25

(apparently from this report)

That's a huge difference that the BE lads are getting! No wonder the fares are so high!

devnull · 09-01-2013 5:29pm

That list deliberately selected the areas with the lowest average pay in the UK, it's well know that the average pay in NI, Devon and Cornwall, Northumbria, and Wales is in the bottom quarter of places in the UK in any industry. That study was a little bit biased in that respect.

A much fairer comparison would be comparing the operators who operate in the big cities, that would have a higher cost of living, and therefore higher pay rates so I don't think that cherry picking of numbers is valid at all to this argument.

I posted a couple of months ago the facts taken from the latest accounts, and using a simple wage bill divided by staff formula I came up with the following

Bus Eireann average wage: €50,623
Irish Rail average wage: €53,108
Dublin Bus average wage: €52,656

Some comparable companies
Aircoach (Dublin, Ireland, Cork, Ireland): €37.713
Lothian (Edinburgh, Scotland): €42,765
First Manchester: €30,470

I was going to quote National Express Midlands and a few Stagecoach companies but they seem to divide their companies into a few parent ones rather than having lots of smaller ones for each city/county.

As said before, that is a quick and dirty way to work out the average salary in the company, what it does not show us is what grades of staff are getting high wages, if there are a small group of managers on huge salaries for instance, this will push the average wage higher.

LXFlyer · 09-01-2013 5:31pm

To be fair Kaiser, the reason I am holding firm on this is that people are choosing to pay more than they need to - and therefore by complaining about comparative cash fares they are missing the fundamental point that they're paying too much!

People need (and I've been banging on about this for several years here) to become far more savvy about how they pay for public transport and use all of the available options available.

n97 mini · 09-01-2013 5:55pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

They can't win, provide a good frequent service and they're accused of saturating a route?

While it is a very good service it's not attracting much competition, which might explain the high fares. As regards winning, BÉ shouldn't be the winner, it should be the consumer.

currins_02 · 09-01-2013 6:06pm

As stated those wage rates do not account for pay grades and high earners will pull the average up but it shoudl also be noted BE have hundreds of outstationed part time school bus drivers who ware paid low part time wages, these guys will be pulling the average down too.

Niles · 09-01-2013 10:09pm

ANXIOUS wrote: »

The thing that annoys me most is that you can't use return tickets the same way.

I don't mind that... but take a look at their return fares on the website, the midweek return is now the same price as a monthly return (at least this is the case on the 001 and 002 routes, haven't had reason to check others). This defeats the purpose of having a midweek return... which was meant to make travel on less busy days cheaper.

On a positive note the cost of a day return didn't go up this time...

AlekSmart · 09-01-2013 10:27pm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Anyway (somewhat) back on topic!

That's a huge difference that the BE lads are getting! No wonder the fares are so high!

My more simplistic yardstick would be to evaluate the numbers of Drivers and associated blue-collar staff in those highly specific low wage companies who are currently paying massive mortgages and commuting from appropriately distant homes.

Wage and salary inflation in Ireland is,like it or not,more than a Public Transport specific issue.

But who shall blink first and take the realignment .....can't see any queues yet....?

ANXIOUS · 09-01-2013 10:37pm

Niles wrote: »

I don't mind that... but take a look at their return fares on the website, the midweek return is now the same price as a monthly return (at least this is the case on the 001 and 002 routes, haven't had reason to check others). This defeats the purpose of having a midweek return... which was meant to make travel on less busy days cheaper.

On a positive note the cost of a day return didn't go up this time...

The reason it annoys me is that the schedule is only convenient for me one way, on the way home I use a private compant that allows me to use the ticket the same way.

twinkylinky · 09-01-2013 11:20pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

€12 from Dublin to Navan? whats wrong with that? where else will you get a journey of that length at that price?

single.. bare in mind. not even a return. navan aint that far from dublin. honestly shdnt b dat much

twinkylinky · 09-01-2013 11:38pm

i am obviously complaining becase the fare has increased annually also. atleast your fairs arent over €4.. we are hitting over €15. same price as galway.. come on ... they should guve us a break

Hilly Bill · 10-01-2013 12:56am

twinkylinky wrote: »

single.. bare in mind. not even a return. navan aint that far from dublin. honestly shdnt b dat much

23cents a kilometer. Its a business not a charity.

Cookie_Monster · 10-01-2013 3:22am

lxflyer wrote: »

What more is needed than the following from the NTA fare determinations:

The Authority is nevertheless mindful of the cost-of-living issues that are affecting commuters and of providing value and alternatives. Customers migrating from cash to Leap will notice increased savings with the differential for adults widening for each of the fare bands, from an average of 10% to 12%, through lower Leap fare increases. In respect of children, customers will also observe increased savings in migrating from cash to Leap card with the differential increasing from an average of 7% to 9.6% and also that Leap card schoolchild (i.e. a child travelling in the school hours period) fares have been kept constant with a differential increased to 12.5% relative to cash fares.

have to laugh at that: increased savings?!? No, they just slightly lower COST increases, no savings at all. A saving would be if the fare was reduced, which in living memory it never has been. NTA::rolleyes::mad:

AlekSmart · 10-01-2013 6:31am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

have to laugh at that: increased savings?!? No, they just slightly lower COST increases, no savings at all. A saving would be if the fare was reduced, which in living memory it never has been. NTA::rolleyes::mad:

Strangely enough,for two of the BAC Fare-Stage bands the fare has reduced substantially compared to the former cash element.

