Different training methods

Blacktie. · 06-04-2014 4:58pm #1

When discussing training there are a lot of different tools out there. You got barbell exercises, dumbbells, kettlebells and then there's bodyweight exercises as well. Can we get a discussion going on the merits of each system?

Stench Blossoms · 06-04-2014 5:19pm

They all have their place but ultimately I think it's down to what you're goal is.

Blacktie. · 06-04-2014 6:44pm

Would you not try to incorporate all the methods into a program to get the most benefit though and then depending on your goal have a main focus?

Doug Cartel · 06-04-2014 6:49pm

Blacktie. wrote: »

Would you not try to incorporate all the methods into a program to get the most benefit though and then depending on your goal have a main focus?

There's so many different things you could be doing that there is no way you could use a bit of everything.

Usually if you want to come up with a good program is first decide what you are training for, find out who is successful at that thing, and then steal their training program.

Also it's a lot easier to take one of those programs and discuss why they work than it is to start trying to enumerate every different possible combination of exercise and schedule.

LuckyLloyd · 06-04-2014 8:19pm

Blacktie. wrote: »

Would you not try to incorporate all the methods into a program to get the most benefit though and then depending on your goal have a main focus?

http://crossfit.com/

Heavily criticized effort to do just that.

Brian? · 06-04-2014 8:40pm

Blacktie. wrote: »

Would you not try to incorporate all the methods into a program to get the most benefit though and then depending on your goal have a main focus?

I understand what you're saying, but there are too many methods to incorporate everything.

You need to decide what exactly you're training for and pick the methods that work best.

Mellor · 07-04-2014 2:20am

Blacktie. wrote: »

When discussing training there are a lot of different tools out there. You got barbell exercises, dumbbells, kettlebells and then there's bodyweight exercises as well. Can we get a discussion going on the merits of each system?

The problem is they aren't unique systems. They are just presented that way sometimes. People tend to exaggerate the difference between them imo.

Barbells and Dumbells aren't significantly different imo. One allows slightly heavier loads due to stability, and the other is better at unilateral work.

Kettlebells can work different movements due to this shape, but outside of KB specific moves (swing, snatch, C&J etc), a lot of the movements are just replicating dumbells (1 arm row, strict press). Even worse, a lot of the gimmick kettlebell stuff is aerobics dancing one of the floor.

Bodyweight is made up of a range from simple stuff, to technical stuff.
The simple stuff like push ups, air squats don't offer anything different to loaded versions, and should be used as a beginners progression, warm ups etc.
At the far end, there's the more technical stuff, a lot of it is skill based as well as strength based. If the only goal is improve strength, then you might be better off hitting strength work directly.
Eg, Work towards a free stand HSPU is you want to be able to do a free standing HSPU, not because you want a stronger OHP.

Obviously i'm generalizing there, and theres a middle ground. Mobility test with pistols. Or for example, I do a bit of bodyweight stuff aiming as assisting my wrestling, rather than pure strength benefits.

My 2c, feel free to point out holes

Transform · 08-04-2014 10:54am

start with mainly body weight movements and some kettlebell swings, kettlebell snatches and move on from there after at least 6months mastering e.g. pull ups, weighted pull ups, dips, press ups, lunges, squats, split squats, single leg deadlifts etc all with a kettlebell or kettlebells.

Most people i deal with (90% of them want fat loss and to feel and look their best and couldnt give a toss about methods) never need to move much beyond this except when they have gotten strong enough to squat or deadlift more than a kettlebell(s) will provide.

For me thats when a woman can confortably squat while holding a 24kg kettlebell, do single leg deadlifts with a pair of 16kg bells, can do full length press ups with chest to floor, can do a L-sit, has one chin up and has the capacity to get through e.g. 5 rounds of 200m run, 12 Kettlebell swings, 8 ring rows, 8 burpees in 10mins.

For guys - see above

Blacktie. · 08-04-2014 11:28am

Transform wrote: »

start with mainly body weight movements and some kettlebell swings, kettlebell snatches and move on from there after at least 6months mastering e.g. pull ups, weighted pull ups, dips, press ups, lunges, squats, split squats, single leg deadlifts etc all with a kettlebell or kettlebells.

Most people i deal with (90% of them want fat loss and to feel and look their best and couldnt give a toss about methods) never need to move much beyond this except when they have gotten strong enough to squat or deadlift more than a kettlebell(s) will provide.

For me thats when a woman can confortably squat while holding a 24kg kettlebell, do single leg deadlifts with a pair of 16kg bells, can do full length press ups with chest to floor, can do a L-sit, has one chin up and has the capacity to get through e.g. 5 rounds of 200m run, 12 Kettlebell swings, 8 ring rows, 8 burpees in 10mins.

For guys - see above

So basically you see bodyweight and kettlebell work as a regression of barbell work? As in once you can do a fairly solid heavy deadlift, squat and bench there's not much room for kettlebell or bodyweight work anymore unless for a specific purpose such as sports involvement of some sort?