If you were paying the old €2.15 cash fare up to Dec 2012,your new Leapcard fare is €2.10.....reduction of 5c

If you were paying the old €2.65 cash fare up to Dec 2012,your new Leapcard fare is €2.45. reduction of 20c.

The lower two fare-stage bands have remained static using Leapcard....It's a no-brainer really...?

When I point this out to the many folks paying me €2.80 each way every-day,they can,and do,react quite strongly against me......bizzarre stuff indeed ???

devnull · 10-01-2013 11:23am

AlekSmart wrote: »

When I point this out to the many folks paying me €2.80 each way every-day,they can,and do,react quite strongly against me......bizzarre stuff indeed ???

See my earlier post - I genuinely believe people in this country have this bizarre fascination in paying in cash for whatever the reason and are very much against change, despite the fact in virtually every other capital city, cash has been used very little, in some of which paying by cash is not even an option!

Those people also tend to be the ones that moan about fare increases, bizarre stuff indeed.

_Kaiser_ · 10-01-2013 12:06pm

devnull wrote: »

See my earlier post - I genuinely believe people in this country have this bizarre fascination in paying in cash for whatever the reason and are very much against change, despite the fact in virtually every other capital city, cash has been used very little, in some of which paying by cash is not even an option!

Those people also tend to be the ones that moan about fare increases, bizarre stuff indeed.

Well have the numerous issues with LEAP (having to go find somewhere to activate it first, overcharging/not reading correctly, general lack of awareness of its existence and the benefits it offers) been resolved yet?

Genuine question as I'm not up to speed on the LEAP thread, but it would seem to me that these would all be a factor. If you ask your mate who has one of "dem fancy new cards" and he has nothing but complaints about it, you're hardly going to rush out and buy one are you?

And yes, cards like this are generally/traditionally (think things like the Travel 90 card) aimed at daily commuters. Occasional or extremely infrequent users are hardly going to go through all the legwork of finding a place that stocks it, registering it, finding out how to use it correctly etc - they'll just pay cash and whinge about how expensive it is and therefore why they never take the bus!

_Kaiser_ · 10-01-2013 12:16pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Strangely enough,for two of the BAC Fare-Stage bands the fare has reduced substantially compared to the former cash element.

If you were paying the old €2.15 cash fare up to Dec 2012,your new Leapcard fare is €2.10.....reduction of 5c

If you were paying the old €2.65 cash fare up to Dec 2012,your new Leapcard fare is €2.45. reduction of 20c.

The lower two fare-stage bands have remained static using Leapcard....It's a no-brainer really...?

When I point this out to the many folks paying me €2.80 each way every-day,they can,and do,react quite strongly against me......bizzarre stuff indeed ???

To be fair/fare? (sorry!

), €2.45 / €2.65 is a ridiculous amount of money to be paying for a standard bus trip in Dublin that 5/6 years ago was what? €1.70 or so?

I don't know about you but my disposable income hasn't gone up so much that an increase like that (if I was still using the bus) wouldn't be noticed!

Maybe if they hadn't spent a fortune on brand new "accessible" buses over the last decade to facilitate a presumably very small percentage of wheelchair users (I'm not counting buggies as people managed with these for decades on much smaller buses) there might have been more cash around to absorb increased diesel etc costs.

I'm not having a go at wheelchair users, and I know that in our modern enlightened PC and H&S aware society, EVERY group has to be catered for, but it seems like overkill to me considering the expense of these buses vs benefit to the majority of users (needs of the many if you will). We could have phased these new buses in at a slower rate so every 2nd bus even is "accessible" or something.

I mean, aside from not being "accessible", what was wrong with the fleet of Olympians we spent a fortune on previously? Nothing.. which is why most of them are still in active service elsewhere - or even converted to be a home for a young couple in the UK (how that for accessibility).

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get lots of stick for this post, but the net result of this policy is plain to see - higher costs, increased fares and lower usage which in turn means even more losses

AlekSmart · 10-01-2013 1:57pm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

To be fair/fare? (sorry! ), €2.45 / €2.65 is a ridiculous amount of money to be paying for a standard bus trip in Dublin that 5/6 years ago was what? €1.70 or so?

Maybe if they hadn't spent a fortune on brand new "accessible" buses over the last decade to facilitate a presumably very small percentage of wheelchair users (I'm not counting buggies as people managed with these for decades on much smaller buses) comply with the requirements of the Accessibility Act 2000,there might have been more cash around to absorb increased diesel etc costs.