Transform · 08-04-2014 9:21pm

Blacktie. wrote: »

So basically you see bodyweight and kettlebell work as a regression of barbell work? As in once you can do a fairly solid heavy deadlift, squat and bench there's not much room for kettlebell or bodyweight work anymore unless for a specific purpose such as sports involvement of some sort?

No they would still exist eg as part of warm ups, deload weeks, metcons, you just need to get the basics right first and some people can do that at right away

Hanley · 08-04-2014 10:40pm

Kettlebells are supremely effective strength and conditioning tools, most people just take it way too easy with them.

Go swing double 48s and tell me it doesn't count as strength work.

My core has never been as strong as when I was regularly snatching 40-44kg KBs for reps.

^^General comment re: KB useage and it's place in a program

cc87 · 08-04-2014 10:48pm

Blacktie. wrote: »

When discussing training there are a lot of different tools out there. You got barbell exercises, dumbbells, kettlebells and then there's bodyweight exercises as well. Can we get a discussion going on the merits of each system?

I can't think of any training/performance goal you couldn't achieve using only one of those tools. Some might be better than others at different areas but that's about it.

You can only use what you have available.

colman1212 · 09-04-2014 2:54am

Blacktie. wrote: »

When discussing training there are a lot of different tools out there. You got barbell exercises, dumbbells, kettlebells and then there's bodyweight exercises as well. Can we get a discussion going on the merits of each system?

They are all the different methods but essentially doing the same thing. shortening and lengthening a muscle.
I don't think its the actual tools you are using that define which one is better than another but they way that you use them.

For example a powerlifter , bodybuilder and rugby player will all use a barbell, but for different methods. A powerlifter is doing low reps trying to reach a maximum weight, a bodybuilder is trying to fatigue a particular muscle, a rugby player is doing explosive movements to replicate match situations.

I think the question should be more about how the tool is used, than what tool should be used.

Blacktie. · 09-04-2014 9:04am

colman1212 wrote: »

I think the question should be more about how the tool is used, than what tool should be used.

That's a good point. How is the tool most effectively used then.

I can see kettlebells being great conditioning tools alright. Barbells for strength. Bodyweight for warm up work (and possibly core work but haven't looked into this too much) and Dumbbells good for accessory work. This would be after some training to be able to handle a reasonable weight on each one and not just a total beginner I mean here. Or am I just mis interpreting and the progressions are important and can transfer any one tool to another purpose? Even if so some are more effective for specific purposes right?

I can't think of any training/performance goal you couldn't achieve using only one of those tools. Some might be better than others at different areas but that's about it.

Can you get big and ripped with bodyweight stuff? Extremely explosive with just dummbells... Maybe you can but it would take much more dedication than using the more effective tool for the job surely. It's the degree of some tools being better that interests me really.

LuckyLloyd · 09-04-2014 9:20am

Blacktie. wrote: »

Can you get big and ripped with bodyweight stuff? Extremely explosive with just dummbells... Maybe you can but it would take much more dedication than using the more effective tool for the job surely. It's the degree of some tools being better that interests me really.

I'd say gymnasts are pretty big and ripped or they certainly have a physique many men would like to have.

Dumbell cleans, dumbell snatches, dumbell thrusters...

Stench Blossoms wrote:

They all have their place but ultimately I think it's down to what you're goal is.

To be honest I don't think you've yet given a compelling reason to work beyond the first response you received in this thread. If your goal is X and there is no limitation on the equipment available you should pick the most appropriate tool and training program. If you have limitations you should adopt what's available as best you can.

Blacktie. · 09-04-2014 9:29am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'd say gymnasts are pretty big and ripped or they certainly have a physique many men would like to have.

Good point but isn't this after years and years of training from a very young age which quickly deteriorates after their peak.

Dumbell cleans, dumbell snatches, dumbell thrusters...

True

To be honest I don't think you've yet given a compelling reason to work beyond the first response you received in this thread. If your goal is X and there is no limitation on the equipment available you should pick the most appropriate tool and training program. If you have limitations you should adopt what's available as best you can.

That's true. With a single goal the focus can be obvious enough but what if we're talking about multiple goals. I guess you'd have to prioritise and something would have to take a hit. Jack of all trades master of none kind of deal.

LuckyLloyd · 09-04-2014 9:39am

Blacktie. wrote: »

That's true. With a single goal the focus can be obvious enough but what if we're talking about multiple goals. I guess you'd have to prioritise and something would have to take a hit. Jack of all trades master of none kind of deal.

http://www.crossfit.com/

I'm being a little smart I'll admit, but if one wants to do a bit of everything the idea exists out there and is fairly well refined. Leaving aside mainsite crossfit, there are plenty of places around the world that mix in all elements of training into a strong S & C general template.

The more specific your goals become the more specific your approach regarding tools and rep schemes, etc should become bearing in mind that experienced coaches will probably differ on the right approaches for certain things.

nice_guy80 · 09-04-2014 11:47am

Skipping

Cheap and very effective.
Yet, how many actually bother to do it?

Alf Veedersane · 09-04-2014 11:50am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Skipping

Cheap and very effective.
Yet, how many actually bother to do it?

Lately, i've been skipping skipping, if that counts...?

Mellor · 09-04-2014 11:51am

Hanley wrote: »

Kettlebells are supremely effective strength and conditioning tools, most people just take it way too easy with them.

Go swing double 48s and tell me it doesn't count as strength work.

+1 to the above.
When I was saying aerobics dancing about with a KB, I was talking about how they are usually used and not how they could be used. I'd love access to some KBs in the 36-65kg range.

rubadub · 09-04-2014 5:41pm

Blacktie. wrote: »

Can you get big and ripped with bodyweight stuff?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'd say gymnasts are pretty big and ripped

+1, there are loads of progressions you can do, not just adding weight via a dip belt which is then not really BW anymore.

I was surprised there were so many variations, most of which I am nowhere near capable of doing. I was up to maybe 36 regular dips at one stage but could still not do a single one of some variations. Now the movement might be quite different so its not just a matter of saying "I can deadlift 100kg for 20 reps so should be able for 2 at Xkg" and that translating to "I can do 36 dips so should do X of these right away"

Though in some recommendations you will see things like "if you can do 14 decent pullups you should be able for a muscleup", but there is often more skills/technique involved, like the false grip for muscleups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0mrC1c597c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPHy732TwEY

Inspector Coptoor · 09-04-2014 9:46pm

Mellor wrote: »

+1 to the above.
When I was saying aerobics dancing about with a KB, I was talking about how they are usually used and not how they could be used. I'd love access to some KBs in the 36-65kg range.

What can you do (effectively) with a 60kg + kb?
Farmers walks
Swings
Tbh, im struggling to see how you would get your moneys worth.

Ive swung a 40kg bell before in a con block, 30s on 30s off for say 10 mins. Great workout.
36,40,44kg bells fair enough.

After that, if you havent a hope of pressing it, snatching it or doing a C&J, i wouldnt buy one & i think thats why we dont see too msny heavier kbs knocking around

Hanley · 09-04-2014 10:53pm

"Gymnastics are big and ripped off bodyweight"

Translation;

"Go back in time, have rally good genetics, spend a decade+ training bodyweight progressions very frequently and you too could look like a gymnast"

I don't but gymnastic work as being good for hypertrophy.

I know a lot of jacked bodyweight guys. Most of th started out with external resistance and transitioned across.

Mellor · 10-04-2014 7:14am

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

What can you do (effectively) with a 60kg + kb?
Farmers walks
Swings
Tbh, im struggling to see how you would get your moneys worth.

Ive swung a 40kg bell before in a con block, 30s on 30s off for say 10 mins. Great workout.
36,40,44kg bells fair enough.

After that, if you havent a hope of pressing it, snatching it or doing a C&J, i wouldnt buy one & i think thats why we dont see too msny heavier kbs knocking around

Well, I did say access to, not buying one. So money’s worth isn’t really an issue. I’m considering a 24kg, that’s about it.
I don’t imagine I could do a whole lot with the 48+ KBs initially. But I’m a sucker for progression, and I like the idea of a goal other than 100 snatches @ 24kg in 5 mins – something strength based.

Anytime a thread on beginner strength training comes up, the old mantra low (3-5) reps to build strength is repeated. Yet this kinda goes out the window for KBs.
Swings with 40kg 30s on/off sounds like a good workout, but it’s still relatively moderate-high rep. Even if I could only manage a few swings with larger ones, I don’t consider it a bad thing, and for me I imagine there’s likely a carry over to wrestling and such.

To be clear, I’m not suggesting an entire strength program around massive KBs is practical. It’s not – that’s why we don’t see them. And barbells are practical, which is why they are used. I’m just saying I’d like it if I could occasional use KBs bigger than 32kg.

Transform · 10-04-2014 7:46pm

Hanley wrote: »

"Gymnastics are big and ripped off bodyweight"

Translation;

"Go back in time, have rally good genetics, spend a decade+ training bodyweight progressions very frequently and you too could look like a gymnast"

I don't but gymnastic work as being good for hypertrophy.

I know a lot of jacked bodyweight guys. Most of th started out with external resistance and transitioned across.

and i know many more bodyweight guys that have a set of abs and then think they are jacked because the got the abz

Doug Cartel · 10-04-2014 7:51pm

I think the average guy on the street probably has a very different idea of what constitutes "jacked" versus what the average body builder thinks, and that's probably different again to what someone in power lifting or strongman would think.

Transform · 10-04-2014 9:06pm

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I think the average guy on the street probably has a very different idea of what constitutes "jacked" versus what the average body builder thinks, and that's probably different again to what someone in power lifting or strongman would think.

agreed and 99% of people just want to feel and look THEIR best thus do some body weight or weighted movements with kettlebells

Different training methods

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