I'm not having a go at wheelchair users, and I know that in our modern enlightened PC and H&S aware society, EVERY group has to be catered for, but it seems like overkill to me considering the expense of these buses vs benefit to the majority of users (needs of the many if you will). We could have phased these new buses in at a slower rate so every 2nd bus even is "accessible" or something.

I mean, aside from not being "accessible", what was wrong with the fleet of Olympians we spent a fortune on previously? Nothing.. which is why most of them are still in active service elsewhere - or even converted to be a home for a young couple in the UK (how that for accessibility).

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get lots of stick for this post, but the net result of this policy is plain to see - higher costs, increased fares and lower usage which in turn means even more losses

I would differ on the suggestion that the €2.80,13+Stage fare is BAC's "Standard",in facta,I would suggest that general perception amongst cash-fare payers is that the €1.65 fare will bring you just about anyplace....;)

With our 13 stage+ €2.80 essentially all we have done is bring that cash-fare level up to industry norms.

Given that any London Bus journey will cost ya £Stg 2.40 cash today,our €1.65 cash basic fare is a steal.

But,as you say,let the Stick-Waving begin !!!

Niles · 10-01-2013 11:40pm

I too can't understand why people continue to pay cash fares - on a daily basis I saw the same people get on and pay cash when, depending on their journey length a Leap card or T90 would make more sense. I'm only a culchie working in Dublin (so have to put up with increased BÉ and DB fares) and I cottoned on to using the Leap card from the get go, can't understand why more don't.

On the subject of fares, perhaps it would have made more sense to raise the leap fares at a lower rate than cash (say 5c, rather than 20c).

LXFlyer · 11-01-2013 12:29am

Niles wrote: »

I too can't understand why people continue to pay cash fares - on a daily basis I saw the same people get on and pay cash when, depending on their journey length a Leap card or T90 would make more sense. I'm only a culchie working in Dublin (so have to put up with increased BÉ and DB fares) and I cottoned on to using the Leap card from the get go, can't understand why more don't.

On the subject of fares, perhaps it would have made more sense to raise the leap fares at a lower rate than cash (say 5c, rather than 20c).

In percentage terms that is exactly what they did.

LEAP fares rose at a lower percentage than cash fares.

schemingbohemia · 11-01-2013 1:23pm

twinkylinky wrote: »

i am obviously complaining becase the fare has increased annually also. atleast your fairs arent over €4.. we are hitting over €15. same price as galway.. come on ... they should guve us a break

You still have not stated why you don't or can't get a weekly or monthly ticket or whether or not you have tried to get a taxsaver ticket. All these options are there, but you've just repeated saying prices going up wreck your head, what have you done to stop your head getting wrecked?

_Kaiser_ · 11-01-2013 1:47pm

lxflyer wrote: »

In percentage terms that is exactly what they did.

LEAP fares rose at a lower percentage than cash fares.

The point ultimately though is that if fares reach a point where the perception is that the value isn't there, people will make alternative travel arrangements if that option is available to them.

It's not like we have an outstanding bus service as it is - late/missing buses, poor customer services, poor driving ability in a lot of cases, antisocial behaviour, routing that more suits the operator than the customer (the obsession with An Lar for example), poor scheduling, no service after 11:30/midnight and so on...

If you're then going to charge people more and more money for the same journey while not addressing any of these other problems then you'll have difficulty holding on to your existing customers, nevermind attracting new ones - and saying that "but shure this new LEAP card has less of an increase on it" doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

dowlingm · 11-01-2013 2:56pm

If it is possible to profitably operate Dublin-Navan at a fare proportional to the Cork-Dublin fare, why haven't Aircoach, Citylink, JJK and Gobe made applications to operate on the route? :rolleyes:

currins_02 · 11-01-2013 3:05pm

How do we know they haven't?? Indeed there is a post on a rival board this week suggesting such a licence has been granted in the last few days (although it does not appear on the published NTA list - last updated 24th December)

devnull · 11-01-2013 7:12pm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

The point ultimately though is that if fares reach a point where the perception is that the value isn't there, people will make alternative travel arrangements if that option is available to them.

The Value isn't there by paying cash in London for bus journeys, thanks to the high fares but it didn't put people off using the services, they just switch to oyster.

saying that "but shure this new LEAP card has less of an increase on it" doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

See example in London and other cities, it worked there so why not her, people didn't abandon public transport in London when the cash fares got hiked, they switched, I'm not sure why Irish people cannot be the same, although I admit people here have this obsession with cash.

devnull · 11-01-2013 7:14pm

dowlingm wrote: »

If it is possible to profitably operate Dublin-Navan at a fare proportional to the Cork-Dublin fare, why haven't Aircoach, Citylink, JJK and Gobe made applications to operate on the route? :rolleyes:

Because for such route there is unlikely be enough demand to satisfy two operators, and BE has a huge advantage as incumbent.

Sick and tired of Bus Éireann

Comments